SitePoint播客＃153：与Luke Wroblewski一起进行移动优先

Episode 153 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week our regular interview host Louis Simoneau (@rssaddict) interviews Luke Wroblewski (@lukew), author of Mobile First by A Book Apart about what it means to design for mobile first, and why that is a winning approach for web designers.

SitePoint Podcast的第153集现已发布！ 本周，我们的定期采访主持人Louis Simoneau( @rssaddict )采访了Mobile First by A Book Apart的作者Luke Wroblewski( @lukew )，探讨了移动优先设计的意义，以及为什么这对网页设计师而言是一种成功的方法。

下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)

You can download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

您可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：

• SitePoint Podcast #153: Mobile First with Luke Wroblewski (MP3, 28:46, 27.6MB)

  SitePoint播客＃153：使用Luke Wroblewski进行移动优先 (MP3，28:46，27.6MB)

剧集摘要 (Episode Summary)

Louis and Luke cover how you design for mobile platforms first and how this can provide a real ‘focus’ to the content and layout which benefits the design for all platforms.

Louis和Luke讨论了如何首先为移动平台设计，以及如何为内容和布局提供真正的“焦点”，从而使所有平台的设计受益。

Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/153.

浏览http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/153上显示的参考链接的完整列表。

面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)

Louis: Hello and welcome to another episode of the SitePoint Podcast. Today on the show I’m very happy to have with us on the program Luke Wroblewski who’s an interaction designer and author based in the United States; hi, Luke.

路易斯：您好，欢迎收看SitePoint播客的另一集。 今天在节目中，我很高兴与我们一起参加节目Luke Wroblewski，他是美国的一位互动设计师和作家。 嗨，卢克。

Luke: Hey, how you doing?

卢克：嘿，你好吗？

Louis: Good, good, how are you?

路易斯：好，好，你好吗？

Luke: Great.

卢克：太好了。

Louis: So I wanted to have you on the show for some time now, I tried to get in touch with you a bit end of last year and finally managed to work out a schedule, and you’ve been pretty busy with conferences because you’re latest book came out at the end of last year.

路易斯：所以我想让你参加演出一段时间，去年年底我试图与您取得联系，最后设法制定了时间表，而您一直忙于召开会议，因为您最新的书是在去年年底出版的。

Luke: Yeah, that was around October I believe on A Book Apart.

卢克：是的，我相信那是十月左右。

Louis: Right. And so this is a book called Mobile First, and this is an idea you’ve been talking about for some time even before the book came out.

路易斯：对。 因此，这是一本名为《 Mobile First》的书，这是您甚至在这本书问世之前就一直在谈论的想法。

Luke: Yeah, several years now actually.

卢克：是的，实际上已经有几年了。

Louis: Right. And I guess it’s maybe reaching a more critical mass point now with mobile.

路易斯：对。 而且我想现在移动技术可能会达到一个更关键的点。

Luke: Yeah, absolutely, it’s several years ago back in 2008, 2009 timeframe there were very few people who took it very seriously, but now I think it’s almost the exact opposite in that there are very few people that aren’t giving it some attention.

卢克：是的，绝对是，这是几年前的2008年，即2009年的时间表，很少有人认真对待它，但是现在我认为这是完全相反的，因为很少有人不这样做注意。

Louis: Right. So we’ll have a lot of opportunity to talk about Mobile First and what you mean by that in detail, but we could start by just sort of defining what you mean when you say Mobile First, and that’s the name of the book, and that’s the idea you’ve been throwing out for some time. What exactly does that mean?

路易斯：对。 因此，我们将有很多机会详细讨论Mobile First及其含义，但是我们可以首先定义一下您说Mobile First时的含义，这就是本书的名称，并且这就是您已经抛弃一段时间的想法。 这到底是什么意思呢？

Luke: Yeah, so it’s pretty simple, basically it means working on the mobile version of your software products first. Traditionally we’ve sort of done it the opposite way, we do the desktop/laptop versions, if you will, and then mobile if teams thought about it at all, it was a significant afterthought.

卢克：是的，这很简单，基本上，这意味着首先要开发软件产品的移动版本。 传统上，我们会以相反的方式来完成它，如果您愿意的话，我们会做台式机/笔记本电脑的版本，如果团队完全考虑过，那么我们会进行移动的，这是很重要的事后思考。

Louis: Right, and so obviously this comes at a good time, and like we were saying before, mobile is exploding in growth now, so we can sort of see why teams would want to start doing more mobile, but, what do you see is really the advantage above and beyond just getting access to that traffic, because you could get access to that traffic by doing mobile second, right.

路易斯：对，显然这是个好时机，就像我们之前说过的那样，移动技术现在正在爆炸式增长，因此我们可以看到为什么团队希望开始做更多的移动技术，但是，您看到了什么除了获得访问量以外，这确实是优势，因为您可以通过正确的移动第二次访问访问该流量。

Luke: Hmm-mm.

卢克：嗯。

Louis: So what are the other reasons you suggest that people should go with mobile first.

路易斯：那么，您建议人们首先使用移动设备的其他原因是什么？

Luke: Yeah, so there’s essentially three pieces to the reasons why, one you touched on which is just this crazy growth we’re having, and I think people will begin to operate differently, for example, in Japan, Mixi, largest social network there, 85% of their traffic comes from mobile now, whereas 4 ½ years ago it was 14%. So you start to really prioritize things differently when 85% of your traffic is coming from a particular channel, and a number of the largest websites worldwide are how hitting that inflection point as well, so, Facebook 425 million out of 845 million total users now on mobile, Twitter’s around 55% mobile, and so you’re seeing this happen with a number of companies; I believe YouTube in the next year or two predicts they’re going to have a majority of traffic on mobile as well. And so when that happens that becomes a pretty easy prioritization. And for the companies that that hasn’t happened to you yet, you know if you look at Facebook and Twitter as sort of lead indicators, since these are the largest websites on the Internet, their overall traffic patterns start to reflect the overall Internet at some point, and so if you look at them as lead indicators then it’s likely to happen to you at some point as well.

