In this episode of the Versioning Show, Tim and David are joined by Michael Paris and Vince Ning, founders of Scaphold.io, a backend as a service for GraphQL. They discuss quitting your job and founding a startup, Y Combinator funding, making great products by “making great users”, the advantages of GraphQL over REST, capturing the zeitgeist, and disobeying parents.
在Versioning Show的这一集中，Tim和David和Scaphold.io的创始人Michael Paris和Vince Ning一起加入，Scaphold.io是GraphQL的后端服务。 他们讨论辞职并成立初创公司Y Combinator的资金，通过“创造出色的用户”来创造出色的产品，GraphQL相对于REST的优势，吸引时代精神，并且不服从父母。
显示笔记 (Show Notes)
Say hello on Twitter: @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom
在Twitter上问好： @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom
对话重点 (Conversation Highlights)
It’s just been a dream of ours to be a part of this whole startup community. It’s kind of this generational movement.
成为整个创业社区的一部分，这是我们的梦想。 这是这种世代相传的运动。
we called our parents, and I was like,
Dad, I’m about to quit my job,and he was like,Don’t do that.I was like,I’m going to do it,and the rest is history.我们打电话给我们的父母，我就像，
爸爸，我要辞掉工作，而他的想法是，不要那样做。我当时想，我要去做，剩下的就是历史了。
It didn’t make sense to me that every single time you wanted to start an app you had to go to Amazon and spin up web servers and databases and figure out security and figure out scalability and all these things that could really be sandboxed.
对我而言，每次启动一个应用程序都必须去亚马逊并启动Web服务器和数据库并弄清楚安全性和可扩展性以及所有这些真正可以沙盒化的东西，对我来说没有任何意义。
They pushed us to launch, pushed us to figure out growth, made us start thinking about metrics — and everything, you’ll find, is very metric driven. That’s one of the first things they preach is,
If you’re not talking to your customers, if you’re not figuring out what’s working, what’s not working, then you’re not going to be successful.他们推动了我们的发布，推动了我们寻找增长的动力，使我们开始考虑指标-一切，您会发现，都是由指标驱动的。 这是他们宣讲的第一件事，
如果您不与客户交谈，如果您不弄清楚什么在起作用，什么在不起作用，那么您就不会成功。
A lot of founders fall into the trap that they end up thinking they need to do all these different things, whether it be PR, whether it’ll be this, whether it be going to this meeting, going to that meeting, talking to this person. At the end of the day, it’s all about building a product that your users will love — which means talking to your customers, and it means growing the community around your platform.
许多创始人陷入陷阱，他们最终认为他们需要做所有这些不同的事情，无论是公关，是否会，是否要参加本次会议，参加该次会议，与之交谈人。 归根结底，这一切都是关于构建您的用户会喜欢的产品-这意味着与您的客户交谈，这意味着在您的平台周围发展社区。
You don’t want to make a great product. You want to make a great user.I love that idea. The product’s only as valuable as the user is able to make it, and that’s something that it took us a little while to figure out.
您不想制造出色的产品。您想成为一个伟大的用户。我喜欢这个主意。 该产品的价值仅在于用户能够制造的，这是我们花了一些时间才弄清楚的。
I think our early adopters were people that were very interested in GraphQL, and something that we had going for us early on is that it was timely. I think we caught this technology in its nascency, and it was something that we were in a cool position that we could help develop it.
我认为我们的早期采用者是对GraphQL非常感兴趣的人，而我们早期对我们的追求是适时的。 我认为我们对这项技术非常了解，可以帮助开发它。
成绩单 (Transcript)
-
David:
大卫：
-
Hey, what’s up everybody? This is M. David Green …
嘿，大家好吗？ 这是大卫·格林(M. David Green)……
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
… and this is Tim Evko …
……这是蒂姆·埃夫科……
David:
大卫：
-
… and you’re listening to episode 23 of the Versioning podcast.
…，您正在收听Versioning播客的第23集。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
This is a place where we get together to discuss the industry of the web, from development to design, with some of the people making it happen today and planning where it’s headed in the next version.
在这里，我们可以聚在一起讨论从开发到设计的网络行业，其中一些人将其付诸实践，并计划下一版的发展方向。
David:
大卫：
-
Today we’re talking with Michael Paris and Vince Ning, and they are the founders of a startup that’s a “backend as a service” for GraphQL, called Scaphold.io. Let’s go ahead and get this version started.
今天，我们正在与Michael Paris和Vince Ning聊天，他们是GraphQL的“后端即服务”创业公司Scaphold.io的创始人 。 让我们继续以启动此版本。
Michael, Vince, how are you doing today?
迈克尔，文斯，你今天好吗？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Great. Thanks for having us on the show.
大。 感谢您邀请我们参加演出。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Yeah, cool. Awesome to be here.
是的，很酷。 很棒在这里。
David:
大卫：
-
Cool. I wanted to thank you for joining us, and because this is The Versioning Show, we like to do something special. We’d like to ask you a philosophical question, and this is going to be for each of you.
凉。 我要感谢您加入我们，因为这是“版本显示”，我们希望做一些特别的事情。 我们想问您一个哲学问题，这将适合每个人。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Okay.
好的。
David:
大卫：
-
In your current careers, what version are you, and why?
您目前的职业是什么版本，为什么？
[Laughter]
[笑声]
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Let’s call it version 1.7.
我们将其称为1.7版。
David:
大卫：
-
Why?
为什么？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
We’re almost … Yeah, so I think of my version 1.0 or from 0 to 1, being the learning phase and the really early stage of my development, and we’re pretty recently out of college. We graduated about 2 years ago. I think of the stage after college getting me up to .7 and getting us through this first stage of Scaphold.io. And we’re still learning and still rapidly trying to absorb as much knowledge as we can, but I wouldn’t even say we’re quite to 2.0 quite yet.
我们差不多…是的，所以我想到的是1.0版或从0到1的版本，这是我的学习阶段，也是我开发的真正早期阶段，而我们最近刚大学毕业。 我们大约两年前毕业。 我想到大学毕业后的那个阶段，使我升至0.7，并使我们度过Scaphold.io的第一阶段。 而且我们仍在学习，并且仍在Swift尝试吸收尽可能多的知识，但是我什至不会说我们已经达到2.0。
David:
大卫：
-
What about you, Vince?
那你呢，文斯？
Vince:
文斯：
-
I would say on a scale of 0 to 100 versions, I would say I’m a version 10, probably. Very arbitrary, but just mentally, relatively, I’m at about a version 10. So basically the idea of that is 0 to 1 comes from just me growing up and learning how to code, learning how to build things, and then now it’s time to take it to the real show, the real deal in the industry — seeing what we can do with stuff that we learned in our formative years. So, like Michael said, we did just graduate from college, about almost two years out, but we’ve learned so much that I would say it’s past the 2, past the 3, about a 10, but there’s still a full career left. That’s the 10 to the 99 to the 100. That’s where I’m at right now.
我会说从0到100版本的规模，我可能会说我是10版本。 非常武断，但从精神上来说，我的版本大约是10。因此，基本上是0到1的想法来自我成长，学习编码，学习如何构建事物，然后才是是时候花时间进行真正的展示了，这是行业中的真正交易-看到我们可以用在我们成长初期学到的东西做些什么。 因此，就像迈克尔所说，我们刚刚大学毕业，已经快两年了，但是我们学到了很多东西，我想说它已经超过了2年，超过了3年，大约有10年，但是仍然还有完整的职业生涯。 那是10到99到100。这就是我现在的位置。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
It’s like the Island of Knowledge analogy: the more we learn, the more we realize we don’t know.
就像知识之岛的类比：我们学得越多，我们就知道越多。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Exactly.
究竟。
David:
大卫：
-
Cool. So you’re fresh out of college. Did you go to college together?
凉。 所以你刚大学毕业。 你一起上大学了吗？
Vince:
文斯：
-
We did. We did. We actually met our first year of college. We were just hanging out. I was friends with a bunch of his high school friends, and we spent a lot of time together, but not until fourth year did we start working together.
我们做到了。 我们做到了。 我们实际上遇到了我们大学的第一年。 我们刚刚出去玩。 我和他的一群高中朋友是朋友，我们在一起度过了很多时间，但是直到第四年我们才开始一起工作。
David:
大卫：
-
Did you study in engineering fields?
您是否在工程领域学习？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah. We both graduated with a computer science degree. Vince also double majored in economics, and I had a business minor.
是的 我们俩都获得了计算机科学学位。 文斯还攻读经济学双学位，而我有一个商务副修。
David:
大卫：
-
Well, hey, Tim. That makes these two pretty special among our guests, because usually our guests, although they work in tech, often we find that they have not had a background in studying engineering.
