don sherry_心理学和网站开发，Sherry Walling-CSDN博客

don sherry

In this episode of the Versioning Show, Tim and David are joined by Sherry Walling, a licensed clinical psychologist with a special interest in technology-related issues. They discuss the particular pressures of life in the tech world, imposter syndrome and how to deal with it, public speaking, self care and the value of a therapist, open-source guilt, jumping off cliffs, and the fear of spiders.

在Versioning Show的这一集中，Tim和David与执照的临床心理学家Sherry Walling一同加入，他们对技术相关问题特别感兴趣。他们讨论了技术世界中特别的生活压力，冒名顶替综合症以及如何应对它，公开演讲，自我保健和治疗师的价值，开源内，跳下悬崖以及对蜘蛛的恐惧。

Visit the Versioning Show Home Page

访问版本控制显示主页

Subscribe on iTunes | Subscribe on Stitcher | View All Episodes

在iTunes上订阅 | 订阅Stitcher | 查看所有剧集

显示笔记 (Show Notes)

Sherry on Twitter: @zenfounder
Twitter上的Sherry： @zenfounder
Sherry’s ZenFounder podcast.
Sherry的ZenFounder播客。
Sherry’s website
雪利酒的网站
Psychology Today
今日心理学
Open Source Guilt & Passion
开源内lt与激情
Leadership, Guilt, and Pull Requests
领导，内Gui和请求请求
What Is Open Source & Why Do I Feel So Guilty?
什么是开源？为什么我会如此内So？
Open Source Guilt
开源罪恶感
Open Source Guilt
开源罪恶感
Say hello on Twitter: @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom
在Twitter上问好： @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom

对话重点 (Conversation Highlights)

I think a lot of people who work on distributed teams or who work remotely, while they might have connections through Slack and ongoing conversations with people throughout the day, they’re often very isolated. I think that can wear on folks over time.

我认为很多人在分布式团队中工作或在远程工作，尽管他们可能通过Slack建立联系并全天与人们进行对话，但他们通常非常孤立。我认为随着时间的流逝，这种磨损会逐渐蔓延到人们身上。

The pressure to stay up with all the technology, to stay informed, to stay, again, on top of all of the new versions that are coming out constantly — that’s a unique stressor. That hasn’t quite existed in this same way in the world before this.

紧跟所有技术，保持最新知识，再次保持在不断出现的所有新版本之上的压力-这是一个独特的压力。在此之前，世界还没有以同样的方式存在。

He thought that this sense of inferiority, or being less than, is sort of this totally normal hallmark of human development — that it’s because we feel this sense of inferiority that we have any drive or sense of striving.

他认为这种自卑感，或低于自卑感，是人类发展的这种完全正常的标志-这是因为我们有这种自卑感，所以我们有动力或奋斗精神。

I think the first thing really is to repeat over and over and over in your own head like, This is normal. I am not unique about feeling this. If nothing else, it’s also a sign that you’re pushing into the edges of your ability.

我认为第一件事确实是要反复不断地重复自己的想法，这很正常。我不是唯一的感觉。如果没有别的，这也表明您正在努力发展自己的能力。

You’re not going to know everything. You’re not going to be on top of everything. Especially in technology. So get comfortable with that.

您不会一无所知。您将不会掌握一切。特别是在技术方面。所以对此感到满意。

There’s this moment right before you jump where you’re like, I am going to die. This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever done. I’m totally going to die. Then you just take a breath and you jump.

在你跳到想要的地方之前的那一刻，我就要死了。这是我做过的最愚蠢的事情。我要死了然后，您喘口气，然后跳下。

I think when you try, people appreciate that. The more that you put yourself out there, the more connections that you have, the more fun you have, the more influence you have, the more your work is known.

我认为当您尝试时 ，人们会对此表示赞赏。您投入的时间越多，联系就越多，乐趣就越多，影响力就越大，您的工作就越广为人知。

You don’t have to go every week for the rest of your life and talk about your mother ad nauseam, but you should have some sort of mental health professional that you have a connection to that you can call when you need to. It’s just part of self care.

您不必一辈子都去上班，也不必谈论母亲的恶心，但您应该拥有某种心理健康专业人员，可以与您联系，并在需要时可以与之联系。这只是自我保健的一部分。

You’ve decided to offer something and people can use it or not use it. It’s OK to have boundaries, and it’s OK to say, Hey, no, man. I’m sorry it’s not working for you, but that’s that. You’re not responsible to babysit it for the rest of your life.

您已决定提供某种东西，并且人们可以使用它，也可以不使用它。可以有界限，也可以说，嘿，不，伙计。抱歉，它对您不起作用，仅此而已。您不必在以后的生活中照看它。

成绩单 (Transcript)

Tim: 蒂姆：

Hey, what’s up everybody? This is Tim Evko …

嘿，大家好吗？这是Tim Evko…

David: 大卫：

… and this is M. David Green …

…这是大卫·格林(M. David Green)…

Tim: 蒂姆：

… and you’re listening to episode number 21 of the Versioning podcast.

…，您正在收听Versioning播客的第21集。

David: 大卫：

This is a place where we get together to discuss the industry of the web from development to design, with some of the people making it happen today and planning where it’s headed in the next version.

在这里，我们可以聚在一起讨论从开发到设计的网络行业，其中一些人将其付诸实践，并计划下一个版本的发展方向。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Dr Sherry Walling, who is a doctor of psychology. We are going to speak with her all about the tech industry, things that we struggle with working in the tech industry. So let’s go ahead and get this version started.

今天，我们很高兴与心理学博士Sherry Walling博士交谈。我们将与她谈谈技术行业，这是我们在技术行业工作中遇到的困难。因此，让我们开始安装该版本。

David: 大卫：

Sherry, we’re really glad to have you here today. Thanks for joining us.

雪利酒，我们很高兴今天有你在这里。感谢您加入我们。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Hey, it’s my pleasure. I’m glad to talk with you guys.

嘿，这是我的荣幸。我很高兴与你们交谈。

David: 大卫：

Cool. We haven’t had a lot of people on this show who haven’t worked themselves in tech. We do like to start the show with a philosophical question. Our philosophical question for you is: in your current career, what version are you? And why?

凉。在这个节目中，我们没有很多没有从事过技术工作的人。我们确实想从一个哲学问题开始表演。我们对您的哲学问题是：在您当前的职业中，您是哪个版本？又为什么呢

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Well, I’m a new version — that’s for sure! I come from a very (well, relatively speaking) old industry — an old guild — of people who do psychotherapy, and practice psychology. I am one of the folks on the cutting edge of figuring out how to combine those skills with new technological advances, including doing remote consulting and therapy work. In different states. Using some of the technology that’s available that allows me to work with people all over the world.

