Episode 148 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week the panel is made up of Louis Simoneau (@rssaddict), Kevin Dees (@kevindees), Stephan Segraves (@ssegraves) and Patrick O’Keefe (@ifroggy).
SitePoint Podcast的第148集现已发布！ 本周的座谈会由Louis Simoneau( @rssaddict )，Kevin Dees( @kevindees )，Stephan Segraves( @ssegraves )和Patrick O'Keefe( @ifroggy )组成。
下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)
You can download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:
您可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：
SitePoint Podcast #148: All Aboard the Facebook Train(MP3, 50:21, 48.4MB)SitePoint Podcast＃148：全部登上Facebook火车(MP3，50:21，48.4MB)
剧集摘要 (Episode Summary)
Here are the main topics covered in this episode:
以下是本集中介绍的主要主题：
Curebit Apologizes for Copying 37Signals: “Stupid, Lazy, and Disrespectful” | TechCrunch
Riding Rails: Rails 3.2.0: Faster dev mode and routing, explain queries, tagged logger, store
Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/148.
浏览http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/148中显示的参考链接的完整列表。
主持人聚光灯 (Host Spotlights)
Patrick: WP Late Night – The Podcast for WordPress Users.
帕特里克： WP深夜– WordPress用户的播客。
Stephan: Convert Bookmarklet to Chrome Extension
斯蒂芬： 将书签转换为Chrome扩展程序
Louis: Making Love to WebKit — Acko.net
路易斯： 爱上WebKit — Acko.net
面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)
Louis: Hello and welcome to another episode of the SitePoint Podcast. We’ve got a full panel today for the show, Patrick, Stephan and Kevin are all on the line with me, except for one slight difference, we only have two actual phone calls going on because Kevin and Patrick are cuddling (laughter).
路易斯：您好，欢迎收看SitePoint播客的另一集。 今天我们为演出做了一个完整的小组，Patrick，Stephan和Kevin都和我在一起，只是有一点区别，我们只打了两个电话，因为Kevin和Patrick在拥抱(笑声)。
Patrick: That’s right, getting up close and personal here in Apartment of Kevin Dees.
帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，在凯文·迪斯(Apartment of Kevin Dees)的公寓里亲密接触。
Kevin: I wouldn’t call it cuddling; if I need to grab a pillow and put it here between us, I can do that.
凯文：我不会这么拥抱。 如果我需要抓住枕头并将其放在我们之间，可以这样做。
Patrick: We’re not really touching, we’re just sitting on a couch podcasting, don’t read anything into that (laughter and train sound).
帕特里克：我们并没有真正动人，我们只是坐在沙发上播客，什么也没读(笑声和火车声)。
Kevin: And, hey, there goes the train (laughter).
凯文：而且，嘿，火车开了(笑)。
Patrick: I’m actually here in person to experience the old 7:15 from Albuquerque.
帕特里克：我实际上是亲自来阿尔伯克基体验7:15的经历。
Kevin: That’s right. Is it the 7:15, everyday at 7:15?
凯文：是的。 是每天7:15的7:15吗？
Patrick: I don’t know, but there it is. Oh, boy.
帕特里克：我不知道，但是确实如此。 好家伙。
Louis: Awesome (laughter and train sound). That sounds even louder than usual.
路易斯：很棒(笑声和火车声)。 这听起来比平时更大。
Stephan: That’s really loud.
史蒂芬：真的很大声。
Louis: Alright.
路易斯：好吧。
Kevin: Welcome to Orlando.
凯文：欢迎来到奥兰多。
Patrick: Kevin is in downtown Orlando.
帕特里克：凯文在奥兰多市中心。
Louis: Alright, cool. There have been as usual some developments in the Web world of late; who wants to go first with a story?
路易斯：好，很酷。 最近，网络世界出现了一些发展。 谁想先讲一个故事？
Kevin: Alright, so I have a very controversial story involving 37signals who happens to be also redesigning their main product, Basecamp, which we can’t actually get into today, but today’s subject is the copying of 37signals Highrise application. So a company called Curebit, I guess this is how you would pronounce it, it’s C-u-r-e-bit if you go to their website, I found this article on TechCrunch and basically this company has gone in, and in some cases a designer will go in and find inspiration from a design or they’ll look at some code and take a snippet away, well, this company went in and took everything, images, everything, CSS style sheets, HTML, and 37signals found out about this because they even left like the long destination links inside of what they copied, so 37signals was having files downloaded from like this Curebit’s website. So, basically 37signals comes out and calls them out on it and now it’s on TechCrunch, and so I thought this would be an interesting story to examine, not only from what’s going on here with 37signals, but also to get maybe your opinion on how you feel about inspiration versus copying when it comes to web assets, web designs, and also programming languages, and maybe even content for that matter, like how much can you copy from somebody else, if, sighting, that kind of thing. I’m sure it’s been covered before, but I think it’s always good to circle back around to these kinds of things when something like this happens in the news.
凯文：好的，所以我有一个涉及37signals的非常有争议的故事，他恰巧也在重新设计他们的主要产品Basecamp，我们今天实际上还不能进入，但是今天的主题是复制37signals Highrise应用程序。 因此，一家名为Curebit的公司，我想这是您的发音，如果您访问他们的网站，它就是Cure-bit，我在TechCrunch上找到了这篇文章，基本上这家公司已经开业了，在某些情况下，设计师会加入并从设计中寻找灵感，或者他们会看一些代码并摘录一小段，好，这家公司加入了，发现了所有东西，图像，所有东西，CSS样式表，HTML和37signals，因为他们甚至离开了就像他们复制的内容中的长目标链接一样，因此37signals的文件是从Curebit网站下载的。 因此，基本上37signals出来了，并把它们召唤出来，现在在TechCrunch上，所以我认为这是一个有趣的故事，不仅可以从37signals的现状中进行考察，而且还可以征求您的意见。当涉及到Web资产，Web设计以及编程语言，甚至是内容时，您会感到灵感与复制，甚至是内容，例如，如果发现这种东西，您可以从他人那里复制多少。 我敢肯定它已经被报道过了，但是当新闻中发生这样的事情时，回想这些事情总是很有益的。
Louis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean design is one of those things that’s tricky, and if it had just been sort of it kind of looks the same, it would have been a lot harder to demonize them as clearly because there’s a lot of that on the Internet, right, anything you look at will draw some inspiration from either Facebook comments or overall look and feel of some of the 37signals stuff; obviously Apple’s design has had a huge influence on the way a lot of web pages look; people were doing those sort of Apple-like reflections and shadows on all their sites for a long time, and I don’t think anyone got all too upset about that, I think that’s a pretty normal process for design, people follow trends, right. And 37signals especially, right, they had a big impact on the way a lot of people did this kind of web application because first of all Ruby on Rails came out of 37signals, so a lot of Rails designers, or Rails developers, sort of looked to 37signals for design cues, and they also made some really, really nice, simple, easy-to-use applications. And that’s another thing to remember here is that 37signals from a design standpoint there’s not a lot of flash there, right, there’s not a lot of colors or textures; it’s not super obvious that you’d be copying it because a lot of times it’s just sort of text on a page laid out in a certain way, right.
路易斯：是的，绝对。 我的意思是说设计是一件棘手的事情，如果只是看起来有点一样，那么清晰地将它们妖魔化就困难得多，因为互联网上有很多东西，对，您所看到的任何内容都将从Facebook评论或37signals中某些内容的整体外观和风格中获得启发。 显然，苹果的设计对许多网页的外观产生了巨大的影响。 人们很长时间以来一直在所有站点上进行类似苹果的反射和阴影，我认为没有人会为此而烦恼，我认为这是一个非常正常的设计过程，人们会遵循趋势，对。 特别是37signals，对，它们对许多人执行此类Web应用程序的方式产生了重大影响，因为首先Ruby on Rails出自37signals，所以许多Rails设计师(即Rails开发人员)看上去37signals提供了设计线索，它们还制作了一些非常非常好用，简单易用的应用程序。 这是要记住的另一件事是，从设计的角度来看，37signals那里没有很多闪光，是的，没有很多颜色或纹理。 并不是很明显您要复制它，因为很多时候它只是某种形式的页面上的文本，对。
Kevin: Right. Exactly.
凯文：对。 究竟。
Louis: So that’s one thing. So design is one thing, and I think that’s probably I wouldn’t have even noticed this story if it had just been design. Copying bits of HTML and CSS, now there’s another thing, right, so I don’t know about you guys, but people who have been on the Web for a long time it happens pretty frequently that I think especially in the early days of CSS and JavaScript where you’d see a cool page with a cool effect and be like oh how did they do that, you know, you flip open the view source, you look at the CSS and you might take a little snippet and use the same effect on your own site, right, I don’t think that’s weird. Obviously when you make a web page all the code is out there in public sort of by definition, and that’s the nature of the Web and I think it’s one of the things that makes it really easy for new designers to get into the game is to be able to look at how things are done behind the scenes, right. Obviously when you get into hotlinking images or wholesale copy pasting of huge chunks of CSS which includes like, you know, logos that people have made and little icons that people have made, and those are actually hotlinked because you haven’t even bothered to create your own images and go through the CSS, you’re not doing work, you’re just stealing. So in this case it’s cut and dried, but I think in this you really have to go this far for me to get upset about it personally.