好吧，蒂姆 这使得这两个客人在我们的客人中显得很特别，因为通常我们的客人尽管在技术领域工作，但我们经常发现他们没有研究工程的背景。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yeah. In fact, both of them have at least 4 more degrees than I do, so that’s good for you guys.
是的 实际上，他们两个都比我高至少4度，所以这对你们来说是件好事。
David:
大卫：
-
So you’re working on a startup. That’s an interesting direction to go in these days. Clearly, the industry is full of fast-moving technologies, and some people go in as independents. Some people go in as engineers, and you decided to go found a company. Tell us a little about that and how you got started with that.
因此，您正在创业。 这些天来，这是一个有趣的方向。 显然，该行业充满了快速发展的技术，有些人是独立人士。 有些人以工程师的身份进入，而您决定去成立一家公司。 告诉我们一些有关的内容以及您如何开始的。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah, sure. When we graduated, we both had jobs at Microsoft, so the first … I think I lasted about 9 months. Vince was a little longer. When we first got into the industry, we were working for the big tech company. I used to work for SQL Server, SQL Azure, the cloud offering for databases at Microsoft. And then Vince worked for the internal tools and the financial systems. It’s always been a bug of ours. We’ve always had side projects, and in college, we pursued a couple entrepreneurial things and had some success. Some ideas were more successful than others, and we got to present at certain conferences and won some competitions. It’s something that’s always bit on to us early. It might be that we’re young and we haven’t learned otherwise yet, but from the day that we started at Microsoft it was very much,
All right. How do we get the idea to quit? Let’s figure out how we get out of this place.
Not to say it was a bad place to work! It was a great place to work, but we were willing to throw it all away.当然可以。 毕业后，我们俩都在Microsoft工作，所以第一次……我想我持续了大约9个月。 文斯有点长。 刚进入这个行业时，我们是在一家大型科技公司工作。 我曾经为SQL Server，SQL Azure和Microsoft的数据库云服务工作。 然后，文斯(Vince)为内部工具和财务系统工作。 这一直是我们的错误。 我们一直都有附带项目，在大学里，我们从事了一些创业活动，并取得了一些成功。 有些想法比其他想法更成功，因此我们必须出席某些会议并赢得一些比赛。 这始终是我们早日想到的事情。 可能是我们还很年轻，还没有学习其他东西，但是从我们在Microsoft创业之日起，
一切
都非常好。
我们如何戒掉这个主意？
让我们弄清楚我们如何离开这个地方。
并不是说这是一个糟糕的工作场所！ 这是一个工作的好地方，但我们愿意将其全部扔掉。
David [4:02]:
大卫[4:02] ：
-
I know how that is. Some people are oriented toward being employees somewhere, and some people are oriented toward running the show themselves.
我知道那是怎么回事。 有些人倾向于在某个地方当雇员，有些人倾向于自己经营表演。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Yeah. I think there is a stage in our lives, for me at least, where I would prefer a more stable job, 9–5 kind of deal, more predictable, but for now, I think we have the young energy in ourselves — 20 or so years old — we have all the light of day and night to work on these things with no families or responsibilities, or too many responsibilities, I’d say, to work on these things. It’s just been a dream of ours to be a part of this whole startup community. It’s kind of this generational movement.
是的 我认为我们的生活中至少有一个阶段，至少对我来说，我更喜欢稳定的工作，9-5种工作，更可预测，但就目前而言，我认为我们自己有年轻的活力-20岁或20岁。已有这么多年的历史了-我们白天和黑夜都有时间从事这些工作，而没有家人或责任，或者我承担的责任太多，无法从事这些工作。 成为整个创业社区的一部分，这是我们的梦想。 这是这种世代相传的运动。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah. We’ve lucked out as well. I mean, part of the reason that got us into the company was we had this idea about a little over a year ago, and we were working on it in our after hours. We were still working at Microsoft for a long time, and then we’d come home and we’d hack from 6 to midnight and then repeat. Go to work, do the same thing, and then it really was Y Combinator that got us to take the leap, because we actually applied to the YC Fellowship program and ended up getting it back in last March/last April. They basically were like,
Okay, why haven’t you quit yet?
是的 我们也很幸运。 我的意思是，让我们进入公司的部分原因是大约一年前，我们有了这个主意，我们在下班后进行了研究。 我们在微软工作了很长时间，然后回到家，从6点到午夜，然后重复进行。 上班，做同样的事情，然后是Y Combinator真正使我们取得了飞跃，因为我们实际上申请了YC奖学金计划，最终在去年三月/去年四月重新获得了它。 他们基本上是，
好吧，为什么还不辞职呢？
They were the ones that were … we called our parents, and I was like,
Dad, I’m about to quit my job,
and he was like,Don’t do that.
I was like,I’m going to do it,
and the rest is history.他们就是……我们给父母打电话了，我就像，
爸爸，我要辞职了，
而他就像，不要那样做。
我当时想，我要去做，
剩下的就是历史了。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Well, that certainly sounds intense. You two are the first people that we’ve spoken to that have gone through Y Combinator, so I’m sure we’ll have a ton of questions about that process. But first off, you mentioned Scaphold.io. Do you mind telling us a little bit about what that is, the problems you’re trying to solve, etc?
好吧，这听起来确实很激烈。 你们两个是我们采访过的第一个通过Y Combinator交流的人，所以我敢肯定我们会对这个过程有很多疑问。 但是首先，您提到了Scaphold.io。 您介意向我们介绍一下这是什么，您要解决的问题等吗？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Sure. The founding story goes that it was a product we were originally creating for ourselves. I mentioned that we had worked on a couple of projects in our past. We had done social media things. I had built essentially the craigslist for UVA students to trade books and all these things, and we found that often you recreate the same thing over and over again. Most applications have a lot of the same infrastructure behind them. It didn’t make sense to me that every single time you wanted to start an app you had to go to Amazon and spin up web servers and databases and figure out security and figure out scalability and all these things that could really be sandboxed.
当然。 创始故事说，这是我们最初为自己创造的产品。 我提到过，我们过去曾做过几个项目。 我们做了社交媒体的事情。 我基本上是为UVA学生建立了一个craigslist，用于交易书籍和所有这些东西，我们发现您经常会一遍又一遍地创建相同的东西。 大多数应用程序背后都有许多相同的基础结构。 对我而言，每次启动一个应用程序都必须去亚马逊并启动Web服务器和数据库并弄清楚安全性和可扩展性以及所有这些真正可以沙盒化的东西，对我来说没有任何意义。
The idea started with actually a Hacker News post that I saw first, and they were talking about this new technology called GraphQL. I dug into it, and I got Vince to start looking at it, and we really found out that this technology really improved upon the way that you could build client-side applications, but there was still a lot of headache on the back side. You still had to do a lot of the service architecture — a lot of the databases and backups and everything like that. So we decided,
Let’s build a system or a service that lets people get all the benefits of GraphQL, which are primarily seen from the client side, and then we’ll do all the nitty gritty stuff underneath to make it really easy to spin those systems up.
We’re essentially removing friction, allowing people to build data systems with GraphQL really quickly.这个想法实际上是从我首先看到的Hacker News帖子开始的，他们谈论的是称为GraphQL的新技术。 我研究了它，让Vince开始研究它，我们确实发现，该技术确实在您可以构建客户端应用程序的方式上得到了改进，但是在背面仍然有很多令人头疼的问题。 您仍然必须做很多服务架构-许多数据库和备份以及类似的工作。 因此，我们决定，
让我们构建一个系统或服务，让人们获得GraphQL的所有好处，这些好处主要是从客户端看到的，然后我们将在其下进行所有细粒度的操作，以使其真正易于旋转系统启动。
我们从根本上消除了摩擦，使人们能够真正快速地使用GraphQL构建数据系统。That’s what Scaphold does. In a matter of minutes, let’s say you wanted to build Instagram, for example. At a high level, you can think,
Okay, I have users, and I have posts, and I have comments. They have to relate to each other in certain ways.
