与妮可·桑切斯（Nicole Sanchez）确保技术中的文化和性别多样性

In this episode of the Versioning Show, David and Tim are joined by Nicole Sanchez, the Vice President of Social Impact at GitHub. They discuss the challenges of ensuring cultural and gender diversity in technology, the economic benefits of diverse communities … and David’s private room in Slack for doing politically incorrect things with the new /giphy plugin.

在Versioning Show的这一集中，David和Tim以及GitHub社会影响副总裁Nicole Sanchez参加了会议。 他们讨论了确保技术中文化和性别多样性的挑战，多样化社区的经济利益……以及Slack的David私人房间，以使用新的/ giphy插件来处理政治上不正确的事情。

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显示笔记 (Show Notes)

• Nicole on Twitter: @nmsanchez

  妮可在Twitter上： @nmsanchez

• Nicole’s article on Medium about her dad

  妮可(Nicole)在Medium上有关她父亲的文章

• AmeriCorps

  AmeriCorps

• McKinsey’s Diversity Matters report

  麦肯锡的多元化事务报告

• meritocracy

  英才制

• Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers

  西班牙专业工程师协会

• Cisgender

  西斯甘德

• Contributor Covenant

  贡献者盟约

• Slack’s Giphy plugin

  Slack的Giphy插件

• Say hello on Twitter: @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom

  在Twitter上问好： @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom

对话重点 (Conversation Highlights)

there is so much genius that we just have never harnessed in technology. There is so much creativity. There is so much aptitude. There is so much desire and curiosity. Because of human-made barriers to access to technology or access to higher education, we’ve lost all of that talent. We’ve lost generations and generations of talent. — [7:00]

天才如此之多，以至于我们从来没有利用过技术。 有很多创造力。 有这么多的才能。 有太多的渴望和好奇心。 由于人为获取技术或获得高等教育的障碍，我们已经失去了所有这些才能。 我们失去了几代人的才华。 — [7:00]

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My father had a brilliant math mind, and his classmates were people who went on to develop programming languages and hardware that we continue to use today. Something having nothing to do with how smart he was caused him to fall off or be pushed off that track. — [7:30]

我父亲的数学思维非常聪明，他的同学们都是继续开发我们今天继续使用的编程语言和硬件的人。 与他多么聪明导致他跌落或被推离轨道无关。 -[7:30]

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if your company is run predominantly by white men, and you added white women, you outpace your competitors in revenue by 10%. If you add racial and ethnic diversity on top of that — and we’re talking about at all levels across all functional areas — you increase it by 35%. — [12:10]

如果您的公司主要由白人经营，并且您增加了白人妇女，那么您的收入将比竞争对手高10％。 如果您在此基础上增加种族和种族多样性，而我们正在谈论的是各个职能领域的各个层面，那么您将增加35％。 -[12:10]

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there are a lot of folks who think, Oh, okay, so I’ll just have to go find black and brown people and bring them into my company, and magically they help me turn profit, and that’s not at all what happens. That’s not at all how it works. — [12:50]

有很多人认为， 哦，好吧，所以我只需要去寻找黑人和棕色人，并将他们带入我的公司，然后他们神奇地帮助我扭亏为盈，那根本不发生什么。 这根本不是怎么回事。 -[12:50]

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I’ll say — from where I sit as a hiring manager — Show me the computer science student who got a 3.0 and worked two jobs and was involved in stuff on their campus and is the first in their family to go to college and persisted. I will hire that person over the perfect 4.0 who had no friction in their college experience every single time. — [14:53]

我会说-在我担任招聘经理的位置上- 给我看看那位计算机科学专业的学生，​​他有3.0，工作了两个工作，参与了校园的工作，并且是他们家庭中第一个上大学并坚持下去的人。 我会雇用那个完美的4.0岁以上的人，每次他们的大学经历都没有摩擦。 -[14:53]

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When people say, You have a degree from Stanford, Nicole, and I say, I do. All you know is that I went to Stanford for four years and I did all the things they told me to do to get that piece of paper. That’s it. That’s all you know about my Stanford degree. There is not a merit there that is transferable necessarily to me being successful in tech. — [16:08]

当人们说， 您拥有妮可的斯坦福大学学位，我说， 我愿意。 您所知道的是，我去了斯坦福四年了，我做了他们告诉我要做的所有事情来拿到那张纸。 而已。 这就是我对斯坦福大学学位的全部了解。 那里没有可以转化为我在技术上成功的优点。 -[16:08]

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I have worked so many companies who thought it was going to be sufficient to just put jobs up on their website and say, Now, people, come to me and bring us the most talented folks that are out there. Gosh, why aren’t they more diverse? It doesn’t work that way. You need to know what the reputation is of your company in communities of color or whatever it is that you’re trying to recruit for, because we talk to each other. — [18:42]

我曾经工作过很多公司，他们认为仅在其网站上发布职位就足够了，然后说， 现在，人们来找我，带给我们最有才华的人。 天哪，他们为什么不更加多样化？ 那样行不通。 您需要知道您的公司在有色人种社区中的声誉是什么，或者您试图招募它的原因是什么， 因为我们彼此交谈 。 -[18:42]

成绩单 (Transcript)

David: 大卫：

Hey, what’s up, everybody. This is M. David Green …

嘿，大家好。 这是大卫·格林(M. David Green)……

Tim: 蒂姆：

… and this is Tim Evko …

……这是蒂姆·埃夫科……

David: 大卫：

… and you’re listening to episode 14 of the Versioning podcast.

…，您正在收听Versioning播客的第14集。

Tim: 蒂姆：

This is a place where we get together to discuss the industry of the web, from development to design, with some of the people making it happen today, and planning where it’s headed in the next version.

在这里，我们可以聚在一起讨论从开发到设计的网络行业，其中一些人使之成为现实，并计划下一版的发展方向。

David: 大卫：

Today, we’re talking with Nicole Sanchez, who is the Vice President of Social Impact at GitHub. Why don’t we get this version started?

今天，我们正在与GitHub社会影响副总裁Nicole Sanchez交谈。 为什么我们不启动该版本？

Nicole, how are you doing today?

妮可，你今天好吗？

Nicole: 妮可：

I’m great. Thanks for having me on.

我很好。 谢谢你让我参加。

David: 大卫：

Since this is the Versioning show, we always ask our guest a philosophical question, and your philosophical question today is this: in your current career, what version are you, and why?

由于这是Versioning展览，所以我们总是向客人问一个哲学问题，而今天您的哲学问题是：在您当前的职业中，您是哪个版本，为什么？

Nicole: 妮可：

I love this question. All right, I had a similar conversation with a theater geek friend of mine the other day, and I told her that I was in my third act of life. And she got really upset, because in her world, there are only three acts, but I didn’t think about that. In my mind, there are 5 or 7 or 20, I don’t know, but she finally agreed to let me call myself version 3.0, because I had childhood, and that was one, with lots of different iterations, and then at some point as an adult and a mom, that became two, with many different iterations.

我喜欢这个问题。 好吧，前几天，我和我的一个剧场极客朋友进行了类似的交谈，我告诉她我正处于人生的第三阶段。 她真的很沮丧，因为在她的世界上只有三场演出，但我没有想到。 在我的脑海中，我不知道有5或7或20个，但她最终同意让我称自己为3.0版，因为我有个童年，那是一个有很多不同迭代的版本，然后在某个时候一个成年人和一个妈妈的观点，变成了两个，经历了许多不同的迭代。

As my children are now teenagers, and I’m able to — and quite honestly — think more about work now than I have in the last 16 years. Like I said, I have a 16-year-old and I have a 13-year-old. This is definitely the beginning of version 3 for me, because I am able to iterate more quickly, like I think I’m releasing updates in a much more regular pace. I feel much more confident in the stability of me at 3.0 than I ever did prior to now.

由于我的孩子现在已经是青少年，所以我能够(坦率地说)现在对工作的思考比过去16年要多。 就像我说的，我有16岁，我有13岁。 对于我来说，这绝对是版本3的开始，因为我能够更快地进行迭代，就像我认为我以更规律的速度发布更新一样。 与以前相比，我对3.0的稳定性感到更加自信。

This is where I get to put the creative work in version 1, and all those iterations too, and all those iterations really bringing it together in version 3, but it doesn’t mean I’m done at the end of 3. There might be 25, I don’t know. We’ll see.

这是我将创意作品放入版本1的地方，所有这些迭代也都放入了版本3中，但实际上这并不意味着我在3年底就完成了。 25岁，我不知道。 我们拭目以待。

[Laughter]

[笑声]

Tim: 蒂姆：

Absolutely not, but I always feel more confident investing in version 3 of something.

绝对不是，但是我总是对在第3版中投资感到更有信心。

Nicole: 妮可：

Well, there you go, right? Exactly. Then, whoever is not ready to be an earlyish adopter, you can wait until version 4 of Nicole and invest in me.

好吧，你去了吧？ 究竟。 然后，无论谁还不愿意成为早期采用者，您都可以等到Nicole的第4版并向我投资。

David: 大卫：

Looking forward to it.

期待它。

Nicole: 妮可：

Thank you!

谢谢！

David: 大卫：

I’m really interested in your title. It’s not something that you see at every company but there are a few companies who have implemented programs like yours.

