SitePoint播客＃119：在线社区圆桌会议

Episode 119 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week the panel is made up of regular host Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy) with guests Venessa Paech (@venessapaech), Sarah Hawk (@ilovethehawk) and Matt Haughey (@mathowie). The panel discuss the profession of Online Community, how it’s grown in importance and profile, and what it means to today’s Web.

SitePoint Podcast的第119集现已发布！ 该小组由常规主持人Patrick O'Keefe( @iFroggy )和来宾Venessa Paech( @venessapaech )，Sarah Hawk( @ilovethehawk )和Matt Haughey( @mathowie )组成。 该小组讨论了在线社区的专业，在线社区的重要性和知名度如何增长以及对当今网络的意义。

下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)

You can download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

您可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：

• SitePoint Podcast #119: Online Community Roundtable with Matthew Haughey Sarah Hawk and Venessa Paech (MP3, 49:53, 45.7MB)

  SitePoint播客＃119：Matthew Haughey和Sarah Hawk和Venessa Paech的在线社区圆桌会议 (MP3，49:53，45.7MB)

面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)

Patrick: Hello and welcome to a special edition of the SitePoint Podcast! This is Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy) and I’m joined by a panel of community management veterans. Today we’ll be ripping on the profession, the challenges that we face and the state of community management today. I’m joined by Venessa Paech (@venessapaech), Sarah Hawk (@ilovethehawk) and Matt Haughey (@mathowie), and rather than having me introduce yourselves I’d like to ask each of you to give me the 20 second bio and talk about your experience in community management, Venessa, why don’t you go first.

帕特里克(Patrick)：您好，欢迎来到特别版的SitePoint播客！ 这是Patrick O'Keefe( @iFroggy )，社区管理经验丰富的专家小组也加入了我的行列 。 今天，我们将剥夺专业知识，我们面临的挑战以及当今社区管理的状况。 我加入了Venessa Paech( @venessapaech )，Sarah Hawk( @ilovethehawk )和Matt Haughey( @mathowie )，而不是让我自我介绍，我想请你们每个人给我20秒钟的简历，谈谈您在社区管理方面的经验，Venessa，为什么不先走。

Venessa: Sure, hi everybody, it’s really fantastic to be here. So, me; well, I came to the Web in general very early on, kind of early-ish pubic Web, kind of the late 80’s and was involved in online communities from the start as a user, so early IRC communities, bulletin boards, lots of glorious fun things, and so got to kind of experience them as a user from an early stage and saw how interesting and how fascinating they were and kind of always had that in the back of my mind. Had a bit of a background in journalism and in theatre and in a number of other sort of interpretive and communicative professions if you like that somehow or another involved in studying the human condition, and ultimately I sort of in the mid-90’s found myself dealing with being the one in the organization that I was working in who was charged with dealing with the people online, whatever context that took, whether it was a forum or people sending emails or people in various social networks. And most recently I’ve been working for Lonely Planet, the travel guide publishers who are sort of running their whole ecosystems, online communities, the Thorn Tree Forums which have been around about 15 years right through to their Facebook and Twitter presences and things like that. So, yeah, I’ve been around a while and seen a lot of changes obviously.

Venessa：好的，大家好，能来这里真是太好了。 所以，我； 好吧，我很早就开始使用Web，有点像早期的公共Web，大概是80年代后期，并且从一开始就以用户身份参与了在线社区，因此，早期的IRC社区，公告板，许多光荣的人有趣的事物，因此从早期开始就以用户的身份体验它们，并看到它们多么有趣和令人着迷，并且总在我的脑海中浮现出这些东西。 如果您希望以某种方式或其他方式参与研究人类状况，则具有新闻，戏剧和其他多种解释和交流专业的背景，最终我在90年代中期发现自己从事与我所工作的组织中的那个人一起负责与在线人员打交道，无论在什么情况下，无论是论坛还是发送电子邮件的人员，还是各种社交网络中的人员。 最近，我为Lonely Planet工作，他们是旅游指南的发布者，他们正在运行着整个生态系统，在线社区，Thorn Tree论坛，这些论坛已经存在了大约15年，直到他们在Facebook和Twitter上的存在以及诸如此类的事情那。 所以，是的，我已经有一段时间了，并且看到了很多变化。

Patrick: And Sarah?

帕特里克：莎拉？

Sarah: Yeah, hi. My introduction to community management has been solely through SitePoint, actually I started off as a community member about eight years ago I think, I was a .net developer for a big corporation and out of, I don’t know, laziness and desperation I suppose I would use SitePoint to solve problems and grab code. And, yeah, as a result got really interested in the community side of things which was a much better fit for me working with people rather than code (laughs), which I know will surprise quite a few of you, and so, yeah, worked my up through the staff really and left the workforce to have kids three years ago, two-and-a-half years ago, and SitePoint sort of tracked me down and asked me if I wanted the perfect stay-at-home mother job of managing the community, and so, yeah, I’ve been doing that for a year now and have absolutely no intention of giving it up anytime soon, that’s me.

莎拉：是的，嗨。 我对社区管理的介绍完全是通过SitePoint进行的，实际上我是大约八年前开始成为社区成员的，我认为我是一家大公司的.net开发人员，但出于我的懒惰和绝望，我不知道假设我将使用SitePoint解决问题并获取代码。 是的，结果是对社区方面的东西非常感兴趣，这比起与代码(笑)更适合我与人一起工作(笑)，我知道这会让你们中的很多人感到惊讶，是的，我真的是通过员工的努力工作的，并在三年前，两年半前离开了劳动力去生孩子，SitePoint有点跟踪我，问我是否想要完美的在家待命的母亲工作是的，是的，我已经做了一年了，绝对不打算很快放弃它，就是我。

Patrick: And Matt?

帕特里克：还有马特？

Matt: Hello, glad to be here. Matt Haughey, I guess I started online in the mid-90’s, sort of kicked around a whole bunch of different web design mailing lists and kind of had in the back of my mind I’d like to run my own community, the world of blogs was sort of coming up around ’98, I started working on my own software because there was no such thing as Blogger, WordPress or any sort of Weblog software, so I sort of taught myself Cold Fusion at the time, built my first web app and quickly realized if you make a single author database powered site you can have 10,000 authors if you want, and if you make one page you can make 10,000 pages, so I made a little community blog and I had no idea how big it would get, I thought it would be four or five authors posting, a couple hundred commenters or something, and after a couple of years it sort of blossomed into a few thousand and we’re running up on our 12th anniversary in a couple weeks.

Matt：您好，很高兴来到这里。 Matt Haughey，我想我是90年代中期开始在线学习的，当时有各种各样的网页设计邮件列表出现在我的脑海中，我想经营自己的社区，这个世界博客大约在98年代出现，我开始开发自己的软件，因为那里没有Blogger，WordPress或任何Weblog软件，因此我当时自学了Cold Fusion，建立了我的第一个网站应用程序并很快实现，如果您要创建一个由作者数据库驱动的站点，则可以有10,000个作者，如果您创建一个页面，则可以有10,000个页面，因此我创建了一个社区博客，但我不知道它会有多大得到，我想这将是四到五位作者发布，几百位评论者之类的东西，并且几年后，它发展成几千个，我们将在几周内迎来12周年。

Patrick: Excellent, congratulations.

帕特里克：太好了，恭喜。

Matt: Thanks.

马特：谢谢。

Patrick: And for any listeners that might be unfamiliar with me, obviously I’m Patrick O’Keefe, I run the iFroggy Network, it’s a network of websites covering various interests, I have been managing online communities for 11 years, online community is what I do and I think as with everyone here it’s a passion for me and I speak about it at conferences and events and using my experience I wrote the book, Managing Online Forums, which is a practical guide to managing online forums, communities and social spaces. So with that said let’s jump into the topics here. I think the first one that I want to tackle is online community, as I just called it a profession, it’s a hot job, it’s a hot title right now; countless numbers of job descriptions or job listings cross I guess my Twitter page would be the place I see them the most, and it’s always online community manager, and there are just so many of them popping up; what does the ideal online community manager look like, what skills do they have, how does this compare with how the role is packaged and sold? I don’t know who would like to take that one first but I’ll just start with this thought, it’s funny to watch how the title it’s almost everything, a catchall title in a way, where you have — I saw one the other day, I’m not going to call anybody out on this, it was actually in Australia, I’m not going to call anybody out but the title was Online Acquisition and Community Manager, and I think Sarah knows this job so we’ll keep that to ourselves, but the requirements for the position were: three years of online marketing experience, experience with search engine marketing, experience with email marketing and a passion for online marketing (laughter). So there wasn’t anything about community required, you didn’t need to have done that part of it before, so it’s a good thing because it means that the profession itself is kind of growing and it’s a hot thing right now, but on the other hand it’s sort of mixing up I think what the role is, and, Venessa, since you laughed I’ll ask you to chime in on that first.