路易斯：那是一回事。 所以设计是一回事，如果只是设计，我想我可能根本不会注意到这个故事。 复制HTML和CSS的位，现在还有另一件事，对，所以我不了解你们，但是那些已经在Web上很长时间的人经常发生这种情况，我认为尤其是在CSS的早期和JavaScript，您会看到一个带有效果的很酷的页面，就像哦，他们是怎么做到的，您知道，您打开了视图源，查看了CSS，可能会使用一些代码片段并使用相同的代码对您自己的网站的影响，对，我认为这并不奇怪。 显然，当您制作一个网页时，按照定义，所有代码都是公开的，这就是网络的本质，我认为这是使新设计师真正容易进入游戏的一件事是：能够看看幕后的事情是对的。 显然，当您进入热链接图像或大量复制粘贴大量CSS时，其中包括人们制作的徽标和人们制作的小图标，而这些实际上是热链接的，因为您甚至都不想创建您自己的图像并通过CSS，您没有做任何工作，只是在偷东西。 因此，在这种情况下，将其切碎并晾干，但是我认为在这种情况下，您真的必须走得这么远，以使我个人对此不满意。
Stephan: Was the point of them copying it to make money? I mean are they trying to create the app to compete with 37signals, or what were they doing? because I’m reading the article and it doesn’t actually say
斯蒂芬：他们的目的是复制它来赚钱吗？ 我的意思是，他们是在尝试创建与37signals竞争的应用程序，还是在做什么？ 因为我正在阅读文章，但实际上并没有说
Louis: Well, at the top of the article it says that Curebit just got a 1.2 million dollar round of funding, so they’re clearly a commercial enterprise. As to what their product actually is — a social referral platform, “Get your customers to refer their friends.”
路易斯：嗯，在文章的开头，它说Curebit刚刚获得了120万美元的融资，因此它们显然是一家商业企业。 关于他们的产品实际是什么—社交推荐平台，“让您的客户推荐他们的朋友。”
Stephan: So basically they stole the design to use for something else.
斯蒂芬：所以基本上，他们偷了设计以用于其他用途。
Louis: Yeah.
路易斯：是的。
Stephan: Yeah, okay.
斯蒂芬：是的，好的。
Patrick: Moreorless. I mean they copied, pasted code, they made some adjustments, they changed a logo, but of course the damning stuff is the stuff that’s easily attributable like images that are left in the code that are hotlinked to the 37signals servers.
帕特里克：莫雷尔。 我的意思是，他们复制，粘贴了代码，进行了一些调整，更改了徽标，但是该死的东西是很容易归因的东西，例如保留在代码中的图像会被热链接到37signals服务器。
Kevin: Correct, yeah.
凯文：是的，是的。
Stephan: Yeah.
斯蒂芬：是的。
Kevin: Wow.
凯文：哇。
Louis: Right. If there ever was a smoking gun (laughter).
路易斯：对。 如果有吸烟枪(笑声)。
Patrick: It’s like their domain name is still in the code (laughter). Not even a ‘replace all’ was achieved here.
帕特里克：好像他们的域名仍在代码中(笑声)。 在这里甚至没有实现“全部替换”。
Kevin: Do you feel like this might have been a publicity stunt, Patrick, like maybe they were trying to get some bad press? In a circumstance like this where it’s like you’re a company and you make a product, you’re not dumb, you’re not stupid, you know what I mean, you know what you’re doing is wrong if you do this. Could this perhaps been seen as a way to — 37signals is no small company, so in a way if you tick them off they’re gonna talk about it, other people are gonna talk about it, and you’re going to get — like I never even heard of Curebit before until this happened.
凯文：你觉得这可能是个宣传st头吗，帕特里克，也许他们想引起一些负面新闻？ 在这样的情况下，就像您是一家公司并制造产品一样，您不傻，不傻，您知道我的意思，您知道自己在做什么是错误的。 。 也许这可以看作是通往37signals的小公司的方式，所以从某种意义上讲，如果您将它们打勾，他们就会谈论它，其他人也会谈论它，而您将得到-在发生这种情况之前，我什至从未听说过Curebit。
Patrick: You know that’s a good point, I had never heard of them either, and, you know, the way Louis’ talking I don’t think he had heard of them either, so he doesn’t know what they do, and I still don’t know. You know, yet I could see that, I mean people do that; now me personally I would never do that, I think that’s a very stupid strategy, I think that getting known and being known favorably or known infamously are two very different things, and obviously Curebit has a bit of a negative that they have to come back from to have a successful business, because they’re a young company, and things like this can kill young companies I think, a lot of bad publicity. So, not to say that they’re done with, not to say they’re over with, that’s fine, but you know that they did this just speaks poorly of them and speaks poorly of the people who made the decision to do it. And you know you say that you know it’s wrong, I mean the tough thing is that a lot of people probably don’t think this is wrong; hotlinking is something I’ve disliked for a long, long, long, long time, and it’s something that I work to prevent on my communities in the spaces I manage, but a lot of people don’t understand that. I mean the reality is that most people who don’t understand it tend to be non-techie people. The scary thing here is that it was in the code for a service that is run by techie people, and I’m sure it was left in accidentally, but that they didn’t take care of those details, uh, speaks to their, I don’t know, lack of techie-ness, their lack of attention to detail that they didn’t clean it up enough to remove those traces. But I think they’ve certainly paid a penalty, I’m not above accepting an apology and moving on, obviously they responded to it poorly at first and didn’t take it seriously enough, but to fix it, to come out and apologize, I think they can come back from that, but it doesn’t change the fact that they have some work to do to salvage their reputation in this kind of techie space.
帕特里克：您知道这是个好主意，我也从未听说过它们，而且您知道，路易的讲话方式我也不认为他也听说过它们，所以他也不知道他们在做什么，并且我还是不知道 您知道，但我能看到，我的意思是人们这样做了。 现在我个人我永远不会那样做，我认为这是一个非常愚蠢的策略，我认为获得知名度和被人宠爱或臭名昭著是两件截然不同的事情，而且显然Curebit对他们必须回来感到有些消极从生意成功到成功，因为它们是一家年轻的公司，而这样的事情可能会杀死年轻的公司，这在很多方面都是不好的宣传。 所以，不是说他们已经完成了，不是说他们已经结束了，这很好，但是您知道他们这样做只是对他们的评价很差，而对做出决定的人的评价也很差。 而且您知道您说自己知道这是错误的，我的意思是，困难的是，许多人可能并不认为这是错误的。 很长时间以来，我一直不喜欢热链接，这是我努力防止在我管理的空间中的社区中发生的事情，但是很多人对此并不了解。 我的意思是现实是，大多数不了解它的人往往是非技术人员。 这里最可怕的是，它是由技术人员运行的服务的代码中的，我敢肯定它是无意中遗留下来的，但是他们没有理会这些细节，呃，对他们说，我不知道，缺乏技术，缺乏对细节的关注，他们没有足够地清理它们以消除这些痕迹。 但是我认为他们确实已经付出了一定的代价，我没有接受道歉并继续前进，显然他们起初对此React不佳，也没有足够认真地对待它，但是要解决它，出来道歉。 ，我认为他们可以从中得到回报，但这并不能改变他们在这种技术领域中要挽回声誉的工作。
Kevin: Yeah, I don’t know what I think about it personally, I mean I feel like it’s a little bit of publicity stunt just because anybody in our space knows that you just don’t copy code, I mean you just don’t copy things.
凯文：是的，我个人不知道我的想法，我的意思是我觉得这有点宣传st头，因为我们这个领域的任何人都知道你只是不复制代码，我只是说你不知道。复制东西。
Patrick: You speak very well of our space.
帕特里克：您对我们的空间说得很好。
Louis: Yeah, I don’t know if that’s as true as you think it is because this stuff seems to just happen non-stop, I mean we’ll all remember this was several years ago now, but there was a famous instance of hotlinking images and pranking when I think the John McCain website had hotlinked images that were on servers controlled by Mike Davidson, do you guys remember this story?
路易斯：是的，我不知道这是否如您想的那样正确，因为这些东西似乎是不停地发生的，我的意思是我们都记得这是几年前的事了，但是有一个著名的例子当我认为John McCain网站上的热链接图像位于由Mike Davidson控制的服务器上时，您会记得这个故事吗？
Stephan: Yeah, and then he replaced the hotlinked image.
斯蒂芬：是的，然后他替换了热链接的图像。
Patrick: I don’t remember it.
帕特里克：我不记得了。
Louis: Yeah, so obviously the thing is if someone else is serving images from your servers if you just put any other image there with the same filename and have your servers updated so that your code is using a different filename, you can put any image on their website, right. And in this particular instance a few years ago the images used were distasteful to say the least, and that drew a lot of attention to the idea that, ooh, you know, not only is hotlinking unethical but it’s also really dangerous, right.
路易斯：是的，很明显，如果其他人正在从您的服务器提供图像，只要您在其中放置其他具有相同文件名的图像并更新服务器，以便代码使用不同的文件名，就可以放置任何图像在他们的网站上，对。 几年前在这种特殊情况下，使用的图像至少可以说令人反感，这引起了人们的广泛关注，哦，你知道，不仅热链接不道德，而且还很危险，对。
Patrick: Right.
帕特里克：对。
Louis: Because it gives someone else the ability to arbitrarily display whatever images they want on your website, and personally if I had been in David Heinemeier Hansson’s shoes at 37signals and then discovered this hotlink, my first thought would not have been, oh, I’m gonna call these guys out on Twitter, my first thought is, hmm, what can I show on their website.
路易斯：因为它使其他人可以在您的网站上随意显示他们想要的图像，并且就我个人而言，如果我曾经在37signals的David Heinemeier Hansson的鞋子中，然后发现了此热链接，我的第一个想法就是不会，哦，我我要在Twitter上叫这些家伙，我首先想到的是，我可以在他们的网站上显示什么。
Patrick: Right, right.
帕特里克：对，对。
Stephan: I think I’m a little overly sensitive to this, and Patrick will understand why. I recently had an image taken from me, my own intellectual property being used as someone else’s on another website, a fairly large website that makes a decent amount of money and is a big deal here in the state of Texas. And when I called them out on Twitter and then email, the response I received was we don’t really care, it’s not a bad thing to steal; they didn’t even use the word ‘steal’, to ‘borrow your image and use it on our website’. So, I don’t know, I think we’ve just gotten complacent, or other people have gotten complacent, and people are so passive about it now that it’s so easy to Google something and do a search and then save that image and then put it on your own website that people are becoming used to it where it’s no longer a big thing for people to steal. I mean I just don’t understand that I guess, how people can say I’ve done this work — like I don’t understand how people can say I’ve done this work and they put it out there and then someone else takes it and they’re like, oh, that looks cool, we’re just gonna use that ‘cause that’s useful to us, like how lazy are you?
