Luke Hay的UX研究，分析和黑暗模式

In this episode of the Versioning Show, Tim and David talk with Luke Hay, a user experience professional and author. They discuss the meaning and purpose of UX, a day in the life of a UX professional, the value of analytics in UX research, looking beyond vanity metrics and drilling down into the details of user activity, starting UX research on a new project, dark patterns, carousels, and Evil Versioning.

在Versioning Show的这一集中，Tim和David与用户体验专家兼作者Luke Hay进行了交谈。 他们讨论了UX的意义和目的，UX专家生命中的一天，UX研究中分析的价值，超越虚荣性指标并深入研究用户活动的细节，开始在新项目上进行UX研究，黑暗模式，轮播和Evil版本控制。

Visit the Versioning Show Home Page

访问版本控制显示主页

Subscribe on iTunes | Subscribe on Stitcher | View All Episodes

在iTunes上订阅 | 订阅Stitcher | 查看所有剧集

显示笔记 (Show Notes)

• Check out Rollbar’s free Bootstrap Plan sign up offer

  查看Rollbar的免费Bootstrap计划注册优惠

• lukehay.co.uk

  lukehay.co.uk

• Luke on Twitter: @hayluke

  卢克在Twitter： @hayluke

• darkpatterns.org

  darkpatterns.org

• Researching UX: Analytics

  研究用户体验：分析

• Say hello on Twitter: @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom

  在Twitter上问好： @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom

对话重点 (Conversation Highlights)

UX is about … users, their everyday lives, how they interact with things. Obviously, the UI is a big part of that, but it’s also about things like their motivations to do things. Their overall experience with your software, your website, or your product.

UX与……用户，他们的日常生活以及他们与事物的交互方式有关。 显然，UI是其中很大的一部分，但也涉及诸如他们做事的动机之类的事情。 他们对您的软件，网站或产品的整体体验。

---

---

User research is a particularly important part of UX. You can’t be a UX designer or a UX researcher without actually talking to users about their experience. It’s much more than just drawing wireframes or creating designs on websites or apps.

用户研究是UX的一个特别重要的部分。 您不能成为UX设计人员或UX研究人员，除非实际与用户谈论他们的经验。 这不仅仅只是绘制线框或在网站或应用程序上创建设计。

---

---

people often focus on the kind of what I think of as the vanity metrics — things like the number of visits that your website gets, looking at overall bounce rates for a website … that kind of thing … rather than drilling down into detail, which is much more useful

人们通常专注于我认为是虚荣指标的类型 -例如您网站的访问次数，查看网站的总体跳出率……这种情况……而不是深入研究细节，更有用

---

---

the analytics will generally tell you what’s happening, and then further research will at least give you an indication of why that might be happening.

该分析通常会告诉你发生了什么 ，然后进一步的研究，至少可以让你为什么可能发生的指示。

---

---

I think the main thing about any form of UX really is understanding your users. It’s around finding out who your target audience is for your app, and then just talking to those people, really.

我认为关于任何形式的UX的主要内容实际上是了解您的用户。 这是围绕找出谁是您的应用的目标受众，然后才真正与这些人交谈。

---

---

You can actually get real users starting to interact with and see how they get on with it, really, and see where there’s any clear problems there. I think that, in my experience, doing user testing on real users, you always get some sort of good feedback, and it’s often not what you’d expect.

实际上，您可以让真正的用户开始与他们进行互动，并查看他们如何真正地进行互动，并查看那里存在任何明显的问题。 我认为，以我的经验，在真实用户上进行用户测试时，您总是会得到一些良好的反馈，而这往往不是您期望的。

---

---

the key for me is having real users interacting with things, because it becomes blatantly obvious if you’ve got users trying to perform some tasks and they will tend to use things completely differently to how you imagine that they will.

对我来说，关键是让真正的用户与事物进行交互，因为如果您让用户尝试执行某些任务，这将变得非常明显，并且他们倾向于以与您想象的完全不同的方式使用事物。

---

---

That’s almost a form of dark pattern as well — I don’t know if you’re familiar with that term, dark pattern. But the idea is there’s a design that’s made purely to essentially confuse the user, trick the user, make the user’s life harder for the benefit of the business.

那也几乎是深色图案的一种形式-我不知道您是否熟悉深色图案这个术语。 但是想法是，纯粹是为了使用户感到困惑，欺骗用户，使用户的生活变得更艰难而设计出来的，以谋求业务利益。

成绩单 (Transcript)

Tim: 蒂姆：

Hey, what’s up, everybody? This is Tim Evko …

嘿，大家好吗？ 这是Tim Evko…

David: 大卫：

… and this is M. David Green …

…这是大卫·格林(M. David Green)…

Tim: 蒂姆：

… and you’re listening to episode number 27 of the Versioning podcast.

…，您正在收听Versioning播客的第27集。

David: 大卫：

This is a place where we get together to discuss the industry of the web, from development to design, with some of the people making it happen today and planning where it’s headed in the next version.

在这里，我们可以聚在一起讨论从开发到设计的网络行业，其中一些人将其付诸实践，并计划下一版的发展方向。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Today, we are talking with Luke Hay, who is a user experience professional and also a new author. We’re going to talk a little bit about his career, some of his expertise, and hopefully we’ll talk a little bit about a book in the process. So let’s go ahead and get this version started.

今天，我们正在与Luke Hay交谈，Luke Hay是一位用户体验专家，也是一位新作者。 我们将谈谈他的职业生涯，他的一些专业知识，并希望在此过程中再谈谈一本书。 因此，让我们开始安装该版本。

---

---

David: 大卫：

I’m excited to tell you about a new sponsor of the show, Rollbar.

很高兴告诉您有关该节目的新赞助商Rollbar的信息 。

One of the frustrating things we all deal with is errors …

我们所有人都面临的令人沮丧的事情之一就是错误……

Relying on users to report errors, digging through log files trying to debug issues … With Rollbar’s error monitoring, you get the full stack trace, context, and user data to help you find and fix impactful errors super fast.

依靠用户报告错误，浏览日志文件以尝试调试问题…通过Rollbar的错误监视，您可以获得完整的堆栈跟踪，上下文和用户数据，以帮助您快速找到并修复有影响的错误。

You can integrate Rollbar into your existing workflow; send error alerts to Slack or Hipchat; or, automatically create new issues in JIRA, Pivotal Tracker or Trello.

您可以将Rollbar集成到现有工作流程中； 向Slack或Hipchat发送错误警报； 或者，在JIRA，Pivotal Tracker或Trello中自动创建新问题。

Adding the Rollbar’s SDK is as easy as copy and paste. Start tracking and logging application errors in minutes.

添加Rollbar的SDK与复制和粘贴一样容易。 在几分钟内开始跟踪和记录应用程序错误。

We have a special offer for listeners. Go to rollbar.com/versioning, sign up, and get the Bootstrap Plan free.

我们为听众提供特别优惠。 转到rollbar.com/versioning ，注册并免费获得Bootstrap Plan。

Loved by developers at awesome companies like Heroku, Twilio, Kayak, Zendesk, Twitch and more.

受到Heroku，Twilio，Kayak，Zendesk，Twitch等出色公司的开发人员的喜爱。

Give Rollbar a try a today. Go to rollbar.com/versioning.

今天就试试Rollbar。 前往rollbar.com/versioning 。

---

---

David: 大卫：

Luke, we’re really glad to have you on this show. Welcome.

卢克，我们很高兴能邀请您参加这次演出。 欢迎。

Luke: 路加：

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

是的 感谢您的款待。

David: 大卫：

This is the Versioning Show, and one of the things we like to do is start off with a philosophical question. Your philosophical question for the day is, In your current career, what version are you, and why?

这是版本显示，我们要做的一件事是从一个哲学问题开始。 您今天的哲学问题是， 在您当前的职业中，您是哪个版本，为什么？

Luke: 路加：

Nice easy one to start with, then! That’s a good question. I think I’ve gone through various versions. I’ve been in the industry for quite a long time. Been working in the web since the ‘90s, and gone through various different roles in terms of both analytics and then moving to UX and combining the two. I guess I’d say, at a push, maybe I’m version 3. I’ve gone from analytics to UX to a combination of the two, really, and having the two work together in tandem.

那么，很容易上手！ 这是个好问题。 我想我经历了各种版本。 我从事该行业已经很长时间了。 自90年代以来一直在网络上工作，并且在分析方面经历了各种不同的角色，然后转向UX并结合了二者。 我想我想说的是，也许是我的版本3。我已经从分析到UX，再到两者的结合，实际上是使两者协同工作。

David: 大卫：

Well, nice progress and room to grow.