帕特里克(Patrick)：对于可能不熟悉我的听众，显然我是帕特里克·奥基夫(Patrick O'Keefe)，我经营着iFroggy Network，它是一个涵盖各种兴趣的网站网络，我已经管理在线社区11年了，在线社区是我做的事以及与所有人一样对我充满热情，我在会议和活动中谈到这一点，并根据自己的经验写了《管理在线论坛》一书，这是管理在线论坛，社区和社交网络的实用指南空格。 因此，让我们进入这里的主题。 我认为我要解决的第一个问题是在线社区，正如我刚才所说的那样，它是一种职业，是一项热门工作，现在是一项热门职位； 我猜想我的Twitter页面将是我看到最多的地方，并且它始终是在线社区经理，并且其中弹出的工作太多了。 理想的在线社区经理是什么样子，他们具有什么技能，与角色的打包和销售相比如何？ 我不知道谁愿意先拿这个，但我只是从这个想法开始，很有趣的是，看到标题几乎是所有东西，总的来说，在某种程度上你拥有-我也看到了另一个那天，我不会再呼吁任何人，这实际上是在澳大利亚，我不会再呼吁任何人，但标题是“在线获取和社区经理”，我想莎拉知道这项工作，所以我们会保持自我，但对职位的要求是：三年的在线营销经验，搜索引擎营销经验，电子邮件营销经验以及对在线营销的热情(笑声)。 因此，社区没有任何要求，您之前不需要做过那部分，所以这是一件好事，因为这意味着该职业本身正在发展，并且现在很热门。另一方面，我认为角色是混杂的，而且，Venessa，因为您笑了，所以我会先请您输入。

Venessa: (Laughs) No, I’m sorry, and I don’t mean to be cheeky. I think we’re probably all saying this, I think on the one hand it’s genuinely fantastic that more and more people professionally are talking about the importance of online community, the idea of having some sort of staff member or personnel dedicated to thinking about and managing online community as a concept, as a cohesive concept across a business and across departments. I think my frustration is that along with that sort of ascendancy of awareness comes the natural confusion of a role, and that starts to happen which is that it’s sort of that people watching have a correct sense that it’s sort of a part of everything, that because people are media and online community for many businesses online underpins almost everything that they do that therefore it sort of has to be a part of everything and bolt onto everything, so they’re not quite sure where to put it but they have a general sense that everybody should sort of be doing it and thinking about it. So you do see all these very mixed messages and some truly hilarious job titles. And my reaction to what you said, Patrick, is that that’s an online marketing role and perhaps there’s a line item or a bullet point there that says that it’s really advantageous to have a deep or sophisticated understanding of online community and how it connects to what you’re doing. I fully disclose right now that I am a bit of a snob when it comes to the role, and by that I mean that — I don’t mean that someone needs to have necessarily an arm length of qualifications to have a job as an online community manager, but simply that I think that it’s much the same as me walking into a giant digital agency and saying, right, I’m going to take over all of your accounts, I’m a digital marketer and I know what I’m doing, I’m going to run everything for you; people would look at me rightly like I was mad. I think to me unless you put out quite a few fires and unless you’ve brushed up against what can be the mess of community as much as the fabulousness of community, then you probably aren’t really in a position to call yourself an online community manager, perhaps you’re a theorist, perhaps you’re an online community designer, a strategist, all of these other things which are components of the role, but I really don’t think unless you’ve sat with a group of people that you could arguably call a community and experience them in all of their complexity, good bad and ugly, that you really have earned the right to call yourself a community manager. And as I said, I freely admit that that’s a slightly snobbish position (laughs), and I’m open to having my arm twisted on that, but I do, so consequently I rankle when people sort of say, yeah, you’re a marketer and community manager, I’m like really, really? Do you ever actually touch people; do you understand how that works? So, yeah, as I said, I think it’s great that more people are talking about it and are aware of it and that there is this I think quite innate sense that it underpins a lot of what we do, but that it is still profusely misunderstood (laughs).

韦妮莎：(笑)不，对不起，我不是厚脸皮。 我想我们可能都这么说，一方面，越来越多的专业人士正在谈论在线社区的重要性，让某种工作人员或专业人员致力于思考和思考的想法真是太棒了。将在线社区作为一个概念进行管理，作为跨企业和跨部门的整体概念进行管理。 我觉得我的沮丧是，伴随着意识的这种提升，角色自然而然地困惑了，并且这种情况开始发生，那就是人们在看的是一种正确的感觉，即它是所有事物的一部分，因为人们是许多企业在线的媒体和在线社区，所以在线上几乎所有事情都是其基础，因此它必须是所有内容的一部分并固定在所有内容上，因此他们不确定将其放在何处，但他们具有一般性感觉每个人都应该去做并思考它。 因此，您确实会看到所有这些非常混杂的信息以及一些真正有趣的职位。 我对您所说的Patrick的React是，这是一个在线营销角色，也许那里有一个订单项或一个项目要点，这表明对在线社区以及它如何与在线社区进行深入或复杂的了解是非常有利的。你在做。 我现在完全公开自己，我对这个角色有点保守，我的意思是–我并不是说某人必须具备一定的资历才能从事在线工作社区经理，但我认为这与我走进一家大型数字代理商并说，对，我要接管您所有的帐户，我是数字营销商，我知道自己在做，我将为您运行所有操作； 人们会像我发疯一样正确地看着我。 我认为，除非您扑灭了大火，并且除非对社区的混乱和混乱之类的东西一无所知，否则您可能根本无法称自己为在线社区经理，也许您是理论家，也许您是在线社区设计师，战略家，但所有这些都是角色的组成部分，但我真的不认为，除非您坐在一起可以说是一个社区的人，可以经历各种复杂，好坏和丑陋的事情，而您确实有权利称自己为社区经理。 正如我所说，我自由地承认那是一个势利的姿势(笑)，我很乐意扭动它，但是我愿意，所以当人们说“是的，你是营销人员和社区经理，我真的是真的，真的吗？ 您是否曾经真正感动过人？ 你知道那是怎么回事吗？ 所以，是的，正如我说的，我认为很高兴有更多的人谈论它并且意识到它，并且我认为这是一种与生俱来的感觉，它是我们所做的很多事情的基础，但是它仍然充裕被误解了(笑)。

Patrick: Matt, I kind of identify with your background because I think we’re similar, and correct me if I’m wrong here because I looked at your blog and I didn’t see anywhere where it said hire me or consultant, so I look at it like I made up my own projects, my own communities, I don’t consult or you can’t really hire me, I kind of just do this, and you with MetaFilter have done that as well where you’ve been in this field doing it for over 12 years now, and so you were around before pretty much every community platform that now exists, was in existence, I mean that’s literally what it was like back then; I mean I tried to launch a community shortly after you launched a site and I remember the options that were available, so for you to see from where it started, or at least from that point because it started obviously earlier, to now and how it’s sort of become this professional thing, what do you think about all this?

帕特里克：马特，我有点认同您的背景，因为我认为我们很相似，如果我在这里错了，请更正我，因为我看了您的博客，却没有看到有人说雇用我或顾问，所以我看起来就像是我自己创建项目，自己的社区，我不咨询或您不能真正聘请我一样，我只是这样做，而您使用MetaFilter所做的工作也是如此从事该领域的工作已有12年以上，因此，在您几乎已经存在，现在存在的每个社区平台都存在之前，您就已经存在了，我的意思是那时候的字面意思是； 我的意思是，我尝试在您启动网站后不久就启动一个社区，并且我记得可用的选项，以便您从它的开始位置，或者至少从那时开始，因为它显然是从很早开始的，直到现在以及它的方式变成一种专业的东西，您如何看待这一切？

Matt: Well, so I’ve got like three moderators as employees and I just can’t, I mean I know there are commonalities among community managers, the last person we hired had experience going back like to sort of, what came before Wow, like sort of massive online multi-player game forums from like the late 90’s she had experience, but I always hire from within, and so I mean I would say even if you’ve run a community or something before I would be hesitant to hire anyone what wasn’t like a longtime member, that didn’t understand the culture, a true mature community has its own culture, its own sort of feel, you’ve got your regulars and what they can handle and what they’re used to, and having someone come in and shutting down threads or deleting stuff would just be a nightmare. So, I essentially the first two people and even the third person I heard people are doing a better job than I was, so there was just a point of like when I was doing it I did it by myself for the first six years and I had a full time job at the time and it was just hellish on my life, so every spare moment was spent on the community, and so if I pop in late night and people are going, “Ah, why isn’t this the way, why doesn’t the site work like this?” And I’d scrabble out a quick little reply like, “Ah, I just don’t have the time to program that, and if you guys could just relax, you don’t need that special,” and I noticed some other user would be like, “Well, I understand your concern but there’s only so much horsepower in the server and I don’t think that little edge case feature is really important.” And then I realized holy cow that person is way better than me at my own job and ended up hiring those people to help me run the site. So I would hope that real serious mature communities could hire from within at least so that the people that will be doing the community managing have a really good sense of the community.