好吧，我是一个新版本，这是肯定的！我来自一个非常(相对而言，相对而言)的老行业-一个行会行业-从事心理治疗和实践心理学的人们。我是最前沿的人之一，他们正在弄清楚如何将这些技能与新技术进步相结合，包括进行远程咨询和治疗工作。在不同的状态。使用一些可用的技术，使我可以与世界各地的人们一起工作。

That’s a little bit of a new thing in my community. Just this concept of remote work and having remote clientele. I don’t know what version it would be, but also a newer version in terms of thinking about how to meet the specific needs of the people who are making tech happen. Thinking about the psychological needs, and the unique challenges that technologists have.

这对我的社区来说是个新事物。只是这种远程工作和拥有远程客户的概念。我不知道它会是什么版本，但在考虑如何满足正在实现技术的人们的特定需求方面，还是一个较新的版本。考虑心理需求以及技术人员面临的独特挑战。

David: 大卫：

That’s fun. It’s interesting. What attracted you to that aspect of your field?

这很有趣。这真有趣。是什么吸引您进入该领域的？

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Well, I’m going to have to blame my husband to some extent! My history is in clinical psychology, and I have worked a lot with people who have very high stress jobs — military personnel, first responders, emergency room physicians. Those are the kind of people that historically I’ve worked with.

好吧，我将不得不在某种程度上责怪我的丈夫！我的历史是临床心理学，与很多压力很大的人一起工作-军事人员，急救人员，急诊室医生。这些是我过去与之共事的那种人。

The longer I’ve been around the tech industry — and it’s been about 15 years now, as I’ve been on the periphery of the tech community watching my husband Rob found multiple companies, watching them sell, watching them go through these event iterations. I realized there’s a lot of crossover between the kinds of demands of the highly stressed professionals I was working with and the kinds of challenges that technology folks experience — particularly founders and entrepreneurs.

我从事科技行业的时间更长了-大约15年了，因为我一直在科技界的边缘，看着我的丈夫罗布(Rob)找到了多家公司，看着他们出售，看着他们经历这些活动。我意识到，与我一起工作的压力很大的专业人员的各种需求与技术人员(尤其是创始人和企业家)所经历的各种挑战之间存在着很大的交叉。

It was a natural fit to be able to combine some of the work that we do. We co-host a podcast together where we talk about mental health and wellbeing and family life and relationship life among people who are in the middle of the startup world.

能够合并我们所做的某些工作是很自然的选择。我们共同主持一个播客，讨论初学者世界中人们的心理健康和福祉以及家庭生活和人际关系生活。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I have to admit, sitting in front of my computer, typing in a sometimes air conditioned room doesn’t always feel very stressful. But there is stress in the tech environment. I’m wondering what types of stress you often encounter in those areas.

我不得不承认，坐在电脑前，有时在装有空调的房间里打字并不总是让我感到压力很大。但有压力的高科技环保。我想知道您在这些地区经常遇到什么压力。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

I think there are some unique stresses that have to do with isolation. I think a lot of people who work on distributed teams or who work remotely, while they might have connections through Slack and ongoing conversations with people throughout the day, they’re often very isolated. I think that can wear on folks over time. That’s one of the stressors that I end up talking a lot with people about.

我认为与隔离有关的一些独特压力。我认为很多人在分布式团队中工作或在远程工作，尽管他们可能通过Slack建立联系并全天与人们进行对话，但他们通常非常孤立。我认为随着时间的流逝，这种磨损会逐渐蔓延到人们身上。这就是我最终与人们谈论很多的压力源之一。

I think especially for folks who are pursuing their own ventures, how to cope well with failure is a big challenge. I think especially when you are investing your intellect and your abilities and your ingenuity into an idea and it doesn’t work out, there’s a lot of identity that’s tied up with the success or failure that you experience. It’s maybe not a kind of crisis stressor — you’re not running from a fire or anything — but I think there are some deeper stressors that technologists experience.

我认为，特别是对于那些追求自己的事业的人来说，如何应对失败是一个巨大的挑战。我认为，尤其是当您将自己的才智，能力和才智投入到一个想法中而无法奏效时，会有很多认同感与您所经历的成功或失败息息相关。它可能不是一种危机压力源，您不是从大火中逃脱，而是什么，但我认为技术人员会遇到一些更深层次的压力源。

David [4:10]: 大卫[4:10] ：

You mentioned crisis stressors and there are different levels of stress. I’m curious how that reflects itself in what you’re seeing with the people you work with.

您提到了危机压力源，压力水平不同。我很好奇这如何反映在您与同事一起看到的事物中。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yeah, I think we talk about acute stress and chronic stress. Acute stress is that emergency response — you know, the server is down, none of our emails are being sent, the customers are all angry, everybody is staying up all night to fix this until it’s done. That certainly does happen in the tech world.

是的，我想我们谈论的是急性压力和慢性压力。紧急压力是紧急响应-您知道，服务器已关闭，没有电子邮件发送过，客户都很生气，每个人都整夜熬夜以解决此问题，直到完成为止。这肯定在科技界确实发生了。

But I think the chronic stress — the day in, day out things not working well, or feeling worn down, feeling overworked, feeling under appreciated, feeling isolated, having conflict with the team, having conflict with a manager or a boss — those are the kinds of things that tend to wear on people and really deplete people’s resources, that lead to burnout, lead to unhappiness in the long run.

但是我认为，长期的压力-日复一日，事情无法正常进行，或者感觉疲惫，感觉过度劳累，感觉被欣赏，感到孤立，与团队发生冲突，与经理或老板发生冲突-从长远来看，往往会穿在人身上并真正消耗人的资源的那种东西，导致倦怠，导致不快乐。

David: 大卫：

I wonder how much of what you’re seeing do you feel is more distinct to tech as opposed to other fields where people do work in distributed offices, sometimes people have day to day stresses. But tech has its own unique set of challenges, I believe.

我想知道您所看到的感觉与技术相比，与人们在分布式办公室工作的其他领域相比，有多少与众不同，有时人们会承受日常压力。但我相信，科技有其独特的挑战。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yeah, I think you’re right. I like to say that everyone is a special snowflag and no one is a special snowflag. The kinds of things that we feel, the kind of stress that we feel, that I feel as a professional, that you feel as a professional, it’s not that new. I think the language that we use to talk about it — the particular problems that keep us up at night — those are unique to the different industries that we work in, and those are I think unique to the challenges that technologists face. It’s both/and — both unique and both not unique. Is that too philosophical for you? Sorry! [Laughs]

是的，我认为您是对的。我想说，每个人都是一种特殊的雪花，没有人是一种特殊的雪花。我们感觉到的事情，我们感受到的压力，我作为专业人士的感觉，您作为专业人士的感觉，并不是那么新。我认为我们用来谈论它的语言(使我们彻夜难眠的特殊问题)对于我们所从事的不同行业来说是独特的，而我认为这些对于技术人员所面临的挑战是独特的。两者兼而有之-既独特又非唯一。这对您来说太哲学了吗？抱歉! [笑]

David: 大卫：

No, no, that’s fine. I think it can be difficult sometimes for people in tech to realize that the stresses that they’re facing really aren’t unique to humanity as a whole, even though they feel like such new, different things, because things are changing so constantly in our field.