好吧，进展很好，还有成长的空间。

Luke: 路加：

Yeah.

是的

David: 大卫：

Very cool. You are, as Tim mentioned, a UX professional. I know one of the things, it’s a classic question but everybody has a different explanation for how people can understand it. The distinction between UX and UI, when it comes to design analytics.

很酷。 正如Tim所言，您是UX专业人士。 我知道其中一件事，这是一个经典的问题，但是每个人对于人们如何理解它都有不同的解释。 在设计分析方面，UX和UI之间的区别。

Luke: 路加：

It’s almost a controversial subject at times. I think people got very strong opinions about it. From my side of things, UX is — it stands for your user experience — it’s about much more broadly users, their everyday lives, how they interact with things. Obviously, the UI is a big part of that, but it’s also about things like their motivations to do things. Their overall experience with your software, your website, or your product.

有时这几乎是一个有争议的主题。 我认为人们对此有很强烈的意见。 从我的角度来看，UX是(代表您的用户体验) ，它广泛地涉及用户，他们的日常生活以及他们与事物的交互方式。 显然，UI是其中很大的一部分，但也涉及诸如他们做事的动机之类的事情。 他们对您的软件，网站或产品的整体体验。

David: 大卫：

How would you visualize that for people? How do you make that tangible to folks?

您将如何为人们形象化？ 您如何使这些东西对人们切实可见？

Luke: 路加：

It’s a good question. A lot of the time, there’s various difference and diagrams. There’s a famous one that people often use, perhaps wrongly, where you’ve got two paths, and one’s a man-made path, and one’s people taking a shortcut, and that’s the one they says is user experience. For me, I’m not sure how helpful those kind of diagrams are, really. I think it’s more about the user experience being broadly around understanding your users and studying more about them as people. User research is a particularly important part of UX. You can’t be a UX designer or a UX researcher without actually talking to users about their experience. It’s much more than just drawing wireframes or creating designs on websites or apps.

这是一个好问题。 很多时候，会有各种差异和图表。 人们经常错误地使用一种著名的方法，即您有两条路径，一条是人为的路径，一个人走了一条捷径，这就是他们所说的用户体验。 对于我来说，我不确定这些图表是否真的有用。 我认为，更多的是关于用户体验，其理解是围绕理解用户并以人为对象进行更多的研究。 用户研究是UX的一个特别重要的部分。 您不能成为UX设计人员或UX研究人员，除非实际与用户谈论他们的经验。 这不仅仅只是绘制线框或在网站或应用程序上创建设计。

Tim: 蒂姆：

What would a typical day look like for you in this profession?

在这个行业中，典型的一天对您来说会是什么样？

Luke [3:56]: 路加福音[3:56] ：

That’s a good question. I’m not sure there is such a thing as a typical day, but I like to think there’s a lot of variety in what I do. In terms of my approach, generally, as I’ve said in the book, it’s an analytics-first approach to UX. I start off, although this wouldn’t all necessarily be in the same day, I would generally start with projects looking at the analytics for a website we’re at. That could be Google Analytics or similar tools to that. Find out how people are using or interacting with it.

这是个好问题。 我不确定是否会发生典型的一天，但我想认为我的工作会有很多变化。 就我的方法而言，通常，正如我在书中所言，这是UX的分析优先方法。 我先开始，尽管不一定都在同一天，但我通常会从研究我们网站的分析的项目开始。 那可能是Google Analytics(分析)或类似的工具。 了解人们如何使用它或与其交互。

Other things that I might do in this hypothetical day, I might do more user research — so that’s actually user interviews, perhaps talking to users of software or a website or an app, or it could be stakeholder interviews. So finding out more about business from the key players within that business about what they’ve heard from their customers about how they deal within that side of things.

在这个假想的日子里，我可能会做其他事情，我可能会做更多的用户研究-因此实际上是用户访谈，也许是与软件，网站或应用程序的用户交谈，或者可能是利益相关者访谈。 因此，要从该业务的主要参与者那里找到有关业务的更多信息，以了解他们从客户那里听到的关于他们如何在这一方面进行交易的信息。

Some user testing — or usability testing — is another big part of what I do. So there may be some user testing, getting users to work through particular tasks on a website or app. That would be a busy but typical day, I guess.

一些用户测试(或可用性测试)是我所做的另一重要部分。 因此，可能需要进行一些用户测试，才能使用户完成网站或应用程序上的特定任务。 我想那将是繁忙而又典型的一天。

Tim: 蒂姆：

So you mentioned analytics, which is a topic that I find fascinating. I was wondering if you see any mistakes that people might make when they initially view a large pile of data like you would find in Google Analytics.

所以您提到了分析，这是我发现很着迷的主题。 我想知道您是否看到人们最初查看大量数据时可能会犯的错误，就像您在Google Analytics(分析)中会发现的那样。

Luke: 路加：

Yeah. I think the first mistake that a lot of people make, particularly in the UX industry, is perhaps not using analytics as much or as often as they should do. Obviously, just my opinion on it. But a lot of the time, I think naturally people who work in UX got to work more directly with users or with design as a concept and aren’t so drawn to the analytical side of things. I think there’s an element of that — that it can be overlooked, and not used to its full potential.

是的 我认为，很多人犯的第一个错误，尤其是在UX行业中，可能是没有像他们应该的那样频繁或频繁地使用分析。 显然，只是我的意见。 但是很多时候，我认为在UX中工作的人自然可以与用户或将设计作为概念进行更直接的合作，而对事物的分析性并不那么感兴趣。 我认为其中有一个要素-它可以被忽略，而不能完全发挥其潜力。

In terms of getting started, as well, people often focus on the kind of what I think of as the vanity metrics — things like the number of visits that your website gets, looking at overall bounce rates for a website … that kind of thing … rather than drilling down into detail, which is much more useful — to find out how people are using particular sections of your website, or where they’re coming from, or looking at things like conversion rates.

同样，在入门方面，人们经常专注于我认为的虚荣指标 -诸如您网站的访问次数，网站的整体跳出率……之类的东西……而不是深入研究详细信息，这将更为有用-了解人们如何使用您网站的特定部分，他们来自何处或查看转化率之类的信息。

David: 大卫：

The line between the subjective and the objective I think is kind of subtle, when you’re talking about some of this, and I’m curious how you draw that — how you make the distinction.

当您谈论其中的一些时，我认为主观和客观之间的界线有些微妙，我很好奇您是如何得出这一点的-如何区分。

Luke: 路加：

I think one simple way to look at it, which is perhaps oversimplifying it, is that the analytics will generally tell you what’s happening, and then further research will at least give you an indication of why that might be happening. I’ll generally use the analytics to spot that something seems a bit odd with the data, that perhaps conversion rate is particularly low on a certain type of browser, and then maybe do some testing with that — functional testing or, ideally, userbase testing — and try to find out what the cause is there. So, yeah, the analytics will tell you what’s happening, and the UX research side of things will attempt to tell you why that’s happening.

我认为，一个简单的方式来看待它，这也许是过于简单化了，就是分析一般会告诉你发生了什么 ，然后进一步的研究，至少可以让你为什么可能发生的指示。 我通常会使用分析方法来发现数据似乎有些奇怪，在某种类型的浏览器上，转换率可能特别低，然后再进行一些测试，例如功能测试或理想的用户群测试—尝试找出原因所在。 所以，是的，分析会告诉你发生了什么，以及对事物的UX研究方面将尝试告诉你为什么会发生的事情。

David: 大卫：

I’m really glad that you made that distinction, because, every now and then, I’ll be working with a team that will tell me mostly users on an iPhone 6, using just Safari browser, will go to our site, so we need to optimize for them. And then I need to try and fight this battle of explaining that it could be that case, or it could be that your application or website is a gate that is preventing anyone without that browser or that device from accessing your content. I’m sure you do some consulting. I mean, you wrote a book on the subject. How do you teach people how to correctly interpret data?

我真的很高兴您能与众不同，因为我会不时与一个团队合作，该团队将告诉我大部分使用Safari浏览器的iPhone 6用户，都将转到我们的网站，因此我们需要针对它们进行优化。 然后，我需要尝试与这场争斗作斗争，以解释这可能是这种情况，或者可能是您的应用程序或网站是阻止没有该浏览器或该设备的任何人访问您的内容的大门。 我确定你会做一些咨询。 我的意思是，您写了一本书。 您如何教人们如何正确解释数据？

Luke [7:32]: 路加福音[7:32] ：

I think that’s a really good point, the one you just made there, and I think that leads into finding out more. Looking outside of your own analytics as well. There’s a section of reports in Google Analytics, which are the benchmarking reports, and this will tell you what kind of … the performances of other websites within the same kind of industry, the same size as you, and then you can start to compare those things.