卢克：是的，原因基本上有三点，您所谈到的只是我们正在经历的这一疯狂增长，我认为人们的经营方式将有所不同，例如在日本，最大的社交网络Mixi现在，他们的流量有85％来自移动设备，而4½年前是14％。 因此，当您的流量的85％来自某个特定渠道时，您便开始真正地对事情进行不同的优先排序，全球范围内许多最大的网站也都达到了这个拐点，因此，如今，在8.45亿总用户中，Facebook占4.25亿在移动设备上，Twitter约占55％的移动设备，因此您会发现许多公司都在发生这种情况； 我相信YouTube会在未来一两年内预测到，他们在移动设备上的流量也将占绝大部分。 因此，当发生这种情况时，就很容易确定优先级。 对于尚未发生在您身上的公司，您知道如果将Facebook和Twitter视为主要指标，由于它们是Internet上最大的网站，它们的整体访问量模式开始反映出Internet的整体情况。因此，如果您将它们视为先行指标，那么很可能也会在某个时候发生。

The other two reasons are the natural constraints of mobile, just sort of the human factors of having a portable device that has to fit in your pocket, so the screen has to be small, it has to work with spotty network connections so you can use it everywhere, it’s generally used with the fingers which are less precise pointing instruments because it makes sense to turn the entire screen into an interactive surface since it has to be portable and small, so all those constraints together are really good for overall design and ultimately business because they force you to prioritize and focus on the stuff that matters; there’s just not room for 50 navigation links like you have on a desktop web experience, there’s not bandwidth to waste on downloading huge images that provide no value. You have to get down to your core essence in order to actually make something usable on mobile.

其他两个原因是移动设备的自然限制，这是人为因素决定的因素，那就是必须将便携式设备放在口袋中，因此屏幕必须小巧，它必须与不固定的网络连接配合使用，这样您才可以使用它无处不在，通常使用手指而不是精确的指点工具，因为将整个屏幕变成交互式表面是有意义的，因为它必须轻便小巧，因此所有这些约束在一起对于整体设计确实非常有用，最终业务，因为它们迫使您优先考虑并专注于重要的事情； 就像您在台式机Web体验中一样，没有足够的空间容纳50个导航链接，没有浪费带宽来下载没有价值的巨大图像。 为了真正在移动设备上可用，您必须精打细算。

And the third piece is while there’s all these constraints, there’s also a lot of opportunities, and those opportunities come from the very unique capabilities that mobile has in that the average Smart Phone today can do a lot more than your desktop or laptop, it knows where you are up to ten meters of precision, it knows the direction you’re facing from a digital compass, it has things like ambient light sensors, it knows like how close it is to other devices through things like Bluetooth, and so all these capabilities together add up for a much richer tapestry of options, if you will; you’re not just counting on things like page layout and a mouse and keyboard input, you have a lot of other things at your disposal. And if you start with mobile first, not only do you have this sort of constraint to keep you focused, but you also have all this opportunity of these new interactions, that you can use, which you wouldn’t have if you looked at other devices first.

第三点是，尽管存在所有这些限制，但也存在很多机会，而这些机会来自移动设备的独特功能，因为当今智能手机的平均功能比台式机或笔记本电脑要强大得多。您可以达到十米的精度，它可以从数字罗盘知道您要面对的方向，它具有诸如环境光传感器之类的东西，可以通过蓝牙之类的东西知道它与其他设备的距离，等等。如果可能的话，功能加在一起就构成了更丰富的选择范围。 您不仅要指望页面布局和鼠标和键盘输入之类的东西，还需要处理很多其他事情。 而且，如果您首先从移动设备入手，不仅有这种约束可以使您集中精力，而且还可以利用所有这些新的交互机会，这些机会可以使用，而如果再看看其他的则没有设备优先。

Louis: Right. But I can imagine for a lot of designers those two factors would kind of play against each other, because some people might get carried away with all of the new capabilities and sort of lost part of the focus that they gained as a result of this restricted screen space and all of that.

路易斯：对。 但是我可以想象，对于很多设计师来说，这两个因素可能会相互影响，因为有些人可能会被所有新功能所迷惑，并且由于这种限制而失去了部分注意力屏幕空间等等。

Luke: Yeah, I think it’s a different kind of gain/loss I mean, right, it’s still a visible interface, and that visible interface still has a set number of pixels within which to work.

卢克：是的，我认为这是另一种增益/损耗，对，它仍然是可见界面，并且该可见界面仍具有一定数量的像素，可以在其中工作。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: So that’s really more around information density/UI complexity. Where now it definitely is possible for you to go crazy and push all the complexity to like, you know, you can only shake the phone three times to get it to do something, or turn it to the left, and you go overboard on the capabilities, you can certainly do that. But I don’t think necessarily those capabilities alleviate some of the constraints that come with the device, right, it’s like both things are present, the constraints are there and the capabilities are there.

卢克：所以实际上更多地是关于信息密度/ UI复杂性。 现在绝对可以让您发疯，将所有复杂性推向顶峰，您知道，您只能摇动手机三下才能使其执行某项操作，或者将其向左旋转，然后您就会过度使用功能，您当然可以做到。 但是我认为这些功能不一定能减轻设备带来的一些限制，对，就像同时存在两种事物，存在约束和存在功能一样。

Louis: Right. And this is something that obviously designers and interaction designers and people who think about this a lot have been evangelizing for a long time the idea of really prioritizing what’s important and not cluttering websites. But I guess in your view now that there’s a business case for developing for mobile you can push that agenda more effectively to business stakeholders.

路易斯：对。 显然，这是设计师和交互设计师以及对此进行了很多思考的人们宣传的很长时间了，即真正优先考虑重要内容而不使网站混乱。 但我想您现在认为，有一个针对移动设备开发的业务案例，您可以将该议程更有效地推送给业务利益相关者。

Luke: Yeah, I mean there’s actual physical constraints now, right.

卢克：是的，我的意思是，现在实际存在身体上的限制。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: Before you could say, oh, just add another link, there’s room (laughter), now there physically isn’t room, so you sometimes have to have those hard conversations, right.

卢克：您可以说，哦，只需添加另一个链接，就有房间(笑声)，现在实际上没有房间了，所以有时您必须进行艰苦的对话，对。

Louis: Yeah.

路易斯：是的。

Luke: Like, look, I’d love to add your 15th feature, but where’s it gonna go, it can’t go in here, there’s just no room. And somebody once gave me the metaphor that desktop websites or just sort of traditional websites are kind of like carp in a bathtub, that is, if you keep feeding it it’ll continue to grow to fill the amount of space it has available.