斯蒂芬：我想我对此有点过于敏感，帕特里克会明白为什么。 我最近从我身上拍了张照片，我的知识产权被他人用作另一个网站，这是一个相当大的网站，赚钱可观，在德克萨斯州很重要。 当我在Twitter上给他们打电话，然后通过电子邮件发来邮件时，我收到的回复是我们并不在乎，偷窃也不是一件坏事。 他们甚至没有使用“窃取”一词来“借用您的图片并在我们的网站上使用它”。 所以，我不知道，我认为我们已经沾沾自喜了，或者其他人变得沾沾自喜了，人们对此感到非常被动，以至于Google进行搜索和搜索然后保存该图像然后将其放在您自己的网站上，人们会逐渐习惯它，对于人们而言，这已不再是一件大事。 我的意思是我只是不明白我猜，人们怎么说我已经完成了这项工作–就像我不理解人们怎么说我已经完成了这项工作，然后把它们放在那里，然后其他人拿走了它就像，哦，看起来很酷，我们只是要使用这个原因，因为这对我们很有用，就像您有多懒？
Patrick: Right. And you know in your case, so it was a publication that is pretty good size publication, gets good traffic, has paid staff, you know, this is a real operation, this isn’t some random kid in high school or some once off blog, this is a serious publication. And they just randomly took a photo from the Web that was related to their story and put it in the story, and it’s more common than you’d think I guess, and Paul Carr over at PandoDaily made an interesting point about this particular story. Basically he said that copyright theft is bad when it happens to people that we like, especially in the tech space; in this case you had 37signals and Mr. Hansson going at Curebit, and in a case that — I’m with him, I don’t fault him at all, I’m totally with him on this, and I’m not totally with anyone who is saying it’s inappropriate for Curebit to do this. But the point that Carr makes is that the tech space, obviously it’s a diversified space, lots of people, the space doesn’t feel one particular way, there’s a lot of people in it, but a lot of folks in this space don’t necessarily care all that much about copyright or intellectual property unless it happens to them or it happens to someone that they like. So you have things in Hollywood and what happens to content and things produced by Hollywood, for example, or for any number of industries that maybe they wouldn’t care about, a lot of people in this space wouldn’t care about, but when it’s 37signals and it’s a beloved company that’s in this space we all care about, then it’s a big deal and it’s off with their head and they shouldn’t be forgiven, and on and on. So, I think with some people there’s a double standard in this area with the tech scene where if copyright is enforced in some areas it limits innovation, but if it’s the tech space and a company we like then, oh my gosh, we need to go after those people.
帕特里克：对。 而且您知道您的情况，所以这是一家出版物，相当不错，出版量大，人流高，有薪工作人员，您知道，这是一项真正的业务，这不是高中生的孩子，也不是一次休假的孩子。博客，这是一个严肃的出版物。 他们只是从网络上随机拍了一张与他们的故事有关的照片，并将其放入故事中，而且它比您想像的要普遍得多，PandoDaily的Paul Carr对此故事提出了有趣的观点。 基本上，他说，如果盗窃发生在我们喜欢的人身上，尤其是在科技领域，那是不好的。 在这种情况下，您有37个信号，而汉森先生在Curebit任职，在这种情况下-我和他在一起，我一点都不责备他，我完全同意他的意见，而我也不完全是与任何人说Curebit这样做是不合适的。 但是Carr提出的要点是，高科技空间，显然是一个多元化的空间，很多人，这个空间并没有一种特殊的感觉，里面有很多人，但是这个空间中的很多人都没有。除非版权或知识产权发生在他们身上或发生在他们喜欢的人身上，否则它一定会非常在乎版权或知识产权。 因此，您在好莱坞拥有事物，例如好莱坞产生的内容和事物发生了什么变化，或者对于他们可能不关心的许多行业，这个领域的很多人都不会关心，但是当这是37signals，这是一家深受大家喜爱的公司，我们都在这个领域中，然后这是一个大问题，而且他们的想法不对，他们不应该被原谅。 因此，我认为在某些领域，技术领域存在双重标准，如果在某些领域实施版权会限制创新，但是如果这是技术领域和我们喜欢的公司，那么我的天哪，我们需要追随那些人。
Louis: Yeah, I mean without wanting to get into too much of a debate, because I know from experience reading Patrick’s thoughts on Twitter and Facebook and Google+ that we don’t exactly have the same viewpoint on this. I feel that it’s probably not just the issue of it being the tech community and people we like, I think there’s definitely an issue of — and like Stephan was saying when his image was used, this is a serious publication, right, this is a business, and if you’re a business you can make your own stuff and sell your stuff, and I think there’s a difference or a line to draw, I think Stephan, I mean correct me if I’m wrong, but if the same image had been used on some kid’s blog that wasn’t trying to make any money and was just trying to make a goofy point or if there had been some stupid caption on it, or whatever, you might have been a little bit less incensed, right?
路易斯：是的，我的意思是不想参与过多的辩论，因为我从在Twitter，Facebook和Google+上阅读Patrick的想法的经验中知道，我们对此并不完全相同。 我觉得这可能不仅仅是技术社区和我们喜欢的人的问题，我认为肯定有一个问题，就像斯蒂芬(Stephan)所说的那样，当使用他的图像时，这是一个严肃的出版物，对，这是一个商业，如果您是一家企业，则可以自己制作商品并出售自己的商品，我认为这是有区别的，或者是可以划清界限的，我想是斯蒂芬，我的意思是纠正我，如果我错了，但是如果相同图片曾在某个孩子的博客上使用过，该博客并没有试图赚钱，只是在试图愚蠢，或者如果上面有一些愚蠢的标题，或者类似的东西，您可能不那么被激怒了，对？
Stephan: More than likely, yeah. I think had it been someone, you know, I may have sent them an email saying, hey, you know you’re using my image, you mind at least linking to me or something. If it wasn’t a business, if it wasn’t someone who was making money on, and had ads and things on their page where my picture was being posted, then yeah I don’t think I would have had as big of a problem with it, but it still would have been a problem.
斯蒂芬：很有可能，是的。 我想是有人，你知道，我可能已经给他们发送了一封电子邮件，说，嘿，你知道你在使用我的图片，你至少要链接到我或其他东西。 如果这不是一家企业，如果不是一个赚钱的人，并且在他们的页面上张贴了我的图片的广告和东西，那么是的，我认为我不会拥有这么大的问题，但它仍然是一个问题。
Louis: Yeah. Anyway, so that’s kind of where I fall in this case, because they’re a business and because they’re clearly you know they have developers in-house, I mean it’s not outside of the realm of their abilities to just do the work and get the stuff done, and to be so lazy and disrespectful obviously is just stupid. Unless as Kevin said it’s a publicity stunt, in which case it’s despicable.
路易斯：是的。 无论如何，在这种情况下，这就是我的处境，因为他们是一家公司，并且因为显然您知道他们拥有内部开发人员，所以我的意思是仅仅从事这项工作并不超出他们的能力范围并且把事情做好，变得懒惰和不尊重显然是愚蠢的。 除非像凯文所说的那样，这是一个宣传st头，在这种情况下这是卑鄙的。
Kevin: (Laughs) it’s true though, is it not true?
凯文：(笑)是真的，不是吗？
Louis: It’s either lazy and stupid or unbelievably evil (laughter).
路易斯：要么是懒惰而愚蠢，要么是令人难以置信的邪恶(笑声)。
Kevin: It’s like going and shooting somebody in the kneecap just to get on the news, right.
凯文：这就像是为了知道新闻而朝膝盖处开枪。
Stephan: Yeah, that’s —
斯蒂芬：是的-
Kevin: Maybe not.
凯文：也许不是。
Louis: I guess it’s exactly like that.
路易斯：我猜就是那样。
Patrick: Yeah, I mean just to frame I guess what I was trying to say was actually Jonathan Bailey at Plagiarism Today made an interesting point where he said, “For the first time in history almost everyone is both a massive consumer and a massive producer of copyrighted work, so everyone now lives on both sides of the imaginary fence. We’ve seen both the power of file sharing and the frustration of having our posts scraped by some Russian spammer,” so all of us are kind of copyright craters and also consumers, so when we talk about the issue it really affects all of us in both ways, not just as consumers but also as programmers or creators of content ourselves, so it’s interesting to frame the discussion in that way and always understand that.
帕特里克：是的，我的意思是说我想说的实际上是Pla窃的乔纳森·贝利(Jonathan Bailey)今天提出了一个有趣的观点，他说：“历史上，几乎每个人都首次既是庞大的消费者又是庞大的生产者版权作品，因此每个人现在都生活在假想的篱笆的两侧。 我们既看到了文件共享的强大功能，也看到了被一些俄罗斯垃圾邮件发送者抓取帖子的挫败感。”所以我们所有人都是版权主义者，也是消费者，所以当我们谈论这个问题时，它确实影响到我们所有人不仅以消费者的身份，而且以自己的身份作为内容的程序员或创造者，都以两种方式进行讨论，因此以这种方式进行讨论并始终了解这一点很有趣。
Kevin: Yep.
凯文：是的 。
Louis: Indeed.
路易斯：的确如此。
Kevin: I think we’ve beat this one down.
凯文：我认为我们已经击败了这个。
Patrick: And I’ll be copying Louis’ articles and posting them on my blog, I’m sure he won’t give a damn.
帕特里克(Patrick)：我将复制路易(Louis)的文章并将其张贴在我的博客上，我敢肯定他不会给他该死的。
Louis: We can keep beating this horse.