我真的对你的头衔感兴趣。 您并不是在每个公司都看到这种东西，但是有一些公司已经实施了像您这样的程序。

Nicole: 妮可：

Yeah. Social Impact is meant to be broader than just being the head of diversity and inclusion. What it covers is diversity inclusion, but also our community partnerships. So that means inside the tech community, as well as in our local communities around things that don’t have anything necessarily to do with tech. The third thing it means is really trying to work with our engineering team and others on the GitHub staff, making sure that people can come onto GitHub and leverage their knowledge for good — for positive social impact — whether that’s building something cool that solves a real social issue, or that’s contributing to something that somebody else is building. We really want to start making that easier for people to leverage open source for positive impact. That’s what the social impact team covers.

是的 社会影响的意义不只是成为多元化和包容性的负责人。 它涵盖的是多元化的包容性，还有我们的社区伙伴关系。 因此，这意味着在技术社区内部以及在我们的本地社区中，与技术无关的事物都将存在。 这意味着的第三件事实际上是尝试与我们的工程团队和GitHub团队中的其他人员合作，确保人们可以加入GitHub并充分利用其知识，从而产生积极的社会影响，无论这是否在创造出能够解决实际问题的出色方法社会问题，或促成其他人正在建立的东西。 我们真的想开始使人们更容易利用开源来产生积极影响。 这就是社会影响力团队的工作范围。

David: 大卫：

That’s interesting. So your role, it covers both internal candidates and people who work inside the company as well as the people who are using your service.

那很有意思。 因此，您的角色既涵盖内部候选人，也包括公司内部工作人员以及使用您服务的人员。

Nicole: 妮可：

That’s right. One of the primary things we started working on was the diversity of our own staff, which I will say and we are very clear prior to about a year ago was abysmal and not even close to where the industry standards are. We’ve met industry standards, but the industry overall has some abysmal statistics in terms of demographics. Now, our job is to exceed that.

那就对了。 我们开始从事的主要工作之一是我们员工的多样性，我要说的是，大约一年前我们很清楚，这很糟糕，甚至与行业标准都不接近。 我们已经达到行业标准，但是整个行业在人口统计方面有一些糟糕透顶的统计数据。 现在，我们的工作就是超越这一范围。

In addition, we’re working on initiatives to diversify the community of open-source users and contributors, because without both of those things at work, we aren’t going to get the level of innovation that we really know we need in open source and in software overall, and in technology overall. So, I really enjoy working on that, and that’s what we’re doing here at GitHub.

此外，我们正在努力使开源用户和贡献者社区多样化的倡议，因为如果没有这两个方面的工作，我们就无法获得我们真正知道的开源所需要的创新水平以及整个软件和整个技术。 因此，我真的很乐意为此工作，而这就是我们在GitHub上正在做的事情。

David [4:24]: 大卫[4:24]：

When you say standards of diversity, I’m curious. A lot of people might not have a clear understanding of that, or they may have an image in their mind of what that means but not really see it from the perspective that you’re bringing to it. I’m curious if you could share with this what you mean by that.

当您说多元化的标准时，我很好奇。 很多人可能对此没有清晰的了解，或者他们可能对这意味着什么有一个印象，但实际上并没有真正从您提出的角度看到它。 我很好奇您是否可以分享这个意思。

Nicole: 妮可：

Sure. I think the tried and true two things that people always look at are race ethnicity and gender. Those are very important demographic factors when you’re thinking about diversifying your workforce because unfortunately, we’re still at a time where those two things alone can predict a lot about your career, success, your academic achievement, your overall earning, your lifespan — not just in an American context, but globally as well. Those two things are very important to us.

当然。 我认为人们经常看到的经过考验和真实的两件事是种族和性别。 当您考虑使员工队伍多元化时，这些因素是非常重要的人口因素，因为不幸的是，我们仍然处在这两个时刻可以预测您的职业，成功，学术成就，整体收入，寿命的很多情况下-不仅在美国范围内，而且在全球范围内。 这两件事对我们非常重要。

In addition, we care about things like gender identity beyond the binary. We care very much about sexual orientation, religion, age, physical abilities, veteran status, the list could really go on and on. What we are primarily concerned with is folks who are underrepresented in tech currently but that their demographic background overly predicts their career success or lack thereof in technology, in higher education, et cetera.

此外，我们还关注二进制以外的性别认同之类的问题。 我们非常关心性取向，宗教信仰，年龄，身体素质，退伍军人身份，这个名单可能会持续不断。 我们主要关心的是目前在科技领域的代表性不足的人，但他们的人口背景过分地预测了他们在技术，高等教育等方面的职业成功或缺乏职业成就。

It’s all of those things none of us really asked to be born as, but they have this disproportionate impact due to prejudices, due to bias, due to racism, due to misogyny — those things that have a disproportionate impact on how well you’re going to do in life. We actively seek people from underrepresented backgrounds to work on and act for GitHub, because that’s what’s going to allow us to bring about the next level of innovation and a better platform for a wider range of users. That’s what we’re talking about. Does that answer your question?

所有这些都不是我们真正要出生的东西，但由于偏见，偏见，种族主义，厌女症等因素，它们产生不成比例的影响-这些东西对您的生活状况产生不成比例的影响生活中要做。 我们积极寻求背景不足的人员去为GitHub工作并为GitHub行动，因为这将使我们能够为更广泛的用户带来更高水平的创新和更好的平台。 这就是我们正在谈论的。 这是否回答你的问题？

David: 大卫：

Yeah. That’s helpful. I suppose you yourself identify as having a background that is underrepresented in certain ways.

是的 有帮助 我想您自己认为自己的背景在某些方面没有得到很好的体现。

Nicole: 妮可：

That’s absolutely right. I’m a Mexican-American woman who is over 40. I’m a mom. There are a lot of ways that you can slice that up, and what I have found in my career, my first job working on diversity and tech was in 1999. The amount of misunderstanding about what it would mean for the industry to bring people from unlikely, underrepresented backgrounds in the tech was alarming. We think it’s alarming now, but let me tell you in 1999, the kinds of things that I was hearing!

没错 我是40岁以上的墨西哥裔女性。我是妈妈。 有很多方法可以分解，我在职业生涯中发现的东西是我从事多样性和技术工作的第一份工作，是在1999年。不太可能，该技术的代表性不足令人震惊。 我们认为现在令人震惊，但是让我在1999年告诉您我所听到的事情！

What I consistently said, and still consistently say today, is there is so much genius that we just have never harnessed in technology. There is so much creativity. There is so much aptitude. There is so much desire and curiosity. Because of human-made barriers to access to technology or access to higher education, we’ve lost all of that talent. We’ve lost generations and generations of talent.

我一直说到今天仍然坚持说的是，有这么多的天才使我们从未利用过技术。 有很多创造力。 有这么多的才能。 有太多的渴望和好奇心。 由于人为获取技术或获得高等教育的障碍，我们已经失去了所有这些才能。 我们失去了几代人的才华。

I wrote a piece that I put up on Medium about my dad and him attempting to go to UC Berkeley in the early 60s, and being forced out due to some really horrific but racist actions of others. My father had a brilliant math mind, and his classmates were people who went on to develop programming languages and hardware that we continue to use today. Something having nothing to do with how smart he was caused him to fall off or be pushed off that track.

我写了一篇关于我父亲和他试图在60年代初去加州大学伯克利分校的论文，当时他因其他人的一些非常恐怖但种族主义的行为而被迫退出。 我父亲的数学思维非常聪明，他的同学们都是继续开发我们今天继续使用的编程语言和硬件的人。 与他多么聪明导致他跌落或被推离轨道无关。

I tell his story not because his is unique, but because it is everywhere, every day, because we’ve lost thousands and thousands — at this point, millions — of people who could have contributed to very important scientific discoveries, and because we don’t invest in them and because we’ve let our own prejudices get in the way, they don’t have access. That’s what I fundamentally care about. I personally identify as somebody who is underrepresented in tech.

我讲他的故事不是因为他的独特性，而是因为它无处不在，每天，因为我们已经失去了成千上万的人(目前，成千上万的人)，这些人可能为非常重要的科学发现做出了贡献，而我们却没有不要投资于他们，并且因为我们让自己的偏见陷入困境，所以他们无权获取。 这就是我从根本上关心的问题。 我个人认为自己是在科技领域代表性不足的人。

Tim [8:12]: 蒂姆[8:12]：

Speaking about 1999 — which I don’t think is a question you’re going to hear in tech conversations a lot — but speaking about 1999, you said that was when you first got started with diversity in tech. How did you come to that role?

谈到1999年-我认为您不会在技术对话中听到很多这个问题-但是谈到1999年时，您说那是您第一次开始了解技术多样性。 您是如何担任这个角色的？

Nicole: 妮可：

I graduated from college in 1994, and my very first job was working on diversity in community service, specifically in Boston. I joined the staff of one of the first AmeriCorps programs, and it was the first year that AmeriCorps really had expanded to be a national program.

我1994年大学毕业，而我的第一份工作是致力于社区服务的多样性，特别是在波士顿。 我加入了第一个AmeriCorps计划的工作人员，这是AmeriCorps真正扩展到国家计划的第一年。

I had spent almost five years working on building diverse teams that were doing good things in the community — in elementary schools, in hospitals, building playgrounds, really interesting things — and we were proving, day in and day out, how a diverse group of people could make great things happen together. That was better because we were diverse, not in spite of our diversity but because of our diversity.