不，不，很好。我认为有时候技术人员可能很难意识到，他们面对的压力并不是整个人类所独有的，即使他们感觉像是这样的新事物，也是如此，因为事物在不断变化中。我们的领域。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yeah, and again, there’s truths to that. The pressure to stay up with all the technology, to stay informed, to stay, again, on top of all of the new versions that are coming out constantly. — that’s a unique stressor. That hasn’t quite existed in this same way in the world before this. But, feeling overwhelmed, feeling like you can’t quite keep up with everything — that in itself is not a new feeling.

是的，这又是事实。紧跟所有技术，保持最新消息，再次保持在不断出现的所有新版本之上的压力。 -这是一个独特的压力源。在此之前，世界还没有以同样的方式存在。但是，感觉不知所措，感觉自己无法完全跟上一切-这本身并不是一种新感觉。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Speaking to that, one of the things that we alluded to in one of our most recent episodes was actually bringing someone such as yourself on the show to talk about something very specific that comes up a lot in our industry in one of these issues. That is the issue of imposter syndrome. We talk about this a lot. I’ve ranted about this a lot. Hopefully you haven’t heard any of those rants because they’re probably entirely incorrect, but I’d love to get your opinion on the topic, what causes it, and how we can get over it, of course.

讲到这一点，我们在最近一集中提到的一件事实际上是让像您这样的人来参加节目，谈论其中一个非常特殊的问题，这在我们的行业中经常出现。那就是冒名顶替综合症的问题。我们谈论很多。我对此非常抱怨。希望您没有听到任何这些咆哮，因为它们可能是完全不正确的，但是，我很乐意就该主题，起因以及如何克服这一问题征求您的意见。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Well, I think the bad news maybe is that it’s really normal and universal and probably you can’t get over it.

好吧，我认为坏消息可能是它确实是正常且普遍的，也许您无法克服。

David: 大卫：

We’ll just end the show there.

我们将在这里结束表演。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Episode over.

情节结束。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Sorry, you’re screwed!

抱歉，您搞砸了！

[Laughter]

[笑声]

I think understanding it is the real task. It’s called imposter syndrome now. It used to be called an inferiority complex, and that was a term coined by Alfred Adler who was a contemporary of Freud. So it’s been around a very long time. He thought that this sense of inferiority, or being less than, is sort of this totally normal hallmark of human development — that it’s because we feel this sense of inferiority that we have any drive or sense of striving.

我认为了解这是真正的任务。现在称为冒名顶替综合症。它曾经被称为自卑感，这是弗洛伊德的当代人阿尔弗雷德·阿德勒(Alfred Adler)创造的一个术语。所以已经有很长时间了。他认为这种自卑感，或低于自卑感，是人类发展的这种完全正常的标志-这是因为我们有这种自卑感，所以我们有动力或奋斗精神。

It’s not a bad thing if you use it well. If you can understand what it is and how to talk to yourself about it and not let it sabotage you or ruin the kinds of things that you’re trying to do.

如果使用得当，这不是一件坏事。如果您能理解它的含义以及如何与自己谈论它，而又不让它破坏您或破坏您尝试做的事情。

David: 大卫：

Well, that obviously leads to the question, how can we use it well? It feels like such an impediment to progress.

好吧，这显然引出了一个问题，我们如何才能很好地使用它？感觉就像是阻碍进步的障碍。

Sherry [8:05]: 雪利酒[8:05] ：

Yeah, I think the first thing really is to repeat over and over and over in your own head like, This is normal. I am not unique about feeling this. If nothing else, it’s also a sign that you’re pushing into the edges of your ability. If everything was easy and comfortable all the time, that’s great. You’d be working in a factory pushing buttons. It would be easy. There would be no risk and no challenge.

是的，我认为第一件事确实是要一遍又一遍地重复自己的脑袋，这很正常。我不是唯一的感觉。如果没有别的，这也表明您正在努力发展自己的能力。如果所有事情一直都很轻松舒适，那就太好了。您将在工厂中按按钮工作。这很容易。没有风险，也没有挑战。

The fact that you feel some inferiority or you feel some risk or you feel some edginess of, Oh my God, can I actually do this? means that you are living a life where you’re pushing into your own edges. I would argue that that’s a good thing. That’s a hallmark of your own effort.

您感到自卑，感到冒险或感到有些前卫的事实，哦，天哪，我真的可以这样做吗？意味着您过着自己的生活。我认为那是一件好事。这是您自己努力的标志。

First tactic, tell yourself it’s normal. Second tactic, tell yourself that it’s a good sign of the kinds of challenges that you’re giving yourself. Then I think the third tactic is ask yourself, “How is this shaping the decisions I’m making or the ways that I’m coming across to others? How is my internal sense of inferiority coming out in the world? How do I need to rein that in?” If those voices are too strong, they keep you from taking risks.

首先，告诉自己这是正常的。第二招，告诉自己，这是您所面临的挑战的好兆头。然后，我认为第三个策略是问自己：“这是如何影响我正在做出的决定或如何传达给他人的？我的内心自卑感如何在世界上显现出来？我该如何控制呢？” 如果这些声音太强烈，它们会使您无法冒险。

David: 大卫：

Yes, and I’ve definitely experienced that, and I’ve certainly talked with friends who’ve had that same issue. It’s interesting, though. I’ve talked mostly with friends in tech. This is something I’ve noticed since I started working in tech.

是的，我确实经历过，而且我确实与遇到过同样问题的朋友进行过交谈。不过，这很有趣。我主要是和技术方面的朋友谈过的。自从我开始从事技术工作以来，这就是我注意到的东西。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yeah, because I think, again, you’re pushing into edges. As the technology advances, as the language is developed, as there are new apps for all kinds of different things. There’s new integration. There’s new things. It is impossible for you to stay completely on top of all of the latest versions of everything. You’re not going to know everything. You’re not going to be on top of everything. Especially in technology. So get comfortable with that.

是的，因为我想再一次，您将步入边缘。随着技术的进步，随着语言的发展，也出现了针对各种不同事物的新应用程序。有新的集成。有新事物。您不可能完全掌握所有最新版本。您不会一无所知。您将不会掌握一切。特别是在技术方面。所以对此感到满意。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I find that often the area where imposter syndrome really presents itself is that I feel like I’m going to get found out and they are going to fire me or push me away out of that inner circle, or everyone is going to think that I’m some sort of person who is bad at my job or who has been lying this whole time. Is that sort of the same in regard to these solutions you’ve prevented? Or is there a different way at looking at those sort of intrusive thoughts?