我认为这是一个很好的观点，这就是您刚才在那提出的观点，并且我认为这会带来更多的发现。 还可以查看您自己的分析之外的内容。 Google Analytics(分析)中有一部分报告是基准测试报告，它将告诉您……与您处于同一行业，具有相同规模的其他网站的效果如何，然后您就可以开始比较这些效果了。东西。

For example, just looking at the number of mobile users a website gets, you can use the benchmarking report and say, Well, at the moment, 20% of users that come to my website are on mobile, but actually you look at the benchmark for my industry, it’s more like 30%, and then you can start to find out why that is. I think the numbers are great for answering those kind of questions.

例如，仅查看网站获得的移动用户数量，您就可以使用基准测试报告说， 好吧，目前，访问我网站的用户中有20％是移动用户，但实际上您查看的是基准对于我的行业来说，它更像是30％，然后您就可以开始找出原因了。 我认为这些数字非常适合回答此类问题。

Quite often, someone will make a statement, and it may be a bit of a hunch, but unless they’ve got some dates to back it up, then it’s really just an opinion. So definitely using the data, as long as it’s from a source that can be trusted, and I speak a bit about that in the book, but if it’s from a source that can be trusted, then it’s something you can use with other people. It’s very hard to argue with those numbers, really.

通常，有人会发表声明，这也许有点预感，但是除非他们有一些日期可以支持，否则这实际上只是一种意见。 因此，绝对可以使用数据，只要它来自可信任的来源，我在书中就谈到了这一点，但是如果它来自可信任的来源，那么您可以与其他人一起使用。 真的很难与这些数字争论。

David: 大卫：

Actually, speaking of the book, one of the things I noticed was that you drove the book around the subject of analytics, and I don’t know if UX is always talked about with such a focus on analytics, and I’m curious about that.

其实，谈到这本书，我注意到的一件事是，您将书推到了分析的主题上，我不知道UX是否总是被如此关注分析而谈论，我对此很好奇那。

Luke: 路加：

I think that is definitely an area that, in my opinion, is underdeveloped, really. It’s something that I think people should be using more of. I’m not suggesting at all that analytics should be the only form of user research you do. In fact, it should lead onto other types of research. It’s about having that sort of quantity of data and the quality of data working together, rather than just using one or the other.

我认为，这确实是一个不发达的领域。 我认为人们应该更多地使用它。 我根本不建议您将分析作为用户研究的唯一形式。 实际上，它应该导致其他类型的研究。 这是关于使这种数量的数据和数据质量一起工作，而不是仅使用一个或另一个。

Again, analytics, it’s a good way of solving arguments. If two people have got different opinions, quite often the analytics will show you which one is doing better. Later on in the book, I talk about A/B testing as well, which is obviously an analytical approach to design, in a way — showing two different designs to your audience, and then seeing which one performs better.

同样，分析是解决争论的好方法。 如果两个人有不同的意见，那么分析经常会向您显示哪个人做得更好。 在本书的稍后部分，我还将讨论A / B测试，这显然是一种设计分析方法，可以向观众展示两种不同的设计，然后看看哪种性能更好。

David: 大卫：

Right, and I think the crossover between those is one of the reasons why people get confused sometimes about the distinctions between UX and UI analysis and design. So you came to this UX … what is your background? What did you bring to it?

是的，我认为两者之间的交叉是人们有时对UX与UI分析与设计之间的区别感到困惑的原因之一。 因此，您来到了UX……您的背景是什么？ 你带来了什么？

Luke: 路加：

That’s a good question. I think my background started a long time ago. I’ve been working in the industry since late 1990s, really, and people were just sort of using websites back then. Here in the UK, it was fairly uncommon for people to have internet connections at home, and it was with dial-up accounts and that kind of thing, so the industry was very much in its infancy back then. And I got into it, helping out essentially a web company with their analytics as it was back then.

这是个好问题。 我认为我的背景很久以前就开始了。 从1990年代末开始，我就一直从事该行业，那时人们只是在使用网站。 在英国，人们在家中建立互联网连接是很不常见的事，而拨号上网帐户之类的东西却很少，因此当时该行业还处于起步阶段。 我加入了这个团队，从那时开始就为一家网络公司提供他们的分析服务。

It was very basic information. It was the kind of metrics that I spoke about earlier. Perhaps the vanity metrics, in terms of the number of visits websites were getting, and that kind of thing, but it was at least an idea of how your website was performing, because without that, you were almost blind, really, and it was very difficult to know who was using your website, and how long they were staying there, that kind of thing.

这是非常基本的信息。 这是我之前谈到的指标。 也许就网站获得的访问次数以及类似的事情而言，虚荣性指标很重要，但这至少是您的网站效果如何的一个想法，因为如果没有这一点，您几乎是盲目的，实际上，这是很难知道谁在使用您的网站，以及他们在该网站停留了多长时间。

So I really started off with a bit of an analytical background. A slightly technical background as well, doing some setups for new sites and that kind of thing. Working for a web hosting company for a while in between there. From then on, I went to work in-house for a couple of places. I worked both in-house and agency-side, and you can kind of get a good idea of what’s going on with a website if you are working in-house, because you’ve got a lot of time to spend looking at analytics and finding out what’s going on and really understanding not only the business but the customers or the users.

所以我真的是从一些分析背景开始的。 也有一点技术背景，可以为新站点进行一些设置以及类似的事情。 在此期间为网络托管公司工作一段时间。 从那时起，我去内部工作了两个地方。 我在公司内部和代理机构工作，如果您在内部工作，则可以很好地了解网站的运行状况，因为您有很多时间花在分析和找出正在发生的事情，不仅真正了解业务，而且真正了解客户或用户。

David: 大卫：

Would you say that you’re primarily self taught, or did you bring a degree or education to this as well?

您是说您主要是自学成才，还是也获得了学位或学历？

Luke: 路加：

Yeah, I’d say self taught would be correct, in terms of I don’t have much in the way of formal qualifications that are useful towards the UX and analytic side of things. But I think, also, I’ve been taught by a lot of people that I’ve worked with, either as direct colleagues or people like the UX community here in Brighton in the UK. There’s a lot of people here who I’ve learned a lot from. So it would be a bit disingenuous to say I was self taught, but I’ve learned from others along the way, and to say, in terms of formal qualifications, there’s not a lot there apart from the Google Analytics individual qualification, which anyone can take, really.

是的，我会说自学是正确的，因为我没有太多的形式资格对UX和分析方面有用。 但是我也认为，我曾与很多人一起教过我，既有直接的同事，也有英国布莱顿的UX社区之类的人。 这里有很多人，我从中学到很多东西。 所以说我是自学的，但我一直在向别人学习，并且说，在正式资格方面，除了Google Analytics(分析)个人资格之外，没有什么其他的。可以接受，真的。

David: 大卫：

I think that that makes you actually fairly typical of the guests that we have on this show. We find a lot of people who are professionals — advanced, respected in their fields, going out there teaching and leading huge projects — who don’t have what you would call formal credentials. And yet, their enthusiasm for the subject has driven them to learn about these things, and then go out and share their knowledge.

我认为，这实际上使您成为了本次演出的来宾的典型代表。 我们发现很多人都是专业人士-先进，在各自领域中受人尊敬，从事教学和领导大型项目-他们没有您所谓的正式证书。 然而，他们对主题的热情驱使他们学习这些东西，然后出去分享他们的知识。

Luke [11:50]: 路加福音[11:50] ：

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s the case here as well for most of the people I meet. I think purely because, as I said, we’re talking a long time — maybe 15 or 20 years ago — there really wasn’t any of those formal qualifications to take. It’d be interesting to see what happens over the next sort of 10, 15 years, whether you do see more people with more formal qualifications as more of that side of thing’s available, particularly in the UX and user-centered design field. There’s a lot of things now that actually I think I’ve been very interested in taking part in if I was ten years younger.

是的，绝对。 我认为在这里遇到的大多数人也是如此。 我认为这纯粹是因为，正如我所说，我们讨论的时间很长(可能是15或20年前)，实际上没有任何正式资格要参加。 有趣的是，在接下来的10年或15年中，如果您确实会看到更多具有正式资格的人，尤其是在UX和以用户为中心的设计领域，您会看到更多的人，那么这会是一件有趣的事情。 现在有很多事情，实际上我认为如果我还不到十岁的话，我对参加比赛非常感兴趣。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Let’s say I am a new or an experienced web developer and I want to build an application. What sort of general advice could you give to me before I sort of get started coding away, in terms of UX and analytics-type of data?