卢克：看起来，我很想添加您的第15个功能，但是它要去哪里，不能在这里进入，只有空间了。 有人曾经给我一个比喻，即桌面网站或只是一些传统网站都像是在浴缸里的鲤鱼，也就是说，如果继续喂食它，它将继续增长，以填补其可用空间。

Louis: Yep.

路易斯：是的 。

Luke: And same sort of thing, you know, these things keep getting filled and filled until there’s no room left, and then some poor sap shows up there from a Google search or a Twitter link or something and they’re just overwhelmed by the sheer volume of choice and content, and ultimately they end up doing nothing.

卢克：同样的事情，你知道，这些事情不断地被填满，直到没有剩余的空间，然后在Google搜索或Twitter链接之类的地方出现了一些可怜的树汁，而它们却被这些东西淹没了。大量的选择和内容，最终他们最终无所作为。

Louis: Right. So when you say mobile first, if a team is developing a website, say, and they start with the mobile version, and then how do you expand out from that into the desktop version without necessarily, well, preserving the benefits you’ve gained from that constraint? Like what’s the process that you use or that you’d recommend for making that evolution from the mobile into say the desktop version.

路易斯：对。 因此，当您首先说移动设备时，例如，如果一个团队正在开发一个网站，并且他们从移动版本开始，然后您如何将其从移动版本扩展到桌面版本，而不必很好地保留所获得的收益从那个约束？ 就像您使用什么过程或建议将其从移动版演变为台式机版的过程一样。

Luke: Yeah, I’d make the prioritization conversation that has to happen in order to fit things on mobile devices explicit, right, I’d involve people and I’d write it down, and I don’t think the prioritization of what services or information you’re providing for your customers changes just because the screen changed.

卢克：是的，我会进行一次优先级对话，以使移动设备上的内容适应需要，对，我会参与进来，并将其写下来，我不认为优先级是什么您为客户提供的服务或信息会因为屏幕的变化而改变。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: So your core value is the same across whatever device people are using to access your service. And once you get agreement on that and you write it down and everybody’s sort of signed off, then keep using that, right, don’t just toss it aside and say, okay, that was only the mobile thing, like make — sort of abstract that out from the mobile design process and have it be this is the prioritization of what we do and why, right, and that applies everywhere. And then when you move, when you get more into the tactical bits, and that’s sort of at the strategic high-level, when you get more into the tactical bits, Ethan Marcotte who coined the phrase “Responsive Web Design,” sort of put that philosophy together, has recently been talking about layout as an enhancement; I think that’s a nice way to think about it, which is if you get more screen space available to you in a different situation, well, that’s an opportunity to enhance your core value offering, right, it’s not an opportunity to change your core value and offering, it’s an opportunity to make it a bit better with some additional maybe features or information or whatever you can bring to bear on a larger screen.

卢克：因此，无论人们使用哪种设备访问您的服务，您的核心价值都是相同的。 当您就此达成协议并将其写下来，并且大家都同意后，再继续使用它，对，不要把它丢到一边，然后说，好吧，那只是移动的东西，例如make –从移动设计流程中抽象出来，而这正是我们要做的事情的优先顺序，原因，正确和适用于所有地方。 然后，当您移动时，当您对战术方面有更多的了解时，这在战略高层，当您对战术方面有所了解时，Ethan Marcotte就创造了短语“响应式Web设计”，这种哲学最近一直在谈论布局作为一种增强； 我认为这是考虑的一种好方法，也就是说，如果您在不同情况下有更多可用的屏幕空间，那么，这是增强核心价值产品的机会，对，这不是改变核心价值的机会。和产品，这是一个机会，可以通过一些附加的功能或信息或任何您可以在大屏幕上使用的功能来使其变得更好。

Louis: Right. Obviously that’s a big shift for a lot of web designers and people who’ve been in this industry for a while. Everyone has this mentality of when you start to design a website you work out a layout and you work out a grid, and people have been thinking in this way for a long time. So, how do you think that the transition is going, do you see like a lot of smaller agencies are moving as rapidly as they could be to mobile, or is it still something that people struggle with.

路易斯：对。 显然，对于许多Web设计师和从事此行业一段时间的人员来说，这是一个巨大的转变。 每个人都有这样的心态：当您开始设计网站时，您要设计一个布局并制定一个网格，并且人们已经以这种方式思考了很长时间。 因此，您如何看待过渡的过程，您是否认为许多小型机构正朝着移动方向快速发展，还是人们仍在为之苦苦挣扎的事情。

Luke: I think it’s something that people are very interested in now, so the demand is there. I think it’s something that a lot of people don’t have deep experience in yet because they can’t, right, I mean the sort of modern mobile web instantiation is, I don’t know, like three or four years old, meaning having very capable web browsers on sophisticated mobile devices, so not a lot of people have experience with it, so what they tend to do is bring over what they knew from their previous modes of operations to this new form of media, right. And anytime you do that, whether it’s the transition from radio to TV, or the transition from, I don’t know, cinema to TV, whatever types of adjustment we’re talking about, the general tendency is for people to copy what they know, and then gradually try a few new things until finally they really figure out what works in that new space. And so we are at the early stage of that transition, and I think you have a few spot examples of people really figuring out what mobile’s great at and nailing it, but that’s definitely not the norm yet.

卢克：我认为人们现在对此很感兴趣，因此需求就在那里。 我认为这是很多人没有的丰富经验，因为他们不能，对，我的意思是，现代移动Web实例的类型，我不知道，就像三，四岁一样，这意味着在复杂的移动设备上拥有功能强大的Web浏览器，因此没有多少人有使用它的经验，所以他们倾向于做的就是将他们从以前的操作模式中学到的知识带到这种新型媒体上。 无论何时，无论是从广播到电视的转换，还是从电影院到电视的转换(我不知道)，无论我们说的是哪种调整类型，人们普遍倾向于复制自己的内容。知道，然后逐渐尝试一些新事物，直到最终他们真正弄清楚在这个新领域中起作用的事物。 因此，我们正处在过渡的初期，我认为您有一些真实的例子，人们真正弄清楚了移动技术的优点并加以钉牢，但这绝对不是规范。

Louis: Right. So what are some examples in your mind of people that have done a great job with this, some inspiration?