Matt：嗯，所以我有3位主持人，但我不能，我的意思是，我知道社区经理之间有共同点，我们雇用的最后一个人有类似的经验，这是Wow之前的事，就像90年代末她有经验的大型在线多人游戏论坛一样，但我总是从内部聘用，所以我的意思是说，即使您经营着社区或其他事情，我都会犹豫不决。雇用任何不像长期会员，不了解文化的人，一个真正成熟的社区都有自己的文化，自己的感觉，您有自己的常客，他们可以应付的东西以及他们的处境过去，让某人进来关闭线程或删除内容只是一场噩梦。 所以，我基本上是前两个人，甚至是第三个人，我听说人们的工作要比我做得更好，所以有点像我做这件事的时候，我是头六年自己做的，而我当时有一份全职工作，这简直是我的生活的地狱，所以每个闲暇的时光都花在了社区上，所以如果我在深夜流行，人们会去，“啊，为什么不这样呢？ ，为什么网站不能这样工作？” 然后我会Swift做出一个小小的回答，例如：“啊，我只是没有时间进行编程，如果你们可以放松一下，就不需要那么特别了，”我注意到其他一些用户就像是，“嗯，我了解您的担心，但是服务器中只有这么大的功能，我认为边缘情况下的功能并不真正重要。” 然后，我意识到圣牛那个人在我自己的工作上比我强得多，最终雇用了这些人来帮助我管理该站点。 因此，我希望至少在真正的成熟社区中可以雇用，以便将要进行社区管理的人员对社区有很好的了解。

Patrick: Yeah, I think that’s a good point, and you know it’s important to distinguish between communities that are well established like a MetaFilter was six years in versus communities that are just getting started or a company that wants to better engage with their community, obviously those are different circumstances; I manage a volunteer team, as Sarah does with SitePoint, and it’s always from within because those are the people who understand the community. And so with an established community like that you do have to be really careful, so I guess just to kind of finish up on that skills point, Sarah, I wanted to ask you what do you view as sort of the primary important skills that you need to have to do this?

帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，我认为这是个好主意，您必须知道，区分已建立良好的社区(例如MetaFilter成立了6年)与刚刚起步的社区或想要更好地与社区互动的公司是很重要的，显然，这些是不同的情况； 我管理着一个志愿者团队，就像莎拉(Sarah)在SitePoint所做的那样，它总是来自内部，因为这些人是了解社区的人。 因此，对于像这样的成熟社区，您必须非常小心，所以我想只是为了完成该技能要点，莎拉，我想问问您，您认为您认为什么是主要的重要技能？需要这样做吗？

Sarah: A thick skin would be the primary necessity. I think that the key things for me are the fact that you are very much a people manager, as you say, in my case it’s an unpaid staff of approximately 60 which is a big staff to manage, especially when they’re not being paid, and for that reason I spend a lot of my time acting as a mediator both between the staff members themselves and the staff and the community, and I guess what makes that difficult is that all of this stuff is done in a very public way, so you’re managing your brand as well; whatever happens in your community spins off in ways that you can’t necessarily control, you can’t control what other people Tweet about you, you can’t control what other people say on Facebook about you, you can’t control what other people say on other forums about you, or on your own forum, really, if you want to manage things the way I do, so I think, yeah, very much people management skills, a very thick skin, some good mediation skills and a high-level awareness of your brand and how you want your brand or your company to be seen in the outside world.

莎拉：皮肤厚实是最基本的要求。 我认为对我来说关键的是，您实际上是人事经理，正如您所说，在我的情况下，这是大约60名无薪员工，这是一个很大的员工需要管理，尤其是当他们没有薪水时，由于这个原因，我花了很多时间在工作人员自己与工作人员以及社区之间担任调解员，我想让这一切变得困难的是，所有这些工作都是以公开的方式进行的，因此您也要管理自己的品牌； 社区中发生的任何事情都会以您无法控制的方式衍生出来，您无法控制其他人对您的鸣叫，您无法控制其他人在Facebook上对您的评价，您无法控制其他人人们在关于您的其他论坛或您自己的论坛上说，真的，如果您想以我的方式来管理事情，那么，我认为，是的，非常多的人际交往技巧，很厚的皮肤，一些良好的调解技巧以及对您的品牌以及您希望如何在外界看到您的品牌或公司的高层次意识。

Patrick: Yeah, on the topic of thick skin, Sue on the Web on Twitter, Sue John, she runs a community, she’s based in Charlotte, North Carolina, she Tweeted yesterday I believe, “Today a troll called me a bitch and wants me to die of cancer,” (laughs) so there you have it.

帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，关于厚皮的话题，在Twitter上的Sue在Twitter上的网络上，Sue John，她经营着一个社区，总部设在北卡罗来纳州的夏洛特，她昨天在推特上说：“今天，一个巨魔叫我called子，想要我死于癌症”，(笑)所以就在那里。

Sarah: Yeah, that can happen.

莎拉：是的，那有可能发生。

Patrick: Yeah, it’s a funny thing. We had a panel at South by Southwest years ago, and I forgot everyone who was out there, I think one was Heather who used to be the community manager at Flickr, and they all had on the back of their tags at the front of the stage they had what people had called them, and they flipped it around instead of their names to this awful name that someone had called them once (laughs), so that was pretty funny. Venessa posed a topic of why forums still rock, and I guess the point is the importance of forums within the space right now, whatever you call that space, whether you call that social media or you call that online community, and kind of how they fit in. Venessa, do you want to talk a little bit about that?

帕特里克：是的，这很有趣。 几年前，我们在South by Southwest开设了一个小组，但我忘了在那里的每个人，我想是Heather，他曾经是Flickr的社区经理，而他们全都在标签的背面在舞台上，人们听到了他们的名字，然后就把它改了一下，而不是改成别人曾经叫过的这个可怕的名字(笑)，所以这很有趣。 Venessa提出了一个主题，为什么论坛仍会动荡，我想关键是，论坛在当前空间中的重要性，无论您称其为哪个空间，无论是称呼社交媒体还是称呼在线社区，以及它们如何适合。Venessa，您想谈谈吗？

Venessa: Yeah, absolutely, and I thought this one would be close to your heart as well, Patrick.

韦妮莎：是的，绝对，我想这也将贴近你的心，帕特里克。

Patrick: Thank you.

帕特里克：谢谢。

Venessa: Just before we moved on though I just wanted to say something an acting teacher of mine told me once, and I think absolutely encapsulates the community manager skill-set quick nicely is, “Hide of a bear, soul of a poet.”

韦妮莎(Venessa)：在我们继续前进之前，尽管我只是想说一句我的代理老师曾告诉我的事，但我认为，社区管理者的技能组合绝对完美地概括了：“熊的藏身，诗人的灵魂。”

Patrick: Okay, yep. Written word is important when you’re managing a community.

帕特里克：好的，是的。 在管理社区时，书面文字很重要。

Venessa: Yeah, being able to spin that around and be necessarily empathic while being called every name under the sun is quite a skill sometimes, so to Sarah’s point completely. So why forums still rock, I find this really interesting because you’ve got, as the Web’s churning on, you’ve got a whole bunch of older established communities and many of those are forums because that was the technology available at the time, or the dominant technology. And I just think there’s something about we all know probably from experience that the physical structure of a social architecture can inform the behaviors within that, so you know whether it’s more conducive to sort of short form status update style sort of exchanges, Twitter, whether it’s 140 characters is something else again, creates a certain, or suggests a certain way of exchange, and forums again something different with their capacity to kind of let you dive a bit deeper and delve into lengthy long-form discussion, or it’s an environment that is invited and certainly considered acceptable, obviously people can disrupt any of those forums anyway, so you can do whatever you’d like with these forums but I do think they are conducive to one type of communication or another. So what I love about forums in a Facebook world is that it’s a space where you can still dive deeper, it’s also something about the fact that I think it creates in a world where you know Facebook and Twitter sort of dominate the paradigm and everything is very telegraph style short form updates, it can get a little ambient and it’s kind of wonderful and transient and amazing and awesome as well, but I think that our social lives tend to scroll past us so fast online now that it actually makes sometimes forming a community or sort of creating a sticky, if you like, sense of community a little bit difficult, a little bit challenging, perhaps that’s more like real life in a sense, but what I love about forums is that it creates a real sense of social wallpaper, it’s actually kind of a sense of a physical space, a bounded place where you can if you like hang up posters and decorate and kind of put up your fate; it’s the pub environment if you like where you can return time and time again and just have a real sense of shared history in that space that is a little bit more accessible than in the wall culture and status update culture. So it’s one of the reasons I like it, I think it provides a type of social interaction online that is difficult to achieve in some of the more popular social networks. So, what does everybody else think, do you love forums still or do you think they’re becoming redundant?

韦妮莎：是的，有时在阳光下被叫到每个名字时，能够旋转并一定要有同理心，这是一种技巧，所以完全可以归结到莎拉的观点。 那么为什么论坛仍在动荡，我发现这真的很有趣，因为随着Web的兴起，您已经拥有了一大堆较早建立的社区，其中许多都是论坛，因为当时这是可用的技术，或主导技术。 我只是认为，我们都可能从经验中了解到某种情况，即社交体系结构的物​​理结构可以告知其中的行为，因此，您知道是否更有利于使用简短的状态更新样式，交易所，Twitter，这是140个字符，这又是另一种说法，它创造了某种或建议某种交流的方式，而论坛的能力又有所不同，使您可以更深入地研究冗长的长时间讨论，或者这是一种环境这是受邀的并且肯定可以接受，很显然，人们仍然可以破坏这些论坛中的任何一个，因此您可以在这些论坛上做任何您想做的事，但是我确实认为它们有助于一种或另一种类型的交流。 因此，我喜欢Facebook世界中的论坛，因为它是一个您仍可以进一步深入研究的空间，也是我认为它在一个您知道Facebook和Twitter主导该范式的世界中创造的事实。非常电报形式的短格式更新，它可以获取一些环境信息，并且它也是一种奇妙的，短暂的，令人惊奇的，很棒的功能，但是我认为我们的社交生活往往在网上如此快速地滚动经过我们，这实际上使有时形成一种社区或某种粘性的(如果您愿意的话)营造一种有点困难，有点挑战的社区意识，也许某种程度上更像是现实生活，但我对论坛的热爱是它创造了一种真正的社交意识墙纸，实际上是一种物理空间的感觉，是一个有界的地方，如果您喜欢挂海报和装饰，可以摆出自己的命运； 如果您愿意，可以在酒吧环境中一次又一次地返回，并且在该空间中具有真实的共享历史感，比在墙壁文化和状态更新文化中更容易访问。 因此，这是我喜欢它的原因之一，我认为它提供了一种在线社交互动，而在某些更流行的社交网络中很难实现。 那么，其他人怎么想？您仍然喜欢论坛吗？还是您认为论坛变得多余了？