假设我是一个新手或经验丰富的Web开发人员，并且想要构建一个应用程序。 在用户体验和分析类型的数据方面，在我开始编码之前，您能给我什么样的一般建议？

Luke: 路加：

That’s a very good question, and, yeah, a fairly difficult one. If you’ve got any sort of application that’s already built, if you’re redesigning the application, then that’s slightly different. If you’re doing that, then, hopefully, you will have analytics running on the current application and you can start to see how people are engaging with it, learning their behaviors, perhaps spotting potential areas for improvement, that kind of thing.

这是一个很好的问题，是的，这是一个相当困难的问题。 如果您已经构建了任何类型的应用程序，或者正在重新设计该应用程序，那将稍有不同。 如果您正在这样做，那么希望您可以在当前应用程序上运行分析，并且可以开始查看人们如何与之互动，了解他们的行为，也许发现潜在的改进领域。

If you’re starting from scratch, of course it’s slightly harder, but I think there’s still things you can do. I mean, I think the main thing about any form of UX really is understanding your users. It’s around finding out who your target audience is for your app, and then just talking to those people, really. It is a really good starting point, you know? Shadowing them to some extent, as well, if it’s some sort of work app that they’ll be using. Perhaps spend a day with them, do some immersive research, spend some time with them in their work environments, see how they normally do things, and how your app can actually help with that side of things.

如果您是从头开始的话，当然会有些困难，但是我认为您仍然可以做些事情。 我的意思是，我认为任何形式的UX的主要内容实际上是了解您的用户。 这是围绕找出谁是您的应用的目标受众，然后才真正与这些人交谈。 这是一个很好的起点，您知道吗？ 如果这是他们将要使用的某种工作应用程序，则也可以在一定程度上隐藏它们。 也许与他们一起度过一天，做一些沉浸式研究，在他们的工作环境中与他们一起度过一段时间，看看他们通常如何做事，以及您的应用程序实际上如何在这方面帮助您。

Also, I’d recommend testing as early as possible, and when I say testing, I mean sort of user testing, usability testing, rather than functional testing. So it may even be that you have a very primitive sort of prototype of your app. You might want to build it in its entirety. There’s some good prototyping tools out there that you can use. You can actually get real users starting to interact with and see how they get on with it, really, and see where there’s any clear problems there. I think that, in my experience, doing user testing on real users, you always get some sort of good feedback, and it’s often not what you’d expect.

另外，我建议您尽早进行测试，当我说测试时，我指的是某种用户测试，可用性测试，而不是功能测试。 因此，甚至可能是您拥有非常原始的应用程序原型。 您可能需要完整构建它。 有一些好的原型工具可以使用。 实际上，您可以让真正的用户开始与他们进行互动，并查看他们如何真正地进行互动，并查看那里存在任何明显的问题。 我认为，以我的经验，在真实用户上进行用户测试时，您总是会得到一些良好的反馈，而这往往不是您期望的。

David: 大卫：

As you mentioned, a lot of our audience tends to be on the technical side of things, and I’m curious, since what you do often interacts with technical folks, are there ways that you find are useful for people to build their products and build their tools so that they can work well with UX analysis?

正如您所提到的，我们很多观众倾向于技术方面的东西，我很好奇，因为您所做的经常与技术人员互动，因此您发现有一些方法对人们制造产品和产品非常有用。建立他们的工具，以便他们可以与UX分析一起很好地工作？

Luke: 路加：

Yes, there certainly is. I think getting involved with each other as early on as possible is always good. There’s no use for the UX person coming along when you’ve nearly finished your app and saying, Oh, yeah, I want to do some testing on it, and then telling you you’ve built it all wrong. And the same the other way around as well. There’s no point a developer kind of getting some UX person in at the last minute to do some testing and kind of keeping their fingers crossed that it works as it should do.

是的，肯定有。 我认为尽早参与彼此总是好事。 当您接近完成应用程序并说： 哦，是的，我想对它进行一些测试，然后告诉您您将其构建完全错误时，UX人员会派上用场。 反之亦然。 开发人员没有必要在最后一刻让一些UX人员进行测试，并让他们的手指交叉以达到应有的效果。

So I think having someone from a UX background involved from the start of development is really useful, because you can get that kind of feedback from them. They can help you. Using their experience, they can sort of talk about best practice and that kind of thing. Also because they’re perhaps not as close to it all as a developer, it means that they may give it bit more of an unbiased opinion, whereas a developer might be head down and perhaps be too close to things.

因此，我认为从开发开始就让具有UX背景的人参与其中确实很有用，因为您可以从他们那里获得这种反馈。 他们可以帮助您。 利用他们的经验，他们可以谈论最佳实践和类似的事情。 另外，因为他们可能不像开发人员那么亲密，这意味着他们可能会给他们更多公正的见解，而开发人员可能会低落并可能过于接近事物。

So I think having that second opinion from someone who’s got a lot of experience working with users and also, as soon as possible, really talking to real users and bringing users into that design process.

因此，我认为应该从拥有丰富与用户合作经验的人那里获得第二种意见，并且尽快与真实用户进行交流，并将用户带入设计过程。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I guess as a follow-up question, what common pitfalls do you see when companies or individuals release new products or applications? Like when you’re just browsing around on your phone, what’s the thing that makes you throw up your hands every single time?

我想作为后续问题，当公司或个人发布新产品或应用程序时，您会看到哪些常见的陷阱？ 就像您只是在手机上四处浏览一样，什么使您每次都举起手来？

Luke [15:34]: 路加福音[15:34] ：

I think there’s certain websites and apps that are perhaps designed by committee. There’s too many people perhaps involved with it. There’s a lot of politics potentially going on in some companies where certain people — who maybe haven’t done the research, who haven’t spent the time talking to users — make design decisions, either just based on what they think looks better, or perhaps some sort of brand issue that they think it fits in better with the brand.

我认为某些网站和应用程序可能是由委员会设计的。 可能有太多人参与其中。 在某些公司中，可能存在很多政治因素，在这些公司中，某些人(可能没有做过研究，没有花时间与用户交谈)会根据他们认为更好的外观来做出设计决策，或者也许他们认为某种品牌问题更适合该品牌。

I think, I’d say that the key for me is having real users interacting with things, because it becomes blatantly obvious if you’ve got users trying to perform some tasks and they will tend to use things completely differently to how you imagine that they will. So, getting people involved at that stage means that you can miss out on that kind of thing.

我想，对我来说，关键是要让真正的用户与事物进行交互，因为如果您让用户尝试执行某些任务，而这显然变得很明显，并且他们倾向于以与您想象的完全不同的方式使用事物，他们会的。 因此，在此阶段让人们参与进来意味着您可能会错过这种事情。

I mean, in terms of actual examples of bad websites or bad apps, I don’t think there’s any particularly that spring to mind, or none that I want to talk about here, but I think, yeah, it’s really just using your real users to do some testing for you.

我的意思是，就不良网站或不良应用程序的实际示例而言，我认为没有什么特别令人想起的东西，或者我不想在这里谈论，但我想，是的，这实际上只是在使用您的用户为您做一些测试。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I definitely have an example, and we can be controversial, but I’ve got to lay something down here, and I’ve got to get your opinion about it. I can at least stop obsessing over this issue. I go to Yelp a lot to get reviews of restaurants I’m about to go to, because that’s mostly what I do. Mostly what I do is write code and eat food. So every time I’m on my phone, on Yelp, they only let me look at like five photos before I’m forced to either tell Chrome to request the desktop site or download their app, which I have no interest in whatsoever. Luke, why do people do this? It’s terrible!

我肯定有一个例子，我们可能会引起争议，但是我必须在这里提出一些意见，而且我必须征询您的意见。 我至少可以停止对这个问题的痴迷。 我经常去Yelp以获得我将要去的餐馆的评论，因为这主要是我要做的。 我主要要做的是编写代码并吃东西。 因此，每次我在Yelp上用手机打电话时，他们只让我看五张照片，然后我被迫告诉Chrome请求桌面网站或下载他们的应用，而我对此毫无兴趣。 卢克，为什么人们要这样做？ 它是可怕的！

Luke: 路加：

That’s almost a form of dark pattern as well — I don’t know if you’re familiar with that term, dark pattern. But the idea is there’s a design that’s made purely to essentially confuse the user, trick the user, make the user’s life harder for the benefit of the business. That’s probably a good example there, in a way, with Yelp. Actually, they’re not doing what’s the best for the user, clearly. They’re doing what they think is best for the business.