路易斯：我们可以继续击败这匹马。
Kevin: Yes, we can (laughter). Should we drown it next?
凯文：是的，我们可以(笑)。 接下来我们应该淹死吗？
Louis: (Laughs)
路易斯：(笑)
Patrick: Nay (horse sound)
帕特里克：不(马声)
Louis: Awesome. Cool. Let’s do it. I actually have a story that’s somewhat related, albeit indirectly. This happened about 10 days ago as we record, so it’ll be about two weeks when this is published, but on the Ruby on Rails blog, Rails 3.2.0 was released, and obviously the relationship there is that the lead Dev on Rails is David Heinemeier Hansson who was involved in this controversy with Curebit. So, anyone who’s into Rails have a look, there’s some cool stuff in 3.2, and one of the most notable things is they’ve done some big performance improvements in developer mode, so when you’re working on your own site in development which used to be a little slow because it had to try and reload all of your files, it wasn’t caching anything, now it’s being a bit cleverer about caching, and the routing is also much, much faster. So if you have a lot of links on one page, whereas before trying to figure out where all those links should point to would be something the Rails engine would struggle with a little bit, that’s been made a lot faster. And there’s a lot of other cool things as well, so check out the blog post and hop onto Rails 3.2 if you’ve got a project in development.
路易斯：太好了。 凉。 我们开始做吧。 实际上，我的故事虽然有些间接，但却有些相关。 据我们记录，这大约是在10天前发生的，所以大约要花两周的时间，但是在Ruby on Rails博客上，Rails 3.2.0已发布，显然关系是领先的Dev on Rails是大卫·海涅迈尔·汉森(David Heinemeier Hansson)，他与Curebit一起参与了这场争议。 因此，任何使用Rails的人都可以看到，3.2中有一些很酷的东西，最值得注意的事情之一是他们在开发人员模式下进行了一些重大的性能改进，因此当您在自己的开发站点中工作时，过去有点慢，因为它不得不尝试重新加载所有文件，它没有缓存任何东西，现在缓存有点聪明，并且路由也快得多。 因此，如果您在一页上有很多链接，而在试图弄清所有这些链接应指向的位置之前，Rails引擎会遇到一点麻烦，那么这样做的速度会大大提高。 还有很多其他很酷的东西，所以如果您有一个开发中的项目，请查看博客文章并跳到Rails 3.2。
Stephan: Are you a Rails developer, Louis?
史蒂芬：路易斯，您是Rails开发人员吗？
Louis: I am sort of, yeah, so at Flippa we’re in the process of sort of migrating our application from a sort of custom PHP framework over to Rails, so about half the work I do on a day-to-day basis is Rails; for every new feature we’ll develop in Rails, and the old stuff gradually moving across.
路易斯：是的，是的，所以在Flippa，我们正在将应用程序从某种定制PHP框架迁移到Rails，因此我每天进行的工作大约有一半是Rails； 对于我们将在Rails中开发的每一项新功能，旧的功能逐渐发展起来。
Stephan: Oh, cool. Okay, because I haven’t jumped into it yet, so I’ve seen it and I know a lot of people use it, I just — I never have.
斯蒂芬：哦，太酷了。 好的，因为我还没有跳进去，所以我已经看过它了，而且我知道很多人都在使用它，我只是-我从来没有。
Louis: Hmm, well, it’s definitely — I mean for us at Flippa it’s been fantastic, I was very skeptical when the other developers on the team suggested that they were going to start moving, you know it’s a mature application, hundreds of thousands of lines of code, and thinking of migrating that entire thing sounds just incredibly daunting. But now seeing like the ones we’ve ported over a given feature, subsequent maintenance updates to that feature a lot faster because it’s just a lot easier to work with and we wind up with a lot less code. We port a feature that was a two thousand line file in PHP and we wind up with three or four hundred lines of Rails because so much of the stuff is handled behind the scenes.
路易斯：嗯，那绝对是–我对Flippa而言真是太棒了，当团队中的其他开发人员建议他们将开始开发时，我感到非常怀疑，这是一个成熟的应用程序，成千上万的代码行，以及迁移整个内容的想法听起来令人难以置信。 但是现在看来，就像我们在给定功能上移植的那样，此功能的后续维护更新要快得多，因为它使用起来更容易，并且我们的代码也更少了。 我们移植了一个功能，该功能在PHP中是一个两千行的文件，而我们最终会使用三四百行的Rails，因为很多东西都是在后台处理的。
Stephan: Oh, cool.
斯蒂芬：哦，太酷了。
Louis: I’ve been a big fan and, yeah, looking forward I don’t think we’re on 3.2 in development yet, but definitely have a look. And that means that as of now the master branch of Rails on GitHub is targeting Rails 4.0 which will require the latest versions of Ruby, so all of the development is now going to be focused on the 4.0 branch, and definitely look forward to seeing what’s coming in that.
路易斯：我一直是超级粉丝，是的，很期待我认为我们还没有开发3.2版本，但是一定要看看。 这意味着到目前为止，GitHub上的Rails的主要分支针对的是Rails 4.0，这将需要最新版本的Ruby，因此所有开发现在都将重点放在4.0分支上，并且绝对期待看到有什么变化。进来。
Stephan: Cool.
史蒂芬：酷。
Kevin: Yeah, I think your story is actually really interesting, Louis, just because I’m starting to see that this, and it’s been going on for a long time now, especially with things like WordPress’ content management systems, where you see less and less companies actually developing or using their own proprietary system, you know, using that to sell to clients or to develop their own in-house application. And I think this is a good move because it puts you in not only an open source environment where you contribute and gain from that open community, but you can also have those updates coming in, and so you don’t have to worry about developing that next feature that’s going to be more compatible with not only legacy systems but future systems as well, right, because you want to be able to update your software on your server and your server’s hardware, so whether using Ruby on Rails as a framework or you’re using WordPress or you’re using CakePHP, whatever system that is I think it’s really helpful.
凯文：是的，路易斯，我觉得您的故事实际上真的很有趣，只是因为我开始看到了这一点，并且这种情况已经持续了很长时间，尤其是在诸如WordPress的内容管理系统之类的地方，您可以看到您知道，越来越少的公司实际在开发或使用自己的专有系统，以此来销售给客户或开发自己的内部应用程序。 我认为这是一个好举动，因为它不仅使您处于一个开放源代码环境中，您可以在该开放社区中做出贡献并从中获得收益，而且还可以将这些更新引入其中，因此您不必担心开发该下一个功能将不仅与旧系统而且与将来的系统也将更加兼容，对，因为您希望能够更新服务器和服务器硬件上的软件，因此无论使用Ruby on Rails还是框架您正在使用WordPress或CakePHP，无论我认为这对系统有什么帮助。
Louis: Yeah, definitely, and it’s good to be able to — I mean you know we’ve experienced this a lot, I mean it’s true working with just about anything because PHP is open source and most of the libraries in PHP are done open source, but in terms of something like Rails or like Cake where you’ve really just got a full stack framework that’s really focused on helping you make web applications it does make it easier to get out there, and if you run into a problem you get on the message boards or on the community and either someone else will have encountered a similar issue and come up with a workaround, or just from the fact of talking about it someone will be like oh that’s interesting, I wasn’t aware that that — and you know a couple people get to looking into it, and then you do another test case, and then eventually you wind up with a fix and you’ve given something back.
Louis：是的，当然可以，这很不错—我的意思是你知道我们已经经历了很多，我的意思是说几乎可以使用任何东西，因为PHP是开源的，并且PHP中的大多数库都是开放的来源，但就诸如Rails或Cake这样的东西而言，您实际上只是拥有一个完整的堆栈框架，该框架真正专注于帮助您制作Web应用程序，它确实使您更容易涉足这一领域，如果您遇到问题，进入留言板或社区，或者其他人会遇到类似的问题并提出解决方法，或者只是从谈论这个事实开始，有人会喜欢哦，这很有趣，我不知道—并且您知道有几个人开始研究它，然后再执行另一个测试用例，最后最终得到一个解决方案，并且您已经提供了一些东西。
Kevin: I agree, I mean when you look at something like an open source piece of software or a framework, as in the case of Ruby on Rails, you can run into a situation where you might be concerned about security, right, because the code’s out there for anybody to use, anybody can exploit it when something’s discovered, and I think that is a false assumption in open source because those things are normally patched really quickly when you have a popular framework like Ruby on Rails, right, or WordPress. So, while those concerns are there, it affecting you in a major way is I think minor, number one because the best security plan is simply to back things up and make sure that you have redundancies in different places, because it’s not a matter of if you get hacked but when you get hacked, right.
凯文：我同意，我的意思是，当您查看开源软件或框架之类的东西时(例如Ruby on Rails)，您可能会遇到可能需要担心安全性的情况，因为代码在那里供任何人使用，任何人都可以在发现某些东西后加以利用，而且我认为在开源中这是一个错误的假设，因为当您拥有诸如Ruby on Rails，right或WordPress之类的流行框架时，这些东西通常很快就会被修补。 。 因此，尽管存在这些担忧，但我认为这对您的主要影响是次要的，因为最好的安全计划只是备份内容并确保您在不同位置都有冗余，因为这不是问题。如果您被黑客入侵，但是当您被黑客入侵时，那就对了。
Louis: Yeah, quite possibly. Yeah, I think that’s definitely a concern. I mean when you’re talking about security it’s really interesting because we did have one, it wasn’t even a real security issue, but one thing that happened to us when we upgraded to the latest version of WordPress for our blog we came up against this weird issue where we’re doing — I have a WordPress plugin that I wrote for Flippa where if you’re logged into the Flippa web application you’ll automatically be logged into the blog when you go over to the blog, right, so that does an OAuth request, finds your user and then creates a new WordPress user if there isn’t already one with that name. And when we upgraded to the latest one at some point I don’t remember, someone was doing something, and then they found out they were logged in as this old admin account that hadn’t been used in forever, and there was no explanation to why this happened, and it turned out there was something deep in the new version of WordPress where when you tried to get a user from the database and it returned an error object, that error object would be passed down the chain as if it was the user’s ID, and because of some weird typecasting in PHP it treats that — it was trying to cast it to an integer, and any object casted to an integer was coming out as a one, so it was getting the user with the ID of one.