我发现冒名顶替综合症真正表现出来的地方常常是我觉得自己会被发现，他们会开除我或将我赶出内心圈子，或者每个人都会以为我是某种对我的工作不利或一直在撒谎的人。关于您已避免的这些解决方案，这是否相同？还是有另一种看待这种侵入性思想的方式？

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yeah, I think you’re adding two elements. One is this idea of intrusive thoughts. That these are thoughts that just come into your mind at any time, any inconvenient time, and they speak loudly and they overpower your thought process. I think the second issue that you’re raising is the issue of shame. Like, I feel inferior and I have to hide that from other people so they don’t find out.

是的，我想您要添加两个元素。一种是这种侵入思想。这些想法随时随地出现在您的脑海中，它们大声说话，并且压倒了您的思维过程。我认为您提出的第二个问题是羞耻问题。就像，我觉得自卑，我不得不对其他人隐瞒，以便他们不知道。

Then you’re hiding. You don’t want to be seen. You’re afraid that your weaknesses will be found out. I think both of those are really important problems to tackle. Certainly this idea of intrusive thoughts: I think most of us can predict to some extent when our imposter syndrome is going to get triggered. For me, it’s like when I’m at a conference, or when I’m trying to prepare a talk, and all of a sudden I’ve decided, I don’t know anything about anything. I can’t believe I’m doing this. I’m definitely calling in sick. This is just a total waste of everybody’s time.

那你就藏起来了。你不想被人看到。您担心自己的弱点会被发现。我认为这两个都是真正要解决的重要问题。当然，这种侵入性思维的想法：我认为我们大多数人都可以在一定程度上预测冒名顶替综合症何时会被触发。对我来说，就像当我在开会时，或者当我试图准备演讲时，突然我决定，我什么都不知道。我不敢相信我正在这样做。我肯定打电话请病假。这只是浪费每个人的时间。

Those kinds of moments when we are, again, pushing into our edges — we can prepare ourselves for the fact that, Oh my gosh, these intrusive thoughts are going to be strong. This is going to be a time where I am really, really vulnerable to this kind of self-discouragement. I think that there’s probably a strategy to be proactive in reiterating, This is what I know, this is what I’ve done, and hey, I just have to keep putting myself out there, and if they find out they find out. So what?

那些时刻，当我们再次逼近自己的边缘时，我们可以为这一事实做好准备，哦，我的天哪，这些侵入性的想法将变得强大。这将是我真正非常容易遭受这种自我挫败的时期。我认为可能有一个积极主动的重申策略，这就是我所知道的，这是我所做的，嘿，我只需要保持自己的状态，如果他们发现了，他们就会发现。所以呢？

David: 大卫：

One of the things that I like about this is you’re relating this also to the public speaking that you yourself are doing, and it’s kind of become required of engineers and people in tech fields because we have to put our work out into the open source, we have to publish our code, we have to create a public identity for ourselves in order for people to find and recognize us. I think that’s something that’s new and unique perhaps to this early 21st century time that we’re living in.

我对此感兴趣的一件事是，您也将这种情况与您自己正在做的公开演讲联系起来，这对工程师和技术领域的人们来说是一种要求，因为我们必须公开工作来源，我们必须发布代码，我们必须为自己创建一个公共身份，以便人们找到并认可我们。我认为这可能是我们所生活的21世纪初新奇的事物。

Sherry [12:10]: 雪利酒[12:10] ：

Maybe why this idea of imposter syndrome has become so live in the tech industry is because there is this expectation of this very public presence. People are seeing you. They’re seeing your work. They’re hearing your voice. They critique your language, or the ways that you put words together. Once you’re out in the world in this public sphere, then I think that imposter syndrome can take deeper roots, because you can’t hide. You can’t hide what you don’t know or what you mispronounce or what you’re a little foggy about.

冒名顶替综合症的想法在科技行业如此流行的原因可能是因为人们对这种公众存在的期望。人们正在看到你。他们正在看你的工作。他们正在听到你的声音。他们会批评您的语言或您将单词组合在一起的方式。一旦您在这个公共领域中脱颖而出，那么我认为冒名顶替综合症可以扎根更深，因为您无法躲藏。您无法隐藏您不知道的内容，发音错误的内容或有些模糊的内容。

David: 大卫：

I’ve heard that fear of public speaking is the number one fear people have?

我听说害怕公开演讲是人们恐惧的头号吗？

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

That’s what I’ve heard! They’d rather die than go onstage. [Laughs]

这就是我所听到的！他们宁愿死也不愿上台。 [笑]

David: 大卫：

How did you push through that? You’ve put yourself out there. You have a podcast, and you’re out there giving presentations.

您是如何做到的？你已经把自己放在那里了。您有一个播客，并且在那里进行演示。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

I’m afraid of spiders. I’m not afraid of public speaking.

我怕蜘蛛。我不怕公开演讲。

[Laughter]

[笑声]

On one hand, I just got a little bit lucky. On the other hand, I grew up in rural northern California, where what we did for fun in the summers was to find cliffs or bridges and jump off of them into the various lakes and rivers around the area. There’s this moment right before you jump where you’re like, I am going to die. This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever done. I’m totally going to die. Then you just take a breath and you jump.

一方面，我有点幸运。另一方面，我在加利福尼亚州北部的乡村长大，在夏天，我们为了娱乐而做的事情是寻找悬崖或桥梁，然后跳下悬崖或桥梁，进入该地区周围的各种湖泊和河流。在你跳到想要的地方之前的那一刻，我就要死了。这是我做过的最愚蠢的事情。我要死了然后，您喘口气，然后跳下。

I think that’s a little bit of the model for the career decisions that I’ve made — which I’m not necessarily recommending, I’m just confessing! That the more risks you take, and the more you put yourself out there, it might not go well. But generally, I think when you try, people appreciate that. The more that you put yourself out there, the more connections that you have, the more fun you have, the more influence you have, the more your work is known. Anyway, I think it’s just a cost benefit analysis, and a little bit of take a deep breath and jump.

我认为这只是我所做的职业决策模型的一部分-我不一定要推荐，我只是承认！您承担的风险越多，您投入自己的努力就越多，这可能会做得不好。但总的来说，我认为当您尝试时 ，人们会对此表示赞赏。您投入的时间越多，联系就越多，乐趣就越多，影响力就越大，您的工作就越广为人知。无论如何，我认为这只是一项成本效益分析，需要一点点深呼吸和跳跃。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Well, that is certainly excellent advice, and definitely something that I’ve noticed. For me, the first time I ever realized how terrifying public speaking was, was as soon as I got done and someone asked a question. Then I was like, No, no, no. Don’t do that. You’re going to be asking me things that I haven’t necessarily prepared for. Let’s just skip to the end.