那也几乎是深色图案的一种形式-我不知道您是否熟悉深色图案这个术语。 但是想法是，纯粹是为了使用户感到困惑，欺骗用户，使用户的生活变得更艰难而设计出来的，以谋求业务利益。 在某种程度上，这可能是Yelp的一个很好的例子。 实际上，显然，他们并没有在为用户做最好的事情。 他们正在做他们认为最适合企业的事情。

Now, it’d be really interesting to see whether the negative outweighs the positive for them, I’m sure. It does mean that they’ve got millions of people installing the app, but it also means they’ve got millions of people, like yourself, who are actually quite annoyed with them and probably go elsewhere. Those kind of things, yeah, can be really frustrating, and I think that is where you put the business needs above the needs of the user. Obviously, there’s a nice middle ground to reach, but I think there’s, yeah, something almost sinister about forcing people to do things that they don’t want to do.

现在，我敢肯定，看看负面因素是否大于正面因素对他们来说真的很有趣。 这确实意味着他们已经有数以百万计的人安装了该应用程序，但这也意味着他们已经有数以百万计的人，例如您自己，实际上对他们很恼火并且可能去了其他地方。 是的，这些事情真的很令人沮丧，我认为这就是您将业务需求置于用户需求之上的地方。 显然，这是一个很好的中间立场，但是，我认为，强迫人们去做不想做的事情几乎是危险的。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I mean, it’s like the case that you outlined earlier. You know, the simple picture with the path and the foot path, right? That’s sort of like the prime example I see it as, you know? It’s like, you’re trying to get users to do this one thing, and they’re doing what I do, which is just request the desktop website.

我的意思是，就像您前面概述的情况一样。 您知道吗，简单的图片包含路径和脚步路径，对吗？ 这有点像我看到的主要示例，您知道吗？ 就像，您正在尝试让用户去做一件事，而他们正在做我所要做的，这只是请求桌面网站。

Luke: 路加：

Yeah, exactly. All that means is you get essentially a worse user experience from it, and I’m sure if there was a good competitor to Yelp, then you would probably be using them instead.

是的，完全正确。 这意味着您从中获得的用户体验将变得更糟，而且我敢肯定，如果Yelp有一个好的竞争对手，那么您可能会改用它们。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, they don’t even have to do much.

是的，他们甚至不需要做很多事情。

David: 大卫：

I love that phrase dark pattern, and I’m curious. It sounds like that’s something that you come cross frequently in UX. Are there other familiar dark patterns that come across in mobile and web development?

我喜欢那句话暗模式，我很好奇。 听起来这是您在UX中经常遇到的问题。 在移动和Web开发中是否还有其他熟悉的黑暗模式？

Luke: 路加：

Yeah. I mean, there’s a whole … I think it’s darkpatterns.org, which lists all of them. There’s quite a few. We’ve all seen them. I think one of the probably most common ones is when you sign up to newsletters and you’re not sure whether to tick the box or un-tick the box because of the way it’s worded. It says, Tick the box to not receive our newsletter, and that kind of thing, so confusing language there to deliberately try and get people ticking or un-ticking a box and getting essentially the opposite of what they’d expect to see.

是的 我的意思是，有一个整体……我认为是darkpatterns.org ，其中列出了所有这些。 有很多。 我们都看过他们。 我认为可能是最常见的情况之一，是当您注册新闻通讯时，由于措辞的方式而不确定是勾选还是取消勾选。 它说： 勾选框以不接收我们的新闻通讯，以及诸如此类的事情，因此使那里的语言混乱，故意试图使人们在框内打勾或取消勾号，而实际上与他们期望看到的相反。

There’s things like sneaking products into baskets on e-commerce sites. So it may be that you’re buying a camera and they sneakily add a camera bag at the same time at the checkout and, if you’re not careful, you can actually end up buying something that you didn’t want at all. That’s another good example.

诸如将产品潜入电子商务网站上的篮子之类的事情。 因此，可能是您在购买相机，他们在结帐时同时偷偷地添加了相机包，如果您不小心，实际上可能最终会买到根本不需要的东西。 这是另一个很好的例子。

I think one of the other ones is the sort of easy-in and difficult-out. This is an example perhaps from the offline world, in a way. If you’re join a gym, it’s very easy to sign up. You can probably sign up online and just enter your details and then you’re signed up and good to go. But actually, when you want to cancel that gym membership, maybe you need to go down there in person or you need to send them a letter or something equally ridiculous. It’s not quite as easy to cancel as it is to sign up, and that’s a bit of a classic dark pattern, really.

我认为其中之一是容易进和难进。 在某种程度上，这可能是来自离线世界的示例。 如果您要参加体育馆，注册非常容易。 您可能可以在线注册，只需输入您的详细信息，然后就可以注册了。 但是实际上，当您想取消该体育馆的会员资格时，也许您需要亲自去那里，或者需要给他们发送一封信或同样荒唐的东西。 取消注册并不像注册一样容易，而且确实有点经典的深色图案。

David: 大卫：

20 pushups or we won’t let you out.

20个俯卧撑，否则我们不会放过您。

[Laughter]

[笑声]

Tim: 蒂姆：

You should change the acronym from UX to GUX, so it’s good UX, because clearly UX doesn’t mean good UX. You could be a UX professional and specialize in evil stuff, right?

您应该将缩写词从UX更改为GUX，因此它是好的UX，因为显然UX并不意味着好的UX。 您可能是UX专业人士，专门研究邪恶的东西，对吗？

Luke [20:04]: 路加福音[20:04] ：

Yeah. You could be a sort of dark UX-er, I guess, specializing in dark patterns. Fortunately, certainly speaking from experience, all the UX people I meet don’t really have that kind of outlook. I mean, to work in UX, you have to at least like people, or be able to tolerate people — to talk to them and to do user testing and that kind of thing. So it’s not a case of people getting to UX or businessmen who are kind of just trying to make as much money, at the expense of the users. In my experience, anyway.

是的 我猜您可能是一种黑暗的UX-er，专门研究黑暗模式。 幸运的是，从经验上肯定可以肯定，我遇到的所有UX用户都不具有这种远见。 我的意思是，要在UX中工作，您至少必须像人们一样，或者能够容忍人们-与他们交谈并进行用户测试以及类似的工作。 因此，不是人们接触用户体验或商人而只是试图以牺牲用户利益为代价赚钱的情况。 无论如何，以我的经验。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I have to say, though, if there was an evil UX conference, I would definitely go. I’d go for like three days.

不过，我不得不说，如果有一个邪恶的UX会议，我肯定会去。 我要去三天。

Luke: 路加：

[Laughs] There probably is one. It’s probably all undercover. But yeah, I think, in a funny way, it would be really interesting to go to, to see these tricks and things, and certainly the fact is dark patterns do work, in some ways, from a business perspective. Just the simple thing of the easy-in and difficult-out. I mean, I’m sure there’s plenty of people around the world who’ve got gym membership who never go but just can’t be bothered to actually jump through the hoops they need to cancel it.

[笑]大概有一个。 可能都是秘密的。 但是，是的，我认为，以有趣的方式去看这些技巧和事情将真的很有趣，当然，从商业角度来看，暗模式确实可以在某些方面起作用。 简单易进难出的事情。 我的意思是，我敢肯定，全世界有很多人从来没有去过健身房，但实际上他们并不会因为他们需要取消的篮球而烦恼。

David: 大卫：

Since we’re talking about negative experiences that we’ve had online, one of the sites that I have found that has a very awkward UX is Google Analytics, where you go and you try to find information. And I’m wondering to myself now as we’re talking about this whether or not they’ve structured it intentionally so that people don’t try to just casually go in and get the vanity metrics but they have to follow some sort of pattern to find the things that are important to them.

由于我们谈论的是在线上的负面体验，因此我发现具有非常尴尬的用户体验的网站之一是Google Analytics(分析)，您可以在其中搜索并尝试查找信息。 我现在在想我自己，因为我们正在谈论这个问题，他们是否故意构建它，以便人们不要试图随随便便进入虚荣感度量标准，而是必须遵循某种模式寻找对他们来说很重要的东西。

Luke: 路加：

It’s a really interesting point, I think. I’m probably not the best person to ask, because I’ve been using Google Analytics for more or less as long as it’s been around.

我认为这是非常有趣的一点。 我可能不是最好的人，因为自从问世以来，我就或多或少地使用了Google Analytics(分析)。

David: 大卫：

I’ve been using Google Analytics ever since it was Urchin.