路易斯：是的，很有可能。 是的，我认为这绝对是一个问题。 我的意思是，当您谈论安全性时，它真的很有趣，因为我们确实有一个，它甚至不是真正的安全性问题，但是当我们为博客升级到最新版本的WordPress时，我们发生了一件事情针对我们正在做的这个奇怪的问题-我有一个为Flippa编写的WordPress插件，如果您登录到Flippa Web应用程序，那么当您转至博客时，您将自动登录到博客，对，以便执行OAuth请求，找到您的用户，然后创建一个新的WordPress用户(如果还没有该名称的用户)。 当我们不记得升级到最新版本时，有人在做某事，然后他们发现他们是以这个从未被永久使用过的旧管理员帐户登录的，没有任何解释为何会发生这种情况，事实证明，新版本的WordPress中存在一些深层问题，当您尝试从数据库中获取用户并返回错误对象时，该错误对象将沿着链向下传递，就像用户的ID，并且由于PHP中进行了一些怪异的类型转换，因此将其视为—试图将其强制转换为整数，并且任何强制转换为整数的对象都将作为一个整数输出，因此它使用户获得ID为之一。
Kevin: Interesting.
凯文：有趣。
Louis: And it took about — one of our developers who was active on the WordPress core team way back in the day posted this to the message board like hey this is weird, we found that if for some reason the database goes away for a split second and you get an error trying to load the user it’s possible you might wind up with the first user by accident, and that was patched and rolled into WordPress within I think 24 hours. So, like you said, when you’ve got this thing that everyone starts using and is playing around with, and this was a really weird edge case where we were doing something unconventional, it required a failure in the database, and it only happened intermittently, so a really hard thing to find, and yet still it got fixed with 24 hours on WordPress.
路易斯：事情发生了-一位活跃于WordPress核心团队的开发人员早在一天前就将其发布到留言板上，就像嘿，这很奇怪，我们发现如果由于某种原因数据库消失了其次，您在尝试加载用户时遇到错误，很可能您可能会意外地与第一个用户结盟，并且在我认为的24小时内将其修补并滚动到WordPress中。 因此，就像您说的那样，当每个人都开始使用并正在使用这种东西时，这是一个非常奇怪的边缘情况，其中我们在做非常规的事情，这需要数据库发生故障，并且只会发生断断续续，这是一件很难找到的事情，但是仍然可以在WordPress上使用24小时来解决。
Kevin: Right, exactly. I think that is probably one of the biggest like fights or arguments that people have against systems like that, and at the end of the day security is important but, you know, like you said, these things get patched quickly, and I don’t mean to sound kind of like a cliché when I do say it’s not if you get hacked but when you get hacked, but I mean it’s absolutely true, I mean if somebody really had it out for you they could find a flaw whether it’s in WordPress or some other user on your even server level, right.
凯文：对。 我认为这可能是人们针对此类系统进行的最大的争斗或争论之一，并且归根结底，安全性很重要，但是，就像您说的那样，您知道这些事情很快就会得到修补，而我不知道我不是说不是被黑客入侵而是被黑客入侵时听起来有点像陈词滥调，但是我的意思是绝对的，我的意思是如果有人真的为您找到了它，那么无论它是否存在，都可能会发现一个缺陷。 WordPress或您服务器级别的其他用户，对。
Louis: And more importantly, whether or not that’s actually true, whether or not it’s true that you will eventually be hacked, it is totally reasonable to behave as if that was true.
路易斯：而且更重要的是，无论这是否真的是真的，是否真的会最终被黑客入侵，举止像是真的是完全合理的。
Kevin: Right.
凯文：对。
Louis: And if you have the kind of preparedness where you know that even if someone tomorrow gained full access to your production database you could still recover your application quickly and be back online in a new secure environment quickly, and then that’s what you need to be ready for and to be able to handle. I don’t know how we got from the new version of Rails to worst-case security scenarios, but it’s good traveling down these roads with you guys.
路易斯：如果您有这种准备，您知道即使明天某人获得了对生产数据库的完全访问权限，您仍然可以快速恢复您的应用程序并Swift在新的安全环境中重新联机，然后这就是您所需要的准备并能够应付。 我不知道我们是如何从新版本的Rails到最坏情况的安全场景的，但是与你们一起走在这条路上是很好的。
Patrick: Good discussion.
帕特里克：好讨论。
Louis: Who’s the next story?
路易斯：下一个故事是谁？
Stephan: So I came across a blog post on Slate’s Moneybox by Matthew Yglesias, and about kind of the trap of Google and these recent privacy changes that they’ve rolled out and you’re having to read the email now of what the privacy changes are. And is it really a problem, and is the cost of free now your privacy and your data? And if that’s the cost of free is it worth it? And the argument he makes is, he actually links to another blog post by someone else named Kevin Drum, and Kevin points out that Google’s kind of got us in this space now where you can walk away from their service if you want, you know, unless you have an Android phone or if you’ve been using Gmail for six years or however long it’s been around, or YouTube, and you can go use a new platform, but are you really gonna do that? And so it’s an interesting discussion, and I thought it’s worth talking about here.
斯蒂芬：所以我碰到了马修·伊格莱西亚斯(Matthew Yglesias)在Slate的Moneybox上发表的博客文章，讲述了Google的陷阱以及他们最近推出的这些隐私更改，您现在必须阅读电子邮件以了解隐私的更改是。 这真的是一个问题吗？现在免费支付您的隐私和数据的费用吗？ 如果那是免费的成本，那值得吗？ 他提出的论据是，他实际上链接到另一个名为Kevin Drum的人的另一篇博客文章，而Kevin指出，谷歌现在已经把我们带到了这个领域，您可以在需要时放弃他们的服务，除非您拥有Android手机，或者使用Gmail已有六年之久(或者使用Gmail已有很长的历史)，或者可以使用YouTube来使用新平台，但是您真的会这么做吗？ 因此，这是一个有趣的讨论，我认为在这里值得讨论。
Kevin: I think Google has a very quality product, so it’s harder to walk away from something when it works and it’s good and it meets your needs, and, of course, it’s free.
凯文：我认为Google的产品质量很高，因此在工作正常，质量好并且可以满足您的需求时，很难摆脱它，当然，它是免费的。
Patrick: Right. And the thing about this, it’s a great point, is if you’re using something for free what is the actual cost, because there is a cost and when it comes down to it how websites make money is going to be one of two ways, you can bring it down to one of two things, either you’re going to give them money or people who want to reach you are going to give them money; it’s one or the other and there’s a lot of subdivisions between those two things.
帕特里克：对。 关于这一点，很重要的一点是，如果您免费使用某种东西，那么实际成本是多少，因为存在成本，而当成本下降时，网站赚钱的方式将是两种方式之一，您可以将其归结为两件事之一，要么是要给他们钱，要么是想要联系您的人将是他们钱。 这是一个或另一个，在这两件事之间有很多细分。
Louis: Well, there’s this old aphorism, it’s probably not really an old aphorism because it’s only been around for a few years, but if you’re not paying for it you’re the product, right.
路易斯：嗯，这是一种古老的格言，它可能并不是真正的古老格言，因为它已经存在了几年，但是如果您不付钱的话，那么您就是产品。
Stephan: Yep, yep.
斯蒂芬：是的，是的。
Patrick: That sounds right. Yeah, it’s a good point, it’s a good way to say it, it’s a more attractive way to say it than what I just said. So, there is this sort of thing with Google about do no evil and the privacy settings and how that plays in with one another, kind of the bigger story or one of the stories in this kind of wave of privacy news is that Google’s consolidating it’s privacy policies, because it had like privacy policies for each product or across different platforms, or whatever, and now it’s going to consolidate those into a more simple document that you can access in I guess one simple place. I saw the email, I actually got multiple emails, so it’s probably more then one person did if you have more than one Google account or more than one YouTube account, or whatever it is, I’m sure you got an email. And, yeah, I think Kevin makes a good point about it being a quality product because you can stop using Google, like Google isn’t — Google’s not like it’s a right, it’s not like breathing, there are other services out there, the question is will you. And even then would you pay for Google, I think the answer for most is probably no depending on the service; a lot of people would pay for Gmail based on functionality that was provided, but no one’s going to pay for Google search I would think for the most part, you know, it depends on the service and the offering, and that will determine whether or not anyone would pay for it. And if it’s put that way to you, to the average person, that you could pay and have privacy, it’s not probably an attractive sell because a lot of people feel like they should have privacy by default, but when you go out into the public Web, so to speak, and you use these services, I don’t know how much privacy you’re really entitled to, it’s a tricky question, and I think there are competing services out there that will provide you with the level of privacy you want, but then you come back to the question of quality and if they can actually compete with Google on the question of offering and what they’re actually providing to you.