When you’re an engineer, it doesn’t work that way. You’re worrying about all that stuff I was talking about. We allow you to think at that high level, and then you come to our system and you say,Okay, I need users and posts and comments, and they have these fields and they relate to each other in this way,
and our system spins up all of the messy stuff and then exposes this API to you that lets you immediately start building applications with GraphQL.Scaphold就是这样做的。 例如，在几分钟之内，您想构建Instagram。 在较高的级别上，您可以认为，
好的，我有用户，有帖子，也有评论。
它们必须以某些方式相互联系。
当您是工程师时，它就不会那样工作。 您担心我正在谈论的所有内容。 我们允许您从较高的层次进行思考，然后您进入我们的系统，然后说，好的，我需要用户，帖子和评论，并且它们具有这些字段并且以这种方式彼此关联，
并且我们的系统旋转整理所有凌乱的内容，然后向您提供此API，让您立即开始使用GraphQL构建应用程序。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
That sounds very cool. Just one level deeper … I’m so sorry. For any of our listeners who don’t quite understand how GraphQL works or what exactly it does, do you want to go a bit into that as well?
听起来很酷。 更深一层……我很抱歉。 对于我们任何不太了解GraphQL的工作原理或确切工作原理的听众，您是否也想谈一谈？
Vince:
文斯：
-
Sure. The history of GraphQL is there was a project. It’s a technology that was created at Facebook, I think in 2012, and they used it a lot internally, deployed in production to power all of their mobile apps, web apps, pretty much their entire infrastructure. As you can tell, it’s a very scalable production-ready solution. About last year or early 2015, so two years ago, they open-sourced this technology to the public to get everyone — all sorts of developers across the web — to start using this awesome new technology because they said,
Hey, it works great for us, and we’re one of the largest tech companies with the most data in the world. This could probably work for everyone else.
当然。 GraphQL的历史是有一个项目。 我认为这是Facebook于2012年发明的一项技术，他们在内部大量使用了该技术，并在生产中部署了该技术，以为其所有移动应用程序，Web应用程序以及几乎整个基础架构提供支持。 如您所知，这是一个非常可扩展的生产就绪解决方案。 大约在去年或2015年初，也就是两年前，他们向公众开放了这项技术，以使所有人(网络上的各种开发人员)都开始使用这项令人敬畏的新技术，因为他们说：“
嘿，对于我们，并且我们是世界上拥有最多数据的最大科技公司之一。
这可能适用于其他所有人。
So they open-sourced it, and this is when Michael brought the idea of GraphQL and told me about it. And we started picking at it, and thought it was an amazing idea where you just have one API to interact with all of your data. And this is where the birth of this service idea came from, where you can not have to worry about generating all of the verbosity that comes with creating a GraphQL server and being able to leverage the benefits of it from the client side.
所以他们开源了，这是Michael提出GraphQL的想法并告诉我的时候。 我们开始进行选择，并认为这是一个了不起的主意，您只有一个API即可与所有数据进行交互。 这就是该服务理念的诞生地，您不必担心生成GraphQL服务器所产生的所有冗长性，并能够从客户端利用其优势。
Michael [8:34]:
迈克尔[8:34] ：
-
Right. The common misconception, though, is that GraphQL is a database. One thing that I want to clear is up is that GraphQL is not a database. If your listeners are familiar with a REST API, GraphQL is essentially REST 2.0. It sits at the very front of the server, and it’s the language that the client uses to communicate with the server, but it actually doesn’t really know much about the data. That’s what we provide. We take this awesome technology that sits at the very front, and then our customers speak GraphQL to us, and then we speak to different databases and APIs that allow us to present the data in a really friendly way to the client via GraphQL.
对。 但是，常见的误解是GraphQL是数据库。 我要清除的一件事是GraphQL 不是数据库。 如果您的听众熟悉REST API，则GraphQL本质上就是REST 2.0。 它位于服务器的最前端，它是客户端与服务器进行通信所使用的语言，但是实际上它并不十分了解数据。 那就是我们提供的。 我们采用最先进的技术，然后我们的客户与我们交谈GraphQL，然后我们与不同的数据库和API交谈，使我们能够以真正友好的方式通过GraphQL向客户展示数据。
David:
大卫：
-
That’s a good way to explain it. I was going to ask. I’ve heard people talking about GraphQL and talking about it in comparison to REST, and it also seems to be that it started to come into the zeitgeist right about the same time people started talking about React.
这是解释它的好方法。 我正要问。 我听说有人谈论GraphQL并将其与REST进行比较，而且似乎是人们开始谈论React的同时，它也开始进入时代时代。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah. That’s another inteRESTing thing. I don’t think it’s coincidence that both of those projects come out of Facebook. And it’s something that we’ve found more and more. The more that we’ve used GraphQL, it almost inspires you to think in a more functional way. You start thinking about React preaches this uni-direct, this single flow of data — this one-way, one-directional flow of data. GraphQL abides by that. It essentially allows you to traverse this tree of data, and if you think of your application as a tree of components — which React inspires you to do — it’s really a one-to-one mapping between a GraphQL API and a React application.
是的 那是另一种inteRESTing的东西。 我认为这两个项目都不来自Facebook并非偶然。 这是我们越来越发现的东西。 我们使用GraphQL的次数越多，几乎可以激发您以更实用的方式进行思考。 您开始考虑React宣扬这种单向，单数据流—这种单向，单向数据流。 GraphQL遵守这一点。 本质上，它使您可以遍历这棵数据树，并且如果您将应用程序视为组件树(React激发您去做)，它实际上是GraphQL API和React应用程序之间的一对一映射。
You’ll find that when you build React apps with GraphQL, you’re often writing better code than you would if you were trying to retrofit a React app with REST or really anything else.
您会发现，当使用GraphQL构建React应用程序时，编写的代码通常比尝试使用REST或其他任何东西来改进React应用程序时编写的代码更好。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
You mentioned Y Combinator. I want to ask a little bit about that. What’s it like? [Laughter] How was the process for you guys?
您提到了Y组合器。 我想问一点。 它像什么？ [笑声]你们的过程怎么样？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
This is actually our second run through. We did the fellowship back this past summer, and we’re based out of Seattle — because we were working at Microsoft and we had a house. The fellowship is a remote program, and they actually changed it recently. I think we were the last batch of the previous iteration of the fellowship program. But that essentially was younger-stage companies that were in their early, early development phases. We went into our interview with a functional prototype. We hadn’t launched yet. They pushed us to launch, pushed us to figure out growth, made us start thinking about metrics — and everything, you’ll find, is very metric driven. That’s one of the first things they preach is,
If you’re not talking to your customers, if you’re not figuring out what’s working, what’s not working, then you’re not going to be successful.
这实际上是我们的第二次尝试。 去年夏天，我们进行了研究金计划，我们总部设在西雅图-因为我们在Microsoft工作并且有一所房子。 该研究金是一个远程程序，实际上他们最近对其进行了更改。 我认为我们是奖学金计划先前迭代的最后一批。 但这基本上是处于早期，早期开发阶段的年轻阶段的公司。 我们接受了功能原型的采访。 我们还没有启动。 他们推动了我们的发布，推动了我们寻找增长的动力，使我们开始考虑指标-一切，您会发现，都是由指标驱动的。 这是他们宣讲的第一件事，
如果您不与客户交谈，如果您不弄清楚什么在起作用，什么在不起作用，那么您就不会成功。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Yeah.
是的
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Then we ended up going through the fellowship program last summer, had some success, got a lot of early adopters on the platform, and then we actually reapplied to Y Combinator after the fellowship, because we hadn’t had enough. It was a 2-month program; we wanted more. We got accepted into this current winter batch. We’re actually in a house right now. 3 companies are living in this house all in our winter batch. The one thing is it’s just a lot of work. You’re working all the time, and that’s really what they preach — you’ve got to be metrics driven. You’ve got to be talking to your customers, but it’s really a 3-month sprint and it’s growth. 10% every week. If you can get more … They want you to 10x in 3 months. They’re just pushing you to really figure out what’s working, and then to keep going.
然后，我们最终通过奖学金计划会在去年夏天，取得了一些成绩，得到了很多平台上尝鲜，然后我们实际上团契后重新应用到Y组合，因为我们没有足够的。 这是一个为期两个月的课程； 我们想要更多。 我们已被当前冬季批次接受。 我们现在实际上在房子里。 我们冬天的批次中，有3家公司都住在这所房子里。 一件事是这只是很多工作。 您一直在工作，而这正是他们所倡导的-您必须以指标为导向。 您必须要与客户交流，但这实际上是3个月的冲刺，而且还在不断增长。 每周10％。 如果您可以获得更多……他们希望您在3个月内提高10倍。 他们只是在推动您真正弄清楚什么在起作用，然后继续前进。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Yeah. There’s not much magic in the program. It’s just you go in, they tell you,
You need to just work really hard to work at one focused goal.