自从Urchin以来，我就一直在使用Google Analytics(分析)。

Luke: 路加：

Yeah. I mean, I actually find it relatively easy to use and relatively intuitive. Now, that may be because I’ve been using it for a long time, and I’m interested to hear you have as well, but I think I don’t know if it’s a deliberate thing or more just the fact that there’s so much information they need to get to there, it’s very hard to lay it out. I mean, if you try to use other analytics tools, then you’ll actually probably appreciate how easy in some ways Google Analytics is to you. But, having said that, I’ve had plenty of people, particularly in the UX industry, tell me that it’s very hard to use and doesn’t make any sense at all. Yeah, I don’t know. Perhaps more user testing before I would fall for Google Analytics there.

是的 我的意思是，我实际上发现它相对易于使用且相对直观。 现在，这可能是因为我已经使用了很长时间，并且我很想听到您也有使用它，但是我想我不知道这是故意的还是更多的事实他们需要很多信息才能到达那里，很难进行布局。 我的意思是，如果您尝试使用其他分析工具，那么您实际上可能会喜欢Google Analytics(分析)在某些方面对您来说是多么容易。 但是，话虽如此，我有很多人，特别是在UX行业，告诉我这很难使用，根本没有任何意义。 是的，我不知道。 也许我需要更多的用户测试之后才能使用Google Analytics(分析)。

David: 大卫：

That is a fair point.

这是一个公平的观点。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Luke, I’m sure that you have had to spend some time convincing people who want to employ dark patterns to not employ dark patterns. What I mean by that is, for example, every single company I work at asks me to build a slideshow and put it on the front page. Without fail, every single one. It’s a miracle, really. But, a lot of times, when I try to talk to my employers and explain to them why nobody clicks on these things — most often there’s a better way to represent data, those sorts of things — they come back not with, Well, here’s a study that says opposite. They come back with, Well, we feel, or I feel like it should be this way because that’s just … It’s a point of emotion, rather than a point of fact. I’m curious if you’ve ever run into that situation, and how you go about convincing people to look at data and successful studies and companies that have done the right thing and done well by it. How you’ve convinced people otherwise, or how you go about convincing people otherwise.

卢克，我敢肯定，您必须花一些时间说服想要使用深色图案的人而不使用深色图案的人。 我的意思是，例如，我工作的每个公司都要求我制作一张幻灯片并将其放在首页上。 毫无疑问，每一个。 真是个奇迹。 但是，很多时候，当我试着跟我的雇主，向他们解释为什么没有人点击了这些东西-最经常有一个更好的方式来表示数据，这些各种各样的东西-他们回来没有用， 那么，这里的一项相反的研究。 他们回来了， 嗯，我们觉得 ，或者我觉得应该是这样，因为那只是……这是情感的要点，而不是事实的要点。 我很好奇您是否曾经遇到过这种情况，以及如何说服人们查看数据，成功的研究以及做得正确并且做得很好的公司。 否则，您如何说服人们，或者如何使人说服。

Luke [23:24]: 路加福音[23:24] ：

That’s a really good point, because, yeah, certainly the sort of carousel that you were talking about — the design carousel on the home page — that’s a classic one, because people are always keen to have that. Particularly if there’s lots of different people who’ve got a stake in the home page, because then it’s almost democratic. Everyone gets their say, as you rightly say yourself, they don’t tend to get many clicks. The are circumstances they do work in, but a lot of the time they don’t, and they’re more just a compromise that doesn’t really please anyone. You just have these things, and everyone’s happy because they can see their particular department or that particular product shown on the home page at some point, but yeah. Very inefficient use of space and other things that people sort of have banner blindness when it comes to those, and that kind of thing.

这是一个很好的观点，因为，是的，您肯定在谈论这种轮播-主页上的设计轮播-这是经典的，因为人们一直热衷于拥有这种轮播。 尤其是如果有很多不同的人在主页上拥有股份，那么这几乎是民主的。 每个人都有他们的发言权，正如您正确地说出的那样，他们不会获得很多点击。 他们确实在某些情况下工作，但很多时候却没有，他们只是一种妥协，并不能真正取悦任何人。 您拥有了这些东西，每个人都很高兴，因为他们可以在某个时候看到其特定部门或特定产品显示在主页上，但是是的。 人们对空间和其他事物的利用效率非常低下，在涉及到此类事物时会产生横幅盲目性。

I think for me, the first step is, as you say, use evidence. Previous studies. There’s a few studies around carousels, some of which are actually often used but perhaps a bit outdated now. But there is information out there. You can try and convince people, This is what previous studies have shown.

我认为对我来说，第一步就是使用证据。 之前的学习。 轮播有一些研究，其中一些实际上是经常使用的，但现在可能有些过时了。 但是那里有信息。 您可以尝试说服人们， 这是以前的研究表明的。

The best way to do it, though, is to use analytics for that carousel. So put the carousel live on the page. Give it a week, or a couple of months, and then say, Ooh, look, you’ve only have three clicks on this and two clicks on that one. And then, that kind of data is really hard to argue with, and then the best way to do it I think is to do an A/B test, where you have that sort of scrolling carousel and perhaps an alternative, which might just be one of those images in the banner, or some entirely different type of navigational element on the home page, and then see which one performs better.

但是，最好的方法是对轮播使用分析。 因此，将轮播显示在页面上。 给它一个星期或几个月的时间，然后说， 哦，看，您只需要单击三下，就可以单击两次。 然后，很难对这类数据进行论证，然后，我认为最好的方法是进行A / B测试，在这种情况下，您需要使用那种滚动轮播，或者可能是另一种选择。横幅中的这些图像之一，或主页上某些完全不同类型的导航元素，然后查看哪一个效果更好。

That works particularly well for e-commerce sites, because ultimately you can do that A/B test, and if one makes more money than the other, then you’ve got to have a very good argument and say why you should go with the one that doesn’t make you as much money.

这对于电子商务网站特别有效，因为最终您可以进行A / B测试，并且如果一个网站赚钱比另一个网站多，那么您就必须有一个很好的论点，并说出为什么应该选择一种不会让你赚太多钱的东西。

Tim: 蒂姆：

That’s an excellent point, and a great way to have those discussions. Listen, I know a lot of people who are listening to this show are going to want to read more about what you’re doing and find out more about you. How can people find you online, maybe even get in touch?

这是一个很好的观点，也是进行这些讨论的好方法。 听着，我知道很多正在听这个节目的人都想了解更多关于您在做什么，并了解更多关于您的信息。 人们如何在网上找到您，甚至可以保持联系？

Luke: 路加：

Yeah, sure. My website is lukehay.co.uk, so that’s probably the best way to get in touch and find out a bit more about me. As you mentioned at the start, there’s a book as well, which is Researching UX: Analytics, which is obviously published by SitePoint. So that, for me, has been written for people who are either UX people looking to use analytics more or even, let’s say, developers who haven’t really been using analytics or not using it to actually help inform their design decisions. And that’s sort of the starting point for them, I think.

当然可以。 我的网站是lukehay.co.uk ，所以这可能是联系并找到更多关于我的最佳方法。 正如您在一开始所提到的，还有一本书，即Researching UX：Analytics ，显然是由SitePoint出版的。 因此，对我而言，这些文章是为希望更多地使用分析方法的UX用户，或者甚至是尚未真正使用分析方法或未使用分析方法来实际帮助其设计决策的开发人员而写的。 我认为，这是他们的起点。

David: 大卫：

Sounds great. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the Versioning Show today.

听起来不错。 好吧，非常感谢您今天加入我们的Versioning Show。

Luke: 路加：

Thank you very much.

非常感谢你。

[Musical interlude]

[音乐插曲]

Tim: 蒂姆：

I am really, really, really glad that I got to rant about Yelp.

我真的，真的，非常高兴我对Yelp感到愤慨。

David: 大卫：

And I knew that evil Tim was going to dive into those dark patterns as soon as Luke mentioned them.

我知道，卢克一提到邪恶的蒂姆，他们就会陷入这些黑暗的模式。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yes. That sounds … I mean, listen. I wouldn’t actually implement these dark patterns, but just knowing about them and to going to an evil conference, that’s like one of my dreams. Who wouldn’t want to go to an evil conference? You’d see the evil keynote, you get all the evil merch, there’s probably an evil after party. That’d be great.

是。 听起来……我是说，听着。 我实际上不会实现这些黑暗的模式，但是仅了解它们并参加一个邪恶的会议，这就像我的梦想之一。 谁不想参加邪恶的会议？ 您会看到邪恶的基调，得到所有邪恶的商品，聚会后可能会有邪恶。 那简直太好了。

David: 大卫：

You know, that is probably not a bad way to market something like this. Maybe we should change the show to Evil Versioning and talk about the evil aspects of all of the things that our guests are doing.