我花了将近五年的时间来组建一支多元化的团队，在社区中做得很好-在小学，医院，操场上，做一些非常有趣的事情-我们日复一日地证明，多元化的团队人们可以使伟大的事情在一起发生。 那是更好的选择，因为我们是多元化的，不是因为我们的多样性而是因为我们的多样性。

There was an entrepreneur out in Boston whose path I came across, and he said, I want you to do that at my startup. Now, I will not say the name of the startup, and I will not ever disclose that, because ultimately what happened is I got pregnant and had a baby and was fired for having a baby, and was told that my priorities now should be my children — my child — and that they were going to need people who could sleep in sleeping bags under their desks, and I wasn’t up for the challenge of startup life.

波士顿有一位企业家，我遇到了他，他说， 我希望您在创业时就这样做。 现在，我不会说初创公司的名称，也永远不会透露，因为最终发生的事情是我怀孕，生了个孩子，并因生下孩子而被解雇，并被告知我现在的工作重点应该是孩子们-我的孩子-他们将需要可以在书桌下的睡袋里睡觉的人，而我不愿意接受创业的挑战。

Prior to that happening, though, we had some amazing success. We had an engineering team that was predominantly Native American, and it was the first time that I ever saw the power of the cohort model, where if you hired one really talented person from the underrepresented background and then they said, I know three other people to whom I’m very close who would be great for this team, and because we will travel in groups that are safe, and in groups, this person who is Native American brought three friends who were also Native American, and they formed the core of our engineering team. And they looked out for each other’s success.

但是，在此之前，我们取得了惊人的成功。 我们有一支主要是美洲原住民的工程团队，这是我第一次看到同类群组模型的强大功能，如果您雇用了一个代表性不足的真正才华横溢的人，然后他们说， 我认识另外三个人与我非常接近的人对这个团队来说将是很棒的，并且因为我们将以安全的团体旅行，并且这个团体是印第安人，带来了三个也是印第安人的朋友，他们成为了核心我们的工程团队。 他们期待着彼此的成功。

The power of the cohort model as a way to hire for diversity was evident at that moment, so we got to see some really interesting things. We also made sure we had a staff that was half women, half men. Of course, this was at a time before we started talking really openly about challenging the gender binary, but at the time we were about half men, half women. We saw some really cool things happen. Now, when the pressure of money and the pressure from investors came, it was one of the first things to get thrown out — which was very dejecting to me. I was very dejected and just said, This is not an industry that actually cares about this, and I left tech for quite a while. That’s how I came into it and I left with a very bad taste in my mouth on that first round.

当时，队列模型作为雇用多样性的一种方式的力量显而易见，因此我们看到了一些非常有趣的东西。 我们还确保我们的职员是女性一半，男性一半。 当然，这是在我们开始真正公开谈论挑战性别二元性之前的时间，但那时我们大约只有一半男人，一半女人。 我们看到了一些非常酷的事情发生。 现在，当资金的压力和投资者的压力到来时，这是被扔掉的第一批东西之一-这让我很沮丧。 我很沮丧，只是说， 这不是一个真正关心这个行业的行业，我离开了很长一段时间。 我就是这样进入的，在第一轮比赛中我口中的味道很差。

Tim: 蒂姆：

No, I can definitely understand. We don’t show video but I had a very horrified look on my face at the story.

不，我绝对可以理解。 我们没有播放视频，但是我对这个故事的表情非常恐惧。

Nicole: 妮可：

You did. You had a really horrified look on your face! You had an appropriately horrified look on your face. [Laughs]

你做到了 你的脸真的很恐怖！ 您的脸上表情有些恐怖。 [笑]

Tim: 蒂姆：

Speaking about money for a second, we often hear in the community from — I’ll give others the benefit of the doubt — people who may be suspicious that diversity efforts do cost money. Do you want to speak to how you feel about that?

一秒钟谈到金钱，我们经常在社区中听到-我会给其他人带来疑问-人们可能会怀疑多样性的努力确实会花费金钱。 您想谈谈您的感受吗？

Nicole [11:32]: 妮可[11:32]：

Sure. I have very strong feelings about that, I’m sure you can understand. Diversity efforts cost money. They do. Up front, they are expensive, and I likened it to a flywheel. Once you get that flywheel revolving a few revolutions, a lot of it starts to run on its own. Getting it off the ground is the very … It’s just like any startup. That’s an incredibly expensive time.

当然。 我对此有非常强烈的感觉，我相信你会理解的。 多样性努力要花钱。 他们是这样。 在前面，它们很昂贵，我把它比作飞轮。 一旦使飞轮旋转了几圈，很多飞轮就开始独立运行。 真正起步是……就像任何一家初创公司一样。 那是一个非常昂贵的时间。

Now, on the returns end is where we recently just in the last two years got data that people are willing to accept, I think, overall, and it came from McKinsey. It basically said this (this is across sector): if your company is run predominantly by white men, and you added white women, you outpace your competitors in revenue by 10%. If you add racial and ethnic diversity on top of that — and we’re talking about at all levels across all functional areas — you increase it by 35%.

现在，就收益而言，最近两年来，我认为总体上人们愿意接受的数据来自麦肯锡 。 它基本上是这样说的(这是跨部门的)：如果您的公司主要由白人经营，并且您增加了白人妇女，那么您的收入将超过竞争对手10％。 如果您在此基础上增加种族和种族多样性，而我们正在谈论的是各个职能领域的各个层面，那么您将增加35％。

So, as expensive as it might be to get up and running, you start to reap returns pretty quickly if you’re doing it well. The problem is that if you’re doing it well is where so many people fail. On the one hand on the front end, it absolutely costs money. On the back end, you will reap the rewards. In the middle is hard work, and there are a lot of folks who think, Oh, okay, so I’ll just have to go find black and brown people and bring them into my company, and magically they help me turn profit, and that’s not at all what happens. That’s not at all how it works.

因此，尽管启动和运行起来可能很昂贵，但如果做得好，您很快就会开始收获回报。 问题是， 如果做得好 ，那么很多人就会失败。 一方面，它绝对要花钱。 在后端，您将获得奖励。 在中间是艰苦的工作，很多人都认为， 哦，好吧，所以我只需要去寻找黑人和棕色人，并将他们带入我的公司，然后他们神奇地帮助我扭亏为盈，那根本不会发生什么。 这根本不是怎么回事。

That’s where I think companies fall down. It’s not even so much these days on the desire to do it. It’s the, Okay, we don’t even know where to start. That’s what I’ve seen more than anything.

我认为这就是公司倒下的地方。 如今，对这样做的渴望甚至不再那么重要了。 是的， 好的，我们甚至都不知道从哪里开始。 那就是我所见过的。

David: 大卫：

Understanding where to start — in some ways, I think it flies in the face of this concept of the meritocracy that people see in high tech. I believe you might have a few opinions on the concept of meritocracy.

了解从何处开始-在某些方面，我认为这与人们在高科技中看到的精英管理理念相去甚远 。 我相信您可能对精英管理概念有一些看法。

Nicole: 妮可：

I do. Well, for those who don’t know the origin of meritocracy, it was actually first written as a joke. The idea that you could decide who was meritorious, or whatever the word is, who is objectively more deserving of something than someone else. It’s not a concept that has roots in any sort of social science — nothing that you can prove.

我做。 好吧，对于那些不知道任人唯贤的人，这实际上最初是作为一个玩笑而写的。 您可以决定谁是有功的，或者无论是什么字眼，谁在客观上比其他人更有价值。 这不是一个植根于任何社会科学领域的概念-您无法证明任何东西。

People in tech and in other sectors went to what they thought would be objective measures. What’s your GPA? What school did you go to? What college did you go to? — because I’m going to use all of the biased information that society has told me is important and decide to give that more meaning than anything else.

科技界和其他行业的人们去了他们认为是客观的措施。 你的GPA是多少？ 你去哪所学校？ 你上的是哪所大学？ —因为我将使用社会告诉我的所有有偏见的信息都很重要，并决定赋予其更多的含义。

The problem is in every single one of those systems, the same bias is built in. You’re just lumping your bias on top of other people’s bias. If you say, Oh, you went to Stanford and you got a 4.0 in computer science, and there’s no analysis of how women from all backgrounds and people of color had been pushed out of that computer science experience, of course, you’re going to have a very homogeneous group of people who are able to attain a 4.0 in computer science at Stanford, having nothing to do with how smart people objectively are.

问题出在那些系统的每个系统中，都内置了相同的偏见。您只是将偏见混在其他人的偏见之上。 如果您说， 哦，您去了斯坦福大学，并且在计算机科学领域获得了4.0，并且没有分析来自所有背景和有色人种的女性是如何被排除在这种计算机科学经验之外的，当然，您将在斯坦福大学有一群非常同等的人，能够在计算机科学方面达到4.0，与客观上的聪明人无关。

If you say it’s merits, and I’ve put it on numbers, or I’ve said, That person completed that coding challenge faster than anyone else, you put meaning into things that seem objective, but they’re not. None of those things are objective. So I’ll say — from where I sit as a hiring manager — Show me the computer science student who got a 3.0 and worked two jobs and was involved in stuff on their campus and is the first in their family to go to college and persisted. I will hire that person over the perfect 4.0 who had no friction in their college experience every single time.

如果您说这是优点，我已经把它放在数字上，或者我说过， 那个人比任何人都更快地完成了编码挑战，那么您将意思放在看起来很客观的事情中，但事实并非如此。 这些东西都不是客观的。 因此，我要说-在我担任招聘经理的位置上- 给我看看那位计算机科学专业的学生，​​他有3.0，工作了两个工作，参与了校园的工作，并且是他们家庭中第一个上大学并坚持不懈的学生。 我会雇用那个完美的4.0岁以上的人，每次他们的大学经历都没有摩擦。

The thing I love about GitHub is that we specifically do not have a higher education requirement on any job. It’s really important for us — and I see you all talk a lot about open source — it’s really important for us to keep that as one of our pillars of hiring, because so many people learn open source not through school but because a friend showed them, then they dabbled, then they got really excited about it, then they spent a lot of time on GitHub or something else working on an open-source project. None of that was attached to school.