A lot of founders fall into the trap that they end up thinking they need to do all these different things, whether it be PR, whether it’ll be this, whether it be going to this meeting, going to that meeting, talking to this person. At the end of the day, it’s all about building a product that your users will love — which means talking to your customers, and it means growing the community around your platform.是的 该程序没有太多魔术。 他们告诉您，只是您进去而已，
您需要非常努力地工作才能实现一个目标明确的目标。
许多创始人陷入陷阱，他们最终认为他们需要做所有这些不同的事情，无论是公关，是否会，是否要参加本次会议，参加该次会议，与之交谈人。 归根结底，这一切都是关于构建您的用户会喜欢的产品-这意味着与您的客户交谈，这意味着在您的平台周围发展社区。
David [12:14]:
大卫[12:14] ：
-
So you two are the founders, and you’ve started this company. You’re living in this house and you’re building this thing actively. Is the company limited to just you two at this point?
你们两个是创始人，而您已经成立了这家公司。 您住在这所房子里，并且正在积极地建造这东西。 此时公司仅限于两个吗？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
We have a couple of other people helping us. We’ve reached out to a student at Wash U —
我们还有其他几个人在帮助我们。 我们已经联系了Wash U的一名学生-
Vince:
文斯：
-
Washington University in St. Louis.
圣路易斯华盛顿大学。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah, Washington St. Louis, and we have a student at MIT, and then actually a woman that lives in my home town of Virginia Beach that was involved. They’re doing a great job helping us with marketing and outreach and finding relevant people in the space and doing a lot of the things that … We build most of the product, and then they’re helping us smooth out the edges, and helping us figure out how to track our metrics best and things like that.
是的，华盛顿圣路易斯，我们在麻省理工学院有一个学生，然后实际上是一个住在我家乡弗吉尼亚海滩的女士。 他们做得很出色，可以帮助我们进行市场营销和拓展活动，并在该领域找到相关人员，并做很多事情……我们生产大部分产品，然后他们正在帮助我们理顺边缘，并帮助我们找出了如何最好地跟踪我们的指标以及类似的方法。
David:
大卫：
-
I’m curious how the logistics of something like that would work. Because the finances, the expense of getting people involved in something like that while you’re still essentially students on a fellowship building this thing.
我很好奇这样的物流如何运作。 因为财务，花钱让人们参与类似的事情，而实际上您仍然是学生，他们正在研究建立这件事。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah. I think we were lucky. I think that the people we found to help us really believe in the product, and it’s something that they almost came and they were willing to work for less because we’re a young company. We’re still trying to bootstrap our financials and everything, but they were very much willing to put in the work for perceived gains in the future without us having to pay the $100,000 that Microsoft would pay.
是的 我认为我们很幸运。 我认为我们找到的帮助我们的人真正相信该产品，因为他们是一家年轻的公司，所以他们几乎来了，他们愿意花更少的钱工作。 我们仍在努力引导自己的财务状况和所有事情，但是他们非常愿意为将来的预期收益投入工作，而无需我们支付微软会付的100,000美元。
David:
大卫：
-
That’s true. It’s expensive to get people working for you.
确实如此。 让人们为您工作很昂贵。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Absolutely.
绝对。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Coming from an engineering background into now running your own company, are there any lessons that really hit you guys the hardest when you were just getting started in this new phase of your lives?
从工程学背景到现在经营自己的公司，当您刚刚进入人生的新阶段时，是否有任何课程对您造成的影响最大？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
The biggest thing for me was I always wanted to build product, and I think we found ourselves in a situation where we have a great product, but it’s so much more involved around community than I ever thought. So it’s very much now we’re learning how do we get the community more involved, and how do we make the people who that are building on the platform … I heard this great quote. I don’t want to curse, but it’s this book called
Badass
. They pitch it as,You don’t want to make a great product. You want to make a great user.
I love that idea. The product’s only as valuable as the user is able to make it, and that’s something that it took us a little while to figure out.对我来说，最大的事情就是我一直想生产产品，我认为我们处在拥有优质产品的情况下，但是与社区合作比我想象的要多得多。 因此，现在非常重要的是，我们正在学习如何使社区更多地参与进来，以及如何使在平台上建立团队的人……我听到了这句话。 我不想骂人，但这就是这本书，叫
Badass
。 他们把它当作“您不想制造出色的产品”。
您想成为一个伟大的用户。
我喜欢这个主意。 该产品的价值仅在于用户能够制造的，这是我们花了一些时间才弄清楚的。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Yeah. I’m going to agree with Michael on that one. It’s one of those things where we’re both product-driven people, and we want to make the best product, so we spend a lot of time doing that, but then don’t end up telling people about the new features that we have. So what ends up happening is we have all these features that no one knows about, and at the end of the day, it’s just going to be stowed away in a closet. That’s what we’re trying to focus more on now — to try to build this community, tell people about what we’re doing, be more transparent and be more user-driven about our features.
是的 我要在这一点上同意迈克尔。 这都是我们都是产品驱动型人员的事情之一，我们想生产出最好的产品，所以我们花了很多时间来做，但是最后不要告诉人们我们拥有的新功能。 因此，最终发生的事情是我们拥有没人知道的所有这些功能，最终，这些功能将被存放在壁橱中。 这就是我们现在要重点关注的问题–试图建立这个社区，向人们介绍我们在做什么，变得更加透明，并且用户对我们的功能更加关注。
David:
大卫：
-
It’s a challenge, because sometimes it feels like you’re putting the cart before the horse trying to get people involved in something that you don’t feel, as the founders, that it’s ready to show.
这是一个挑战，因为有时候感觉就像您在把马车摆在马匹前面，试图让人们参与到创始人看来并不觉得可以准备的事情中。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Exactly.
究竟。
David:
大卫：
-
How do you get past that? How do you get those first enthusiastic users to see the vision behind something that is still definitely in its lean, early stages?
您如何克服呢？ 您如何让那些最初的热心用户看到仍然处于App.svelte早期阶段的事物背后的愿景？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
I think it goes back to the zeitgeist you were talking about. I think our early adopters were people that were very inteRESTed in GraphQL, and something that we had going for us early on is that it was timely. I think we caught this technology in its nascency, and it was something that we were in a cool position that we could help develop it. The people that came to us would be like,
Yeah. I wanted to build something with GraphQL, and then I googled GraphQL and I found you guys.
我认为这可以追溯到您所谈论的时代精神。 我认为我们的早期采用者是对GraphQL十分了解的人员，而我们早期对我们的追求是适时的。 我认为我们对这项技术非常了解，可以帮助开发它。 来找我们的人会是，
是的。
我想用GraphQL构建一些东西，然后用谷歌搜索GraphQL，发现你们。
It’s stuff like that. The technology was driving the early adopters. Now we’re trying to show the world that GraphQL is the better way of building these things, and then we’re pitching our new narrative around rapid product development, rapid application development. You can get things going so much faster. You can build four apps at the same time, and A/B test totally different ideas just because you have a platform like this.
这样的东西。 该技术正在推动早期采用者。 现在，我们试图向世界展示GraphQL是构建这些东西的更好方法，然后我们围绕快速的产品开发，快速的应用程序开发发布新的叙述。 您可以使事情进展得更快。 您可以同时构建四个应用程序，而A / B测试完全不同的想法只是因为您拥有这样的平台。
David:
大卫：
-
Can you encapsulate for our listeners what is the advantage of GraphQL over REST? What makes it REST 2.0?
您能为我们的听众封装GraphQL相比REST有什么优势吗？ 是什么使它成为REST 2.0？
Michael [15:48]:
迈克尔[15:48] ：
-
Sure. The thing that does it for me is it has a type system. Too many times have I been trying to consume a REST API, and the only way to understand how to use a REST API is twofold. Either you go read pages and pages of documentation, which then the company that puts out the REST API has to maintain a lot of documentation, and that’s really the only way to figure out,
Okay. What is /tracks on soundcloud.com accepting?
When I make a POST request, what does it want, and what’s it going to give back? You have no idea unless you go read documentation.当然。 对我来说，这是一个类型系统。 我尝试使用REST API的次数太多了，而了解如何使用REST API的唯一方法是双重的。 您要么阅读页面，要么阅读文档页面，然后发布REST API的公司必须维护大量文档，而这确实是找出
答案
的唯一方法，好吧。
soundcloud.com上的/ tracks接受什么？
当我发出POST请求时，它想要什么，它将返回什么？ 除非您阅读文档，否则您一无所知。The other way is to use an SDK. These REST APIs are so difficult to use that people have to actually provide software to let people use them. So GraphQL changes the game, and it provides this type system, and that’s huge for developers because it allows you to actually introspect the schema, which means that at any given time I can see exactly what’s going in and exactly what’s coming out with full clarity. I can completely understand the API just by looking at simple tools.