您知道，这可能不是推销此类产品的好方法。 也许我们应该将节目更改为“邪恶版本控制”，并谈论客人在做的所有事情的邪恶方面。

Tim: 蒂姆：

That would be really cool, and probably very uncomfortable for most of our guests. But I guess we can extend an offer. If you’re evil, let us know. We’ll interview you.

对于我们的大多数客人来说，这真的很酷，而且可能非常不舒服。 但是我想我们可以延长报价。 如果您是邪恶的，请告诉我们。 我们将采访您。

David: 大卫：

I’ll tell you, my sister has always told me that her great ambition her entire childhood was to grow up and become the evil scientist, with the beakers and the green bubbling liquids and all of those things. Evil is attractive. Evil appeals to people, and knowing how to do evil, of course, teaches you how not to be evil, right? [Cheeky voice]

我告诉你，我的姐姐一直告诉我，她整个童年的野心是长大并成为一名邪恶的科学家，用烧杯和绿色的起泡液体以及所有这些东西。 邪恶是有吸引力的。 邪恶吸引人，并且知道如何做恶，当然会教你如何不作恶，对吗？ [厚脸皮的声音]

Tim: 蒂姆：

I think we can justify it like that.

我认为我们可以这样证明。

David: 大卫：

Okay.

好的。

Tim: 蒂姆：

With that being said, Luke is a UX professional, and that’s who we spoke to. [Laughter]

话虽如此，Luke是UX专业人员 ，这就是我们与之交谈的对象。 [笑声]

It was really interesting to see the many ways he goes about just the things that we don’t even think about. When I build something, I most often hand it to somebody else to consider the implications of how users will interact with this thing or how many times a certain button has been clicked on, and if that button has gone on to lead to a purchase ten steps later.

看到他为我们甚至没有想到的事情采取多种方式真的很有趣。 当我构建某件东西时，我通常会将其交给其他人，以考虑用户将如何与该东西交互或单击某个按钮多少次，以及该按钮是否继续导致购买，这意味着十次稍后。

I’m most of all thinking of the immediate. If I’m building this thing so that it’s performant, or so that a user in a different country can both have access to it and that it can be translated to language that they speak. I’m not often thinking about the global picture, so to speak.

我最想到的是眼前的事情。 如果我正在构建此东西以使其具有高性能，或者使其他国家/地区的用户都可以访问它，并且可以将其翻译成他们说的语言。 可以这么说，我并不是经常考虑全球情况。

David [27:56]: 大卫[27:56] ：

One of the things I know that always comes up, particularly when I’m doing front-end engineering, is how you’re going to instrument the app, and the instrumentation being where you put in the hooks that are going to catch what events are relevant and what matters in terms of what users are using and what kind of feedback you’re going to get. And sometimes I find it’s really useful to talk to the UX person in advance before even starting to build the interface, just as Luke said, because they’ll tell you where you need to put those hooks in and what things need to trigger some sort of response so that we can track metrics that are relevant.

我知道总是会发生的一件事，尤其是当我在进行前端工程时，就是您要如何对应用程序进行检测，而检测是放置在钩子中以捕获哪些事件的地方相关性，以及对于什么用户正在使用以及您将获得什么样的反馈而言至关重要的问题。 正如Luke所说，有时我发现在甚至开始构建界面之前预先与UX人员交谈真的很有用，因为它们会告诉您需要在何处插入这些钩子以及需要触发什么事情的某种方式响应，以便我们可以跟踪相关指标。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, and that type of communication is so imperative. We’ve often spoken about how whether you are a developer working with another designer or a product stakeholder or a user experience person, you absolutely need to get out in front and be proactive about that. Once you get the design and start coding is too late. Often, you catch things. For example, if someone is depending on a mouse hover for some pure business reason and that’s something that needs to happen, you as a developer might have a lot more insight into, Hey, not everything will fire a hover event, and therefore, we should probably re-think how we’re trying to capture this specific metric.

是的，这种交流非常必要。 我们经常谈论您是与其他设计师合作还是与产品利益相关者或用户体验人员合作的开发人员，您绝对需要挺身而出并保持积极主动。 一旦获得设计并开始编码已为时已晚。 通常，您会抓到东西。 例如，如果某人出于纯粹的商业原因而依赖鼠标悬停，而这是需要发生的事情，那么作为开发人员，您可能会更深入地了解， 嘿，并非所有事物都会触发悬停事件，因此，我们应该重新考虑我们如何尝试捕获此特定指标。

David: 大卫：

And designers should be thinking about these things as well. In fact, in my experience, I’d say at least half the time, there’s been nobody on the job who was assigned to be a UX professional, but the designer took on that responsibility, and would do user testing and would build those aspects into the design so that we would know what to work with. It’s interesting, because almost never have I seen engineers take on the role of UX, but I’ve seen designers take it on a lot.

设计人员也应该考虑这些问题。 实际上，以我的经验，至少有一半的时间，没有人被任命为UX专业人士，但设计师承担了这一责任，并会进行用户测试并构建这些方面进入设计，以便我们知道如何使用。 有趣的是，因为我几乎从未见过工程师担当过UX的角色，但是我见过很多设计师都曾担任过UX。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah. I think as developers and engineers or whatever the term is this year, we should really develop an interest in user experience, because we are almost closest to the front lines, in that aspect. We are building the interface that the users interact with, and I think it’s a bad excuse to say, Well, that’s not my job. This is what my boss wants and therefore I’m going to turn it into code right here and now. I think it’s responsible of us to consider the implications, how users are going to interact with this thing that we’re being asked to build and, if we find something that isn’t going to work or if it’s evil, we should say something about that. We should do what we can to make sure the work that we are producing is ultimately something that delivers the best user experience possible because everybody wins that way.

是的 我认为无论是作为开发人员还是工程师，或者无论今年是什么术语，我们都应该对用户体验产生真正的兴趣，因为在这一方面，我们几乎最接近前线。 我们正在建立与用户交互的界面，我认为这是一个不好的借口， 好吧，这不是我的工作。 这就是我老板想要的，因此我现在就将其转换为代码。 我认为我们有责任考虑其中的含义，用户将如何与被要求构建的东西进行交互，如果发现不起作用或有问题的话，我们应该说些什么关于那个。 我们应该竭尽所能，以确保我们正在制作的作品最终能够提供最佳的用户体验，因为每个人都以这种方式获胜。

David: 大卫：

Now I’m thinking about all of those bitter designers that I’ve worked with. The ones who’ve obviously spent hours and hours behind the scenes arguing and trying to fight the good fight until they ultimately lost and had to design something that had a dark pattern in it, which then got handed to the engineers and they had to justify it to the engineers. I’ve been in those conversations, and I’ve worked with those designers, seeing dark patterns that had to be implemented, and knowing that those discussions happened behind the scenes and knowing that was something that I could push back on at this point but it’s already been argued and decided.

现在，我正在考虑与我合作的所有那些痛苦的设计师。 那些显然花了几个小时在幕后争论并试图打出好战，直到最终失败并不得不设计出带有深色花纹的东西的人，然后将其交给工程师，他们不得不证明给工程师。 我参加过这些对话，并且我与那些设计师一起工作，看到了必须实施的深色图案，并且知道这些讨论在幕后进行，并且知道这是我可以继续进行的工作，但是它已经被争论和决定了。

Tim: 蒂姆：

It’s a very demoralizing process, because, like we were discussing with Luke, very often you will have someone who appeals to emotion rather than facts or data and says, “I want this thing on the website or app because it appeals to me and I like it and therefore we have to put it there. Meanwhile, you might know for a fact that the feature implemented in that way is going to have a negative impact on what you’re doing. Not only is it bad for the company, but it hurts your pride, in a way, because you care about the things that you’re building. I mean, we all should, right?

这是一个非常令人沮丧的过程，因为就像我们在与卢克(Luke)讨论时一样，您经常会有一个吸引情感而不是事实或数据的人说：“我想要这个东西在网站或应用上，因为它吸引了我自己喜欢它，因此我们必须把它放在那里。 同时，您可能知道这样的事实，即以这种方式实现的功能将对您的工作产生负面影响。 这不仅对公司不利，而且在某种程度上损害了您的自尊心，因为您在乎要建造的东西。 我的意思是，我们所有人都应该吧？

I don’t think anybody is sitting around here just doing this to pass the time and pay the rent. And if so, I hope you find a career that you enjoy! But I certainly try to wake up every day and go to work thinking, All right, I’m really going to care about the product today. And that means that, if I get asked to do something that I know sucks, it’s not a fun experience and it kind of hurts a little bit, especially if it’s something that somebody says this is final and there’s no more arguing about this.