Patrick: Well, what I found funny was when I joined in QUORA for while and I still check in once in a while, but when it first got going and I was there I was having fun answering questions and I found that I would answer like three, four questions in a row about ‘are forums dead’, it’s like is this what I’m here to do on QUORA, it’s like are forums dead, why are forums stuck in 1999, why haven’t forums innovated ever? It was like these are the kinds of questions I have to answer, do you not understand the website you’re on? I mean QUORA is essentially threaded text conversation, they have some cool features, and features that some forums have had for quite a while, I mean the ability to vote things up and down, obviously QUORA is more reliant on that then many other communities, but there’s all these features and essentially when you break it down it’s a forum, and I think when I look at the social web as a whole I just see a lot of forums and forum-like functionality and I don’t see it as a necessary categorization I would say. It’s almost like when I talk to people, some people anyway, they try to separate forums from everything else in the world, like forums can’t innovate, forums are this, and they’re always this, this, this. Facebook came up with ‘liking’, aren’t they awesome, and forums had a thank you link on their site for — I’ve seen forums with that for many, many, many, many years, long before there was a Facebook. So, to me it’s a lot of the same and it’s all very deeply related. I don’t know, Matt, what do you think?

帕特里克：嗯，我觉得很有趣的是，当我加入QUORA一段时间后，我仍然不时检查一下，但是当它刚开始运行时，我在回答问题时很开心，我发现我会回答连续三个，四个问题关于“论坛已经死了”，这就像我在QUORA上要做的那样，就像论坛已经死了，为什么论坛在1999年陷入困境，为什么论坛从未进行过创新？ 就像这些是我必须回答的问题一样，您不了解所访问的网站吗？ 我的意思是QUORA本质上是线程文本对话，它们具有一些很酷的功能，并且某些论坛已经拥有很长一段时间的功能，我的意思是可以上下投票的功能，很明显QUORA比其他许多社区更依赖于此，但是有所有这些功能，从本质上讲，当您将其分解为一个论坛时，我认为当我从整体上看待社交网络时，只会看到很多论坛和类似论坛的功能，而我并不认为这是一个我会说必要的分类。 就像当我与人交谈时，无论如何，有些人试图将论坛与世界上其他所有事物分开，例如论坛无法创新，论坛就是这个，而他们总是这个，这个，这个。 Facebook想出了“喜欢”的意思，不是很棒，论坛在他们的网站上有一个谢谢链接，因为-在拥有Facebook的很久以前，我就已经看到很多年了。 因此，对我来说，很多都是一样的，并且都息息相关。 我不知道，马特，您怎么看？

Matt: Well, from purely pragmatic point of view I sort of consider what I do blog, or giant community blog, but forums have always sort of filled, I think they’ll be around forever filling a gap in; I use them personally as whatever the gap in knowledge is between a thing you bought and everyone who owns it and what the site or company offers which is usually slim to none, like forums are always there for everything, it’s mostly just regular end users sharing the knowledge they have about whatever it is they own and they like, and I own an iPhone but I also own an Android phone for testing, and it’s like I can’t use an Android phone for 30 seconds without having to look up some forum hack for what I want it to do. And like every car I’ve ever owned has a very specialized forum of like 200 people that know everything there is to know about the car and can tell you what’s possible and what’s not, or what noises they’re making or how to get more out of it. And so I see like forums just being absolutely useful, in terms of like innovation, you know, we’ve all seen like a UBB style forum and there hasn’t been a lot, I mean I’m saying this as sort of an outsider not in the game, but it seems like they’re a predictable format and I think that’s fine and that works. I have seen like what’s the whole stack overflow, stack exchange world, those two guys, Jeff and Joel, they’re doing kind of an amazing weird hybrid of like a very forum-y thing but then some Slashdot-y stuff that’s kind of like Dig, they’re doing something that’s kind of new and then making a million different topics for their forums, and that’s pretty interesting for new stuff, I’m always wary of ranking systems or numbers and judgments, we can talk about that later.

Matt：从纯粹务实的角度来看，我会考虑我在博客或大型社区博客中所做的事情，但是论坛总是充满了人们的情感，我认为它们将永远填补其中的空白。 我个人使用它们是因为您所购买的东西与拥有它的所有人之间的知识鸿沟，以及网站或公司所提供的东西(通常都是狭，的东西)，例如论坛总是存在于所有内容中，主要是常规的最终用户共享他们对自己拥有和喜欢的东西有足够的了解，我拥有一部iPhone，但我也拥有一部Android手机进行测试，就好像我不能在30秒内不用查看论坛就使用Android手机一样破解我想要的功能。 就像我所拥有的每辆汽车一样，有一个非常专业的论坛，由200人组成，他们对汽车有全面的了解，可以告诉您什么是可能的，什么不是什么，或者他们正在发出什么声音或如何获得更多能量。出来。 因此，我认为论坛在创新等方面绝对是绝对有用的，您知道，我们所有人都已经看到了UBB风格的论坛，而且还没有很多，我的意思是说这有点像局外人不在游戏中，但似乎它们是可预测的格式，我认为这很好并且可行。 我已经看到了整个堆栈溢出，堆栈交换的世界，这两个家伙，Jeff和Joel，他们正在做一种令人惊讶的奇怪混合，就像一个非常论坛性的事情，然后是一些Slashdot-y的事情，像Dig一样，他们正在做一些新颖的事情，然后为他们的论坛创建一百万个不同的主题，这对于新事物来说非常有趣，我总是对排名系统，数字和判断力保持警惕，我们稍后再讨论。

Patrick: Yeah, yeah. I mean I hate to use vocabulary words but I kind of view forums as a little ubiquitous where I once compared them to bread where it’s like we know bread, right, we know bread really well, we know what bread does, we know how it’s made, we know how its constructed, but you can do a lot with bread, you can add things to it as you’re baking it, you can add things to it after it’s out of the oven, you can do a million different things with bread, and I kind of see forums in a similar light where they’re adaptable, they’re very flexible, so there will always be that threaded text space conversation, I mean that’s not something that’s going to change, but the stuff that happens around them and like the things that you referenced with stack overflow, that’s where things change and that’s where we get ideas from, and social networks, and forums are in my view are social networks, and you have Facebook and whatnot, but I think those kinds of sites learn from forums a lot, and in a way forums or other online communities if you want to call it that are learning from what works well on Facebook or what works well on other social sites, so I think the space as a whole really learns from each other really well. And, Sarah, SitePoint Forums is one of the largest web development communities in the world, obviously I’ve been on there for a long time and have been a staff member, it’s very core to the SitePoint experience the SitePoint Forums, are they not?

帕特里克：是的，是的。 我的意思是我讨厌使用词汇，但是我觉得论坛无处不在，我曾经将它们与面包进行比较，就像我们知道面包，对，我们非常了解面包，我们知道面包在做什么，我们知道如何制作，我们知道它的结构，但是您可以用面包做很多事情，可以在烘烤时添加一些东西，在烤箱出炉之后可以添加东西，可以做一百万种不同的东西面包，而且我以类似的眼光看待论坛，因为它们适应性强，非常灵活，所以总会有线程化的文本空间对话，我的意思是这不会改变，而是发生在它们周围，就像您在堆栈溢出中引用的内容一样，在那儿事情发生了变化，在这里我们从中获得灵感，社交网络和论坛在我看来都是社交网络，并且您拥有Facebook和其他功能，但我认为这类网站可以从论坛中学到很多东西，而且论坛或 如果您要称呼它为其他在线社区，那是从在Facebook上有效的方法或在其他社交网站上有效的方法中学习，因此我认为整个空间之间确实可以很好地相互学习。 而且，萨拉(Sarah)，SitePoint论坛是世界上最大的Web开发社区之一，很明显，我已经去过那里很长一段时间了，并且是一名工作人员，这是SitePoint体验SitePoint论坛的核心，是否不是？

Sarah: Absolutely. And if I was to say otherwise I would be, um, —

莎拉：当然可以。 如果我要说否则，我会-

Patrick: In trouble (laughter). So in other words what an awful question, but I know SitePoint obviously has a presence on other sites like Facebook and Twitter and what have you, but the SitePoint Forums are sort of — it’s the home of the community, I mean it’s where — this is really the SitePoint community.

帕特里克：有麻烦(笑)。 因此，换句话说，这是一个可怕的问题，但是我知道SitePoint显然在其他网站(如Facebook和Twitter)上有业务，您有什么意思，但是SitePoint论坛有点像-它是社区的所在地，我的意思是它在这里-确实是SitePoint社区。

Sarah: Absolutely. And for me the forum, the beauty of a forum is the flexibility, I mean I work hard to maintain a Facebook presence and a Facebook community, but at the end of the day if somebody asks a web related question I tend to send them back to the forums because that’s where the data is, there’s no point in replicating that somewhere else. Some people don’t like forums but they’re in the minority, yeah, they’re the core of our community and I can’t see that changing, although there are people that do view forums as old-school, I mean to me the fact that nothing better or newer and shinier, maybe Q&A systems, but there really isn’t anything that in my view can do the same thing in a better way, there’s just the fact that forums still does well really.