好吧，这当然是很好的建议，而且绝对是我注意到的东西。对我来说，我第一次意识到公开演讲是多么恐怖，那是我刚完成并有人问了一个问题。然后我就像，不，不，不。不要那样做您会问我一些我没有准备的事情。让我们跳到最后。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

I don’t have a script for that.

我没有这个脚本。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yes, exactly. Exactly. No slides to help me out with that one. That being said, switching gears for a second, what I’m curious about is how you see technology helping the field of psychology?

对，就是这样。究竟。没有幻灯片可以帮助我解决这一问题。话虽如此，切换齿轮一秒钟，我很好奇的是，您如何看待技术对心理学领域的帮助？

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Oh, man. Great question. I think like the rest of the world the field of psychology has benefited from increased access to information, the ease of access to information, the ease of collaboration. We probably don’t collaborate as much as we should, but we can. You can get a second opinion from a specialist at a clinic in Texas if you’re having a psych evaluation in a hospital in California.

天啊。好问题。我认为，与世界其他地区一样，心理学领域也受益于信息获取的增加，信息获取的便利性以及协作的便利性。我们可能没有进行应有的合作，但是可以。如果您正在加利福尼亚的一家医院进行心理评估，则可以从德克萨斯州一家诊所的专家那里获得第二意见。

I also think that there are now lots of ways to access therapy, whether that’s through some of the online services, some peer-to-peer support services, the suicide hotline. There are ways that people can, from the privacy of their own home, work with a trained professional without experiencing maybe some stigma of going to a shrink’s office, or without having to take off work. I’m hopeful that therapy and psychological care will continue to become more and more accessible because of the technological advances that make that possible.

我还认为，无论是通过一些在线服务，一些点对点支持服务，还是通过自杀热线，现在都有很多获得治疗的方法。人们可以从自己家里的隐私中与受过训练的专业人士一起工作，而不必经历到缩水办公室的一些污名或无需下班的方式。我希望，由于技术的进步，治疗和心理护理将继续变得越来越容易获得。

David: 大卫：

I think you’re also making the information about what you’re doing more available because of the availability of all these media sources and resources available to us now.

我想您也正在提供有关您正在做的事情的信息，因为现在所有这些媒体资源和资源可供我们使用。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yeah, I feel like my agenda talking to all of the technologists I do is really just to say that psychologists aren’t scary. If you need one at some point, don’t hesitate. If you find a weird one, just leave and find a different one.

是的，我觉得我与所有技术专家交流的议程实际上只是在说心理学家并不恐怖。如果您在某个时候需要一个，请不要犹豫。如果您发现一个怪异的东西，那就离开并找到另一个。

David [16:04]: 大卫[16:04] ：

I think a lot of us do need to talk to therapists at different times in our careers, and I do think there’s a stigma associated with it. How can people get past that stigma and really start feeling comfortable with this?

我认为我们中的很多人确实需要在职业生涯的不同时间与治疗师交谈，而且确实存在与之相关的污名。人们如何摆脱这种污名并真正开始对此感到满意？

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

I’m really a pragmatist about this. I have people change the oil in my car, I have people cut my hair. I have all kinds of people that help me with different parts of my life, because I’m not trained in those things, and I’m not good at them, and I can’t automatically see what needs to happen and what should be done.

我真的很务实。我有人在换车油，有人在剪头发。我有各种各样的人在生活的各个方面为我提供帮助，因为我没有在这些方面受过训练，而且我也不擅长于这些，并且我无法自动看到需要发生什么以及应该发生什么完成。

And so, a therapist, a psychologist, is just another one of those in that suite of possible professionals that you could talk to about a part of your life that you might not have perfect insight into. I think it’s like part of just good personal maintenance. Especially, again, if you’re in a stressful job or if you are someone who is on the edges of technology and you experience a lot of stress and pressure. Then have a relationship with a psychologist. You don’t have to go every week for the rest of your life and talk about your mother ad nauseam, but you should have some sort of mental health professional that you have a connection to that you can call when you need to. It’s just part of self care.

因此，治疗师，心理学家只是这组可能的专业人员中的另一个，您可以与他们谈论您可能没有完全了解的生活的一部分。我认为这只是良好的个人维护的一部分。特别是，如果您的工作压力很大，或者您是处于技术前沿的人，那么您会承受很大的压力和压力。然后与心理学家建立关系。您不必一辈子都去上班，也不必谈论母亲的恶心，但您应该拥有某种心理健康专业人员，可以与您联系，并在需要时可以与之联系。这只是自我保健的一部分。

David: 大卫：

I’m sure there are people out there right now who would be interested in something like that, but they wouldn’t really know where to start looking.

我敢肯定，现在有人对这样的东西感兴趣，但他们真的不知道从哪里开始。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yeah, I think there are definitely some good services online. Like Psychology Today, where you can search by your neighborhood, search near your office. Look for people, look at their profiles. It’s a little bit like online dating, except there’s no swipe right or left, whatever.

是的，我认为肯定有一些在线优质服务。就像《今日心理学》一样，您可以在附近进行搜索，也可以在办公室附近进行搜索。寻找人，看看他们的个人资料。有点像在线约会，只是没有左右滑动的感觉。

I think do your research. Go to see somebody who’s gone to a reputable school, or somebody who looks like they’ve put some thought into how they present themselves online. The most important thing about your relationship with your personal mental health professional is whether you like and trust them. You need to meet them in person or online, however that happens. Use your discernment. Do they seem like a reasonable human being? Are they someone that you trust? Are they someone that you want to talk to? That’s really the simple litmus test.

我想做你的研究。去看看某人去了名校，或者看起来像他们已经思考了如何在网上展示自己的人。与您的个人心理健康专业人员的关系中最重要的事情是您是否喜欢并信任他们。您需要亲自或在线与他们见面，但是那样的话。用你的眼光。他们看起来像一个合理的人吗？他们是您信任的人吗？他们是您想与之交谈的人吗？那真的是简单的石蕊测试。

I don’t think that technologists necessarily need a specialized therapist. I think sometimes founders or executives do benefit from somebody who has a little bit of an inside information into what that particular life is like. Anybody who is a halfway decent mental health professional is going to really get to know you and learn about your life and will be a student of your work — such that you can fill them in on the important things that they need to know.

我认为技术人员不一定需要专门的治疗师。我认为有时候创始人或高管确实会从某个人那里受益，这些人对特定的生活有一点内幕信息。任何一位体面的心理健康专业人员的人都将真正了解您并了解您的生活，并将成为您工作的学生-这样您就可以将他们填写在他们需要了解的重要事情上。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I did have one more question. That is the subject of open-sourced guilt, which is this idea that when you make a project and push it out into the public where everyone can use it, you are suddenly inundated with requests to fix this thing, and people can sometimes be hostile or people can demand that you add features or support them for this totally free software that you worked on your own time to create.