我认为没有人会坐在这里只是为了打发时间和支付房租。 如果是这样，我希望您找到自己喜欢的职业！ 但是我当然每天都想起床去思考， 好吧，今天我真的要关心该产品。 这意味着，如果我被要求做我知道很糟糕的事情，那并不是一种有趣的经历，并且会有点伤害，特别是如果有人说这是最终决定并且对此不再赘述。

David [32:08]: 大卫[32:08] ：

See, Tim, I knew you weren’t really evil.

瞧，蒂姆，我知道你不是真的很邪恶。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Or maybe I just want you to think that, you know?

或者，也许我只是想让您认为那样，您知道吗？

[Laughter]

[笑声]

David: 大卫：

Part of your nefarious plan.

您的邪恶计划的一部分。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah.

是的

David: 大卫：

One of the things that really impressed me about the way that Luke talked about that was the importance of using those analytics to make those arguments and make the case after the fact if you can’t win up front. Because often we’re in a situation we can’t win up front and, sometimes, it may even be subjective. We might not even know for a fact, maybe in this particular instance with this particular, unique audience — that gallery on the home page, that slider on every home page, — maybe in that particular instance, for that particular audience, that slider is going to make the difference between huge sales and no sales at all in a positive way.

卢克(Luke)谈论这件事的方式真正使我印象深刻的是，使用这些分析方法进行论证并在事无巨细的情况下进行辩护的重要性。 因为通常情况下我们无法赢得胜利，有时甚至可能是主观的。 我们甚至可能不知道一个事实，也许在这个特定的实例中，这个特定的，独特的受众群体–主页上的画廊，每个主页上的滑块，–在那个特定的实例中，对于特定的受众群体，滑块是将以积极的方式在巨大的销售量和根本没有的销售量之间产生区别。

Tim: 蒂姆：

That’s true, and I think that’s why it’s important as a developer, when you are building something new, to always incorporate analytics, even if no one has said anything about it and that’s going to put more tickets onto your plate. It’s an important thing that you should speak up about it.

没错，我认为这就是为什么对于开发人员而言，当您构建新的东西时，始终合并分析非常重要，即使没有人说过任何话，这也会给您带来更多麻烦。 您应该说出这一点很重要。

How are we going to track these interactions? Are we going to make sure we have something like analytics or in-page events that are making sure that we know when a user clicked on this button … or definitely clicked on this button, because sometimes you’re asked to implement share buttons and you really want that data to know in the future that nobody clicks on those things. They just share the URLs like the web inventors intended.

我们如何跟踪这些互动？ 我们是否要确保我们有诸如分析或页面内事件之类的内容，以确保我们知道用户何时单击此按钮……或绝对单击此按钮，因为有时会要求您实现共享按钮，而您我真的希望这些数据将来知道没有人点击这些东西。 他们只是像网络发明者所希望的那样共享URL。

David: 大卫：

It’s true. One of the things about Luke that really impressed me. He’s in a data analysis, UX role. He talked about data analytics and he’s not formally trained, just as many of the guests on our show have not been formally trained. And I know, back in the day, when I started doing web analytics, it was a new science and nobody really had any context for it, and I certainly wasn’t qualified with my anthropology degree. But your passion drives you, and you figure out what you need to know, and I love that Luke has taken on the responsibility of that and just gone out and taught himself and learned from the experts what he needed to know.

这是真的。 关于卢克的一件事让我印象深刻。 他担任数据分析，UX角色。 他谈到了数据分析，并且没有接受过正式培训，就像我们节目中的许多嘉宾都没有经过正式培训一样。 我知道，当我开始进行网络分析的那一天，它是一门新科学，没有人真正了解它，我当然没有获得人类学学位的资格。 但是，您的热情驱使您，并且您弄清楚了需要知道的内容，而且我很喜欢Luke承担了这一责任，并且走出去自学并向专家学习了他需要知道的知识。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah. It’s just another testament to the fact that this industry at least aims to be about sharing knowledge and helping each other. No one is at this alone. We all depend on designers who depend on developers who depend on user experience professionals. I think that’s just another way that we can call continue to learn from each other.

是的 这是该行业至少旨在共享知识和互相帮助的事实的又一证明。 没有人会独自一人。 我们都依赖于设计师，设计师依赖于依赖用户体验专业人员的开发人员。 我认为这是我们可以继续相互学习的另一种方式。

David: 大卫：

And there is some great resources out there, such as the darkpatterns.org site that Luke mentioned, and I know that I’m going to want to go and read his book again and take another look at the Google Analytics, the way that it’s evolved over the years, and see if I can’t make better sense of it these days.

而且那里有很多很棒的资源，例如Luke提到的darkpatterns.org网站，我知道我想再次去阅读他的书，然后再来看一下Google Analytics(分析)，经过多年的发展，现在看看我是否能更好地理解它。

Tim: 蒂姆：

What I’ve definitely learned today is, well, I’ve been reminded to track everything. I’m working on building a product right now. I need to go and make sure all analytics and in-page events are being tracked, specifically because I really, really hate having to implement things that don’t work well for users. And if you often find yourself in that situation, then you should make sure that all of your things are tracked and hooked up to deliver data to business stakeholders as well.

今天，我绝对学到的是，提醒我跟踪所有内容。 我正在开发产品。 我需要确保跟踪所有分析和页内事件，特别是因为我真的非常讨厌必须实施对用户不利的事情。 而且，如果您经常遇到这种情况，则应确保对所有事物进行跟踪和关联，以将数据也传递给业务涉众。

David: 大卫：

And data can come from all sorts of sources, and since user testing is one of those things that is, as Luke pointed out, kind of both subjective and objective, tweeting the company, giving feedback that is not in the form of a click but in the form of writing your feedback. That also gets pulled into the UX analysis.

数据可能来自各种来源，而且正如Luke所指出的那样，由于用户测试是主观和客观的其中一种，因此该公司在Twitter上发布了推文，给出的反馈不是单击，而是以写您的反馈的形式。 这也被纳入用户体验分析中。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Very true. That means I should probably start mailing Yelp hand-written letters about how much I dislike the … I can even include screenshots, you know? Dear Yelp, please see attached screenshot. I do not like this. Sincerely, Tim.

非常真实 这意味着我可能应该开始邮寄Yelp手写的信，说明我有多不满意……我什至可以包括屏幕截图，您知道吗？ 亲爱的Yelp，请参阅随附的屏幕截图。 我不喜欢这个。 真诚的，蒂姆。

David: 大卫：

We are not going to maybe make a hashtag and get our audience doing that for you, are we?

我们可能不会制作主题标签并让我们的听众为您做到这一点，对吗？

Tim: 蒂姆：

I mean, if someone wanted to do that on their own accord, I certainly wouldn’t stop them.

我的意思是，如果有人想按照自己的意愿这样做，那么我当然不会阻止他们。

David: 大卫：

Okay. Well, we’re not going to do that, so Yelp, you are not going to be spammed by the Versioning Show.

好的。 好吧，我们不会这样做，所以Yelp，您不会被Versioning Show所吸引。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, no, that would be bad. But what you should do is you should talk to us about dark patterns that you have found or dislike. Or not dark patterns; UX experiences that you’ve had that you particularly enjoyed. And also battles that you’ve won, because we all like to hear about developers, designers, and UX professionals who have fought the good fight and won and improved on the experience that a customer will soon have with the product or application.

是的，不，那很不好。 但是您应该做的是，您应该与我们谈谈您发现或不喜欢的深色图案。 还是没有暗纹； 您曾经特别享受过的UX体验。 还要赢得您的胜利，因为我们所有人都喜欢听到开发人员，设计师和UX专业人员奋战不息，并赢得并改善了客户很快会在产品或应用程序上获得的经验的经历。

David: 大卫：

Yep. Let us help celebrate your story. Tweet us at @VersioningShow.

是的 让我们来帮助庆祝您的故事。 通过@VersioningShow鸣叫我们。

---

---

Tim: 蒂姆：

Well, thank you so much for listening, everybody. We always enjoy getting to talk technology with all of you.

好，非常感谢大家的倾听。 我们总是喜欢与大家交谈技术。

We would also like to thank SitePoint.com, and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat, with production help from Ralph Mason. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @VersioningShow — and give us a rating on iTunes and let us know how we’re doing.

我们还要感谢SitePoint.com以及我们的制作人Adam Roberts和Ophelie Lechat，以及Ralph Mason的制作帮助。 请随时在Twitter( @VersioningShow)上向我们发送您的评论，并在iTunes上给我们评分 ，让我们知道我们的工作状况。

Tim: 蒂姆：

We’ll see you next time, and we hope you enjoyed this version.

下次见，我们希望您喜欢这个版本。

翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/ux-research-analytics-dark-patterns-luke-hay/