我对GitHub的爱好是，我们对任何工作都没有更高的学历要求。 对我们而言，这非常重要-我看到大家都在谈论开源-对我们而言，保持这一点作为我们招聘的Struts之一非常重要，因为有很多人不是在学校学习开源，而是因为一位朋友向他们展示了开源，然后他们涉猎，然后对此感到非常兴奋，然后在GitHub或其他项目上花费了大量时间在开源项目上。 这些都没有上学。

We have engineers here who actually haven’t even graduated from high school and they are some of our top engineers, because it had nothing to do with how smart they were. In some cases, it was socioeconomic factors. In some cases, it was because of a learning difference. College, in and of itself, does not confirm much other than you went to college. When people say, You have a degree from Stanford, Nicole, and I say, I do. All you know is that I went to Stanford for four years and I did all the things they told me to do to get that piece of paper. That’s it. That’s all you know about my Stanford degree. There is not a merit there that is transferable necessarily to me being successful in tech.

我们这里的工程师实际上甚至还没有从高中毕业，他们是我们的一些顶级工程师，因为这与他们的聪明程度无关。 在某些情况下，这是社会经济因素。 在某些情况下，这是由于学习上的差异。 除了您上大学以外，大学本身并不能证明什么。 当人们说， 您拥有妮可的斯坦福大学学位，我说， 我愿意。 您所知道的是，我去了斯坦福四年了，我做了他们告诉我要做的所有事情来拿到那张纸。 而已。 这就是我对斯坦福大学学位的全部了解。 那里没有可以转化为我在技术上成功的优点。

In fact, several companies have found diminishing returns over time as they did pattern recognition and they tried to repeat, Oh, people who went to this school and were this major and they got these grades must be good in our company. It ceases to be true the longer you use that as a pattern.

实际上，有几家公司在进行模式识别时发现，随着时间的流逝，收益逐渐减少，并且他们试图重复。 哦，去这所学校而且是专业的人，并且获得了这些分数，对我们公司来说一定是很好的。 您将其用作模式的时间越长，它就不再是对的。

Tim [16:48]: 蒂姆[16:48]：

Let’s say I am someone who is responsible for looking through resumes and making hiring decisions at a company. What would your advice be if I am looking to objectively and without bias evaluate the competencies of someone for a role? What would your advice be to someone in that position?

假设我是负责浏览简历并在公司中做出招聘决定的人。 如果我希望客观，公正地评估某人的胜任力，您的建议是什么？ 您对担任该职位的人有何建议？

Nicole: 妮可：

I would say, first and foremost, it depends on where you are in the hiring pipeline. If your job is resume review, then the number one thing I would ask you to do is redact a ton of information from resumes. But if you’re not going to be doing the interviewing necessarily and you didn’t do the recruiting beforehand, what you should be doing is not looking at name, name of college, address. There are a whole bunch of things that trigger biases for any of us. It would trigger biases for me. It’s not like people of color are exempt. Names, addresses, schools, all that stuff triggers biases where I start to tell a story to myself about a candidate that may or may not be true.

首先，我要说的是，这取决于您在招聘渠道中的位置。 如果您的工作是简历审查，那么我要您做的第一件事就是从简历中删除大量信息。 但是，如果您不一定要进行面试并且没有事先进行招聘，那么您应该做的就是不要看姓名，大学名称，地址。 有很多事情会触发我们每个人的偏见。 这会给我带来偏见。 并不是有色人种免税。 姓名，地址，学校等所有东西都会引起偏见，在这里我开始向自己讲一个关于候选人的故事，这个故事可能是真实的，也可能不是真实的。

If you look to my resume and you said, Oh, she graduated from college in 1994, you start doing the math and you say, She’s probably in her mid 40s — not you necessarily, but somebody reviewing resumes might go, Oh, is she going to really be able to keep up with our fast-paced startup environment? She’s in her mid 40s. That’s a ding on me. You have no idea: I could be the most energetic 44-year-old you’ve ever met. I could be, whatever. I could just be one of those people who doesn’t sleep. Whatever it is, you don’t know, but it has triggered biases that make you think you know — those lazy shortcuts. There’s tons of research on what names do, and black-sounding names, Latino-sounding names and what those do to people who are reviewing resumes. If you’re reviewing resumes, that’s the number one thing I would say, is redact a ton of information.

如果您查看我的履历，然后说， 哦，她于1994年大学毕业，就开始算数学，然后说， 她可能已经40多岁了 -不一定，但有人会审查履历， 哦，是的吗？真正能够跟上我们快节奏的启动环境？ 她已经40多岁了。 那是我的遗憾。 你不知道：我可能是你见过的最有活力的44岁。 我可能是的，随便 我可以成为那些不睡觉的人之一。 不管是什么，您都不知道，但是它引发了一些偏见，使您以为自己知道这些懒惰的捷径。 关于名字的用途，名字听起来很黑的人，拉丁裔听起来的名字以及那些对正在审查简历的人所做的事情，有大量研究。 如果您正在查看简历，那就是我要说的第一件事，那就是编辑大量信息。

If you’re earlier in the pipeline and you’re recruiting, you got to start looking somewhere else. I have worked so many companies who thought it was going to be sufficient to just put jobs up on their website and say, Now, people, come to me and bring us the most talented folks that are out there. Gosh, why aren’t they more diverse? It doesn’t work that way. You need to know what the reputation is of your company in communities of color or whatever it is that you’re trying to recruit for, because we talk to each other. We absolutely talk to each other. We know which companies our friends have had bad experiences at, and we know which companies our friends have good experiences at.

如果您正在准备中，并且正在招聘，则必须开始寻找其他地方。 我曾经工作过很多公司，他们认为仅在其网站上发布职位就足够了，然后说， 现在，人们来找我，带给我们最有才华的人。 天哪，他们为什么不更加多样化？ 那样行不通。 您需要知道您的公司在有色人种社区中的声誉是什么，或者您试图招募它的原因是什么， 因为我们彼此交谈 。 我们绝对互相交谈。 我们知道我们的朋友在哪些公司经历不好，我们知道我们的朋友在哪些公司经历很好。

It takes a while, and a lot of the outbound effort. This where the cost comes in — the outbound effort to go to places like the conference for the Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers. Some of the costs upfront is the outbound recruitment, where you show up for people and it’s not the first time you show up at a career fair that’s for diverse candidates. It’s the third time, the fourth time, the fifth time they see that you actually show up, put your money where your mouth is, put your people hours where your mouth is. Your reputation has to be built. Then, you’re going to start to see a more inbound traffic from overlooked communities and from underrepresented communities. That part takes a lot of work.

这需要一段时间，并且需要大量的出站工作。 这就是成本的来源-诸如去参加西班牙专业工程师协会会议之类的工作。 前期的一些成本是出国招聘，您会在这里向人们展示，这并不是您第一次参加针对各种候选人的招聘会。 这是他们第三次，第四次，第五次看到您真正出现，把钱放在嘴里，把人的时间放在嘴里。 必须建立您的声誉。 然后，您将开始看到来自被忽视社区和代表性不足社区的更多入站流量。 这部分需要很多工作。

If you’re in that part of the pipeline, I would say that’s what you have to do. And then there are other things you have to do all along the hiring pipeline that work against the biases that we all hold, so that you can actually yield a diverse group of candidate finalists so you can feel really good about your top three or five finalists. And you go, Wow, that’s a really nice mix of people. I can’t choose poorly now.

如果您在管道的这一部分中，我会说那是您要做的。 然后，在整个招聘流程中，您还需要做其他事情来克服我们大家都抱有的偏见，以便您实际上可以产生一组不同的候选决赛入围者，以便使您对前三到五名决赛入围者感到非常满意。 哇，你真是个好人。 我现在不能选择不好。

David [20:20]: 大卫[20:20]：

In the formal environment — the hiring environment inside of an organization — I can see that advice. But it’s interesting as you’re working for GitHub, and of course, GitHub is big on the open-source community. Ideally, the open-source environment should be a very democratizing environment where anybody can contribute, but it hasn’t actually worked out that way.

在正式环境中(组织内部的招聘环境)，我可以看到该建议。 但是，在您为GitHub工作时，这很有趣，当然，GitHub在开源社区中占有重要地位。 理想情况下，开源环境应该是一个非常民主的环境，任何人都可以贡献力量，但实际上并没有这样解决。

Nicole: 妮可：

No, it hasn’t.

不，还没有。

David: 大卫：

I’m curious if you can share a little bit of your exposure to that, and what you’re doing about that from inside of GitHub.

我很好奇您是否可以在GitHub内部分享您的一些了解以及您在做什么。

Nicole: 妮可：

One of the things that we found in the last couple of years around hiring technical talent and being part of GitHub is that folks assumed that your GitHub contributions, your contribution graph, whatever your repos say, would be a huge part of how we hire, and it’s just not. It’s not. I think other companies do it a lot more than we do.