莎拉：当然可以。 对我来说，论坛的魅力在于灵活性，我的意思是我努力维护Facebook的存在和Facebook社区，但是到最后，如果有人问与网络相关的问题，我倾向于将其发回到论坛，因为那是数据所在，将其复制到其他地方没有任何意义。 有些人不喜欢论坛，但他们是少数，是的，它们是我们社区的核心，我看不到这种变化，尽管有些人确实认为论坛是老派，我的意思是在我看来，没有什么更好，更新，更好的技术，也许是问与答系统，但是我认为确实没有任何事情可以更好地完成相同的工作，而事实是，论坛仍然表现良好。

Patrick: So let’s stay on that. We talked a little bit about Facebook and Twitter, and one of the things I wanted to discuss is integrating I guess what I would call structured communities, so I really mean forums when I say that, but hosted communities, communities that you yourself host whether you call it a forum or not. But integrating those structured communities that you have with Facebook and with Twitter and with other social sites that you don’t control, and when and how to do so in a way that doesn’t fundamentally change what your community is all about and, Sarah, with SitePoint I’d like to hear your thoughts on that.

帕特里克：所以让我们继续。 我们谈论了一些关于Facebook和Twitter的话题，我想讨论的一件事就是整合，我想我称之为结构化社区，所以当我这么说时，我的意思是论坛，但是托管社区，您自己托管的社区您是否称其为论坛。 但是，将您与Facebook，Twitter和不受控制的其他社交网站所拥有的那些结构化社区以及何时何地进行整合的方式，从根本上不会改变您社区的全部意义，萨拉，借助SitePoint，我想听听您对此的想法。

Sarah: Yeah, I am finding a really interesting dynamic at the moment with Facebook and Twitter, not so much primarily with our SitePoint community but with some of the spinoff communities that we’ve developed in the last six months, the really interesting thing I’ve actually pulled the pin on our RubySource Facebook community this week because I’ve discovered that RubySource, Ruby Programmers just aren’t people that use Facebook from what I’ve discovered, and it seems to me that to continue to try and pursue that audience was just sort of making us lose some respect really; how long do you continue to do something that’s just not working. So while I’m finding that for our SitePoint, our general SitePoint audience, the Facebook uptake is huge, you’ve really got to make some tough decisions as to what it is that you do want to target. Twitter I think you’ll always have Twitter followers regardless of what it is that you’re discussing, but as you sort of mentioned before that’s really one-way communication. I guess I would say that Facebook and Twitter are vital for many communities, they are something that I definitely would put a lot of stock in for younger, newer, larger growing communities, but I do think that you only trial something for so long before you decide that if you’re not getting any uptake then stop wasting your time, and I guess that’s what I’ve discovered lately. I find it heartbreaking really, I love Facebook from a business perspective, I don’t really use it on a personal level very much at all, and I always found it to be a personal failing when I couldn’t engage this new community and to pull pin on that felt like something that I’d failed and was doing wrong and I’ve had to sit back and think, no, hell, it’s just there are people that don’t use it, communities that communicate in other ways, and what I need to do in those cases is find out what those other ways are and try and target those, yeah, horses for courses I guess.

莎拉：是的，我现在在Facebook和Twitter上发现了一个非常有趣的动态，主要不是我们的SitePoint社区，而是过去六个月中我们开发的一些衍生社区，这真的很有趣实际上，本周实际上在我们的RubySource Facebook社区上发挥了重要作用，因为我发现RubySource和Ruby Programmers并不是从我发现的内容中使用Facebook的人，在我看来，继续尝试并追求听众只是让我们真的失去一点尊重； 您会继续执行多长时间无法执行的操作。 因此，尽管我发现对于我们的SitePoint(我们的普通SitePoint受众)来说，Facebook的使用量很大，但您确实必须对要确定的目标做出一些艰难的决定。 Twitter我认为无论您在讨论什么，您都将始终拥有Twitter关注者，但是正如您之前提到的那样，这实际上是一种单向交流。 我想我想说Facebook和Twitter对许多社区至关重要，我绝对会在年轻，更新，更大的成长社区中投入大量资金，但我确实认为您只试用了很长时间您决定如果不吸收任何东西，那就别再浪费时间了，我想这就是我最近发现的。 我真的很伤心，从业务的角度来看，我喜欢Facebook，我根本就不在个人层面上使用它，而当我无法与这个新社区互动时，我总是发现它是个人的失败。抓住那感觉就像是我失败了并且做错了什么，我不得不坐下来思考，不，地狱，只是有人不使用它，社区以其他方式交流，在这些情况下，我需要做的是找出其他方式，并尝试针对那些马，我猜这是课程。

Venessa: I think Sarah makes a really great point there which is that ubiquity is only so ubiquitous, to use the vocabulary word again, and it’s a great illustration of how, of what we would probably all know to be a golden rule, which is just because every man and his dog is in a particular channel doesn’t necessarily mean that you and your community should be, so certainly if everybody quote/unquote really is kind of in a space and looking at a space and innovating there then I think that you do have due diligence to see what that’s all about and see if there is a context to your community and your brand and what you’re trying to achieve, but I think that it’s okay if it’s not relevant, and like Sarah I think I’ve applied pressure to myself in that regard and certainly there is I think brand and organizational pressure and expectation that you have to have an absolutely kick-ass Facebook strategy to deploy in concert with all of these other things. And most of the time that’s absolutely true and it will enrich your entire community proposition, or can do so, but I think not necessarily, and I just think that we should be okay if it’s not the case. We had a similar experience at Lonely Planet in the years that I was there where we had a really long-term established community in the Thorn Tree Forums, they’ve been around 15 years, oldest travel community on the Web, a lot of older people involved, not really a Facebook crowd, I mean they looked at all the stuff and approached it curiously but with a degree of cynicism, but they had their space and they were getting their needs met in that space and they weren’t particularly interested in doing anything else, and that’s perfectly fine. However, the business, we knew we wanted to explore what we could achieve from a community perspective in these other channels, so we did so and we found that we built entirely separate discreet audiences in those channels, pretty substantial ones, and there was very little overlap; as Sarah said, we’re finding that core community just didn’t particularly use that other channel. Same here, we found that there was little overlap and we struggled for a while to figure out, thought we were doing something wrong and not seeing where the overlap was and that there was a failing there, and then ultimately recognized that what we needed to focus on was content and experience that was contextual to the channel, so contextual to Facebook, Twitter or forums or whatever else, but then underpinning that, that there was a consistency of brand experience that was part of a cohesive community experience so that if I did happen to use the forums, encounter the brand on Facebook or Twitter, bottom line I could expect similar things, I could expect a certain type of content, a certain type of customer service, a certain type of like-mindedness and people involved, and that was a reasonably consistent experience understanding that each channel is going to be a little bit different, if that makes sense. I think that integration’s really tricky, particularly if you are coming from a place where you’ve got a group of people that have really worked hard. As we mentioned at the beginning, there was a very specific community culture that has established and that’s if it’s authentic then that’s not something you can dismiss with a wave of the hand.

Venessa：我认为Sarah在这方面提出了一个非常重要的观点，那就是普适性如此普遍，以至于再次使用词汇词，这很好地说明了我们可能都知道的黄金法则，这就是仅仅因为每个人和他的狗都在一个特定的频道中并不一定意味着您和您的社区应该在某个频道中，所以可以肯定的是，如果每个人引用/取消引用确实是在某个空间中并在某个空间中进行创新，那么我认为您确实有尽职调查，以了解所有内容，并了解您的社区和品牌是否有上下文以及您要实现的目标，但是我认为如果这无关紧要就可以了，就像莎拉，我认为在这方面，我对自己施加了压力，当然，我认为品牌和组织压力很大，并期望您必须拥有绝对的Facebook战略才能与所有其他这些东西一起部署。 在大多数情况下，这是绝对正确的，它将丰富整个社区的主张，或者可以做到这一点，但是我认为不一定，而且我认为如果不是这样，我们应该可以。 几年来，我们在Lonely Planet上曾有过类似的经历，那时我在Thorn Tree论坛上建立了一个非常长期的社区，这些社区已有15年的历史，是网络上最古老的旅行社区，许多更老的社区参与其中的人，而不是真正的Facebook人群，我的意思是他们好奇地看了所有东西，但有些愤世嫉俗，但他们有自己的空间，正在满足他们在这个空间中的需求，他们并不特别感兴趣做其他事情，那完全没问题。 但是，对于企业而言，我们知道我们想从社区的角度探讨在其他渠道中可以实现的目标，因此我们发现在这些渠道中我们建立了完全独立的谨慎受众，相当庞大的受众，并且很少重叠； 正如Sarah所说，我们发现核心社区并没有特别使用其他渠道。 同样在这里，我们发现几乎没有重叠，我们努力了一段时间才弄清楚，以为我们做错了什么，没有看到重叠在哪里，那里有一个失败，然后最终意识到我们需要做些什么关注的重点是与渠道相关的内容和体验，与Facebook，Twitter或论坛或其他内容相关，但随后又强调，品牌体验的一致性是社区凝聚力的一部分，因此，如果我的确碰巧使用了论坛，在Facebook或Twitter上遇到了品牌，我可以期待底线类似的事情，我可以期待某种类型的内容，某种类型的客户服务，某种类型的志同道合以及涉及的人，并且这是一个相当一致的经验，理解每个通道都会有所不同(如果有道理)。 我认为整合确实很棘手，特别是如果您来自一群真正努力工作的人。 正如我们在一开始所提到的，已经建立了一种非常特殊的社区文化，那就是如果它是真实的，那您就不能随波逐流。

Patrick: So, talking about community culture, on your end, Matt, with MetaFilter, I go to Metafilter.com and I don’t see a Facebook icon or a Twitter icon. And I Google for MetaFilter a Twitter feed or Facebook page and I’m not seeing a whole lot, so you kind of outline that it is a community blog, it is what it is, there’s a specific type of community that’s built here. Is this something that you’ve thought about and decided that it wasn’t — it didn’t really fit in with what MeFile was all about or is it just you’ve been too busy; what is your thought process there?