另一种方法是使用SDK。 这些REST API很难使用，以至于人们必须实际提供允许人们使用它们的软件。 因此GraphQL改变了游戏规则，并提供了这种类型的系统，这对开发人员来说是巨大的，因为它允许您实际对模式进行内部检查，这意味着在任何给定的时间，我都可以完全清楚地看到正在发生的事情和即将发生的事情。 通过查看简单的工具，我可以完全理解API。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Yeah. I want to expand on the SDK thing a little more. GraphQL queries are all made with strings, so you can make it from any sort of client-side networking library, whether it be cURL or jQuery or anything. Whether it be mobile web or IoT. That’s really cool, because we actually just launched this new VR tutorial so you can build VR apps and AR apps on Scaphold as well. The idea is we don’t have to provide any proprietary SDKs because everything is made with a normal POST request with a string appended to the content body of the payload. Yeah.
是的 我想进一步扩展SDK方面的内容。 GraphQL查询都是用字符串进行的，因此您可以从任何种类的客户端网络库中进行查询，无论它是cURL还是jQuery或任何其他形式。 无论是移动网络还是物联网。 这真的很棒，因为我们实际上刚刚启动了这个新的VR教程，因此您也可以在Scaphold上构建VR应用程序和AR应用程序。 我们的想法是，我们不必提供任何专有的SDK，因为所有内容都是通过普通的POST请求完成的，并且在有效内容的内容主体上附加了字符串。 是的
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
I could talk about this all day. There’s more benefits. The type system’s huge. There’s also cool things with traversing relationships. This can get kind of in the weeds, but essentially if you’re thinking in REST, if you want to get a user’s profile, then you’re going to grab the user and then you’re going to get a list of IDs and then you’re going to go make ten requests to get all the posts of that user. Then you’re going to get those IDs that are related to the comments, and then you’re going to go get the comments.
我可以整天谈论这个。 还有更多好处。 类型系统巨大。 遍历关系也很有趣。 这可能有点麻烦，但是从本质上讲，如果您正在考虑在REST中，如果要获取用户的个人资料，则将要抓住用户，然后将获得ID列表和那么您将要发出十个请求以获取该用户的所有帖子。 然后，您将获得与评论相关的ID，然后将获得评论。
GraphQL gives us really easy language to basically say in one request,
I want my user and my posts and my comments. Also, I’m going to give these filters and these pagination arguments.
And then the language aspect makes it concise and also standard. Instead of Google having a different REST API than Facebook, having a different REST API than Twitter, when you use GraphQL, it’s all GraphQL. You can structure the schema however you want, but you’re still writing the same language to interact with the data. It’s almost the SQL for the web. It’s like the standard way of interacting with these complex data structures, but you can also connect it anywhere. It’s more freeform than something like SQL, because you can put SQL behind it, you can put a Elasticsearch behind it, you can put Mongo DB behind it. You can really put anything you want.GraphQL提供了一种非常简单的语言，基本上可以在一个请求中说，
我想要我的用户，我的帖子和我的评论。
另外，我将提供这些过滤器和这些分页参数。
然后，语言方面使其变得简洁而又规范。 当您使用GraphQL时，Google不再具有与Facebook不同的REST API，而与Twitter具有不同的REST API，而是全部GraphQL。 您可以根据需要构造模式，但是您仍在编写相同的语言来与数据进行交互。 这几乎是网络SQL。 就像与这些复杂数据结构进行交互的标准方式一样，但是您也可以将其连接到任何地方。 它比SQL之类的格式更自由，因为您可以将SQL放在后面，可以将Elasticsearch放在后面，也可以将Mongo DB放在后面。 您可以放任何您想要的东西。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Have you heard from people using your product who have really started to get involved and love it as well?
您是否从使用您的产品的人那里真正开始参与并喜欢它的人那里听说过？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah. We’ve spent a lot of time talking to our customers. We have a pretty large European publisher moving onto the platform, and they’re using it for a lot of serving. They essentially run lifestyle magazines and stuff like that, and they were one of the people that came out and were like,
I really want to use GraphQL,
and then they found us. We provide these tools that you instantly spin up these GraphQL systems. They love it from that. It’s 0 to production API in 15 minutes instead of 3 months.是的 我们已经花了很多时间与客户交流。 我们有一个相当大的欧洲发行商正在使用该平台，他们正在使用它提供大量服务。 他们基本上经营生活方式杂志和类似的东西，他们是其中的一员，
我真的很想使用GraphQL，
然后他们找到了我们。 我们提供了这些工具，您可以立即启动这些GraphQL系统。 他们从那开始喜欢它。 15分钟(而不是3个月)内生产API的费用为0。
David:
大卫：
-
I noticed that you also have a lot of tie-ins to other companies that expose their APIs. Are these specific GraphQL APIs that they’re exposing?
我注意到您还与其他公开其API的公司有很多联系。 这些特定的GraphQL API是否公开？
Vince:
文斯：
-
No, they’re not actually. The cool part is not only can you hook up a database or a different REST endpoint, you can hook up a variety of these and mix and match them. Right now we hook up my SQL database along with these integrations that you just mentioned, and those are all traditional REST endpoints. Whether it be Stripe, one of our most popular ones, or Auth 0 for authentication, we made wrappers around their REST endpoints and given you an exact mirror of that in a GraphQL translation, in a GraphQL translated way.
不，实际上不是。 最酷的部分不仅是您可以连接数据库或其他REST端点，还可以连接各种数据库并进行混合和匹配。 现在，我们将您刚刚提到的这些集成与我SQL数据库连接起来，这些都是传统的REST端点。 不管是最流行的Stripe还是身份验证的Auth 0，我们都会围绕它们的REST端点进行包装，并以GraphQL转换的方式在GraphQL转换中为您提供确切的镜像。
Instead of having to interact with all these different services that you normally would to build an app nowadays, you just have to interact with one API through GraphQL with one language and get data from 18 different places without even knowing about it.
不必与当今通常需要构建一个应用程序的所有这些不同的服务进行交互，您只需通过GraphQL用一种语言与一个API进行交互，并从18个不同的地方获取数据，甚至都不知道它。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Right. A good analogy would be the Babel fish from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. We speak GraphQL to our customers, and we can go behind the scenes and talk 50 different languages. The customers only speak GraphQL. They get this universal translator of sorts to the data across the web.
对。 一个很好的类比是《银河系漫游指南》中的通天塔鱼。 我们与客户说GraphQL，我们可以在后台讲50种不同的语言。 客户只说GraphQL。 他们将这种通用的翻译器转换为Web上的数据。
David [20:00]:
大卫[20:00] ：
-
As a developer, what do I have to put in my ear?
作为开发人员，我必须注意什么？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
We’ve got these VR apps coming out. Hopefully one of those.
我们已经推出了这些VR应用程序。 希望其中之一。
[Laughter]
[笑声]
David:
大卫：
-
Very cool. One of the things that really interests me is that this is built on technologies that have been open-sourced, and I’m curious about your interaction with the open source community.
很酷。 我真正感兴趣的一件事是，它建立在开源技术的基础上，我很好奇您与开源社区的互动。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah. It’s something that we’re getting more and more into. A lot of our open source thus far has been learning content. We just actually rolled out a community page today that we’re really encouraging people to contribute to, just trying to grow this knowledge of a hub for GraphQL, practical GraphQL knowledge. We’re also getting more involved with the Apollo project. We’re trying to make some contributions there, because we love … Apollo is a GraphQL project coming out of the guys that made Meteor JS. They’re doing some really awesome stuff, building a lot of cool developer tools, and that’s one project in particular that we’d love to start contributing to more.
是的 这是我们越来越多的关注。 到目前为止，我们的许多开源都在学习内容。 今天，我们实际上刚刚推出了一个社区页面，我们实际上是在鼓励人们做出贡献，只是试图增加对GraphQL中心的了解，即实用的GraphQL知识。 我们也越来越多地参与Apollo项目。 我们正在尝试在这里做出一些贡献，因为我们很喜欢……Apollo是一个GraphQL项目，它来自于Meteor JS的开发。 他们正在做一些很棒的事情，构建了许多很酷的开发人员工具，尤其是我们希望开始为更多项目做出贡献的一个项目。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Yeah. So far, I guess most of our content is boilerplate tutorial, so we go a step further than just the back-end API that we expose to you. We help you by getting started with whatever framework you want — whether it be React with Apollo, React with Relay, Angular 2 with Apollo, all different flavors and combinations of frameworks, so that you only have to go in, git clone it, change one line in the config file to point to your GraphQL API, and everything works. It’s pretty magical in that aspect, and we want to continue to do more of that and get the community more involved as well, which is the inspiration for this community page is to collect and create an aggregation of all of these different things that people are building on top of our platform, so that other people can benefit from it.