在过去几年中，我们发现聘请技术人才并成为GitHub的一员是，人们认为您的GitHub贡献，您的贡献图(无论您的回购协议怎么说)将是我们聘用方式的重要组成部分，事实并非如此。 不是。 我认为其他公司比我们做的要多得多。

What we discovered is that in order to build GitHub, we needed things that weren’t connected to open-source experience, because open-source experience, as it has existed, truly favors people who come in with a lot of confidence and disproportionately favors our own demographic user base which is honestly, white guys in North America and Europe. That’s the core of our user base.

我们发现，为了构建GitHub，我们需要与开放源代码体验无关的东西，因为开放源代码体验(它已经存在)真正地使充满信心的人们感到青睐，并且不成比例地给予青睐。老实说，我们自己的人口统计用户群是北美和欧洲的白人。 那是我们用户群的核心。

When we realized that that’s fine but it’s insufficient, we realized we needed to hire differently. One of the things that we did in the last year was we have no community and safety team for a really long time, for the first seven years of GitHub’s existence. It wasn’t until we started really diversifying our user base that users said, Hey, if I’m going to come on and I’m from underrepresented background, I need to know what tools are in place for my safety online. If this is going to truly be a social coding experience, I want to know who I’m being social with, and if somebody turns nasty, I want to know what tools I have at my disposal to keep those folks away from me.

当我们意识到这很好但是还不够时，我们意识到我们需要以不同的方式雇用。 去年，我们要做的一件事是，在GitHub成立的最初七年中，我们很长一段时间都没有社区和安全团队。 直到我们真正开始使我们的用户群多元化时，用户才说： 嘿，如果我要继续工作并且我的背景知识不足，我需要知道有哪些工具可以确保我的在线安全。 如果这真的要成为一种社交编码体验，我想知道与谁交往，如果某人变得讨厌，我想知道我可以使用哪些工具来使这些人远离我。

We implemented our first community and safety team, which is disproportionately staffed by people from underrepresented backgrounds — for the very purpose of those people being fluent in what their experiences have been in online social communities and how vulnerable they have felt, so that we can use their experience and leverage it to build the tools they would have like to have seen and experienced three years ago, four years ago, five years ago.

我们建立了我们的第一个社区和安全团队，该团队由来自代表性不足的人组成的团队比例过高-正是出于这些人能够流利地了解在线社交社区的经历以及他们感觉到的脆弱程度，以便我们可以使用他们的经验，并利用它来构建他们希望在三年前，四年前，五年前看到和体验的工具。

We hired a leader for that team. She’s amazing and she’s a trans woman of color. She is phenomenal at her job, and she can see things from a lot of different perspectives, and points things out all the time that, I think, our more traditional users and builders of GitHub just couldn’t see. They haven’t experienced it. Our CEO had said this himself: I didn’t have a community and safety team because I didn’t know how nasty people could be online, because I’m a cis white guy who didn’t experience these things.

我们为此团队聘请了一位领导者。 她很棒，是有色人种的跨性别女人。 她的工作非常出色，并且可以从许多不同的角度看待事物，并且始终指出我认为我们更传统的GitHub用户和GitHub构建者看不见的事物。 他们还没有经历过。 我们的CEO自己这样说： 我没有社区和安全团队，因为我不知道讨厌的人会上网，因为我是一个没有经历过这些事情的白人。

David: 大卫：

I’m not sure if everybody out there knows the term cis.

我不确定那里是否每个人都知道顺式这个词。

Nicole: 妮可：

Cis. Cisgender means that you identify with the gender assigned at birth, as opposed to being gender queer or trans or something like that. Somebody who says, Oh, you’re a white man. Yes, I’m a white man, and that’s it in his case. Having a transgender woman lead the team that talks about community and safety is a really powerful thing.

顺式 Cisgender表示您与出生时指定的性别相同，而不是性别同性恋者或跨性别者或类似的东西。 有人说， 哦，你是白人。 是的，我是白人，就他而言就是这样。 让跨性别女人领导团队讨论社区和安全是一件非常有力的事情。

We also hired the woman who wrote Contributor Covenant to be on that team — Coraline Ada Ehmke, another transgender woman — and she is well known in the community as somebody who has advocated for codes of conduct online. She wrote what we considered to be the platinum standard in Contributor Covenant, and we hired her. She’s on the Community and Safety team because she is very well versed in how things can go sideways for vulnerable people online.

我们还聘请了撰写《 贡献者公约》的女性加入该团队-另一位变性女性Coraline Ada Ehmke-她在社区中广为人知，是倡导在线行为准则的人。 她在《贡献者公约》中写了我们认为是白金标准的东西，我们聘用了她。 她之所以加入社区与安全团队，是因为她非常了解在线上的弱势群体会如何侧重事情。

We’re really proud of this, because we have a specific viewpoint on this that we’ve asserted around how you should feel when you’re on GitHub. One of them is safe, and that for us is a big step forward in the last year around deciding that we were going to have a specific viewpoint as opposed to say, Well, everything is OK; just stay away from each other. Like we actually don’t behave that way, and we got a lot of pushback for it. But you know what? This is the community we’re trying to build. If you’re going to really open the doors to new developers from underrepresented backgrounds, you better make sure they have a great experience when they come along.

我们为此感到非常自豪，因为我们对此有一个明确的看法，我们断言了您在GitHub上时的感受。 其中一个是安全的 ，对我们来说，这是去年迈出的一大步，它决定我们将有一个特定的观点，而不是说：“ 好，一切都很好。 彼此保持距离。 就像我们实际上不那样做一样，我们为此付出了很多努力。 但是你知道吗？ 这是我们要建立的社区。 如果您要真正为来自代表性不足的背景的新开发人员敞开大门，则最好确保他们在经历时拥有丰富的经验。

Tim [24:46]: 蒂姆[24:46]：

Yeah, excellent. I want to talk about pushback for a second. I think there are some people who are new to this because they have never experienced any of this in their lives. But I know there are others who, coming from that same perspective, tend to push back against diversity efforts, and they cite — from what I’ve seen — two main things. I was wondering if you had an answer to them. The first thing being that when there are efforts to make a community safer, there can sometimes be identification of a false positive, wherein someone is identified as being a harasser when they truly had no intent.

是的，太好了 我想谈一谈后推。 我认为有些人对此并不陌生，因为他们一生中从未经历过任何此类经历。 但是我知道还有其他一些人，从相同的角度出发，倾向于反抗多样性的努力，并且从我所看到的情况中，他们列举了两个主要方面。 我想知道您是否对他们有答案。 第一件事是，当努力使社区更安全时，有时可能会识别出误报，其中当某人确实没有意图时会被识别为骚扰者。

Nicole: 妮可：

Yeah. Well, we have a really very vigorous Terms of Service team — that comes out of our support team — that is incredibly thoughtful about these things. They’ll pull me in, and they’ll pull others in all the time, if they think this is something that isn’t cut and dry. They’ll get a lot of opinions before moving forward, because at the end of the day, you’re really just trying to get as much data as you can about What am I looking at? Did this person mean harm? It doesn’t matter if they meant harm; the other person felt harm. What can we do?

是的 好吧，我们有一支非常强大的服务条款小组-来自我们的支持小组-对这些事情的考虑非常周到。 他们会吸引我，并且会一直吸引其他人，如果他们认为这不是割裂和干燥的话。 在继续前进之前，他们会得到很多意见，因为最终，您实际上只是在尝试获取尽可能多的有关我在看什么的数据。 这个人是故意伤害吗？ 它们是否意味着伤害无关紧要； 对方感到伤害。 我们可以做什么？

We have really robust Terms of Service team that goes through these kinds of cases regularly. What we found is, at the end of the day, the more communication we can have with the user who has accused another person and those who have been accused, the better our outcomes. Because if we say to a user, Hey, Tim has said you’ve used some really offensive language. We went through the issue in this repo, and what we have found is that we see a few times you’ve used these words. It’s starting to rub people the wrong way. It’s not exactly against our terms of service, but …"

我们有强大的服务条款团队，会定期处理此类案件。 最终，我们发现，与被指控的用户和被指控的用户进行的交流越多，我们的结果就越好。 因为如果我们对用户说， 嘿，蒂姆说您使用了一些非常令人反感的语言。 我们在此回购中讨论了这个问题，发现我们发现您几次使用过这些词。 它开始以错误的方式摩擦人们。 这并不完全违反我们的服务条款，但是……”

We’re very open with our users, and nine times out of ten, the user says, Oh, my gosh, I didn’t even know that I was doing that. Thank you for telling me. Then we go back to the accuser and we say, Look, we’ve talked to them. They’ve agreed not to use that phrase anymore. They’ve agreed not to do that anymore, and the person says, Thank you, I really appreciate it.

我们对用户非常开放，十分之九的用户说， 哦，天哪，我什至不知道自己在这样做。 谢谢你告诉我。 然后我们回到原告，说， 看，我们已经与他们进行了交谈。 他们同意不再使用该词组。 他们已经同意不再这样做，对方说， 谢谢，我真的很感激。

So sometimes, we’re just like community managers and mediators that way. The one time out of 10 — and maybe that’s too high — that it really spins out of control, we actually don’t have any problem shutting someone down on our site. It’s our site. We’re a privately held company. It’s our site. If we look and we’re like, man, this person has a real pattern of abuse, we need to explain why we’re shutting them down and shut it down — because we don’t want this on our platform. Those egregious kinds of situations are very few and far between, and then it’s a lot of making sure we have very smart people in a very diverse team looking through the gray-area ones a lot. They spend a ton of time poring over details.