帕特里克：听起来不错。 是的，这是一个好点，这是一个很好的表达方式，它是一种比我刚才说的更具吸引力的表达方式。 因此，与Google有这种关系，那就是“不要做任何事情”和隐私设置，以及隐私设置如何相互影响，这种更大的新闻或此类隐私新闻浪潮中的一个故事是Google巩固了它的地位。隐私权政策，因为它就像每个产品或跨不同平台或任何平台的隐私权政策一样，现在它将把它们合并为一个更简单的文档，您可以在一个简单的位置访问它。 我看到了这封电子邮件，实际上我收到了多封电子邮件，因此，如果您拥有多个Google帐户或一个YouTube帐户，或者肯定是一封电子邮件，那么可能比一个人要多。 而且，是的，我认为凯文(Kevin)认为它是优质产品是有好处的，因为您可以停止使用Google，就像Google不是一样-Google并不认为这是对的，它不像在呼吸，还有其他服务，问题是你。 即使那样，您还是愿意为Google付费，我认为大多数答案可能取决于服务。 很多人会根据所提供的功能为Gmail付费，但是没人会为Google搜索付费。我想，在大多数情况下，这取决于服务和产品，这将决定是否还是没有人愿意为此付出代价。 如果以这种方式向您(对普通人)来说，您可以付款并拥有隐私权，那可能就不是一种有吸引力的出售方式，因为许多人认为他们默认情况下应该拥有隐私权，但是当您公开露面时可以这么说，网络，并且您使用这些服务，我不知道您真正有权获得多少隐私，这是一个棘手的问题，我认为有一些竞争性服务可以为您提供隐私级别您想要，但是然后又回到质量问题，以及他们是否真的可以在提供产品以及他们实际为您提供的产品方面与Google竞争。
Kevin: If privacy is that important to you more than likely you’re going to be using an app on your computer, because anything on the Web by its own nature is not that private, I mean you’re on the Web, you’re sending bits across a wire, it’s not like you can sniff those out in a network if they wanted to, you know, whereas if it’s on your computer you’re a little more isolated, you can unplug completely if you need to.
凯文：如果隐私对您来说非常重要，那么您可能会在计算机上使用某个应用程序，因为网络上的任何事物本质上都不是那么私人，我的意思是您在网络上，通过电线重新发送比特，这并不是像您知道的那样，您可以将它们嗅探到网络中，相反，如果您的计算机上的比特币更加孤立，则可以根据需要完全拔掉插头。
Louis: I also think it’s fair to note that if you really wanted to be private it would be entirely possible if you didn’t have a Google account, for example, and you were just using the search and start viewing videos on YouTube, if you were being careful using your browsers in their anonymous modes and using anonymous proxies, I think you could get yourself pretty close to untraceable without great amounts of technical expertise or difficulty.
路易斯：我也认为值得一提的是，如果您确实想保密，例如，如果您没有Google帐户，那完全有可能，而您只是使用搜索并开始在YouTube上观看视频，如果您在以匿名方式使用浏览器并使用匿名代理时要格外小心，我认为您可以在没有大量技术专门知识或困难的情况下，几乎无法追踪自己。
Patrick: Yeah, that’s a good point.
帕特里克：是的，这很不错。
Louis: So it’s possible. I mean obviously in this case, like you mentioned, or like Stephan mentioned, a lot of these services are so attractive the integration of Gmail and YouTube and especially if you have an Android phone, you know, it all comes together very nicely and it’s a very slick experience if you have a Google account because everything sort of follows you around. And I do think for me anyway it’s similar, I don’t think their privacy policy, even the new one, is any worse than what Facebook is already doing, and I kind of prefer the Google experience because it’s just sort of there in the background as the infrastructure to my web browsing, whereas Facebook tries to be the entire Web, right, and you know when you click on a link to leave Facebook it’s like ‘are you sure?’ the Web out there is big and dangerous!
Louis: So it's possible. I mean obviously in this case, like you mentioned, or like Stephan mentioned, a lot of these services are so attractive the integration of Gmail and YouTube and especially if you have an Android phone, you know, it all comes together very nicely and it's a very slick experience if you have a Google account because everything sort of follows you around. And I do think for me anyway it's similar, I don't think their privacy policy, even the new one, is any worse than what Facebook is already doing, and I kind of prefer the Google experience because it's just sort of there in the background as the infrastructure to my web browsing, whereas Facebook tries to be the entire Web, right, and you know when you click on a link to leave Facebook it's like 'are you sure?' the Web out there is big and dangerous!
Patrick: Don’t talk to strangers.
Patrick: Don't talk to strangers.
Louis: (Laughs) don’t talk to companies that aren’t Facebook. I don’t know, obviously it’s a tricky issue. I actually saw a story about the same thing, oh, it’s actually a little post that Tim O’Reilly wrote on Google+ recently sort of talking about his opinion of this whole reaction to Google’s changes in privacy policy, and sort of saying he thinks it’s overblown and that collecting data isn’t really evil, and that there’s a lot of — it would be potentially what they do with the data; if they start doing something unethical with that data down the line that would be evil, but right now all they’re doing is collecting data and making links for their own analytical purposes, which we can’t really decry on principle, especially as you noted using these services voluntarily.
Louis: (Laughs) don't talk to companies that aren't Facebook. I don't know, obviously it's a tricky issue. I actually saw a story about the same thing, oh, it's actually a little post that Tim O'Reilly wrote on Google+ recently sort of talking about his opinion of this whole reaction to Google's changes in privacy policy, and sort of saying he thinks it's overblown and that collecting data isn't really evil, and that there's a lot of — it would be potentially what they do with the data; if they start doing something unethical with that data down the line that would be evil, but right now all they're doing is collecting data and making links for their own analytical purposes, which we can't really decry on principle, especially as you noted using these services voluntarily.
Patrick: I think that’s a fair point. As someone who runs a service that people use voluntarily, and obviously you’re involved in those services, and so we have that perspective. And when it comes to monetizing a website or even — there’s a lot of uses for data, let’s just not say it’s money, right, because that’s part of it, we use that data for AB testing, if we don’t serve ads we use to find out how to get you to buy faster or how to get you to completion faster, but, that data’s also used to improve websites in other ways when it comes to usability and design and functionality, you know we base how we target our sites, what geographic regions we target them to, what times of day we update; all those things are sometimes targeted based upon the analytics we collect when you visit the website to put together research, to make smarter decisions. So it’s not just if you want to think money’s evil, it’s not just the evil pursuits of our organizations that use data, it’s in a well-organized company, it’s all facets of the organization that use that data.
Patrick: I think that's a fair point. As someone who runs a service that people use voluntarily, and obviously you're involved in those services, and so we have that perspective. And when it comes to monetizing a website or even — there's a lot of uses for data, let's just not say it's money, right, because that's part of it, we use that data for AB testing, if we don't serve ads we use to find out how to get you to buy faster or how to get you to completion faster, but, that data's also used to improve websites in other ways when it comes to usability and design and functionality, you know we base how we target our sites, what geographic regions we target them to, what times of day we update; all those things are sometimes targeted based upon the analytics we collect when you visit the website to put together research, to make smarter decisions. So it's not just if you want to think money's evil, it's not just the evil pursuits of our organizations that use data, it's in a well-organized company, it's all facets of the organization that use that data.
Kevin: It makes for a better web. I would almost argue that we want Google to invade our privacy just a little bit because if it didn’t I mean the Web really wouldn’t — or Google wouldn’t be what it is today, I can’t say that the Web wouldn’t be what it is today, it’s too broad or a sweeping statement, but yeah.
Kevin: It makes for a better web. I would almost argue that we want Google to invade our privacy just a little bit because if it didn't I mean the Web really wouldn't — or Google wouldn't be what it is today, I can't say that the Web wouldn't be what it is today, it's too broad or a sweeping statement, but yeah.
Louis: It’s interesting to see because in some senses it is sort of a gradual erosion, right, because I remember when Google first started running ads, or contextual ads alongside Gmail, right, where the ads that you see on the right side of your Gmail would be contextually related to the content of the emails that were being sent, right. I don’t know if you guys ever heard anything about this, but I remember some people were like, ooh, that’s kind of creepy, I mean Google is, you know, or Google’s computers anyway, are reading the emails and serving ads related to that, but then that just sort of became background and nobody really worries about that so much anymore. And I do kind of wonder if it’s easy to move the goalposts of what is considered normal gradually like this, you know, what is the point at which — is there a point at which people will be like whoa, whoa, whoa, now we’ve actually gone too far, or is it all just sort of gradually become normal.
Louis: It's interesting to see because in some senses it is sort of a gradual erosion, right, because I remember when Google first started running ads, or contextual ads alongside Gmail, right, where the ads that you see on the right side of your Gmail would be contextually related to the content of the emails that were being sent, right. I don't know if you guys ever heard anything about this, but I remember some people were like, ooh, that's kind of creepy, I mean Google is, you know, or Google's computers anyway, are reading the emails and serving ads related to that, but then that just sort of became background and nobody really worries about that so much anymore. And I do kind of wonder if it's easy to move the goalposts of what is considered normal gradually like this, you know, what is the point at which — is there a point at which people will be like whoa, whoa, whoa, now we've actually gone too far, or is it all just sort of gradually become normal.
Kevin: Yeah, I think the thing that concerns me most is like, for example, the email situation that you’re talking about, it’s whether or not these services or in general people associate you with what they’re talking about, right. So, if you send me an ad for something I’m cool with you sending a company information about what it is that’s in my email as long as you don’t tell them it’s me, because people already know that these things are out there, if you understand what I’m saying.
Kevin: Yeah, I think the thing that concerns me most is like, for example, the email situation that you're talking about, it's whether or not these services or in general people associate you with what they're talking about, right. So, if you send me an ad for something I'm cool with you sending a company information about what it is that's in my email as long as you don't tell them it's me, because people already know that these things are out there, if you understand what I'm saying.
Louis: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Obviously it’s a matter of how they treat that information; because I use Google services voluntarily I understand that Google will be using the data in here to decide what ads to show to me, but then when I click through, for example to that advertiser, what kind of information do they have, and what kind of information is Google providing to these third parties, and how personally identifiable is it, because that’s a place where I think everyone gets a little bit on edge talking about the idea of providing this or making this data available easily to advertisers.
Louis: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Obviously it's a matter of how they treat that information; because I use Google services voluntarily I understand that Google will be using the data in here to decide what ads to show to me, but then when I click through, for example to that advertiser, what kind of information do they have, and what kind of information is Google providing to these third parties, and how personally identifiable is it, because that's a place where I think everyone gets a little bit on edge talking about the idea of providing this or making this data available easily to advertisers.