帕特里克(Patrick)：因此，在谈论社区文化时，马特(Matt)，通过MetaFilter，我转到Metafilter.com，但没有看到Facebook图标或Twitter图标。 我在Google Feed或Facebook页面上使用MetaFilter进行搜索，但没有看到太多内容，因此，您大概会说这是一个社区博客，它的意思是，这里建立了一种特定类型的社区。 Is this something that you've thought about and decided that it wasn't — it didn't really fit in with what MeFile was all about or is it just you've been too busy; what is your thought process there?

Matt: Well, I guess I start as a web designer and developer, and I think you’ll see this like, I forgot who was saying, that Ruby people would never touch Facebook and I would totally see that. When you can build your own things you realize, oh, Facebook’s just five crappy versions of things I already love, like it’s a lousy Flickr plus a terrible Delicious plus a lame Twitter plus like a basic forum and Friendster kind of thing or LinkedIn —

Matt: Well, I guess I start as a web designer and developer, and I think you'll see this like, I forgot who was saying, that Ruby people would never touch Facebook and I would totally see that. When you can build your own things you realize, oh, Facebook's just five crappy versions of things I already love, like it's a lousy Flickr plus a terrible Delicious plus a lame Twitter plus like a basic forum and Friendster kind of thing or LinkedIn —

Patrick: When you put it that way (laughter). I mean we were talking earlier about South by Southwest, there it is, that’s your presentation, there it is, you’ll get votes, Facebook is a crappy version of five things I already love, the session!

Patrick: When you put it that way (laughter). I mean we were talking earlier about South by Southwest, there it is, that's your presentation, there it is, you'll get votes, Facebook is a crappy version of five things I already love, the session!

Matt: Yeah. So especially when you’ve built it yourself you can build a better photo sharing app yourself if you wanted to, so why would you use a crappy thing where they take your copyrights and friends tag you. So, Twitter and Facebook, we use Twitter as, you know I worked with Evan Williams before on Blogger, who started Twitter, oh, we use Twitter as a notification service, it’s just for the site blog which is our best of the site kind of feed, and Facebook, I don’t know, some random member made a group but there’s no point, like we have a whole sub-site called MetaTalk which is just about talking about MetaFilter, and everyone has their usernames and stuff and they all know each other there, so we just do that and we coordinate meetups on the site and share photos of those meetups, and we sort of built everything we need and Facebook and Twitter kind of offer very little, especially Facebook.

马特：是的。 So especially when you've built it yourself you can build a better photo sharing app yourself if you wanted to, so why would you use a crappy thing where they take your copyrights and friends tag you. So, Twitter and Facebook, we use Twitter as, you know I worked with Evan Williams before on Blogger, who started Twitter, oh, we use Twitter as a notification service, it's just for the site blog which is our best of the site kind of feed, and Facebook, I don't know, some random member made a group but there's no point, like we have a whole sub-site called MetaTalk which is just about talking about MetaFilter, and everyone has their usernames and stuff and they all know each other there, so we just do that and we coordinate meetups on the site and share photos of those meetups, and we sort of built everything we need and Facebook and Twitter kind of offer very little, especially Facebook.

Patrick: Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned that because something I’ve been saying a few times in different presentations as kind of a cute way to make a point, or I guess a stupid way depending on your perspective, is to say that I beat Facebook everyday. And my point is that I run a martial arts community and it’s one of the larger martial arts communities online, it’s a great community, I love it, I love what we have there, and I like to say, “If you want a martial arts community, if you want to talk with other martial artists you’re not going to go to Facebook.” Maybe there is a group there, maybe there is a page there and there are some good discussions going on, like no disrespect on that, I’m sure there’s some great community around the martial artists on Facebook, but if you’re actually looking for a community of martial artists you’re more likely to come to a niche community like mine to discuss that topic, so Facebook isn’t really a threat to that type of community in my view, but people want to try to build a community on Facebook which is great, but at the same time understand the limits I guess of that platform.

Patrick: Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because something I've been saying a few times in different presentations as kind of a cute way to make a point, or I guess a stupid way depending on your perspective, is to say that I beat Facebook everyday. And my point is that I run a martial arts community and it's one of the larger martial arts communities online, it's a great community, I love it, I love what we have there, and I like to say, “If you want a martial arts community, if you want to talk with other martial artists you're not going to go to Facebook.” Maybe there is a group there, maybe there is a page there and there are some good discussions going on, like no disrespect on that, I'm sure there's some great community around the martial artists on Facebook, but if you're actually looking for a community of martial artists you're more likely to come to a niche community like mine to discuss that topic, so Facebook isn't really a threat to that type of community in my view, but people want to try to build a community on Facebook which is great, but at the same time understand the limits I guess of that platform.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah, I mean Facebook makes total sense for like a friend runs a little hair salon in my little town, and like she goes on Facebook it’s awesome, and like that’s the place where she can post news and people in the area can see it show up as a local business or if they search for it they’ll see all this background info that they didn’t know, that works great, but for an existing community like, whatever, we already have our tools (laughter).

马特：是的。 Yeah, I mean Facebook makes total sense for like a friend runs a little hair salon in my little town, and like she goes on Facebook it's awesome, and like that's the place where she can post news and people in the area can see it show up as a local business or if they search for it they'll see all this background info that they didn't know, that works great, but for an existing community like, whatever, we already have our tools (laughter).

Patrick: Don’t even bother contacting them, Facebook; they don’t want you (laughter).

Patrick: Don't even bother contacting them, Facebook; they don't want you (laughter).

Venessa: I often find that using real world building and structural analogies can be quite helpful for this stuff as well, so one of my favorite examples with all due respect to the architects of Melbourne here in Australia, is that I often use Dockland, the Dockland’s precinct in Melbourne as an example of what not to do when building a community, hopefully they’ll prove me wrong over time, but it’s the classic they went in there and built bright, shiny, pretty structure, hyper-linear and said, great, we’ve built a series of villages, now come populate them, go forth and do wonderful things, and of course it’s still largely empty and very contrived as a social space, it doesn’t really work yet from an urban planning point of view, and I didn’t really talk to anybody that was actually around in the neighborhood and they didn’t really think about what they might need and they sort of ignored the fact that there was a bunch of established communities and villages that might be a bit less bright and shiny around that area. And so to your point, Matt, about community that already exists and is already around serving its needs and stopping to think about how maybe you can partner with existing community in kind of some innovating ways rather than sinking a ba-jillion dollars into giant shiny spaces.

Venessa: I often find that using real world building and structural analogies can be quite helpful for this stuff as well, so one of my favorite examples with all due respect to the architects of Melbourne here in Australia, is that I often use Dockland, the Dockland's precinct in Melbourne as an example of what not to do when building a community, hopefully they'll prove me wrong over time, but it's the classic they went in there and built bright, shiny, pretty structure, hyper-linear and said, great, we've built a series of villages, now come populate them, go forth and do wonderful things, and of course it's still largely empty and very contrived as a social space, it doesn't really work yet from an urban planning point of view, and I didn't really talk to anybody that was actually around in the neighborhood and they didn't really think about what they might need and they sort of ignored the fact that there was a bunch of established communities and villages that might be a bit less bright and shiny around that area. And so to your point, Matt, about community that already exists and is already around serving its needs and stopping to think about how maybe you can partner with existing community in kind of some innovating ways rather than sinking a ba-jillion dollars into giant shiny spaces.

Patrick: So I think for the last topic for this episode I want to talk about community projects, and what I mean is something that a community that you manage has done outside of the community, something they’ve put their collective knowledge or collective authority together to make something happen, and I’ll give you a couple of examples. SitePoint just released a new book that was written entirely by members of the SitePoint community called Thinking Web, Voices of the Community, and on the cover it says it’s by the SitePoint community, not any one person. Sarah, can you tell us a little bit about that process and how it came together?

Patrick: So I think for the last topic for this episode I want to talk about community projects, and what I mean is something that a community that you manage has done outside of the community, something they've put their collective knowledge or collective authority together to make something happen, and I'll give you a couple of examples. SitePoint just released a new book that was written entirely by members of the SitePoint community called Thinking Web, Voices of the Community, and on the cover it says it's by the SitePoint community, not any one person. Sarah, can you tell us a little bit about that process and how it came together?