所以有时候，我们就像社区经理和调解人一样。 十分之一的时间-也许太高了-它确实失控了，实际上，将某人关闭在我们的网站上没有任何问题。 这是我们的网站。 我们是一家私有公司。 这是我们的网站。 如果我们看上去很像这个人，那么这个人有一种真正的虐待模式，我们需要解释为什么我们要关闭他们并将其关闭-因为我们不希望在我们的平台上这样做。 那些令人震惊的情况很少见，而且相距甚远，因此有很多事情可以确保我们在一个非常多样化的团队中拥有非常聪明的人，他们经常在灰色地带进行观察。 他们花费大量时间仔细研究细节。

I’ll give you a very clear example of something that happened. We had a user who said that he was being harassed online. We had a team of three looking into the pattern of harassment. He was a teenager, the guy who reported. He was a teenager, 16 years old, and we started looking at the pattern of harassment, and wondering if it was one of his friends trolling him — like the patterns and the IP addresses started to look like they were local. We did some real forensic work on this, and then I ended up getting on a Google Hangout with him to talk to this kid face to face to say, What’s up? Like, Are you OK? Can I talk to your parents?

我会给你一个非常清楚的例子，说明发生的事情。 我们有一个用户说他在网上受到骚扰。 我们有一个由三人组成的小组来调查骚扰的模式。 他是个少年，据报道。 他只有16岁，那时他还是个少年，我们开始研究骚扰的方式，想知道这是否是他的朋友在骚扰他-就像这种方式和IP地址开始看起来像是本地的一样。 我们对此进行了一些真正的取证工作，然后我最终与他进行了Google Hangout，与这个孩子面对面交谈，说， 怎么了？ 像， 你还好吗？ 我可以和你父母谈谈吗？

Our users are humans. Our users are people who are having feelings, and we want them to have these great experiences, and so that went on for quite a while with me checking in with him regularly, because he’s also a kid who’s trying to get into tech. We wanted to make sure we were doing right by him. I spent a lot of time with that kid and the harassment died down. We engaged him in a lot of Q&A about what he wanted to have happen. We asked him if he’s getting bullied at school, and we really went above and beyond with this kid. I can’t imagine — I think above and beyond what other tech companies would do — but I can’t imagine GitHub not doing that, because our users are everything to us.

我们的用户是人类。 我们的用户是有感觉的人，我们希望他们有这些很棒的经验，因此我经常与他签约已经有一段时间了，因为他也是一个尝试进入技术领域的孩子。 我们想确保我们在他身边做对了。 我和那个孩子呆了很多时间，骚扰逐渐消失了。 我们邀请他就他想发生的事情进行很多问答。 We asked him if he's getting bullied at school, and we really went above and beyond with this kid. I can't imagine — I think above and beyond what other tech companies would do — but I can't imagine GitHub not doing that, because our users are everything to us.

Whether you’re a professional coder who’s like in the middle of doing some stuff at NASA, or you’re a 16-year-old kid who’s really trying to get their foot in the door of coding, I hope that what you feel is that on the other end of this GitHub experience, there are a lot of humans recognizing your humanity in the code. We’re just working hard on scaling that, as it is tricky, but our VP of support is someone who’s completely committed to this notion that even though you’re dealing in code, it doesn’t mean that your humanity stops.

Whether you're a professional coder who's like in the middle of doing some stuff at NASA, or you're a 16-year-old kid who's really trying to get their foot in the door of coding, I hope that what you feel is that on the other end of this GitHub experience, there are a lot of humans recognizing your humanity in the code. We're just working hard on scaling that, as it is tricky, but our VP of support is someone who's completely committed to this notion that even though you're dealing in code, it doesn't mean that your humanity stops.

Tim [29:24]: Tim [29:24]:

I think it’s definitely clear and it’s definitely a heart-warming story and it just makes me proud to be a GitHub user to be completely honest with you. Thank you for that.

I think it's definitely clear and it's definitely a heart-warming story and it just makes me proud to be a GitHub user to be completely honest with you. 谢谢你

Nicole: Nicole:

Thank you. I appreciate it. I’m really proud of this company, and we’ve certainly come a long way just in the last two years.

谢谢。 我很感激。 I'm really proud of this company, and we've certainly come a long way just in the last two years.

David: 大卫：

It’s remarkable to see what GitHub is doing. I’m curious if you see the kind of efforts that you’re doing reflected at other companies. Who’s doing it well? Who’s really accomplishing something these days?

It's remarkable to see what GitHub is doing. I'm curious if you see the kind of efforts that you're doing reflected at other companies. Who's doing it well? Who's really accomplishing something these days?

Nicole: Nicole:

I have a few favorite companies who I think are making great strides. I think Slack, Twilio, Pandora — and partially that’s because I can vouch for the people who are doing the work in those companies, and I see what they’re trying to do. All of those companies are trying to build communities and these are all companies that are very technical, but they don’t forget that at the root is the user experience.

I have a few favorite companies who I think are making great strides. I think Slack, Twilio, Pandora — and partially that's because I can vouch for the people who are doing the work in those companies, and I see what they're trying to do. All of those companies are trying to build communities and these are all companies that are very technical, but they don't forget that at the root is the user experience.

Pandora is a place where you go and people are delighting in music, and it’s a great place to recruit and harness the talent of diverse individuals, because music is as diverse as humanity. When you go to their office, you can really feel that. Twilio has done an amazing job of making human an API experience — like, yeah, you’re working in APIs, but there’s this real human desire for knowledge and human desire for information and interesting data that comes out of Twilio.

Pandora is a place where you go and people are delighting in music, and it's a great place to recruit and harness the talent of diverse individuals, because music is as diverse as humanity. When you go to their office, you can really feel that. Twilio has done an amazing job of making human an API experience — like, yeah, you're working in APIs, but there's this real human desire for knowledge and human desire for information and interesting data that comes out of Twilio.

Slack, I think, has been very vocal about their need for a diverse set of people building their products. They’re entirely about people collaborating and communicating with each other, but where I really saw the rubber hit the road with Slack was when they did their Giphy install — their Giphy plugin. I don’t know if you all use it. In Slack, you can just slash giphy and then put a sentiment. I can do /giphy happy dance and it will generate an appropriate GIF for me to send to somebody. I don’t have to go searching through GIFs online.

Slack, I think, has been very vocal about their need for a diverse set of people building their products. They're entirely about people collaborating and communicating with each other, but where I really saw the rubber hit the road with Slack was when they did their Giphy install — their Giphy plugin . I don't know if you all use it. In Slack, you can just slash giphy and then put a sentiment. I can do /giphy happy dance and it will generate an appropriate GIF for me to send to somebody. I don't have to go searching through GIFs online.

When they rolled that out, my team — the Social Impact team — got very nervous, and we said, OK, look. If Slack didn’t curate these GIFs well, this could be really ugly. My team quietly did a whole bunch of things that could be misconstrued. We put, not epithets, because those are always nasty, but if you just put, like in my case, /giphy Latina, I was like,Oh, what’s it going to be?“ Every single time a GIF came up, you can tell that somebody hand curated these GIFs to remove abuse from the curated set of GIFs.

When they rolled that out, my team — the Social Impact team — got very nervous, and we said, OK, look. If Slack didn't curate these GIFs well, this could be really ugly. My team quietly did a whole bunch of things that could be misconstrued. We put, not epithets, because those are always nasty, but if you just put, like in my case, /giphy Latina , I was like, Oh, what's it going to be?“ Every single time a GIF came up, you can tell that somebody hand curated these GIFs to remove abuse from the curated set of GIFs.

Now, it sounds like a small, silly esoteric thing, but when you’re on the receiving end of harassing imagery, when you’re on the receiving end of racialized tropes from media, the fact that you can not abuse somebody even accidentally on Slack using that Giphy command, to me was a huge piece of evidence that the right people are building this product. There’s a diverse team of people thinking through their plugins. That, to me, is the kind of thing that, while a small win, for people who do the work that I do is not that small, because there’s tons of politics behind it. They’re also having to auto-generate things, so they must have come up with rules that they knew would prevent people from getting hurt.

Now, it sounds like a small, silly esoteric thing, but when you're on the receiving end of harassing imagery, when you're on the receiving end of racialized tropes from media, the fact that you can not abuse somebody even accidentally on Slack using that Giphy command, to me was a huge piece of evidence that the right people are building this product. There's a diverse team of people thinking through their plugins. That, to me, is the kind of thing that, while a small win, for people who do the work that I do is not that small, because there's tons of politics behind it. They're also having to auto-generate things, so they must have come up with rules that they knew would prevent people from getting hurt.

I think I wrote a long Twitter rant about that — not rant; rant is negative — Twitter praise to the Slack engineering team, and whoever else was involved in that, because it was very, very real.

I think I wrote a long Twitter rant about that — not rant; rant is negative — Twitter praise to the Slack engineering team, and whoever else was involved in that, because it was very, very real.

Tim [32:42]: Tim [32:42]:

I feel like there can sometimes be, the pushback that diversity efforts lead to a type of censorship in the general community. I was wondering if you had an answer to that, because while there are plenty of answers, I really just wanted to see what yours was, and if you’ve run into that and how you combat or answer that general idea.

I feel like there can sometimes be, the pushback that diversity efforts lead to a type of censorship in the general community. I was wondering if you had an answer to that, because while there are plenty of answers, I really just wanted to see what yours was, and if you've run into that and how you combat or answer that general idea.