我还有一个问题。这就是开源内的主题，即当您制作一个项目并将其推向所有人都可以使用的公开场合时，您突然被淹没解决此问题的请求，人们有时会充满敌意或者人们可以要求您添加功能或为您自己创建的完全免费的软件提供支持。

We’ve spoken with and we see in our industry people who have really struggled with this, and almost considered giving up working on free, open-source software altogether. I’m wondering what advice you would have for … I guess two types of people. The people who work on these free, open-source things and get stressed out when there’s this litany of requests and sometimes hostile people. Then the people who are hostile, who are receiving this free thing and then suddenly demand that they get more of that.

我们进行了交谈，并且在行业中看到了真正为此苦苦挣扎的人，几乎考虑完全放弃使用免费的开源软件。我想知道您会提出什么建议……我想是两种类型的人。从事这些免费，开放源代码工作的人，在有如此多的要求时有时会产生压力，有时甚至充满敌意。然后，敌对的人们得到了这种自由，然后突然要求他们得到更多。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yeah, man. I think people who decide to put something out into the world for free should really feel OK about having boundaries about how far they want to go to maintain it. It is OK to offer something, and if people don’t like it, haters gonna hate. There’s a sense of that does not reflect on you, it does not reflect on your quality in the community, it doesn’t reflect on the quality of your work.

是的，老兄我认为决定免费向世界发布某些东西的人应该对他们想要维持多远的界限感到满意。可以提供一些东西，如果人们不喜欢它，仇恨者会讨厌。有一种感觉不会影响到您，不会影响您在社区中的素质，也不会影响您的工作质量。

You’ve decided to offer something and people can use it or not use it. It’s OK to have boundaries, and it’s OK to say, Hey, no, man. I’m sorry it’s not working for you, but that’s that. You’re not responsible to babysit it for the rest of your life. At least, that’s not my understanding of the code of ethics around open-source software. Are you expected to maintain it forever?

您已决定提供某种东西，并且人们可以使用它，也可以不使用它。可以有界限，也可以说，嘿，不，伙计。抱歉，它对您不起作用，仅此而已。您不必在以后的生活中照看它。至少，这不是我对围绕开源软件的道德规范的理解。您是否希望永远维护它？

David [20:24]: 大卫[20:24] ：

I think some people who use it would expect you to.

我认为某些使用它的人会期望您这样做。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Definitely not. I mean, think of the pace at which things go out of date. There are ten other versions of everything you could ever think to need.

当然不。我的意思是，考虑一下事情过时的速度。您可能会想到的所有其他十个版本。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

I think at the end of the day, when you’re brushing your teeth and getting ready for bed, you just have to feel good about the way that you are ethical in the world. You have to feel good about what you have put out there in the world and let yourself rest with that. I certainly would not want to be motivated by guilt, or by being bullied or badgered to do any kind of work that I didn’t want to do or choose to do.

我认为最终，当您刷牙准备上床睡觉时，您只需要对自己的道德准则感到满意即可。您必须对自己在世界上发布的产品感到满意，并让自己安心。我当然不希望自己因内bull，被欺负或被欺负而从事任何我不想做或不想做的工作。

If you care about it, and you want to take care of it, good. Do it. If it’s a product of guilt and a product of bullying, then we have to work through those parts of ourselves that are vulnerable to being manipulated that way. That’s what it is. You’re being manipulated. It’s not something that you want or are choosing to do for the wellbeing of yourself or the community.

如果您关心它，并且想要照顾它，那就好。做吧如果这是内和欺负的产物，那么我们必须努力研究自己容易受到这种方式操纵的那些部分。就是这样您正在被操纵。这不是您想要或选择为自己或社区的福祉而做的事情。

David: 大卫：

Wow, Sherry. It is so comforting and so affirming to hear the way you talk about this. I know that a lot of our listeners are going to want to hear more from you and get in touch with you. Can you let us know how people can find you online?

哇，雪利酒听到您谈论此事的方式真令人感到安慰和肯定。我知道我们的许多听众都希望听到您的更多信息并与您取得联系。您能告诉我们人们如何在网上找到您吗？

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Sure, I’m @zenfounder on Twitter. That’s also the name of my podcast. People can find me at sherrywalling.com. The site’s kind of crappy. I’m reworking it, but you can get my contact information there.

当然，我是Twitter上的@zenfounder 。那也是我播客的名字。人们可以在sherrywalling.com找到我。该网站有点烂。我正在重做，但是您可以在此处获取我的联系信息。

David: 大卫：

Maybe we have a technologist out here who can help.

也许我们这里有一位技术人员可以提供帮助。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

Yes.

是。

David: 大卫：

Cool. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been a real pleasure.

凉。非常感谢您加入我们。这真是一种荣幸。

Sherry: 雪莉酒：

My pleasure, guys. Thanks for having me.

伙计们，我很高兴。感谢您的款待。

[Musical interlude]

[音乐插曲]

David: 大卫：

I genuinely felt comforted by that.

我真的感到很安慰。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, same here. It’s really nice to hear someone … I think for two reasons. It’s nice to hear someone say, It’s OK to feel those things that you generally feel as those long time stressors in your career. Also, it’s comforting to hear someone say that from the outside of the industry.

是的，这里也一样。听到某人真是太好了……我认为有两个原因。很高兴听到有人说：可以感觉到通常作为职业生涯中长期压力源的那些感觉。另外，听到有人从行业外部说这句话也很令人欣慰。

David: 大卫：

That’s true. Also, to be reminded that it’s normal, and that what we’re feeling is not unique to tech — even though it feels that way sometimes.

确实如此。另外，需要提醒您的是，这是正常现象，而且我们所感觉到的并不是技术独有的-即使有时这种感觉也是如此。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, that I think was my favorite thing. We’re so wrapped up in this industry; this is what we do to put food on the table. When someone reminds you this has been happening since the dawn of time. Human behavior never really changes. All of these things we just invent new names for them. We write more books and articles and blog posts about these things that have existed since the dawn of time. It’s really interesting to know that history has dealt with this before, and here’s how.

是的，我认为这是我最喜欢的事情。我们被这个行业包裹了；这就是我们将食物放在桌上的方法。当有人提醒您这是从时间开始以来。人类的行为永远不会真正改变。所有这些事情我们只是为它们发明了新的名字。自从黎明以来，我们就这些事情写了更多的书籍，文章和博客文章。知道历史以前已经解决了这个问题，这真的很有趣，这就是方法。

David: 大卫：

Sure. When she said the phrase inferiority complex I immediately recognized that. For some reason, I never mapped that concept onto this concept. It’s a clear comparison.