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. The idea was from a community member who came to me with the suggestion that we do something in order to harness all of the knowledge that we have because it just — there’s so much, so much skill and talent just lying dormant really, and by nature the people in the community are people that want to share their knowledge and help other people. So we decided being a publisher already that a book would be a great way to go, I was really excited about the project and I’ve got to be completely honest, it didn’t take off quite in the way that I had hoped, people as they always are with this kind of thing were super excited about the idea and everybody wanted to be part of it, and when we launched the introduction of the idea we had hundreds of people that put their hand up for it, but then when push came to shove and I started giving people deadlines they all started disappearing and suddenly their emails apparently didn’t work anymore (laughter), they changed their Twitter handles, not quite, but yeah, it became a real exercise in facing people up and organizing things which wasn’t really what I had hoped, the onus really fell back on me; I had hoped that as well as being a project, a book that would be written by the community for the community, it would also be managed by the community for the community, but, no, it was managed by the community manager for the community. It’s cool, it was fun, I’m really proud of what we’ve come up with, it’s not what I had envisaged that it would be when we started, I had envisaged that we would have a real step-by-step to step somebody through the process of web development from designing your site through to coding, what we actually got was a smaller number of really specialized articles by people that know the topics very, very well, it doesn’t necessarily come together as a cohesive step-by-step type book that I’d hoped, but it’s certainly an awesome read. And what I do like about it is aside from the fact that it was collaborative and has given people that wouldn’t otherwise have the opportunity to get published that opportunity, it also means that regardless of who you are or what your area of expertise is there is definitely going to be something in this book that you haven’t read before. So it’s been exciting and it’s really cool to see people come together and create something new that they haven’t done before, so, yeah, while it’s not exactly what I had hoped the project, or why the project didn’t run exactly as I’d hoped that it would, we certainly have an end product that I couldn’t more proud of.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. The idea was from a community member who came to me with the suggestion that we do something in order to harness all of the knowledge that we have because it just — there's so much, so much skill and talent just lying dormant really, and by nature the people in the community are people that want to share their knowledge and help other people. So we decided being a publisher already that a book would be a great way to go, I was really excited about the project and I've got to be completely honest, it didn't take off quite in the way that I had hoped, people as they always are with this kind of thing were super excited about the idea and everybody wanted to be part of it, and when we launched the introduction of the idea we had hundreds of people that put their hand up for it, but then when push came to shove and I started giving people deadlines they all started disappearing and suddenly their emails apparently didn't work anymore (laughter), they changed their Twitter handles, not quite, but yeah, it became a real exercise in facing people up and organizing things which wasn't really what I had hoped, the onus really fell back on me; I had hoped that as well as being a project, a book that would be written by the community for the community, it would also be managed by the community for the community, but, no, it was managed by the community manager for the community. It's cool, it was fun, I'm really proud of what we've come up with, it's not what I had envisaged that it would be when we started, I had envisaged that we would have a real step-by-step to step somebody through the process of web development from designing your site through to coding, what we actually got was a smaller number of really specialized articles by people that know the topics very, very well, it doesn't necessarily come together as a cohesive step-by-step type book that I'd hoped, but it's certainly an awesome read. And what I do like about it is aside from the fact that it was collaborative and has given people that wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to get published that opportunity, it also means that regardless of who you are or what your area of expertise is there is definitely going to be something in this book that you haven't read before. So it's been exciting and it's really cool to see people come together and create something new that they haven't done before, so, yeah, while it's not exactly what I had hoped the project, or why the project didn't run exactly as I'd hoped that it would, we certainly have an end product that I couldn't more proud of.

Patrick: Just as a quick follow-up to that, the book is available as an e-book for free download, was that something that was decided early on; was it ever thought of as possibly being a product or a book that could be sold or was that just dismissed early on as something that wouldn’t work?

Patrick: Just as a quick follow-up to that, the book is available as an e-book for free download, was that something that was decided early on; was it ever thought of as possibly being a product or a book that could be sold or was that just dismissed early on as something that wouldn't work?

Sarah: I was adamant that that wasn’t going to be what this was about. We decided early on that if people wanted a printed version of the book that we would organize some sort of a print on demand option. As it turned out, there hasn’t been enough of a demand even for that for us to do something formal, so I’ve done some sort of personal research into that which I’m sharing with people if they want it but otherwise, no, it was always intended to be a free download for two reasons, one of them obviously is the legal ramifications of copyright and all of that sort of thing, it was going to get really complicated, aside from the fact that there would have been monetization required for marketing and that sort of thing, we would have had to figure out how we were going to pay the people that took part in it, or not necessarily pay but just all of the implications of that. So the fact that we didn’t know how it was going to end up as well to decide at the beginning that it was going to be something that we were going to sell would have put a whole lot of extra pressure not just on me and the team of people that helped me to organize it but just on the project on the whole, that’s why it was no pressure, it was a fun project, it was something that anybody could take part in. We had strict editing process and we did cut probably 50% of the articles that were originally put forth for publish, but short answer to your question that was never going to be our intention, no.

Sarah: I was adamant that that wasn't going to be what this was about. We decided early on that if people wanted a printed version of the book that we would organize some sort of a print on demand option. As it turned out, there hasn't been enough of a demand even for that for us to do something formal, so I've done some sort of personal research into that which I'm sharing with people if they want it but otherwise, no, it was always intended to be a free download for two reasons, one of them obviously is the legal ramifications of copyright and all of that sort of thing, it was going to get really complicated, aside from the fact that there would have been monetization required for marketing and that sort of thing, we would have had to figure out how we were going to pay the people that took part in it, or not necessarily pay but just all of the implications of that. So the fact that we didn't know how it was going to end up as well to decide at the beginning that it was going to be something that we were going to sell would have put a whole lot of extra pressure not just on me and the team of people that helped me to organize it but just on the project on the whole, that's why it was no pressure, it was a fun project, it was something that anybody could take part in. We had strict editing process and we did cut probably 50% of the articles that were originally put forth for publish, but short answer to your question that was never going to be our intention, no.

Patrick: And, Matt, as old as MetaFilter is I’m sure you have some fun stories, right?

Patrick: And, Matt, as old as MetaFilter is I'm sure you have some fun stories, right?

Matt: Yeah, yeah. Having a section of the site dedicated to talking about the site I originally designed that just to keep people from jabbering about like fonts that they didn’t like in the middle of a thread about some news event, and just being like shut up, don’t do that; having a place dedicated has been great because then people can talk openly about lots of things. So, we’ve had whole bunches of things, a lot of things spring out of Ask MetaFilter which is like Q&A forum where you never know what, it’s a community of about 10 to 12,000 people, you just never know what people’s backgrounds are, so we’ve had someone, a sort of famous story from the site is someone asking if they could figure out where their grandfather lived during WWII in Europe before the Nazis came and he bailed to America just in time, but he wanted to visit where he lived and in like eight minutes someone who worked at the Holocaust Museum basically had phone books from Austria from that year before the war started and could look up, and in 24 hours basically told him where to go, the exact building, and actually furnished all the documents for his immigration they had in files in Washington DC, it was kind of amazing. And we’ve had like our 10th anniversary we coordinated a 68 party, 67 meetups around the world on all seven continents, I sort of like PayPal’ed every organizer $50 to $100 bucks depending on how many people showed up for a bar tab, and we actually got someone in Antarctica that read the site and they sort of threw a party in Antarctica right at the South Pole and we got a cool picture of them at the South Pole, that was fun. Just last weekend there was this weird story of someone just saying that their grandmother had gone missing and what are some techniques to help track her down, and she was suffering from Alzheimer’s, I think early-onset, and was basically lost overnight in San Francisco, and a member that was just well trained in that sort of stuff I think he was in L.A. and he went up to San Francisco and basically coordinated the family and broke them off into search groups and reported to all the local community like the local media, the newspapers, just did everything by the book like the perfect rescue mission, and in something like four or five hours they found her just by coordinating all these people that had been trying to find her for the last 24 hours. So there’s lots of ways for the community to come together and do good things and work towards some cool goals.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. Having a section of the site dedicated to talking about the site I originally designed that just to keep people from jabbering about like fonts that they didn't like in the middle of a thread about some news event, and just being like shut up, don't do that; having a place dedicated has been great because then people can talk openly about lots of things. So, we've had whole bunches of things, a lot of things spring out of Ask MetaFilter which is like Q&A forum where you never know what, it's a community of about 10 to 12,000 people, you just never know what people's backgrounds are, so we've had someone, a sort of famous story from the site is someone asking if they could figure out where their grandfather lived during WWII in Europe before the Nazis came and he bailed to America just in time, but he wanted to visit where he lived and in like eight minutes someone who worked at the Holocaust Museum basically had phone books from Austria from that year before the war started and could look up, and in 24 hours basically told him where to go, the exact building, and actually furnished all the documents for his immigration they had in files in Washington DC, it was kind of amazing. And we've had like our 10th anniversary we coordinated a 68 party, 67 meetups around the world on all seven continents, I sort of like PayPal'ed every organizer $50 to $100 bucks depending on how many people showed up for a bar tab, and we actually got someone in Antarctica that read the site and they sort of threw a party in Antarctica right at the South Pole and we got a cool picture of them at the South Pole, that was fun. Just last weekend there was this weird story of someone just saying that their grandmother had gone missing and what are some techniques to help track her down, and she was suffering from Alzheimer's, I think early-onset, and was basically lost overnight in San Francisco, and a member that was just well trained in that sort of stuff I think he was in LA and he went up to San Francisco and basically coordinated the family and broke them off into search groups and reported to all the local community like the local media, the newspapers, just did everything by the book like the perfect rescue mission, and in something like four or five hours they found her just by coordinating all these people that had been trying to find her for the last 24 hours. So there's lots of ways for the community to come together and do good things and work towards some cool goals.