路易斯：对。 那么，在您的脑海中，有哪些举世无双的榜样呢？

Luke: Sure, so as a comparison point I like to compare like Flickr’s mobile web experience to Instagram’s mobile web experience.

卢克：当然，作为比较点，我想将Flickr的移动网络体验与Instagram移动网络体验进行比较。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: So Flickr is something that grew up on the desktop Internet, and when you go their mobile website the whole thing is just filled with menus, and you have a whole bunch of choices, and you go in submenus, and it’s very reflective of taking all the stuff they had on the desktop and condensing it down to fit on these smaller screens. Whereas Instagram, which a service that went from zero users to 12 million in 12 months with just an IOS app, they made it all about the speed at which you can take a photo, make it look okay and share it, right, which is things that these devices are great at; you snap a picture, you want to get it out to some people, you want it to look good, they made that as fast as they possibly could, and they continue to work on making it faster. They also don’t start the experience with a whole bunch of navigation menus and things like that; they just fill the page with a stream of photos. And that aligns, again, with how people use devices, because you’re kind of bored, you want to see some interesting things, you pop it up, bam, there’s a bunch of photos, you just flick your finger and you’re looking at a whole bunch of cool things.

卢克：所以Flickr是在桌面Internet上长大的，当您访问他们的移动网站时，整个过程只包含菜单，并且您有很多选择，并且进入子菜单，这很能反映出拿走他们在台式机上拥有的所有内容，然后将其压缩以适合这些较小的屏幕。 Instagram是一项服务，仅使用IOS应用程序即可在12个月内将用户从零增加到1200万，而Instagram则充分体现了您拍摄照片的速度，看起来不错并可以共享的速度，对，这些设备擅长的事情； 您拍摄一张照片，想要将其发布给某些人，您希望它看起来不错，他们尽可能快地做到了这一点，并且他们继续致力于使其更快。 他们也不会从大量的导航菜单和类似的东西开始体验。 他们只是用一堆照片填充页面。 而且，这再次与人们使用设备的方式保持一致，因为您有点无聊，您想看到一些有趣的东西，将其弹出，ba，有很多照片，您只要轻弹手指，看着一大堆很酷的东西。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: And so I think they’ve aligned with how people use these devices and tried to really work within the constraints and the capabilities of them, and I think it’s paid off tremendously.

卢克：所以我认为它们已经与人们使用这些设备的方式保持一致，并试图在它们的约束和功能内真正发挥作用，并且我认为这是巨大的回报。

Louis: Right. And so in that sense we’re looking at something which is on the one hand a mobile application which was developed natively; and Flickr’s mobile experience is largely through a mobile website.

路易斯：对。 因此，从某种意义上讲，我们正在研究的东西一方面是本地开发的移动应用程序； Flickr的移动体验主要是通过移动网站实现的。

Luke: Although they did have a couple iterations of apps as well.

卢克：尽管他们确实也有一些应用程序的迭代。

Louis: Right. I guess my question was going to be how do you feel on that sort of interplay, you know, a lot of agencies are at a point where they kind of have to decide whether they want to specialize in doing mobile web or doing native development, and likewise any kind of a client who’s looking at a new mobile presence has to make that decision as well. What’s your take on when that’s a good idea or which of those choices to go for?

路易斯：对。 我想我的问题是，您会如何看待这种相互作用，您知道，许多代理商正处在这一点上，他们必须决定自己想专门从事移动网络还是本机开发，同样，正在寻找新的移动业务存在的任何类型的客户也必须做出该决定。 当这是一个好主意时您会采取什么选择？

Luke: Yeah, I think it boils down to what your primary goal is for that effort. So the mobile web experience still remains the best way to provide access across all the platforms; it isn’t currently the best way to necessarily tap into what the devices can do, right, you are not going to get full potential of all of the capabilities of a decent Smart Phone right now inside the web browser, for that you have to build things natively. That said, if you build natively you’re not going to get the advantage of being on every single platform since every platform has a decent web browser now.

卢克：是的，我认为这可以归结为您的主要目标。 因此，移动Web体验仍然仍然是在所有平台上提供访问的最佳方法。 目前，这并不是最好地利用设备功能的最佳方法，对，您现在无法在网络浏览器中充分发挥像样的智能手机的所有功能，因为您必须本地构建事物。 就是说，如果您是本机构建的，那么您将无法获得在每个平台上使用的优势，因为每个平台现在都具有不错的Web浏览器。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: So there’s pros and cons, and what I think the emergent strategy is will create the mobile web experience for access, so people following email links, people following social network links, just people opening their web browser and doing a search can have a decent experience in the browser, and then we’re gonna use native applications when we really think the technology can be — can make our core offering either faster, easier or different from what we can do in the browser, and if that’s compelling enough then we’ll go invest the time and effort into making a native app.

卢克：因此，这是有利有弊，我认为这种新兴策略将为访问提供移动网络体验，因此，关注电子邮件链接的人，关注社交网络链接的人，仅打开Web浏览器并进行搜索的人都可以拥有体面的浏览器体验，然后在我们真正认为该技术可行的情况下使用本机应用程序-可以使我们的核心产品更快，更轻松或与我们在浏览器中可以提供的功能有所不同，如果这足以吸引人，那么我们将花费时间和精力来制作本机应用程序。

Louis: Right. So you kind of see a well-designed mobile web presence as sort of a baseline that’s a requirement just because, again, as you said, email links or links from various sources, when it pops open on the device you want that to be a good experience that gives the user a clear vision of what your product is about.

路易斯：对。 因此，您会认为设计良好的移动网络状态只是一种基准，这只是因为正如您所说，再次是电子邮件链接或来自各种来源的链接，当它在设备上弹出时，您希望它是良好的体验，使用户对您的产品有一个清晰的认识。

Luke: Yep. And then the other sort of sad reality of native apps is it takes a lot of work to get that download from people, and just because you get that download doesn’t mean you’re going to have ongoing use, right. The magic number as I’ve heard it in a number of studies is around seven apps, which is how many apps people use regularly on their phone.