Nicole: Nicole:

Sure. It’s so interesting. The insult in tech for people who care about building an inclusive field is social justice warrior. In a vacuum, think about how awesome that sounds, social justice warrior without the context. To be somebody who really wants to bring about social justice on a technology platform sounds awesome. I think that while that is hurled as an insult, the other insult is You’re shutting me down, you’re censoring me. In the United States, to violate the First Amendment is to basically violate the most fundamental truth of our country.

当然。 It's so interesting. The insult in tech for people who care about building an inclusive field is social justice warrior . In a vacuum, think about how awesome that sounds, social justice warrior without the context. To be somebody who really wants to bring about social justice on a technology platform sounds awesome. I think that while that is hurled as an insult, the other insult is You're shutting me down, you're censoring me. In the United States, to violate the First Amendment is to basically violate the most fundamental truth of our country.

The difference is that harassment is not protected. Hate speech is not protected under the First Amendment. We often say yelling Fire! in a crowded building, not protected. To say on our platform that we control, you can’t go and recruit a bunch of people to gang up on somebody and harass them off our platform is not censorship. It’s us deciding that our desire for a truly inclusive, open-source community trumps your desire to gang up on somebody. Yeah, we’ve made that decision.

The difference is that harassment is not protected. Hate speech is not protected under the First Amendment. We often say yelling Fire! in a crowded building, not protected. To say on our platform that we control, you can't go and recruit a bunch of people to gang up on somebody and harass them off our platform is not censorship. It's us deciding that our desire for a truly inclusive, open-source community trumps your desire to gang up on somebody. Yeah, we've made that decision.

That is not censorship. Censorship is the government saying, You cannot say that anymore. That’s not what happens. We are a private company that says, You can’t say that on our platform. Go somewhere else. You can’t do that on our platform. Go somewhere else. That’s not censorship. You don’t run GitHub. You don’t own GitHub. If you were out in the public square saying, We hate Nicole Sanchez and we think what she’s doing to GitHub is wrong, and you’re going to picket my company in front of my building, you have a right to do that. If the government came and shut you down, that’s censorship and that’s a violation of your First Amendment right. That is different than, Come into my house and harass my children, I will kick you out.

That is not censorship. Censorship is the government saying, You cannot say that anymore. That's not what happens. We are a private company that says, You can't say that on our platform. Go somewhere else. You can't do that on our platform. Go somewhere else. That's not censorship. You don't run GitHub. You don't own GitHub. If you were out in the public square saying, We hate Nicole Sanchez and we think what she's doing to GitHub is wrong, and you're going to picket my company in front of my building, you have a right to do that. If the government came and shut you down, that's censorship and that's a violation of your First Amendment right. That is different than, Come into my house and harass my children, I will kick you out.

It’s a very sophomoric answer to, How dare you not let me be hateful? I’m saying, Be hateful, just go do it on someone else’s platform. Let them deal with you. We’ve got lots of competitors. If they want to have you, have fun. Not in my house, not on my watch, because we have bigger things to accomplish here. That’s what I say about censorship, and I feel the same way about conferences that decide they don’t want people there. You get to control the space and make it what you want.

It's a very sophomoric answer to, How dare you not let me be hateful? I'm saying, Be hateful, just go do it on someone else's platform. Let them deal with you. We've got lots of competitors. If they want to have you, have fun. Not in my house, not on my watch, because we have bigger things to accomplish here. That's what I say about censorship, and I feel the same way about conferences that decide they don't want people there. You get to control the space and make it what you want.

Now, if you go into a public space and you want to say these things and you want to shout from the corner of 2nd and Brannan that you think GitHub is an evil corporation, I will protect that right every day. It will make me uncomfortable and I will still protect it, and I will still defend your right to do that. That’s what I say about that.

Now, if you go into a public space and you want to say these things and you want to shout from the corner of 2nd and Brannan that you think GitHub is an evil corporation, I will protect that right every day. It will make me uncomfortable and I will still protect it, and I will still defend your right to do that. That's what I say about that.

David [36]: David [36]:

It’s a very clear and well-expressed distinction — not one that I think a lot of people have thought through when they have that gut reaction.

It's a very clear and well-expressed distinction — not one that I think a lot of people have thought through when they have that gut reaction.

Nicole: Nicole:

Thank you. I’ve thought a lot about this. I’ve had a lot of arguments about this.

谢谢。 I've thought a lot about this. I've had a lot of arguments about this.

David: 大卫：

It’s very clear, and we really appreciate you’re coming on to the show today and sharing your thoughts and your background on this with us. Because I think there are a lot of people out there who haven’t heard a lot of these arguments before, and they may just be getting the effects and not really understanding the context. I wanted to thank you again for coming on to the show. It’s been really great having you here.

It's very clear, and we really appreciate you're coming on to the show today and sharing your thoughts and your background on this with us. Because I think there are a lot of people out there who haven't heard a lot of these arguments before, and they may just be getting the effects and not really understanding the context. I wanted to thank you again for coming on to the show. It's been really great having you here.

Nicole: Nicole:

I’m so happy. Thank you so much for having me. I really welcome open conversation about this, so however you engage with your listeners, I’d love to be a part of that.

I'm so happy. Thank you so much for having me. I really welcome open conversation about this, so however you engage with your listeners, I'd love to be a part of that.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Definitely.

绝对是

David: 大卫：

Cool. Is there a way people can reach you online?

凉。 Is there a way people can reach you online?

Nicole: Nicole:

Sure. I’m on Twitter @nmsanchez. That’s probably the best way to do it, because I like to have these conversations open and in the public so we can all engage.

当然。 I'm on Twitter @nmsanchez . That's probably the best way to do it, because I like to have these conversations open and in the public so we can all engage.

David: 大卫：

Cool. Thank you very much.

凉。 非常感谢你。

Nicole: Nicole:

Thank you. I really appreciate you guys.

谢谢。 I really appreciate you guys.

[Musical interlude]

[音乐插曲]

Tim: 蒂姆：

I definitely learned a ton during that interview. First off, the study that was mentioned, McKinsey, I’m surprised because I had never seen that, and I feel like I should have seen that somewhere floating around Twitter or going viral in some sort of community, but I hadn’t seen it at all. I want to make sure that it gets in our show notes so our listeners can see that and read that, because it sounds very interesting. I’m definitely going to look at it as soon as I can.

I definitely learned a ton during that interview. First off, the study that was mentioned, McKinsey , I'm surprised because I had never seen that, and I feel like I should have seen that somewhere floating around Twitter or going viral in some sort of community, but I hadn't seen it at all. I want to make sure that it gets in our show notes so our listeners can see that and read that, because it sounds very interesting. I'm definitely going to look at it as soon as I can.

David: 大卫：

Yeah, there’s a lot of information out there like that, and I have a feeling that if we had asked, Nicole could have listed a ton for resources that we could refer people to.

Yeah, there's a lot of information out there like that, and I have a feeling that if we had asked, Nicole could have listed a ton for resources that we could refer people to.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yes, what we should have done. Yes, definitely.

Yes, what we should have done. 当然是。

David: 大卫：

It’s really impressive to see somebody who’s come at this from such a thoughtful background, and given it such consideration and demonstrated the actual practicalities. When she was talking about her own personal experiences and the things that motivated her to look into this issue and start working, and what originally attracted her to tech and what ultimately drew her back to tech, and the fact that she’s willing to put the time and effort into making this happen. It’s very impressive.

It's really impressive to see somebody who's come at this from such a thoughtful background, and given it such consideration and demonstrated the actual practicalities. When she was talking about her own personal experiences and the things that motivated her to look into this issue and start working, and what originally attracted her to tech and what ultimately drew her back to tech, and the fact that she's willing to put the time and effort into making this happen. It's very impressive.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, it was motivating to hear her story, in that she had just an absolutely terrible experience, but she came back and managed to just conquer it and improve things for other people. Not only is it an admirable thing to do, but it’s selfless, really. It would be so easy for so many of us to have a bad experience like that and throw up our hands and say, You know what? I’m done with this industry. I’m going to go do something else. They can burn in the fire that they’re destined for.

Yeah, it was motivating to hear her story, in that she had just an absolutely terrible experience, but she came back and managed to just conquer it and improve things for other people. Not only is it an admirable thing to do, but it's selfless, really. It would be so easy for so many of us to have a bad experience like that and throw up our hands and say, You know what? I'm done with this industry. I'm going to go do something else. They can burn in the fire that they're destined for.

But instead, going back and sludging through that mess again to try and fix things, that’s an incredible effort. You really have to applaud someone who spends all of their time really, fixing something that burned them.

But instead, going back and sludging through that mess again to try and fix things, that's an incredible effort. You really have to applaud someone who spends all of their time really, fixing something that burned them.

David: 大卫：

Mm-hm. You can see that the inspiration of her own father’s story was definitely part of what brought her to that, and it’s really amazing that she ended up bringing that to GitHub. GitHub had been, as she said, up until a year or so ago, there had been some real issues with the diversity inside of that company, and she’s brought it to her own perspective not only of improving the employment issues but also from the user-base issues in GitHub.

Mm-hm. You can see that the inspiration of her own father's story was definitely part of what brought her to that, and it's really amazing that she ended up bringing that to GitHub. GitHub had been, as she said, up until a year or so ago, there had been some real issues with the diversity inside of that company, and she's brought it to her own perspective not only of improving the employment issues but also from the user-base issues in GitHub.