是的 到目前为止，我想我们的大部分内容都是样板教程，因此，我们不仅向您提供了后端API，而且更进一步。 我们通过开始使用所需的框架为您提供帮助-无论是使用Apollo的React，使用Relay的React，使用Apollo的Angular 2，所有不同的样式以及框架的组合，因此您都必须进入，git克隆，更改配置文件中的一行指向您的GraphQL API，一切正常。 在这方面，这非常神奇，我们希望继续做更多的事情，并使社区也更多地参与进来，这是本社区页面的灵感所在，是收集并创建人们所拥有的所有这些不同事物的集合。建立在我们平台之上，以便其他人可以从中受益。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
For any of our listeners who are interested, where can people connect with you guys, learn more about your startup and learn more about GraphQL?
对于我们感兴趣的任何听众，人们可以在哪里与您建立联系，进一步了解您的创业公司，以及进一步了解GraphQL？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Sure. If you go to Scaphold … and I’ll just explain the idea behind that really quick, because people are always curious. The idea when we first started the company was we’re the foundation upon which everyone builds, so the immediate thing that we thought of was scaffolding. We have these beautiful buildings in New York and Seattle and San Francisco, but they don’t just grow out of nothing. They have this scaffolding, this messy scaffolding that goes up around them, and then slowly this beautiful building comes out of it. That was a cool analogy that we really liked, and we attached to early on. The PH comes from GraphQL. So it’s scaphold.io/community would be the best place to start learning about this stuff. You can also join our Slack. If you go to that website, there’s a link directly to join our Slack. There’s a bunch of people on there talking about GraphQL things, talking about Scaphold things, all over the place — just general web development stuff from React to Angular to React Native, and now even more iOS and Android as that tool set gets more developed.
当然。 如果您去Scaphold…，我会很快解释一下这个想法，因为人们总是很好奇。 刚成立公司时的想法是，我们是每个人赖以建立的基础，因此，我们想到的当下就是脚手架。 我们在纽约，西雅图和旧金山拥有这些美丽的建筑，但它们并非一无是处。 他们有这个脚手架，这个凌乱的脚手架在他们周围，然后这个美丽的建筑慢慢地从里面出来。 这是我们真正喜欢的一个很酷的类比，我们很早就加入了。 PH来自GraphQL。 因此，这是scaphold.io/community将是开始学习此内容的最佳位置。 您也可以加入我们的Slack。 如果您访问该网站，则直接有一个链接可以加入我们的Slack。 到处都有很多人在谈论GraphQL事情，谈论Scaphold事情–只是从React到Angular到React Native的一般Web开发内容，随着该工具集的不断发展，现在甚至还有更多的iOS和Android。
David:
大卫：
-
Very cool. Well, I’m looking forward to digging in and finding out a little bit more about this, and I believe you have a free tier as well, right?
很酷。 好吧，我期待对此进行深入研究并找到更多信息，我相信您也有免费套餐，对吗？
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
We do.
我们的确是。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Yeah. We have a pretty large free tier that extends your database storage, a good amount of traffic. The idea is we wanted to give you a fat-free tier to help you with your development phase. We don’t want you to feel the restriction of having to pay for anything when you’re just starting your app, and then once you launch, the idea is you’ll probably be consuming enough data, saving enough data on our servers or files such that you’re only paying $25 a month at the end of the day. It’s a flat fee. Most startups don’t know how much data they want to use, so we just bucket it in that way, and I think it helps clear the confusion a lot for a lot of these younger startups because they can project,
I’m only going to pay $25 for my infrastructure,
which is amazing, which not a lot of people can say.是的 我们有一个相当大的免费层，可扩展您的数据库存储，大量流量。 我们的想法是，我们希望为您提供一个无脂层，以帮助您完成开发阶段。 我们不希望您在刚启动应用程序时感到必须支付任何费用的限制，然后一旦启动，您的想法就是您可能会消耗足够的数据，将足够的数据保存在我们的服务器或这样的文件，这样您一天结束时每月只需支付25美元。 这是固定费用。 大多数初创公司都不知道他们要使用多少数据，所以我们只是以这种方式进行存储，我认为对于许多年轻的初创公司来说，它可以消除很多困惑，因为他们可以预测，
我只想花费25美元购买我的基础设施，
这真是了不起，很多人都不会说。Our third tier is the business tier, which scales up infinitely, and that’s more for the larger enterprise customers who have a lot of data, who can predict how much traffic they’re getting and, at scale, they get a much better value.
我们的第三层是业务层，它可以无限扩展，这对于拥有大量数据，可以预测所获得的流量并在规模上获得更大价值的大型企业客户而言更为重要。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Right. We have some cool features coming down the pipeline that may bump up some more premium services, but we’ll see.
对。 我们即将推出一些很酷的功能，这些功能可能会带来更多高级服务，但我们会看到的。
David:
大卫：
-
Of course.
当然。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Stay tuned.
敬请关注。
David:
大卫：
-
Again, thank you so much for joining us on the show. It’s been really interesting talking with you, and good luck with the startup.
再次感谢您加入我们的节目。 与您交谈非常有趣，并且祝您创业顺利。
Vince:
文斯：
-
Thanks a lot.
非常感谢。
Michael:
迈克尔：
-
Yeah. Thanks so much for having us. This was really fun.
是的 非常感谢您有我们。 这真的很有趣。
[Musical interlude]
[音乐插曲]
Tim [24:02]:
提姆[24:02] ：
-
I always get a brief moment of terror when I hear about people quitting their jobs and just going for it, especially at such a young age. I can’t talk. I’m around the same age as them, but still it’s hard to imagine. I mean, you really have to believe in your product or your service to be able to go and do something like that.
当我听到人们辞职而去找工作时，我总是会感到短暂的恐惧，尤其是在这么小的年龄。 我不会说话 我和他们的年龄差不多，但是仍然很难想象。 我的意思是，您确实必须相信您的产品或服务才能去做类似的事情。
David:
大卫：
-
I think it’s a personality thing, too. There are just some people who are more inclined to going off and trying something experimental and exciting, as opposed to people who are looking for something more stable and where somebody else is taking on a lot of the market risk and just paying you a paycheck on a regular basis.
我认为这也是一种个性。 只是有些人更倾向于尝试并尝试一些实验性的和令人兴奋的事情，而不是那些正在寻找更稳定的东西的人，而其他人则承担着很大的市场风险，只是向您支付薪水定期地
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yeah. I mean, there is definitely a risk factor in that. I think there are also some of us who just haven’t had an idea yet. Yeah, it’s interesting, and it really takes a lot of discipline, which you wouldn’t think. It takes a lot of discipline to be able to do that, because once you make the commitment and,
Okay, I’m going to quit my job no matter what you say, Dad. I’m going to go and do it,
you really have to make sure that you have your stuff together, that you have a plan, that you commit to it, that you’re now waking up every day on time and being your own boss. That’s not an easy thing to do.是的 我的意思是，肯定有一个风险因素。 我认为我们当中有些人还没有一个想法。 是的，这很有趣，而且确实需要很多纪律，这是您不会想到的。 要做到这一点需要很多纪律，因为一旦您作出了承诺，
好吧，爸爸，不管您怎么说，我都会辞职。
我要去做，
你真的必须确保把所有东西都放在一起，有计划，有承诺，现在每天准时起床，做自己的老板。 这不是一件容易的事。
David:
大卫：
-
No, tell me about it. I’ve been working independently now for at least two years, but before that I was a full-time employee at several different companies. My dad is still crazy about the fact that I did that.
Why aren’t you going out and getting a salary and working at a job,
and I keep telling him,Dad, the world doesn’t really work that way anymore.
This is the gig economy. This is the way things are, and you’re much more stable and much more secure if you’re out there selling yourself to multiple employers. If one person ends up no longer needing your services, there’s another person out there or five other people or 20 other people who are out there getting your services and you have a more stable income and also a closer connexion to the market so that you know that what you’re providing is actually what the market needs.不，告诉我这件事。 我现在已经独立工作了至少两年，但是在那之前，我是多家不同公司的全职员工。 我父亲仍然对我这样做的事实感到疯狂。
你为什么不出去赚薪水并从事一份工作，
我一直告诉他，爸爸，世界真的不再那样工作了。
这就是零工经济。 事情就是这样，如果您将自己卖给多个雇主，您就会更加稳定和安全。 如果一个人最终不再需要您的服务，那么会有另一个人或另外五个人或另外20个人在那里获得您的服务，您的收入会更稳定，并且与市场的联系也更紧密，以便您知道您所提供的实际上就是市场需求。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
That helps a lot in our industry as well, because there are, I think, Dave Rupert on the Shop Talk Show likes to refer to them as “dark matter developers” — people who have been at it a long time and are really talented but there’s just no traces of them. Those people are fine. They always will be fine, but I’ve always preferred branding myself across the web, because it helps mainly just to come across more opportunities. For example, SitePoint: that definitely wouldn’t have happened had I not been interested and had my finger on the pulse of the community and responding to things and replying to stuff on Twitter. A portfolio site always helps. But those opportunities do, I believe, tend to present themselves more when you are making an effort to brand yourself in this industry.