卢克：是的 。 然后，本机应用程序的另一种可悲的现实是，要从人们那里下载该文件需要花费大量的工作，而仅仅因为您获得了该下载文件并不意味着您会一直在使用它。 我在许多研究中听到的神奇数字大约是七个应用程序，这是人们经常在手机上使用的应用程序数量。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: And then you have a whole slew of like 25% of the apps people download only get opened once and never get opened again, and only a quarter of them get opened more than 11 times, that means everybody else is just sitting there in the in-between zone, right.

卢克：然后，您下载的应用程序中有大约25％只能被打开一次，再也不会被打开，其中只有四分之一被打开超过11次，这意味着其他所有人都坐在那里中间区域，对。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: And so it’s a lot of development time and effort just to get one open after you’ve worked so hard to get them to download it. Whereas on the websites people will access links all the darn time, in fact, they go to 24 different websites a day on a Smart Phone.

卢克：因此，在您辛苦地让他们下载它之后，要开放一个就需要大量的开发时间和精力。 人们在网站上将始终访问链接，事实上，他们每天使用智能手机访问24个不同的网站。

Louis: Right. So you brought up a lot of stats in that answer, and I guess that’s a big part of your approach to this kind of design is to really drill down into the numbers and figure out what people are actually doing, is that accurate?

路易斯：对。 因此，您在该答案中提出了很多统计数据，我想这是您进行此类设计的很大一部分方法是真正深入研究数字并弄清楚人们在做什么，这是准确的吗？

Luke: I think you have to have an awareness of what you’re dealing with, otherwise you’re flying a bit blind, and it’s very possible for people to have these romantic notions of I’ll build a native app and everything will be great, right, whereas the reality of it — and, you know, these numbers I think they just help to illustrate the point, because if I were to ask the average person about their usage of native applications on their Smart Phone they would all tell me the same kind of story, right, which is there’s a couple apps I use all the time, and then there’s a whole bunch that just sit there and I never use them; you sort of don’t need stats to say that because everybody’s doing it anyhow, but it does help make it more visible what’s really going through the data.

卢克：我认为您必须了解所处理的内容，否则您会有点盲目，人们很有可能拥有这些浪漫的观念，例如我将构建本机应用程序，并且一切都会很好，是事实，而这些数字我想它们只是在说明这一点，因为如果我要问普通人他们在智能手机上使用本机应用程序的情况，他们都会告诉我的故事也一样，是的，我一直都在使用几个应用程序，然后有一堆只坐在那里，而我却从未使用过。 您几乎不需要统计数据就可以这么说，因为每个人都在这样做，但是它确实有助于使它更清晰地显示数据中的实际情况。

Louis: Right. And it also prevents the sort of rationalization, you know, oh, I might only use seven apps, but our app people are gonna want to use, whereas if you actually have the data it’s a little bit harder to come out against it.

路易斯：对。 而且它也阻止了合理化，您知道，哦，我可能只使用七个应用程序，但是我们的应用程序人员将要使用，而如果您实际拥有数据，则很难再反对它。

Luke: Yeah, it’s not just you, right.

卢克：是的，不只是您，对。

Louis: (Laughs)

路易斯：(笑)

Luke: It’s kind of the general use of these things.

卢克：这些东西的一般用法。

Louis: And do you take that approach when starting a new project to do a lot of research and get a lot of data about, for example, the website’s existing users or things like that before you even launch into thinking about what the approach is?

路易斯：在开始一个新项目进行大量研究并获得有关网站现有用户之类的大量数据时，您是否采取了这种方法？甚至在开始思考该方法是什么之前？

Luke: I think it helps to be as informed as possible. It’s very easy to come up with solutions for things, I think it’s a lot harder to actually take the time to understand the problems thoroughly; the more you understand the problem the more the right solution sort of emerges naturally.

卢克：我认为尽可能地了解情况会有所帮助。 提出解决方案非常容易，我认为要花时间彻底理解问题要困难得多。 您越了解问题，自然就会出现正确的解决方案。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: But most people are likely just to go jump right into answers, right, and so I like to have as much of a handle on the problem as possible rather than just getting into answers right away.

卢克：但是大多数人很可能会直接进入答案，正确，所以我希望尽可能多地处理问题，而不是立即获得答案。

Louis: Right. You talked a little bit earlier about Ethan Marcotte’s Responsive Web Design strategy, and that’s definitely gotten a lot of attention in the web design community in the past say year or so, and you’ve talked a little bit about the tradeoffs of that, and you’ve also talked about a strategy that incorporates some elements of server side code into a responsive technique, do you want to talk a bit about that?

路易斯：对。 您之前谈到了Ethan Marcotte的响应式Web设计策略，并且在过去大约一年左右的时间里，Web设计社区肯定引起了很多关注，并且您还谈到了一些折衷方案，并且您还讨论了将服务器端代码的某些元素合并到响应技术中的策略，您是否想谈一谈？

Luke: Sure. So I’m not one of these people who thinks there’s only one way to do things, and I know Ethan isn’t either, so we both believe that there’s a time and place for everything, whereas other folks kind of jump the gun, if you will, and say this is the only way to do everything. I think it comes from, you know, especially in Responsive Web Design, if you’re a front-end web developer it’s a very tempting solution for you because it uses what you know already, and if you’re uncomfortable with the server then, yeah, Responsive Web Design sounds amazing to you because you never have to touch a server. But the reality is there’s certain things that each does well, and that’s probably more important, meaning it’s probably more important to understand what each one is good at and take advantage of it rather than clinging to the one that fits in with your world view. And the way I’ve been kind of trying to help people through that — because the other thing to look it, if you look at all the largest web companies out there, currently they’re not using Responsive Web Design; they’re all optimizing things with separate templates, right.

卢克：当然。 因此，我不是那种认为只有一种做事方式的人，而且我知道Ethan也不是，所以我们俩都相信所有事物都有时间和地点，而其他人则乐于助人，如果愿意，并说这是做所有事情的唯一方法。 我认为它来自(尤其是在响应式Web设计中)，如果您是前端Web开发人员，那么这对您来说是一个非常诱人的解决方案，因为它使用了您已经知道的知识，并且如果您对服务器不满意，那么，是的，响应式Web设计对您来说听起来很棒，因为您不必触摸服务器。 但是现实是，每件事情都有某些事情做得很好，这可能更重要，这意味着了解每个人擅长的事物并加以利用可能比紧贴适合您的世界观的事情更为重要。 而且，我一直试图通过这种方式来帮助人们-因为另一方面，如果您查看所有最大的Web公司，那么他们目前没有在使用响应式Web设计。 他们都在用单独的模板优化事情，对。

Louis: Yep.