当然。当她说自卑感这个词时，我立刻意识到了这一点。由于某种原因，我从未将该概念映射到该概念上。这是一个明显的比较。

The one thing I was kind of disturbed about was that it sounds like this is really not something that you can get rid of. It’s more something that you have to accommodate yourself to and integrate into the way that you’re thinking. Make it a positive force in your life and recognize the positive nature of it.

我有点不高兴的一件事是，听起来这确实不是您可以摆脱的东西。您还需要适应并融入您的思维方式。使它成为您生活中的积极力量，并认识到它的积极性质。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah. I would say that my main issue with imposter syndrome is the idea that, like I said, the intrusive thoughts. The things that come into the back of your head and say, If so and so finds out about this, I’m finished. If my boss finds out that I’m really not that great at CSS, then they’re going to get angry and fire me.

是的我要说的是，冒名顶替综合症的主要问题是想法，就像我说的那样，是侵入性思想。出现在您脑海中的事情说：“ 如果能找到答案，我就完蛋了。” 如果老板发现我在CSS方面确实不那么出色，那么他们会生气并解雇我。

Just like Sherry said, if it happens, it happens. You are pushing yourself, you’re learning more, you’re going into new environments, and you will run into times where somebody finds out that you don’t know X, Y, and Z. As much as that is their job to handle something like that gracefully, it’s a good pointer on your life that you are challenging yourself and taking risks. That is how we get better at this.

就像雪利酒说的那样，如果发生，它就会发生。您正在推动自己，正在学习更多东西，正在进入新的环境，并且有时您会发现有人不知道X，Y和Z。这正是他们的工作优雅地处理类似的事情，这是您生活中一个很好的指示，您正在挑战自己并承担风险。这就是我们在此方面变得更好的方法。

David [24:12]: 大卫[24:12] ：

That’s true. I was thinking back, and most of the times that I have seen people terminated, at various points — laid off, fired, et cetera — it has not been because they didn’t understand the technology that they’re working on. It’s usually been for personality conflicts and issues like that, or for financial issues. Just that the company didn’t plan properly.

确实如此。我回头想想，在大多数情况下，我看到人们在各个地方都被解雇，例如下岗，解雇等等，这并不是因为他们不了解他们正在研究的技术。通常是因为人格冲突和类似问题，或者是财务问题。只是该公司的计划不正确。

But, of course, there are times when somebody has taken on a job and gone through the interview process and been hired but actually doesn’t have the skills necessary to do the work. At times like that, a manager does need to come in and either re-train or release the employee.

但是，当然，有时候有些人已经完成了工作，经历了面试过程并被录用，但实际上却没有完成这项工作所必需的技能。在这样的时候，经理确实需要进来并重新培训或释放员工。

If we’re pushing ourselves hard enough that we’re really trying to learn new things and really trying to expand in our careers, probably we’re all going to get ourselves into that position at one point or another.

如果我们竭尽全力以至于我们真的在尝试学习新事物并真正地在事业上发展，那么我们可能都会在某一点或另一点进入这个位置。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yes. It’s a profound experience when it does happen. That happened to me. Very early on in my career I got a job and I must have worked there for less than a week and the manager pulled me aside and said, You do not know Photoshop as well as I thought. Goodbye. That hit me like a tonne of bricks. It got me angry, and I learned Photoshop a few days later like through and through.

是。这确实是一次深刻的体验。那件事发生在我身上。在我职业生涯的早期，我得到了一份工作，而且我必须在那里工作了不到一周，经理把我拉到一边说：“ 你对Photoshop的了解不如我所想。再见。那就像一吨砖砸在我身上。这让我很生气，几天后我又学会了Photoshop。

Just because I knew that I could do the job and I knew that I could learn this thing that the manager said I couldn’t learn or didn’t know well enough. In my mind, he made a bad decision, wasted a lot of money. I could have done what I needed to do with just a little bit more studying and practice. Like I said, I’ve never let someone go ever because of what they didn’t know. That can always be changed. That being said, it was a profound experience for me, and it taught me to continue pushing, continue learning, and to not give up when it’s brought to light that I don’t know something that somebody else or some others thought I should know.

仅仅因为我知道自己可以胜任这项工作，而且我知道我可以学到经理说我无法学习或不够了解的东西。在我看来，他做了一个错误的决定，浪费了很多钱。只要多一点学习和练习，我就可以完成我需要做的事情。就像我说的，我永远不会因为某人不知道而让他离开。这总是可以改变的。话虽如此，这对我来说是一次深刻的经历，它教会我继续努力，继续学习，当发现我不知道别人或别人认为我应该知道的东西时，不要放弃。

David: 大卫：

I can resonate with that experience. I remember a situation I was in. This wasn’t actually a job. This was just an interview. It was far enough along in the process: I’d invested a lot of time and energy; I’d driven halfway down the peninsula to go to these interviews. At one point, it dawned on everybody in the room that they were asking me questions that were outside the scope of what I understood at the time. In this case, it was JavaScript-related. This was fairly early in my engineering career.

我可以对此经验产生共鸣。我记得当时遇到的情况。这实际上不是工作。这只是一次采访。在此过程中，这已经足够了：我投入了大量时间和精力；我已经开车到半岛中途去接受这些采访。有一次，房间里的每个人都开始问我，那些问题超出了我当时的理解范围。在这种情况下，它与JavaScript有关。这是我工程生涯的早期。

I was sitting there feeling like an imposter just in the middle of that interview. I was trying to justify my being there to these people who had invested their time and energy in bringing me through the interview process. When that happened, I went home and I realized that this is something I needed to know. I went and taught myself so much more about the intricacies of JavaScript and learned it in a much more intimate way than I had before.

在那次采访的中间，我坐在那里就像是冒名顶替者。我试图向那些花时间和精力使我完成面试过程的人们证明我的存在。当那件事发生时，我回家了，我意识到这是我需要知道的。我去自学了很多关于JavaScript的复杂性，并以比以前更亲密的方式学习了它。

I used it as a motivating force, much the way that you used that experience with your job. It was a motivating force to encourage me to learn something that clearly there’s a market for, and clearly I had not prepared myself adequately for that market. It became something positive, even though it felt very, very, very negative at the time.

我将其用作激励力量，就像您在工作中使用该经验的方式一样。这是鼓励我学习显然有市场需要的东西的动力，并且显然我没有为这个市场做好充分的准备。尽管当时感觉非常非常非常消极，但它还是变得积极。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I think one of the main lessons that I learned today was to use that imposter syndrome as a motivating force. When I’m feeling like, Oh my goodness. Everybody else at work understands this thing that I don’t understand. What’s going to happen to me? That’s really just my brain telling me, Hey, this is something you should study and relax about.