Kevin: I think it’s interesting. And you know Google isn’t the only one facing these issues, I mean this is also companies like Facebook.
Kevin: I think it's interesting. And you know Google isn't the only one facing these issues, I mean this is also companies like Facebook.
Patrick: Everyone. I think everyone who runs a social platform or an online community or anything that has people signup for accounts especially is facing these issues. On the more basic level if you use that data for the things I discussed you could get that from guests, so everyone’s being collected from whether you’re logged in or not. But, Louis, I actually wanted to ask you something; are you still in your Facebook hiatus?
Patrick: Everyone. I think everyone who runs a social platform or an online community or anything that has people signup for accounts especially is facing these issues. On the more basic level if you use that data for the things I discussed you could get that from guests, so everyone's being collected from whether you're logged in or not. But, Louis, I actually wanted to ask you something; are you still in your Facebook hiatus?
Louis: Uh, sort of. My really strong objection to it, it was actually just a couple of apps, sort of the passive sharing ones that they introduced.
Louis: Uh, sort of. My really strong objection to it, it was actually just a couple of apps, sort of the passive sharing ones that they introduced.
Patrick: Right, yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you’re talking about, like the Washington Post app where you have people saying they’ve read this article, but if you click it then it’s go through these steps, install this, and you can’t get to the article directly.
Patrick: Right, yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, like the Washington Post app where you have people saying they've read this article, but if you click it then it's go through these steps, install this, and you can't get to the article directly.
Louis: Yeah. So there was particularly the Washington Post and The Guardian were the ones that were really annoying.
路易斯：是的。 So there was particularly the Washington Post and The Guardian were the ones that were really annoying.
Patrick: Right.
帕特里克：对。
Louis: So I guess I haven’t really posted updates to Facebook in a long time, I don’t really —
Louis: So I guess I haven't really posted updates to Facebook in a long time, I don't really —
Patrick: No, you haven’t. I was just on your profile and it’s basically all me (laughter).
Patrick: No, you haven't. I was just on your profile and it's basically all me (laughter).
Louis: Yeah, it’s you tagging me in things, and it’s sometimes I’ll tick the box when I’m checking in on Foursquare to share it on Facebook because I figure some people might just be looking at Facebook and be able to come out for a drink or whatever. But, yeah, I’ll occasionally check in just to see what some people are doing who aren’t on other services because a lot of my friends especially from back home don’t use Twitter or Google+. Yeah, I don’t like it, I’m still — I still feel kind of icky going in there because of the way they sort of put a little bit too much attempt — too big an attempt to control the way I use the Web, and the ability to just share a link really is the fundamental interaction mode that I want out of a social network.
Louis: Yeah, it's you tagging me in things, and it's sometimes I'll tick the box when I'm checking in on Foursquare to share it on Facebook because I figure some people might just be looking at Facebook and be able to come out for a drink or whatever. But, yeah, I'll occasionally check in just to see what some people are doing who aren't on other services because a lot of my friends especially from back home don't use Twitter or Google+. Yeah, I don't like it, I'm still — I still feel kind of icky going in there because of the way they sort of put a little bit too much attempt — too big an attempt to control the way I use the Web, and the ability to just share a link really is the fundamental interaction mode that I want out of a social network.
Patrick: Right.
帕特里克：对。
Louis: And right there they’ve sort of broken the ability to share links from some sources because they’re being intercepted by these apps. And basically it’s the basics of social recommendation for me, right; I want to recommend something after I’ve read it.
Louis: And right there they've sort of broken the ability to share links from some sources because they're being intercepted by these apps. And basically it's the basics of social recommendation for me, right; I want to recommend something after I've read it.
Kevin: But doesn’t that architecture fall apart on itself, I mean eventually they’ll stop doing this because people are going to react in an adverse way to the way whatever company it is that makes the applications that do this, right. So, it’s kind of a, I would like personally, it’s a situation that fixes itself over time. So Facebook wouldn’t necessarily have to go in and critique how they say people have to make applications, I mean they can, which would make Facebook better.
Kevin: But doesn't that architecture fall apart on itself, I mean eventually they'll stop doing this because people are going to react in an adverse way to the way whatever company it is that makes the applications that do this, right. So, it's kind of a, I would like personally, it's a situation that fixes itself over time. So Facebook wouldn't necessarily have to go in and critique how they say people have to make applications, I mean they can, which would make Facebook better.
Louis: You know it’s possible that things will just get better, but from users sort of rebelling against these things, but that doesn’t, like we said, that doesn’t happen a lot; most of the time people just sort of grow accustomed to something and treat it as the new normal.
Louis: You know it's possible that things will just get better, but from users sort of rebelling against these things, but that doesn't, like we said, that doesn't happen a lot; most of the time people just sort of grow accustomed to something and treat it as the new normal.
Kevin: This is true.
Kevin: This is true.
Louis: A little bit too easily in my opinion.
Louis: A little bit too easily in my opinion.
Kevin: Yeah, things like IE6 that sit around way too long (laughter).
Kevin: Yeah, things like IE6 that sit around way too long (laughter).
Patrick: It’s gone now, okay, can we stop! (Laughter)
Patrick: It's gone now, okay, can we stop! (笑声)
Louis: It is gone instead.
Louis: It is gone instead.
Patrick: What’s that; let the dead rest?
Patrick: What's that; let the dead rest?
Stephan: Let sleeping dogs lie.
Stephan: Let sleeping dogs lie.
Patrick: Whatever it is, yeah, whatever it is just leave it.
Patrick: Whatever it is, yeah, whatever it is just leave it.
Kevin: You mean rest in peace, RIP?
Kevin: You mean rest in peace, RIP?
Louis: It’s not just sleeping, it’s dead and buried.
Louis: It's not just sleeping, it's dead and buried.
Patrick: It’s like don’t dig it up. So, speaking of both Facebook and dominating services, the last story of today is the world map of social networks, this is from Vicenzo Cosenza, who’s an Italian Digital Strategist, and I picked this up through The Next Web in a story by Nancy Messiah, basically Mr. Cosenza tracks social networking use in various countries throughout the world.
Patrick: It's like don't dig it up. So, speaking of both Facebook and dominating services, the last story of today is the world map of social networks, this is from Vicenzo Cosenza, who's an Italian Digital Strategist, and I picked this up through The Next Web in a story by Nancy Messiah, basically Mr. Cosenza tracks social networking use in various countries throughout the world.
Louis: Oh, my God, the train is back (laughs).
Louis: Oh, my God, the train is back (laughs).
Patrick: (Laughs) the train is back! Zuckerberg?
Patrick: (Laughs) the train is back! Zuckerberg?
Kevin: No, Zuckerberg just doesn’t want us to talk about this topic.
Kevin: No, Zuckerberg just doesn't want us to talk about this topic.
Patrick: But, yeah, so he tracks 136 countries and 127 of them have Facebook as the most popular social network. And it’s important to put this data in the right light; the data is in care of Alexa and Google transfer websites traffic data for December 2011.
Patrick: But, yeah, so he tracks 136 countries and 127 of them have Facebook as the most popular social network. And it's important to put this data in the right light; the data is in care of Alexa and Google transfer websites traffic data for December 2011.
Kevin: You have to speak louder, Patrick.
Kevin: You have to speak louder, Patrick.
Patrick: Yes, thank you. So, basically he trends it over time, right, from June 2009, I believe, through December 2011 he has a map of the world that makes it really easy to visualize, it’s based on colors, Facebook is obviously blue and the color blue is in the countries where it’s most dominant, and you can see over time how Facebook has become more popular throughout the world. There are still a few holdouts for Facebook’s dominance, at least at this point, one of which is Latvia, another is Russia, and then there are China which is a holdout and a couple others, but mostly it’s Facebook around the world, the world is pretty blue right now. Of course there are some differences here and there based on the country you’re in, but overall Facebook is the most popular social network globally in most countries where this sort of data is tracked. And I guess this isn’t that deep of a story, it’s a fun map to look at and to consider, you know we talk about Facebook and some of the minor things, or major things in some cases, with Facebook that we don’t like; is this a good thing or a bad thing, does it matter, is Facebook becoming the Google search of social networks where eventually they’ll have 90+% market share of the world, or is this just a trend, is Facebook going to eventually go the way of platforms that came before it?
Patrick: Yes, thank you. So, basically he trends it over time, right, from June 2009, I believe, through December 2011 he has a map of the world that makes it really easy to visualize, it's based on colors, Facebook is obviously blue and the color blue is in the countries where it's most dominant, and you can see over time how Facebook has become more popular throughout the world. There are still a few holdouts for Facebook's dominance, at least at this point, one of which is Latvia, another is Russia, and then there are China which is a holdout and a couple others, but mostly it's Facebook around the world, the world is pretty blue right now. Of course there are some differences here and there based on the country you're in, but overall Facebook is the most popular social network globally in most countries where this sort of data is tracked. And I guess this isn't that deep of a story, it's a fun map to look at and to consider, you know we talk about Facebook and some of the minor things, or major things in some cases, with Facebook that we don't like; is this a good thing or a bad thing, does it matter, is Facebook becoming the Google search of social networks where eventually they'll have 90+% market share of the world, or is this just a trend, is Facebook going to eventually go the way of platforms that came before it?
Kevin: I don’t agree with the democratic world that Facebook is painting on this map, but I think that Facebook kind of has a, like Google, right, it has a lock on — like Google has a lock on the Web as information, right, you can now search almost anything on the Web and have some result for it unless you’ve been blacklisted, or whatever, where Facebook has a connection like it’s built a platform of people in their connections. So you have Google which is the connections between information and documents, and then Facebook which is the connections of people and their lives. And I think that once you have something like a web that big it’s hard to step out of because it’s your personal life, right, it’s your investment. And like I just said, it is your investment; you’ve put a lot of energy into a service like Facebook.