Tim: 蒂姆：

It was really nice to see how analytical Nicole is about all of these different ideas. From those who — I don’t want to say people who are against diversity, because I don’t think anyone thinking intelligently about the subject is going to be against diversity. I would say those who are sometimes confused about how diversity efforts work tend to say that these efforts are more emotionally based than fact and numbers and money based, but the way that Nicole explained all of the things that she does and how they work was such a precise and analytical way.

It was really nice to see how analytical Nicole is about all of these different ideas. From those who — I don't want to say people who are against diversity, because I don't think anyone thinking intelligently about the subject is going to be against diversity. I would say those who are sometimes confused about how diversity efforts work tend to say that these efforts are more emotionally based than fact and numbers and money based, but the way that Nicole explained all of the things that she does and how they work was such a precise and analytical way.

That was definitely interesting to see, and again, like we said, learned a ton especially about how you can literally invest in diversity in your company and watch it pay off over time if done right.

That was definitely interesting to see, and again, like we said, learned a ton especially about how you can literally invest in diversity in your company and watch it pay off over time if done right.

David [39:58]: David [39:58]:

The fact that it does pay off, I think, is something that might impress people. As you brought up, the expense is definitely an issue up front, and as she certainly agreed, it’s not something that’s free. It’s something that needs to be invested and it’s something that does cost money up front. It’s great to see that there are examples of ways focusing on these efforts inside of a company can have a positive impact and will have a positive impact on the bottom line if you look at the studies.

The fact that it does pay off, I think, is something that might impress people. As you brought up, the expense is definitely an issue up front, and as she certainly agreed, it's not something that's free. It's something that needs to be invested and it's something that does cost money up front. It's great to see that there are examples of ways focusing on these efforts inside of a company can have a positive impact and will have a positive impact on the bottom line if you look at the studies.

Tim: 蒂姆：

It’s something that I have noticed personally. And I’m being completely honest here: this isn’t just because we’re doing a show on diversity. If you want to write better software, and just all around general be better at your job, work with someone who is different. That’s it. Start there. That’s happened to me time and time again, and every time, I come out learning something new, learning how to communicate better with people, or just learning to look at software or a piece of code I’m writing from a different lens. It is invaluable the amount of experience you gain from that.

It's something that I have noticed personally. And I'm being completely honest here: this isn't just because we're doing a show on diversity. If you want to write better software, and just all around general be better at your job, work with someone who is different. 而已。 Start there. That's happened to me time and time again, and every time, I come out learning something new, learning how to communicate better with people, or just learning to look at software or a piece of code I'm writing from a different lens. It is invaluable the amount of experience you gain from that.

David: 大卫：

And fortunately, we live in a society where there are opportunities now globally to collaborate with people from all sorts of backgrounds and all sorts of little sets of perspectives and experiences. It’s not just about a bunch of people who share all of their same attributes but they have what they called diversity of thought. It’s actually people from — like, you and I, right now. We’re collaborating far across the country, and we’re working with a company that’s half way around the world for both of us.

And fortunately, we live in a society where there are opportunities now globally to collaborate with people from all sorts of backgrounds and all sorts of little sets of perspectives and experiences. It's not just about a bunch of people who share all of their same attributes but they have what they called diversity of thought. It's actually people from — like, you and I, right now. We're collaborating far across the country, and we're working with a company that's half way around the world for both of us.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah.

是的

David: 大卫：

This opportunity to collaborate in platforms like GitHub where the open-source community really does have a chance to make accessible the ability to work with people who are unlike yourself available. It’s a remarkable opportunity.

This opportunity to collaborate in platforms like GitHub where the open-source community really does have a chance to make accessible the ability to work with people who are unlike yourself available. It's a remarkable opportunity.

Tim: 蒂姆：

I also like that we are able to touch on the fact that it’s interesting, almost a catch-22, hiring for an open-source company diverse people, many of which don’t really get the chance to work on a ton of open-source projects, because open source itself — I mean, for me, I get to work on open-source stuff when I have time. There are plenty of areas wherein people just don’t have time. Either you need to work a second job, or you don’t speak English very well, and all the code we write is written in English, those sorts of issues wherein you really don’t think — or it really becomes a difficult technical challenge: what do you look for when hiring for a diverse pool of engineers when your product is a coding application like GitHub is?

I also like that we are able to touch on the fact that it's interesting, almost a catch-22, hiring for an open-source company diverse people, many of which don't really get the chance to work on a ton of open-source projects, because open source itself — I mean, for me, I get to work on open-source stuff when I have time. There are plenty of areas wherein people just don't have time. Either you need to work a second job, or you don't speak English very well, and all the code we write is written in English, those sorts of issues wherein you really don't think — or it really becomes a difficult technical challenge: what do you look for when hiring for a diverse pool of engineers when your product is a coding application like GitHub is?

David: 大卫：

It’s true, and you can’t rely on those arguably objective markers, because they’re not actually objectives. They have culture embedded in them, and even the notion that anybody can contribute to an open-source project, as Nicole was talking about, there are issues where people are bullied out of open-source projects by people who see them as other or who might want, for whatever reasons, for whatever their backgrounds lead them to. It’s easy to forget that that’s happening when you come from a background of privilege where you don’t see that happen to you personally.

It's true, and you can't rely on those arguably objective markers, because they're not actually objectives. They have culture embedded in them, and even the notion that anybody can contribute to an open-source project, as Nicole was talking about, there are issues where people are bullied out of open-source projects by people who see them as other or who might want, for whatever reasons, for whatever their backgrounds lead them to. It's easy to forget that that's happening when you come from a background of privilege where you don't see that happen to you personally.

Tim: 蒂姆：

I think in every career path, there comes a time when you realize it’s more than just getting better at the technical skill. I think one of the things that has helped me most in this career field is patience and empathy, and the more you focus on those two qualities, the other ones definitely catch up, definitely, but the better off you are.

I think in every career path, there comes a time when you realize it's more than just getting better at the technical skill. I think one of the things that has helped me most in this career field is patience and empathy, and the more you focus on those two qualities, the other ones definitely catch up, definitely, but the better off you are.

David: 大卫：

I think a lot of our evolution as engineers really does come down to these communication skills that you’re talking about, because, ultimately, any form of engineering unless you are completely working independently of anybody else and you don’t care if anybody ever uses your product but you personally. Ultimately, it all comes down to diversity issues, because you want to work with other people who can bring their talents and their skills regardless of what background they bring and you want a customer base that has a diverse background, because not everybody who’s going to use your product is going to look and sound and talk and act exactly like you.

I think a lot of our evolution as engineers really does come down to these communication skills that you're talking about, because, ultimately, any form of engineering unless you are completely working independently of anybody else and you don't care if anybody ever uses your product but you personally. Ultimately, it all comes down to diversity issues, because you want to work with other people who can bring their talents and their skills regardless of what background they bring and you want a customer base that has a diverse background, because not everybody who's going to use your product is going to look and sound and talk and act exactly like you.

These communication issues are absolutely at the core of all the things that we’re working on. It’s wonderful to be reminded of that and to see these efforts really paying off.

These communication issues are absolutely at the core of all the things that we're working on. It's wonderful to be reminded of that and to see these efforts really paying off.

Tim [44:05]: Tim [44:05]:

Yeah, I think what I’ve learned most from this episode is really that diversity makes the world turn, and if you want to just get better as technical skill or as just a human being, it’s something that will benefit you to focus on, and it will benefit others, and that’s an excellent thing.

Yeah, I think what I've learned most from this episode is really that diversity makes the world turn, and if you want to just get better as technical skill or as just a human being, it's something that will benefit you to focus on, and it will benefit others, and that's an excellent thing.

David: 大卫：

Well, one thing I’m going to take away from this is that I’m going to go play on Slack with Giphy now, and see just how well curated those things are. I’ll have to do it in a private room, because it’s going to be politically incorrect for a little while, but I have to find out now.

Well, one thing I'm going to take away from this is that I'm going to go play on Slack with Giphy now, and see just how well curated those things are. I'll have to do it in a private room, because it's going to be politically incorrect for a little while, but I have to find out now.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, you can message yourself. That’s how I tested it. Good luck, and make sure there’s no screen recording software on … and I’m just going to leave it at that!

Yeah, you can message yourself. That's how I tested it. Good luck, and make sure there's no screen recording software on … and I'm just going to leave it at that!

David: 大卫：

Good advice, good advice. I’m glad we had a chance to talk with Nicole today, because she’s really inspiring, and it makes me feel better about using GitHub for projects.

Good advice, good advice. I'm glad we had a chance to talk with Nicole today, because she's really inspiring, and it makes me feel better about using GitHub for projects.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, definitely — especially with the story she shared with the 16-year-old. They definitely went above and beyond, and it’s really nice to see something like that happen in this community.

Yeah, definitely — especially with the story she shared with the 16-year-old. They definitely went above and beyond, and it's really nice to see something like that happen in this community.

David: 大卫：

Absolutely.

绝对。

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Tim: 蒂姆：

Well, thank you so much for listening, everybody. We always enjoy getting talk technology with all of you.

好，非常感谢大家的倾听。 We always enjoy getting talk technology with all of you.

David: 大卫：

We’d also like to thank SitePoint.com, and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat, with production help from Ralph Mason. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @versioningshow — and give us a rating on iTunes and let us know how we’re doing.

We'd also like to thank SitePoint.com , and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat, with production help from Ralph Mason. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @versioningshow — and give us a rating on iTunes and let us know how we're doing.

Tim: 蒂姆：

We’ll see you next time, and we hope you enjoyed this version.

下次见，我们希望您喜欢这个版本。

翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/versioning-show-episode-14-with-nicole-sanchez/