我认为我今天学到的主要课程之一是利用冒名顶替综合症作为动力。当我感觉像的时候，我的天哪。其他人在工作中都了解我不了解的东西。我怎么了那真的只是我的大脑告诉我，嘿，这是您应该学习并放松的东西。

David: 大卫：

Of course, as Sherry pointed out, things do move so quickly, and there is so much to know: everybody is going to have something that they don’t know. It’s about making intelligent choices, I think, in our own careers. We can make ourselves the expert on the thing that we want to be the expert on. Just by studying it and paying attention to it. We’re all competent. We’re all able to get to the point. We enjoy our tech enough that we want to do that. We do have to make judicious choices along the way. We cannot be the expert in everything effectively. It’s going to destroy us if we try.

当然，正如Sherry所指出的那样，事情确实发展得如此之快，而且还有很多事情要知道：每个人都会拥有他们不知道的东西。我认为，这是关于在我们自己的职业中做出明智的选择。我们可以使自己成为我们想要成为专家的事物的专家。只是通过研究和关注它。我们都有能力。我们都有能力做到这一点。我们非常喜欢我们的技术，我们想要做到这一点。我们必须在此过程中做出明智的选择。我们不能有效地成为一切方面的专家。如果我们尝试，它将摧毁我们。

Tim [28:04]: 蒂姆[28:04] ：

Oh, yes. That’s something that’s always a challenge. Trying to figure out which one of those things you should take a look at and which one of those things that you shouldn’t.

哦是的那总是一个挑战。试图弄清楚您应该看其中的哪一件，而不应该看其中的哪一件。

David: 大卫：

They’re also appealing.

他们也很吸引人。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Oh, yeah. That’s a tough one. I always find myself reaching for the tools that I need at the right time. Also, I’ve been realizing that it might not hurt to dive into things that are getting extremely popular very quickly. Not because I feel that I’m going to sink into the abyss of — I don’t know — if there were some sort of sea of skill-less web development titles. [Laughter] Because you learn things from it.

哦耶。那是一个艰难的过程。我总是发现自己在合适的时间寻求所需的工具。另外，我一直意识到，很快进入非常流行的事物可能不会有伤害。 Not because I feel that I'm going to sink into the abyss of — I don't know — if there were some sort of sea of skill-less web development titles. [Laughter] Because you learn things from it.

I love to use React as a great example. You can learn a lot about functional programming from React. You can learn about state management. You can even learn a little bit about design patterns. Do I use React currently on a large production web application? No. No, I don’t. But I might learn something if I dive into it. It might help my career better. It might help me with other things that come along later in the future.

I love to use React as a great example. You can learn a lot about functional programming from React. You can learn about state management. You can even learn a little bit about design patterns. Do I use React currently on a large production web application? No. No, I don't. But I might learn something if I dive into it. It might help my career better. It might help me with other things that come along later in the future.

David: 大卫：

For React, Insert, Backbone, or Angular, or whatever framework you want …

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yes. Exactly. They’re all the same. [Laughter] I’m just kidding. Please do not try to firebomb my apartment in Queens because of that terrible comment that I just made!

是。究竟。 They're all the same. [Laughter] I'm just kidding. Please do not try to firebomb my apartment in Queens because of that terrible comment that I just made!

David: 大卫：

I’m glad I live on the other side of the country now. [Chuckles] One of the other things that she was talking about (and I loved that you asked about this) was the nature of the trolling that people get in open source for releasing something and then not being the multi-limbed creature that can maintain and manage every aspect of it to suit every possible user out there.

I'm glad I live on the other side of the country now. [Chuckles] One of the other things that she was talking about (and I loved that you asked about this) was the nature of the trolling that people get in open source for releasing something and then not being the multi-limbed creature that can maintain and manage every aspect of it to suit every possible user out there.

That is certainly something that prevents people from even putting something out into the open source — this feeling that they’re going to then have to be responsible for the lifelong nurturing of this thing that they’ve put out into the world.

That is certainly something that prevents people from even putting something out into the open source — this feeling that they're going to then have to be responsible for the lifelong nurturing of this thing that they've put out into the world.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, I like how simple her answer was. I’ve read a couple of book-level blog posts and tweet threads about open-source guilt. The solution is a very simple one. It’s just a mental mountain to traverse. The idea of, Hey, your meaning does not come from this open-source project that you maintain. Don’t attach your desire to maintain it to guilt brought on by not nice people. I was trying to think of a better word for that.

Yeah, I like how simple her answer was. I've read a couple of book-level blog posts and tweet threads about open-source guilt. The solution is a very simple one. It's just a mental mountain to traverse. The idea of, Hey, your meaning does not come from this open-source project that you maintain. Don't attach your desire to maintain it to guilt brought on by not nice people. I was trying to think of a better word for that.

David: 大卫：

Trolls. Trolls, trolls, trolls.

Tim: 蒂姆：

There you go. It’s a very easy solution. It’s just one that takes consistent practice and remembering to be able to apply.

妳去 It's a very easy solution. It's just one that takes consistent practice and remembering to be able to apply.

David: 大卫：

Is the term open-source guilt the term that people are using these days for this?

Tim: 蒂姆：

That is the one that I hear. Again, I’m not very popular, cool. It could be wrong. That’s the one that I see on Twitter.

That is the one that I hear. Again, I'm not very popular, cool. It could be wrong. That's the one that I see on Twitter.

David: 大卫：

Tim, you’re cool enough, you’re popular enough, and doggone it, people like you.

Tim, you're cool enough, you're popular enough, and doggone it, people like you.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Thanks, David. Same to you as well.

David: 大卫：

We should see if we can put a link to one of those book-length blog posts that you’ve been reading about the subject in the show notes for this.

We should see if we can put a link to one of those book-length blog posts that you've been reading about the subject in the show notes for this.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yes, that will happen.

David: 大卫：

Look in the show notes for that. Open-source guilt. Don’t give in to it.

Look in the show notes for that. Open-source guilt. Don't give in to it.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Well, thank you so much for listening, everybody. We always enjoy getting to talk technology with all of you.

好，非常感谢大家的倾听。我们总是喜欢与大家交谈技术。

David: 大卫：

We would also like to thank SitePoint.com, and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat, with production help from Ralph Mason. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @versioningshow — and give us a rating on iTunes to let us know how we’re doing.

我们还要感谢SitePoint.com以及我们的制作人Adam Roberts和Ophelie Lechat，以及Ralph Mason的制作帮助。请随时在Twitter( @versioningshow)上向我们发送您的评论，并在iTunes上给我们评分，让我们知道我们的情况。

Tim: 蒂姆：

We’ll see you next time, and we hope you enjoyed this version.

下次见，我们希望您喜欢这个版本。