Patrick: That is amazingly wonderful. That’s a great story I have to say, that’s awesome.

Patrick: That is amazingly wonderful. That's a great story I have to say, that's awesome.

Sarah: I think you often think of communities coming together in times of crisis like that, I know that’s my experience too, like they can do wonderful things just out of goodwill and on the lark, but when things are going wrong you can see some pretty extraordinary things happen.

Sarah: I think you often think of communities coming together in times of crisis like that, I know that's my experience too, like they can do wonderful things just out of goodwill and on the lark, but when things are going wrong you can see some pretty extraordinary things happen.

Matt: Yeah, like we launched, I mean the entire idea of a Meetup came out in early 2002 when there was an earthquake in Seattle like in downtown, and everyone on the site was going, like 40 or 50 members in Seattle were just going, “Hey, my wall just came down, ah, I’m shaking,” like everyone was talking and then we realized, oh, my God, I didn’t know 30, 40 people lived in the same city, let’s go meet at a bar Friday night. And that started like the whole idea of meetups and now we have over 300 a year, like pretty much 15, 20 every weekend, somewhere around the world there’s going to be a Meetup of MetaFilter members, it’s sort of become this big part of the site and it just all came from an earthquake and people coming together.

Matt: Yeah, like we launched, I mean the entire idea of a Meetup came out in early 2002 when there was an earthquake in Seattle like in downtown, and everyone on the site was going, like 40 or 50 members in Seattle were just going, “Hey, my wall just came down, ah, I'm shaking,” like everyone was talking and then we realized, oh, my God, I didn't know 30, 40 people lived in the same city, let's go meet at a bar Friday night. And that started like the whole idea of meetups and now we have over 300 a year, like pretty much 15, 20 every weekend, somewhere around the world there's going to be a Meetup of MetaFilter members, it's sort of become this big part of the site and it just all came from an earthquake and people coming together.

Patrick: Wow. So before we close this episode off, because we’re coming up on an hour, I wanted to ask you Venessa about Swarm Sydney, it’s an upcoming conference for people in the community profession, right?

帕特里克：哇。 So before we close this episode off, because we're coming up on an hour, I wanted to ask you Venessa about Swarm Sydney, it's an upcoming conference for people in the community profession, right?

Venessa: It is indeed, yeah. So this is something I’m co-organizing with Alison Milchak who is the managing director of Quip, which is an Australian community management company. She and I actually founded the Australian Community Round Table a few years ago because we were all sort of, um, we knew there were lots of practitioners in the region of course, and we were all kind of a bit exhausted of seeing all the really exciting conferences and things happening on the other side of the world and not having the money to attend them all, of course wanting to. And they’re wonderful obviously, and we learn a lot from them, but we thought we’d like something in our own backyard because we are a bit far away, so yeah, so we had these series of roundtables and very quickly it became apparent that while they were very helpful there was the appetite for something a little bit bigger, there was never enough time of course to cover all the things everybody wanted to cover, there was always an appetite to bring more people in and make it a bit more open for people from other disciplines as well. So we’ve been organizing this conference, it’s the first Australasian kind of national level community management conference, we think it’s going to be on in November in Sydney, we’ve got lots of domestic community managers involved, myself is one of them, but we’ve got lots of folks from different communities, folks from over at Jama are going to talk a bit about enterprise, community from an internal perspective, we’ve got Jonathan Hutchinson from the ABC Extreme Broadcasting Corporations Pool, User Generated Content Community to come and talk about I guess the creative commons as a community and how that works and some of the complexities involved in managing that, some of our lawyer friends come along and talk about all of the legal stuff we all need to be aware of and deal with in our day-to-day, so information law and user generated content and all of these wonderful things, and the politics of ownership and copyright, and we’re going to have some high-profile international guests as well that we’re very excited about. So, yeah, we’re really thrilled, it’s just the beginnings of an event, it’s definitely a work in progress, but we’re really excited, we really want it to be an event of and for the community and for community managers, and we’re hoping that not just community managers but people that are really interested in what the day-to-day life of that world is about will be able to get a lot of value out of it, it’s definitely meant to be deliberately quite different to sort of all the social marketing conferences around the track some, which you know community management sometimes comes up in those as a point of discussion but it’s never really afforded a chance for a deep dive conversation about all of the mechanics of it, it’s not the forum for it. So, yeah, we want to be able to talk about and have an entire panel about trolls, have an entire panel about how to deal with all those wonderful names that you get called, and a few other interesting things like gender and community management, we see some interesting things happening there and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, we’re really, really excited and we hope it becomes something cool and of value to the community.

Venessa: It is indeed, yeah. So this is something I'm co-organizing with Alison Milchak who is the managing director of Quip, which is an Australian community management company. She and I actually founded the Australian Community Round Table a few years ago because we were all sort of, um, we knew there were lots of practitioners in the region of course, and we were all kind of a bit exhausted of seeing all the really exciting conferences and things happening on the other side of the world and not having the money to attend them all, of course wanting to. And they're wonderful obviously, and we learn a lot from them, but we thought we'd like something in our own backyard because we are a bit far away, so yeah, so we had these series of roundtables and very quickly it became apparent that while they were very helpful there was the appetite for something a little bit bigger, there was never enough time of course to cover all the things everybody wanted to cover, there was always an appetite to bring more people in and make it a bit more open for people from other disciplines as well. So we've been organizing this conference, it's the first Australasian kind of national level community management conference, we think it's going to be on in November in Sydney, we've got lots of domestic community managers involved, myself is one of them, but we've got lots of folks from different communities, folks from over at Jama are going to talk a bit about enterprise, community from an internal perspective, we've got Jonathan Hutchinson from the ABC Extreme Broadcasting Corporations Pool, User Generated Content Community to come and talk about I guess the creative commons as a community and how that works and some of the complexities involved in managing that, some of our lawyer friends come along and talk about all of the legal stuff we all need to be aware of and deal with in our day-to-day, so information law and user generated content and all of these wonderful things, and the politics of ownership and copyright, and we're going to have some high-profile international guests as well that we're very excited about. So, yeah, we're really thrilled, it's just the beginnings of an event, it's definitely a work in progress, but we're really excited, we really want it to be an event of and for the community and for community managers, and we're hoping that not just community managers but people that are really interested in what the day-to-day life of that world is about will be able to get a lot of value out of it, it's definitely meant to be deliberately quite different to sort of all the social marketing conferences around the track some, which you know community management sometimes comes up in those as a point of discussion but it's never really afforded a chance for a deep dive conversation about all of the mechanics of it, it's not the forum for it. So, yeah, we want to be able to talk about and have an entire panel about trolls, have an entire panel about how to deal with all those wonderful names that you get called, and a few other interesting things like gender and community management, we see some interesting things happening there and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, we're really, really excited and we hope it becomes something cool and of value to the community.

Patrick: Excellent, and the website for that is Metafilter.com and my blog is Swarmsydney.com.au.%20So%20let%E2%80%99s%20go%20around%20the%20table,%20Matt,%20where%20can%20people%20find%20you%20online?

%0A

%20Matt:%20 Metafilter.com and my blog is @mathowie, it’s just my name phonetically spelled, mathowie.

Matt: @mathowie , it's just my name phonetically spelled, mathowie.

Patrick: Sarah, where can we people find you if they don’t already know.

Patrick: Sarah, where can we people find you if they don't already know.

Sarah: Sitepoint.com very easy that one, and yeah, on Twitter @Sitepointdotcom or @ilovethehawk.

Sarah: Sitepoint.com very easy that one, and yeah, on Twitter @Sitepointdotcom or @ilovethehawk .

Patrick: That confusing brand (laughter). And Venessa?

Patrick: That confusing brand (laughter). And Venessa?

Venessa: You can find me at Communityengine.com, I’m lead community manager there, that’s my day job, and on Twitter @venessapaech just to be completely annoying (laughter). It’s a dyslexic peach if that helps, and Venessa with an E.

Venessa: You can find me at Communityengine.com , I'm lead community manager there, that's my day job, and on Twitter @venessapaech just to be completely annoying (laughter). It's a dyslexic peach if that helps, and Venessa with an E.

Patrick: Excellent. And I am Patrick O’Keefe of the iFroggy Network. You can find me on Twitter @ifroggy, my usual co-hosts are Brad Williams, Louis Simoneau and Stephan Segraves; you can follow them @williamsba, @rssaddict and @ssegraves. You can follow SitePoint @sitepointdotcom, visit us at SitePoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. Email podcast@sitepoint.com with your questions for us, we’d love to read them out on the show and give you our advice. The SitePoint Podcast is produced by Karn Broad. Thank you for listening and we’ll see you again soon!

帕特里克：太好了。 And I am Patrick O'Keefe of the iFroggy Network. You can find me on Twitter @ifroggy , my usual co-hosts are Brad Williams, Louis Simoneau and Stephan Segraves; you can follow them @williamsba , @rssaddict and @ssegraves . You can follow SitePoint @sitepointdotcom , visit us at SitePoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. Email podcast@sitepoint.com with your questions for us, we'd love to read them out on the show and give you our advice. The SitePoint Podcast is produced by Karn Broad. Thank you for listening and we'll see you again soon!

Theme music by Mike Mella.

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翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/sitepoint-podcast-119-online-community-roundtable-with-matthew-haughey-sarah-hawk-and-venessa-paech/