这对我们行业也有很大帮助，因为我认为Shop Talk Show上的Dave Rupert喜欢将他们称为“暗物质开发人员”，这些人工作了很长时间并且确实很有才华，但没有任何痕迹。 那些人很好。 他们总是会没事的，但是我一直偏爱在网络上为自己打品牌，因为它主要是帮助您找到更多机会。 例如，SitePoint：如果我不感兴趣，并且让我关注社区的脉搏，并在Twitter上回应和回复内容，那绝对不会发生。 投资组合网站总是有帮助的。 但是，我认为，当您努力在这个行业中树立自己的品牌时，这些机会的确会展示更多自己。
David:
大卫：
-
It’s not only about them presenting themselves. It’s about you saying yes, because these opportunities can present themselves in very subtle and ingenious ways that you don’t even notice. If you’re not out there actively saying yes to opportunities, you miss them. One of the things that impressed me about talking with Michael and Vince is the fact that they noticed that there was this interest in GraphQL, which meant that they had their finger on the pulse. They were listening to what people were talking about, and they realized there’s a piece missing there. I know how to build APIs, and I know GraphQL. It’s complicated for people to put together these back-end services that are required in order to support something like that. I can build something that can help people. I can build something that there are people out there looking for, that they need. They figured out a way to do it, and they put it together in such a way that they were able to go through Y Combinator which is an amazing accomplishment and get it presented to people. Now they’re living in a house. It sounds almost like some sort of reality show, but it is reality for them.
不仅仅是他们展示自己。 这是关于您说“是”的，因为这些机会可以以您甚至没有注意到的非常巧妙和巧妙的方式展现自己。 如果您不在那里积极地对机会说“是”，那么您会错过机会。 与Michael和Vince交谈时，令我印象深刻的一件事是，他们注意到对GraphQL的这种兴趣，这意味着他们对脉搏有所了解。 他们正在听人们在说什么，他们意识到那里还缺了一块。 我知道如何建立API，也知道GraphQL。 人们将支持这些东西所需的这些后端服务放在一起很复杂。 我可以建立一些可以帮助人们的东西。 我可以构建一些人们正在寻找所需的东西。 他们想出了一种方法，将它们组合在一起，从而能够通过Y Combinator，这是一项了不起的成就，并将其展示给了人们。 现在他们住在一所房子里。 听起来几乎像是某种真人秀，但这对他们来说却是现实。
Tim [27:36]:
蒂姆[27:36] ：
-
Yeah. It sounds like from what they’ve described that it’s working very well. They have clients that are interested, and you really can’t say that it’s not something that’s appealing. As a front-end developer myself, I don’t want to spend time building an API. That’s not something that … I mean, sure. I’d learn. I’d be interested. I might even like it, but if I have an idea for a product or service, I just want to get it going. Those are the services that are not only making it easier but are also starting to make a lot of sense. I mean, back end as a service is something that is really going to help startups of all sizes. You can be a very large organization, but if your priority is less on back-end development or more on front-end development, or you’re not really dealing with a lot of data but you’re still a large organization, that really comes in handy, and that can be a pivotal service for your product.
是的 从他们的描述看来，它运作良好。 他们的客户很感兴趣，您真的不能说这不是很吸引人的事情。 作为自己的前端开发人员，我不想花时间构建API。 那不是……我的意思是，肯定的。 我会学的。 我会感兴趣的。 我什至可能喜欢它，但是如果我对产品或服务有想法，我只是想让它发展起来。 这些服务不仅使它变得更容易，而且也开始变得很有道理。 我的意思是，后端即服务确实可以帮助各种规模的初创企业。 您可以是一个非常大的组织，但是如果您的工作重点不是放在后端开发上，还是放在前端开发上，或者您不是真正在处理大量数据，而是仍然是一个大型组织，那派上用场，这可以为您的产品提供关键服务。
David:
大卫：
-
I was thinking about that, too, because I also come from a front-end engineering background. I’ve worked with some of those back-end engineers, and it’s amazing the things that you need to consider when you’re putting together a stable, secure, reliable, efficient, effective back-end for your service. There’s so much to keep track of, so much to stay on top of, so much that changes so quickly in that field as well where people … you never know when a DDOS is going to come in, and what the source is going to be, and what the new security patches are going to do to what you’re trying to build and make stable. This idea of having back end as a service available for free from companies like this and from Firebase and from other places, the fact that that’s out there just opens up a world of possibilities to people with a little bit of front-end knowledge.
我也在考虑这一点，因为我也来自前端工程背景。 我曾与其中一些后端工程师一起工作，当为您的服务构建稳定，安全，可靠，高效，有效的后端时，您需要考虑的事情令人惊奇。 有太多要跟踪的东西，有很多要掌握的东西，以至于该领域的变化如此之快，以至于人们在哪里……您永远不知道什么时候会出现DDOS，以及源将是什么。 ，以及新的安全补丁对您要构建和保持稳定的功能的作用。 这样的公司，Firebase和其他地方免费提供后端即服务的想法，事实就是这样，这一事实为拥有一点前端知识的人们打开了无限可能的世界。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yeah. We should probably spend some time focusing on some of those resources that are available, because we don’t talk about it a lot. Often, in my career, I hear about people saying,
I just deployed this thing on Firebase,
or,I just pushed it up to AWS,
but there’s not a lot of,Hey, this is exactly how you go about doing that thing. Here are all of the resources available if you want to get an API for testing up and running, or if you want some quick storage or if you really just want to put some static thing up for free.
You can do that. Those aren’t necessarily the cool things anymore, and I feel like they’re not always focused about as much, but there are some crazy good resources out there that can, if you don’t know, do most of the work for you, and I think like we should maybe spend some time going over that.是的 我们可能应该花一些时间专注于一些可用的资源，因为我们讨论的不多。 通常，在我的职业生涯中，我听到有人说，
我只是在Firebase上部署了这个东西，
或者只是将它推到了AWS上，
但是并没有很多东西，嘿，这正是您要做的事情。
如果您想要获得一个用于测试和运行的API，或者想要快速存储，或者您真的只是想免费放置一些静态内容，那么这里提供了所有可用资源。
你可以做到的。 这些不再是很酷的事情了，我觉得他们并不总是专注于这些事情，但是那里有一些疯狂的好资源，即使您不知道，它们也可以为您完成大部分工作，我认为我们也许应该花一些时间来解决这个问题。
David:
大卫：
-
Oh, absolutely. I see no reason why we shouldn’t, and it’s important for people to realize that it doesn’t have to live completely on your shoulders. This idea that you have to be a unicorn, essentially, and be able to create everything from top to bottom in order to put out a service and know that it’s yours, that’s no longer the case. With so many different services out there, it’s possible to build on top of something else, and people don’t know enough about how those things are changing out there. GraphQL, REST, all of these different ways of thinking about an API, the pre-REST APIs, the notion that we should think about structured data as part of what we’re doing, whether the structured data is enforced by a database or enforced in the API or somehow lives in a graph in the app itself. All of these things are things that people need to take into consideration when they’re building something for the front end.
哦，绝对。 我认为没有理由不这样做，对于人们来说重要的是要意识到它不必完全靠自己的肩膀生活。 从本质上讲，您必须是独角兽，并且能够从上到下创建一切，以便提供服务并知道它是您的，这种想法已经不复存在了。 有了这么多不同的服务，就有可能在其他事物的基础上进行构建，而人们对这些事物如何变化知之甚少。 GraphQL，REST，所有这些不同的API思维方式，REST之前的API，我们应该将结构化数据视为我们正在做的事情的概念，结构化数据是由数据库强制实施还是强制实施API中的内容或以某种方式存在于应用程序本身的图形中。 所有这些都是人们在为前端构建东西时需要考虑的东西。
We have frameworks like React. You can do so much on top of that. I’d be interested in finding out from our listeners if there are technologies that they think are the cutting edge, the things that are happening next that they’d really like to hear more about — and also, how they’re taking advantage of older technologies, and why they’re sticking with them.