路易斯：是的 。

Luke: And so you kind of say, hmm, well why are they doing that? And part of what I’ve been trying to make sure people understand is some of the reasons why they would do that, right, and when you understand those reasons then you can say, okay, well that makes sense for me or it doesn’t make sense for me. And the big thing that a separate approach gives you is the ability to optimize like hell for any particular device class, you know, your downloads, your interactions, even things like the markup source order, URL structure, all that, if you’re gonna say, hey, this is this particular type of device and serve something different then you get to optimize like crazy. But you do have to, and this is kind of the hard part of it, you have to know what device is hitting you so you can serve the right thing, and if you’re wrong you can come up with problems. Whereas Responsive Web Design you can’t necessarily optimize as strongly because you’re serving the same stuff to everything, and you’re basically saying hey device you figure out where you are and use what you need from all the stuff I’m giving you.

卢克：所以你说，嗯，为什么他们要这么做呢？ 我一直试图确保人们理解的部分原因是他们会这样做的一些原因，对，当您理解这些原因后，您可以说，好吧，这对我来说很有意义，或者没有。对我来说没有道理。 而且，单独的方法为您提供的最大好处是能够针对任何特定设备类进行优化，如地狱，您知道下载，交互，甚至标记源顺序，URL结构之类的东西，如果您会说，嘿，这是这种特殊类型的设备，提供了与众不同的功能，然后您会疯狂地进行优化。 但是您必须这样做，这是其中的难点，您必须知道什么设备在撞击您，以便您能够提供正确的服务，如果您错了，则可以提出问题。 响应式Web设计您不一定会进行如此强大的优化，因为您要为所有内容提供相同的内容，并且您基本上是在说嘿设备可以弄清楚您的位置并使用我提供的所有内容中的所需内容您。

Louis: Right. So your approach, or the approach that you’ve talked about a little bit of Responsive Web Design with a server side element, kind of tries to bridge the gap between those two approaches.

路易斯：对。 因此，您的方法，或者您已经讨论过的带有服务器端元素的响应式Web设计的方法，都试图弥合这两种方法之间的差距。

Luke: Yeah, so it tries to do a bit of the things that are good, it uses the adaptive layouts and images and media queries aspect of a Responsive Web Design to adjust from a layout perspective, screen size perspective, but then it uses the server for where you want to optimize specific components. So let’s say you want to send small images down to mobile devices, and you want to send the big images to large screen devices or widescreen TV type devices, that’s the piece that you would put on a server and use device detection to change, but for layout you’d still use the same Responsive Web Design techniques.

卢克：是的，因此它尝试做一些不错的事情，它使用自适应Web设计的自适应布局，图像和媒体查询方面从布局角度，屏幕尺寸角度进行调整，但随后使用了您要在其中优化特定组件的服务器。 因此，假设您要将小图像发送到移动设备，并且要将大图像发送到大屏幕设备或宽屏电视类型的设备，这就是您要放在服务器上并使用设备检测进行更改的部分，但是对于布局，您仍将使用相同的响应式Web设计技术。

Louis: And so that’s doing the device detection on the server side, you’re not using JavaScript to suss things out and then request the resources?

路易斯：这样就在服务器端进行设备检测，您不是在使用JavaScript来处理事情，然后请求资源吗？

Luke: Yeah, no, they’re using it on the server side, and the general idea is send the device only what it needs as opposed to asking the device to take everything and then figure out what it should show or shouldn’t show or how it should show it using things like JavaScript.

卢克：是的，不，他们在服务器端使用它，通常的想法是只向设备发送所需的东西，而不是要求设备拿走所有东西，然后弄清楚它应该显示或不应该显示什么或如何使用JavaScript之类的方式显示它。

Louis: Right. So are you generally opposed to the idea of doing this kind of JavaScript detection, or is it just something you don’t prefer as much?

路易斯：对。 因此，您是否通常反对进行这种JavaScript检测的想法，还是只是您不喜欢这种方法？

Luke: I’m not as religious about it as other people are, there are some people who are very anti-user agent string detection, I understand some of the problems with it for sure. With the kind of combined approach of Responsive Web Design plus the server side stuff, which I call the REST, Responsive Web Design plus server side components, you’re doing it at a component level so there’s less potential to do bad, you’re not gonna totally go redirect and change the entire UI, you’re going to just adjust some pieces of it.

卢克：我不像其他人那样虔诚，有些人非常反用户代理字符串检测，我可以肯定地理解它的一些问题。 通过将响应式Web设计和服务器端内容(我称为REST)，响应式Web设计和服务器端组件相结合的方法，您可以在组件级别上进行操作，因此做坏事的可能性较小，不会完全重定向并更改整个UI，您只需要调整其中的一些内容即可。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: And there’s failsafes, meaning you put in some safe defaults so that if you are wrong you’re not going to destroy things, right.

卢克：还有故障保护功能，这意味着您设置了一些安全的默认值，这样，如果您错了，就不会破坏东西，对。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: You’re just going to maybe get a smaller image, and the default is going to be a safe default for the lower-end devices, and so worst case scenario the big picture device sees a smaller image but they still see an image, right, just the resolution’s a bit lower.

卢克：您可能会得到一个较小的图像，而默认设置将是低端设备的安全默认设置，因此在最坏的情况下，大图片设备会看到较小的图像，但他们仍然会看到图像，对，只是分辨率要低一点。

Louis: And, again, that’s one of those situations where it makes sense to start from the mobile device as a baseline, because even a mobile site on a full size screen is usable.

路易斯：同样，这是从移动设备作为基准开始的情况之一，因为即使是全尺寸屏幕上的移动站点也可以使用。

Luke: Yeah, exactly. It’ll be usable, it just won’t be as — and that’s the thing with the safe defaults, right, what you’re really taking the hit on is optimization, it just wouldn’t optimize to the extent that it would if you were right with the device you detected.

卢克：是的，确实如此。 这将是可用的，而不会是这样-这就是安全默认值的问题，对，您真正受到冲击的是优化，它不会在某种程度上进行优化您使用的设备正确。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: And, again, I am personally less afraid of being wrong in some of those places, provided there’s a default and provided it’s at a component level, I think that sort of not stuns, but it reduces the angst many people have around device detection solutions.

卢克：同样，我个人不害怕在某些地方犯错，只要有默认值，并且它是在组件级别，我认为这不是眩晕，但它减轻了许多人对设备的忧虑检测解决方案。

Louis: Right. How do you feel about the way that the mobile browser’s evolving? Because it seems like some aspects of current mobile device development are a little stunted by the fact that the upgrade path is maybe a little slower than it has been on the desktop, at least in recent years since we’ve had a rekindling of some sort of browser war. But I guess maybe on mobile because people actually have to go out and replace the device a lot of times, there’s not a clear upgrade path; it makes for a much more fragmented support playfield.

路易斯：对。 您如何看待移动浏览器的发展方式？ 因为当前的移动设备开发的某些方面似乎有点受制于以下事实：升级路径可能比台式机要慢一些，至少在最近几年，因为我们已经进行了某种重新启动浏览器之战。 但是我想也许是在移动设备上，因为人们实际上不得不多次更换设备，没有明确的升级途径。 这使得支持战场更加零散。

Luke: The thing that I’m actually more concerned with is the fact that the mobile browser is just falling behind in terms of support, right, I mean you can’t even upload a photo using a mobile web browser right now outside of Android 3+.

卢克：我实际上更关心的是，移动浏览器在支持方面一直落后，是的，我的意思是，您现在甚至无法使用移动网络浏览器在Android之外上传照片3+。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: A tiny fraction of the handsets that are out there. So I’m more worried about getting those sorts of features that just brings — even that just brings the mobile browser to parity with the desktop browser, right, you’ve been able to upload photos on a desktop for years upon years. So that’s a little bit more concerning to me. In certain other areas the mobile browsers are kind of ahead of a lot of the situations we have to deal with on a desktop, meaning they got pretty decent CSS3 support, they have great HTML5 support, depending on where you look, right. So in some ways they’re ahead of the game, in other ways, especially in relation to how they interact with the mobile OS they’re pretty far behind. And it’s kind of concerning because that pushes people to go to native apps in places where maybe the only reason they’re going there is so they can do photo uploads.

卢克：只有一小部分手机在外面。 因此，我更担心要获得这些功能，即使这些功能只是使移动浏览器与台式机浏览器处于同等地位，对，您已经能够将照片上传到台式机上很多年了。 因此，这让我感到更加担忧。 在某些其他领域，移动浏览器比我们不得不在台式机上处理的许多情况都要先进，这意味着它们获得了相当不错CSS3支持，它们具有强大HTML5支持，具体取决于您的外观。 因此，它们在某些方面领先于游戏，在其他方面则尤其如此，尤其是在它们与移动操作系统交互方面，它们远远落后于游戏。 这有点令人担忧，因为这促使人们在他们唯一要去的地方去本地应用程序，以便他们可以上传照片。

Louis: Right. Coming back to sort of what I was saying, it’s more difficult for the innovation to happen because the browser’s just sort of what’s on your phone when you get it, and until you get a new phone that’s what you’re gonna use.

路易斯：对。 回到我刚才说的那样，创新很难实现，因为浏览器就像手机上的东西，直到您拿到为止，直到您得到要使用的新手机为止。

Luke: Well, I don’t know exactly how true that is because at least in the IOS world, right, the amount of people who upgrade the OS with which the new browser comes is very high.

卢克：嗯，我不完全知道那是真的，因为至少在IOS世界中，对，升级使用新浏览器的操作系统的人数很多。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: You have a lot more fragmentation in the Android space, wherein like if iOS was Android the iPad3 would be supporting IOS 3.2, sort of illustrated by example, instead of IOS 5 or 6 or whatever it’s gonna support. There are definitely platforms where the fragmentation is a bigger deal and the OS’ don’t get updated very frequently, but then there are also OS’ like iOS where the updates come pretty regularly and the vast majority of people get them and they do get that new browser. That said, there are a lot more browsers than there are desktop browsers, and if you’re really gonna do the full rigor and test on everything you do have your work cut out for you for sure.

卢克：您在Android领域有更多的支离破碎，例如，如果iOS是Android，则iPad3将支持IOS 3.2(举例说明)，而不是IOS 5或6或它将支持的版本。 肯定有一些平台的碎片问题比较大，并且操作系统的更新不是很频繁，但是还有像iOS这样的操作系统，它们的更新非常定期，并且绝大多数人都可以得到并且他们确实得到了该新的浏览器。 就是说，浏览器比台式机浏览器多得多，如果您真的要进行全面的严格测试，然后对您所做的所有事情进行测试，那么您肯定会为您做好工作。

Louis: Right. In your work do you do a lot of device testing on a slew of platforms?

路易斯：对。 在您的工作中，您是否需要在多种平台上进行大量设备测试？

Luke: You know, I am a prioritization kind of guy, as we were talking about earlier, of the data; I look at what the biggest ones are and make sure there’s a great experience there and try and build that in a way that has fallbacks, so I’m not the person to go test on every single device and make sure it works everywhere, sort of like a recipe for badness to a certain extent.

卢克：您知道，正如我们之前所说，我是一个优先考虑的人。 我查看最大的组件是什么，并确保那里有很棒的经验，并尝试以一种可回退的方式来构建它，所以我不是要在每个设备上进行测试并确保它可以在任何地方使用，进行分类的人在某种程度上就像是不良食谱。

Louis: Yeah.

路易斯：是的。

Luke: But, that said, I will be — I do test on the devices that I think matter, because there’s a world of difference between what you see in like an emulator on your laptop of desktop than what you actually see on the phone in your hand.

卢克：但是，我会的-我会在我认为重要的设备上进行测试，因为您在台式机笔记本电脑上看到的像模拟器一样，与在手机上实际看到的东西之间存在很大的差异你的手。

Louis: Yeah, and in terms of obviously the way you interact with it, that’s one of the areas where the gap can be huge.

路易斯：是的，就您与之互动的方式而言，这显然是差距很大的领域之一。

Luke: Yep, interaction. And even just the screen density, the overall kind of ergonomics of that phone, all that stuff really changed; something that could look good on the screen in terms of font size and layout and things like that, you put on the phone and it looks like crap.