我们有像React这样的框架。 您可以在此之上做很多事情。 我很想从我们的听众那里了解他们是否认为最前沿的技术，他们真正想了解的接下来正在发生的事情以及他们如何利用这一优势。较旧的技术，以及为何坚持使用这些技术。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yeah. As we know, it’s 2017. React isn’t cool anymore. There’s something else, and we have to know what it is. That’s our job. So, dear listeners, please tell us, because we don’t know. We don’t know what the next thing … I don’t know. What is it?
是的 众所周知，现在是2017年。React不再酷了。 还有其他事情，我们必须知道它是什么。 那是我们的工作。 所以，亲爱的听众，请告诉我们，因为我们不知道。 我们不知道接下来会发生什么……我不知道。 它是什么？
David:
大卫：
-
We have to be cool. That’s the imperative.
我们必须保持冷静。 这是当务之急。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
We’re both wearing sunglasses right now. That’s what’s happening. That’s how hard we’re trying at this.
我们俩现在都戴着墨镜。 就是这样 这就是我们要为此付出的努力。
David:
大卫：
-
I think that’s an effect of the gig economy, too, because if you don’t look cool, they’re not going to hire you.
我认为这也是零工经济的影响，因为如果您看上去不酷，他们就不会雇用您。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yeah. You’ve got to wear flannel shirts and distressed boots or something. I’m not that cool, guys. I don’t really know, but I tried.
是的 您必须穿法兰绒衬衫和做旧的靴子之类的东西。 伙计，我不是那么酷。 我真的不知道，但是我尝试了。
David:
大卫：
-
I have such a collection of hoodies.
我有这样的帽衫收藏。
Tim [31:44]:
提姆[31:44] ：
-
Yeah. Exactly. But, that being said, GraphQL is really interesting and really exciting, especially if you have gone through the process of talking with a back end developer to get an API built and then grabbing that API and then formatting more data on that API. I’m sure you have, David. I’ve gone through this a number of times, wherein I need to get some user data, and for me it was eCommerce. What does this user have in their cart? I get a list of IDs. I need to go make more requests to find out what those IDs map to, then it’s not filtered the right way and I have to go and do that. It’s more work for everybody, because it’s really every time I need a new API, I just go to one of the back-end developers available and say,
Hey, give me this now, and it’s slightly different from that but not really, but still I need a new one.
是的 究竟。 但是，话虽如此，但GraphQL确实很有趣并且令人兴奋，特别是如果您已经经历了与后端开发人员交谈以构建API，然后获取该API然后在该API上格式化更多数据的过程。 我确定你有，大卫。 我已经经历了很多次，其中我需要获取一些用户数据，而对我来说，这是电子商务。 该用户的购物车中有什么？ 我得到一个ID列表。 我需要发出更多请求以找出这些ID映射到的内容，然后才没有正确过滤该方法，所以我必须去做。 这对每个人来说都是更多的工作，因为实际上是每当我需要一个新的API时，我就去找一个可用的后端开发人员，然后说，
嘿，现在给我这个，虽然有点不同，但不是真的，但是我仍然需要一个新的。
Lots of money gets wasted, because that’s what it really ends up to be. It’s just a lot of wasted hours on building similar things, formatting those things and you get this spaghetti mess, but now it’s on your back end.
很多钱被浪费了，因为那才是最终的结果。 在构建类似的东西，格式化这些东西上浪费了很多时间，而您却遇到了意大利面条的混乱，但是现在它在您的后端。
David:
大卫：
-
What little I know about GraphQL indicates that it’s going to be solving some of those problems with the ability to use types, with the ability to define interfaces that those types can implement. I think it’s going to make it possible to create variations and multiple versions of things inside of a data access layer that really will make sense and really will be more versatile, and maybe solve some of those problems and make some of that communication more visible. Because one of the things I’ve always noticed when I’ve been in those conversations is the issues around documentation, which Michael and Vince did bring up.
我对GraphQL知之甚少，这表明它将通过使用类型的能力以及定义那些类型可以实现的接口的能力来解决其中的一些问题。 我认为这将有可能在数据访问层内创建变体和多个版本的事物，这实际上将是有意义的，并且将变得更加通用，并且也许可以解决其中的一些问题并使某些通信更加可见。 因为当我参加这些对话时，我经常注意到的一件事就是有关文档的问题，Michael和Vince确实提出了这些问题。
It’s important and it’s critical to document your REST API very specifically, and have all of these endpoints and exactly what everything means and what all of these different possible variations could mean. And, apparently, with GraphQL a lot of that documentation gets carried within the structure of the schema itself.
非常具体地记录您的REST API，并且具有所有这些端点以及所有含义以及所有这些可能的变化含义都非常重要，这一点至关重要。 而且，显然，使用GraphQL，很多文档都包含在架构本身的结构中。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Just like Michael was saying, when you are the SoundCloud API — which I have worked on before on podcasts trying to get right — and you really do run into those problems of,
Okay, what does this thing accept? Is this parameter correct? Why am I not getting this thing? Oh, here’s a random person’s profile.
It really gets you thinking, and it’s not necessarily SoundCloud’s fault. It’s a really large product. It’s a giant API. There are tons of ways to interact with it. If you rely on a human to get that documentation right every time, it’s never going to work.就像迈克尔在说的那样，当您使用的是SoundCloud API(我之前曾在播客上尝试过使之正确)时，您确实遇到了以下问题，
好吧，这件事可以接受吗？
这个参数正确吗？
为什么我没有得到这个东西？
哦，这是一个随机人的个人资料。
它确实让您思考，而且不一定是SoundCloud的错。 这是一个很大的产品。 这是一个巨大的API。 有很多与之交互的方法。 如果您依靠人工来每次都正确获取该文档，那么它将永远无法正常工作。
David:
大卫：
-
No. I will definitely confess I’m thinking through some of the REST APIs that I have had a hand in helping to design and occasionally build, and I’m thinking about all of the silly, stupid detailed things that are difficult to figure out and you would never … they’re completely unintuitive unless you understand exactly what the thing is trying to do in the first place. It sounds to me like bringing these things to the surface, and getting people thinking about them more, is going to be more critical, especially going forward. As front-end engineers ourselves, and working with designers and with back-end engineers, these conversations … it just helps bring these things to the surface, and I’m looking forward to this.
不会。我一定会承认，我正在考虑一些我曾经帮助设计和偶尔构建的REST API，并且正在考虑所有难以理解的愚蠢，愚蠢的详细内容而且您永远都不会……除非您完全了解事情的初衷，否则它们是完全不直观的。 在我看来，将这些东西浮出水面，让人们更多地思考它们，将变得尤为关键，尤其是向前迈进。 作为我们自己的前端工程师，以及与设计师和后端工程师的合作，这些对话……只是有助于将这些东西浮出水面，我对此很期待。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
That’s why my motto as a front-end developer is
make the server do the work
, because I don’t have to anymore. It’s not just lazy. It helps. Its helps everybody — because, again, some of the things that GraphQL helps with, you can rewrite the API on the back end and not have to change a single thing on the front end.这就是为什么我作为前端开发人员的座右铭是
让服务器来工作
，因为我不必再这样做了。 不只是懒惰。 它有助于。 它对所有人都有帮助-因为GraphQL可以帮助您完成某些事情，因此您可以在后端重写API，而不必在前端进行任何更改。
David:
大卫：
-
A good engineer is a lazy engineer — and yes, you may quote me on that.
一个好的工程师是个懒惰的工程师-是的，您可以在这上面引用我。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
It’s true. Our job is to write the least amount of code, not the most.
这是真的。 我们的工作是编写最少的代码，而不是最多。
David:
大卫：
-
Well, thank you so much for listening, everybody. We always enjoy getting to talk technology with all of you.
好，非常感谢大家的倾听。 我们总是喜欢与大家交谈技术。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
We would also like to thank SitePoint.com, and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat, with production help from Ralph Mason. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @versioningshow — and give us a rating on iTunes to let us know how we’re doing.
我们还要感谢SitePoint.com以及我们的制作人Adam Roberts和Ophelie Lechat，以及Ralph Mason的制作帮助。 请随时在Twitter( @versioningshow)上向我们发送您的评论，并在iTunes上给我们评分 ，让我们知道我们的情况。
David:
大卫：
-
We’ll see you next time, and we hope you enjoyed this version.
下次见，我们希望您喜欢这个版本。
翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/rest-graphql-and-founding-a-startup-with-michael-paris-and-vince-ning/
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