卢克：是的 ，互动。 甚至只是屏幕密度，手机的整体人体工程学，所有这些东西都发生了变化。 就字体大小和布局而言，在屏幕上看起来不错的东西，诸如此类，您放在手机上看起来就像胡扯。

Louis: Right. Maybe just to close off, what’s your vision of the way this is going to play out? I know you bring out a lot of statistics about the growth of mobile.

路易斯：对。 也许只是关闭，您对这种播放方式有何看法？ 我知道您带来了许多有关移动设备增长的统计数据。

Luke: Hmm-mm.

卢克：嗯。

Louis: Do you think that there’s a point in the future where there’ll be sort of a balance of what people do on mobile versus what they do on the desktop, because it feels like right now things are very much in flux because mobile is growing so much. What’s your vision for what’s going to happen over the next three or four years? I know everyone hates those kinds of questions, but —

路易斯：您认为将来是否存在人们在移动设备上所做的事情与在台式机上所做的事情之间取得某种平衡的感觉，因为现在感觉事情在不断变化，因为移动设备正在增长如此之多。 您对未来三到四年将发生的事情有何看法？ 我知道每个人都讨厌这样的问题，但是-

Luke: Hey, if I knew I wouldn’t be talking to you right now, right, I’d be off making it. At a high-level I look at things that seem to be kind of inevitable, you know if I asked the question I say, “Do you think we’ll have more or less network connected screens in three to five years?” The inevitable answer is sort of, “We’ll have more,” right, and therefore I think people’s expectations will rise significantly in terms of being able to interop between those screens, and it will be interesting in the evolution of mobile devices to see what role the mobile device starts to play in that kind of universe. Is it kind of, you know, a remote control to other devices, is it more of a synchronization situation, is it more of a parallel functionality situation; these multi-screen features are the things that are kind of really emerging now.

卢克：嘿，如果我知道我现在不会和你说话，对，我会放弃的。 从较高的角度来看，我看似不可避免的事情，您知道我是否问过我一个问题：“您认为我们在三到五年内会拥有更多或更少的网络连接屏幕吗？” 不可避免的答案是“我们将拥有更多”，因此，我认为人们对于能够在这些屏幕之间进行互操作的期望将会大大提高，并且在移动设备的发展过程中，有趣的是可以看到移动设备开始在这种宇宙中扮演什么角色。 您知道，这是对其他设备的远程控制吗？更多的是同步情况，还是更多的并行功能情况？ 这些多屏幕功能现在确实正在出现。

Louis: Right.

路易斯：对。

Luke: Because in general we do have a pretty good sense of how people are using their mobile devices, they’re using it to look up and find out information, they’re using it to kill time, they’re using it to get small things done, and sometimes big things, but usually smaller tasks, right, every once in a while you’ll write a really long email, but usually you respond to quicker, smaller things. And they’re also using it to keep up with things that are important to them, whether that’s sports scores, financial information, news feeds and social networks, and so on and so forth. So we have a pretty good sense of the kinds of things that people are doing with these devices; I think the more interesting thing becomes how those tasks interrelate with other tasks on other screens as we get more networked products in our lives.

卢克：因为总的来说，我们确实对人们如何使用移动设备有很好的了解，所以他们正在使用它来查找和查找信息，他们正在使用它来消磨时间，他们正在使用它来获取时间。做的小事情，有时是大的事情，但通常是较小的任务，对，每隔一段时间，您会写一封非常长的电子邮件，但通常您会响应更快，更小的事情。 他们还使用它来跟上对他们来说很重要的事情，无论是体育比分，财务信息，新闻订阅源和社交网络，等等。 因此，我们对人们使用这些设备所做的事情有很好的了解。 我认为，随着我们在生活中获得更多联网产品，这些任务如何与其他屏幕上的其他任务相互关联变得更加有趣。

Louis: Right. Yeah, it’s definitely like you said, it’s a time where a lot of things are changing, and it’s going to be interesting to see how it develops and keep up with it. I wanted to thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show, it’s really appreciated. So your new book out is Mobile First, it’s on A Book Apart, so obviously people should check that out, and if people want to find you online do you want to drop links to your website and/or Twitter and/or other things?

路易斯：对。 是的，这绝对是您所说的，这是一个很多事情都在变化的时代，看到它如何发展并与时俱进将会很有趣。 我非常感谢您抽出宝贵的时间参加演出，我们非常感谢。 因此，您的新书是《移动优先》(Mobile First)，位于《 A Book Apart》上，显然，人们应该检查一下，如果人们想在网上找到您，是否要删除指向您的网站和/或Twitter和/或其他内容的链接？

Luke: Yeah, it’s all just @Lukew, if it’s on the Twitters or the websites (lukew.com) or God knows what.

卢克：是的，只要是@Lukew ，如果它在Twitter或网站( lukew.com )上，或者上帝知道。

Louis: Fantastic. Alright, well, thanks again for taking the time.

路易斯：太棒了。 好吧，再次感谢您抽出宝贵的时间。

Luke: Great, thanks. Take care.

卢克：太好了，谢谢。 照顾自己。

Louis: Thanks. And thanks for listening to this week’s episode of the SitePoint Podcast. I’d love to hear what you thought about today’s show, so if you have any thoughts or suggestions just go to Sitepoint.com/podcast and you can leave a comment on today’s episode, you can also get any of our previous episodes to download or subscribe to get the show automatically. You can follow SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, that’s sitepoint d-o-t-c-o-m, and you can follow me on Twitter @rssaddict. The show this week was produced by Karn Broad and I’m Louis Simoneau, thanks for listening and bye for now.

路易斯：谢谢。 感谢您收听本周的SitePoint播客。 我很想听听您对今天节目的看法，因此，如果您有任何想法或建议，请访问Sitepoint.com/podcast ，您可以对今天的节目发表评论，也可以下载我们以前的任何节目或订阅自动显示节目。 您可以在Twitter @sitepointdotcom (即站点点dotcom)上关注SitePoint ，也可以在Twitter @rssaddict上关注我。 本周的节目是由Karn Broad和我是Louis Simoneau制作的，感谢您的收听和再见。

Theme music by Mike Mella.

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翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-153-mobile-first-with-luke-wroblewski/