Kevin: I don't agree with the democratic world that Facebook is painting on this map, but I think that Facebook kind of has a, like Google, right, it has a lock on — like Google has a lock on the Web as information, right, you can now search almost anything on the Web and have some result for it unless you've been blacklisted, or whatever, where Facebook has a connection like it's built a platform of people in their connections. So you have Google which is the connections between information and documents, and then Facebook which is the connections of people and their lives. And I think that once you have something like a web that big it's hard to step out of because it's your personal life, right, it's your investment. And like I just said, it is your investment; you've put a lot of energy into a service like Facebook.
Patrick: Right, there’s a deep data investment, and also the connections that you have built up over time. Louis?
Patrick: Right, there's a deep data investment, and also the connections that you have built up over time. Louis?
Louis: Yeah, I mean it’s interesting to watch this; you’ve got an animated version of this map where you can see the spread. It’s interesting because there are a couple — most notably for me is Brazil where Orkut was dominant for a long time and it was one of the things, it was one of those places where this social network that sort of didn’t catch on anywhere else was hugely popular in this one area, and I see that in the latest iteration of the map, so just recently December 2011 Brazil went from being pink to being blue all of a sudden. So I see a couple of longstanding holdouts, so namely Brazil and I think Mongolia was one of the last ones to switch as well away from, what is that, hi5 over to Facebook being the dominant one. Yeah, so it’s interesting watching it wipeout, and it’s interesting, it draws for me a parallel of sort of any kind of big multi-national, say, retailer or restaurant chain having a similar effect on local businesses. I know a lot of these social networks might not be local to those markets, I think the Russian one is, so Russia’s still — is still a holdout, and I think China as well, and I think both of those networks are indigenous networks. But, yeah, it does feel kind of a little bit disappointing for me because it feels like you kind of want to root for the underdogs, right, you want those smaller local networks with a strong regional focus to remain active. But at the same time if Facebook can provide all of the same benefits through translation, I know they put a lot of work into internationalizing their interface, but also give the advantage of being able to network with people throughout the rest of the world, then that might be a good thing.
Louis: Yeah, I mean it's interesting to watch this; you've got an animated version of this map where you can see the spread. It's interesting because there are a couple — most notably for me is Brazil where Orkut was dominant for a long time and it was one of the things, it was one of those places where this social network that sort of didn't catch on anywhere else was hugely popular in this one area, and I see that in the latest iteration of the map, so just recently December 2011 Brazil went from being pink to being blue all of a sudden. So I see a couple of longstanding holdouts, so namely Brazil and I think Mongolia was one of the last ones to switch as well away from, what is that, hi5 over to Facebook being the dominant one. Yeah, so it's interesting watching it wipeout, and it's interesting, it draws for me a parallel of sort of any kind of big multi-national, say, retailer or restaurant chain having a similar effect on local businesses. I know a lot of these social networks might not be local to those markets, I think the Russian one is, so Russia's still — is still a holdout, and I think China as well, and I think both of those networks are indigenous networks. But, yeah, it does feel kind of a little bit disappointing for me because it feels like you kind of want to root for the underdogs, right, you want those smaller local networks with a strong regional focus to remain active. But at the same time if Facebook can provide all of the same benefits through translation, I know they put a lot of work into internationalizing their interface, but also give the advantage of being able to network with people throughout the rest of the world, then that might be a good thing.
Patrick: I agree with what you said, Louis, and I think it’s important to recognize the difference between say the social network of kind of the Facebook model or the MySpace model, or whatever model you want to put it on, the Friendster model, but it’s important to separate that from other types of online communities and platforms, because Facebook is great at certain things that Facebook does. What Facebook is not so great at is let’s say you want to interact with a group of people that you don’t already know in a specific state or city or region or even country, you know, you want to build up or talk about what’s going on in that country, Facebook isn’t really the platform for that unless you have a huge following of people, unless you have tons of friends or a popular fan page. I mean if you want to discuss with people in the country you’re going to go to a community and a platform that is focused at that country. Facebook is more about personal aspects, personal connections, not so much connecting around a topic or an interest.
Patrick: I agree with what you said, Louis, and I think it's important to recognize the difference between say the social network of kind of the Facebook model or the MySpace model, or whatever model you want to put it on, the Friendster model, but it's important to separate that from other types of online communities and platforms, because Facebook is great at certain things that Facebook does. What Facebook is not so great at is let's say you want to interact with a group of people that you don't already know in a specific state or city or region or even country, you know, you want to build up or talk about what's going on in that country, Facebook isn't really the platform for that unless you have a huge following of people, unless you have tons of friends or a popular fan page. I mean if you want to discuss with people in the country you're going to go to a community and a platform that is focused at that country. Facebook is more about personal aspects, personal connections, not so much connecting around a topic or an interest.
Louis: Yeah, that’s a good point because even a good Facebook fan page with a lot of interaction it’s very timely, right, you’ll see a post on something and people will comment on it, and then the next day it’s sort of gone and it’s even hard to find these older discussion threads.
Louis: Yeah, that's a good point because even a good Facebook fan page with a lot of interaction it's very timely, right, you'll see a post on something and people will comment on it, and then the next day it's sort of gone and it's even hard to find these older discussion threads.
Patrick: Right.
帕特里克：对。
Louis: Whereas on software that’s a little bit more focused around the idea of discussions, and that could be, you know, whether it’s in person stuff like what you get on meetup.com or forums or the kind of software question and answer type things like Stack Exchange. There are all kinds of software that’s maybe better at certain types of discussion, definitely. So, I don’t know, maybe it does make sense to have this one underlying network that anyone can use to connect with people throughout the world and just keep in touch. For me, I use Facebook kind of as a phonebook, right; everyone I’ve met is sort of in there, and if I ever need to contact them and I don’t have their email, or whatever, I know that I can find them on Facebook.
Louis: Whereas on software that's a little bit more focused around the idea of discussions, and that could be, you know, whether it's in person stuff like what you get on meetup.com or forums or the kind of software question and answer type things like Stack Exchange. There are all kinds of software that's maybe better at certain types of discussion, definitely. So, I don't know, maybe it does make sense to have this one underlying network that anyone can use to connect with people throughout the world and just keep in touch. For me, I use Facebook kind of as a phonebook, right; everyone I've met is sort of in there, and if I ever need to contact them and I don't have their email, or whatever, I know that I can find them on Facebook.
Kevin: I mean I know people that don’t use Facebook, but it’s a rare occurrence and usually it’s for reasons, I don’t know, personal beliefs, but more of a boycott than anything, you know.
Kevin: I mean I know people that don't use Facebook, but it's a rare occurrence and usually it's for reasons, I don't know, personal beliefs, but more of a boycott than anything, you know.
Louis: Yeah.
路易斯：是的。
Patrick: Just like there are some people who aren’t listed in the phonebook.
Patrick: Just like there are some people who aren't listed in the phonebook.
Kevin: Yeah, exactly.
凯文：是的，确实如此。
Louis: Man, I just got a stack of Yellow Pages delivered outside my apartment; why are we still getting these things, sorry, I have to go on a rant about phonebooks, but nobody’s even picking them up anymore.
Louis: Man, I just got a stack of Yellow Pages delivered outside my apartment; why are we still getting these things, sorry, I have to go on a rant about phonebooks, but nobody's even picking them up anymore.
Stephan: They just leave them out.
Stephan: They just leave them out.
Kevin: Right.
凯文：对。
Patrick: Right, a lot of people aren’t using them.
Patrick: Right, a lot of people aren't using them.
Louis: Like not a single person has taken one, it’s the same stack that’s been sitting there for two weeks.
Louis: Like not a single person has taken one, it's the same stack that's been sitting there for two weeks.
Patrick: I mean I’m not so much — I don’t think they should stop producing them as much as they should maybe make it upon request.
Patrick: I mean I'm not so much — I don't think they should stop producing them as much as they should maybe make it upon request.
Louis: Yeah, I agree with that.
路易斯：是的，我同意这一点。
Patrick: Yeah, because I know some people who use phonebooks, but I know myself, I mean if the power is out I suppose it might be interesting because the phone would still work, so I don’t know, that’s the like case where it would be useful to me, but that’s like an edge case, so otherwise I won’t use the phonebook.
Patrick: Yeah, because I know some people who use phonebooks, but I know myself, I mean if the power is out I suppose it might be interesting because the phone would still work, so I don't know, that's the like case where it would be useful to me, but that's like an edge case, so otherwise I won't use the phonebook.
Kevin: Now, you can correct me if I’m wrong, and I’m probably wrong here, but I think that advertising model for the phonebook is when you buy an ad in the phone book you’re buying an ad for so many prints, not for so many deliveries.
Kevin: Now, you can correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm probably wrong here, but I think that advertising model for the phonebook is when you buy an ad in the phone book you're buying an ad for so many prints, not for so many deliveries.
Patrick: I don’t know; I mean you’re making a good point that advertising is a part of why they produce phonebooks.
帕特里克：我不知道。 I mean you're making a good point that advertising is a part of why they produce phonebooks.
Kevin: Right, so even if they don’t give any of them away, because you pay for your ad they still have to print that number of books. Now, again, I could be wrong but I think that’s why.
Kevin: Right, so even if they don't give any of them away, because you pay for your ad they still have to print that number of books. Now, again, I could be wrong but I think that's why.
Louis: Well, see, this is another example of old, broken advertising models.
Louis: Well, see, this is another example of old, broken advertising models.
Kevin: Right, exactly.
凯文：对。
Louis: And it’s the same reason why we still have like pagination on website articles, it’s just an old advertising model where they want to drum up impressions, and it makes no sense, the advertiser’s paying for the same person to see their ad a few times in a row which is a waste of money, but this is how they’ve always done things so they can keep spending money. That was my rant, it had nothing to do with anything (laughter), I’m just annoyed about getting Yellow Pages, alright.
Louis: And it's the same reason why we still have like pagination on website articles, it's just an old advertising model where they want to drum up impressions, and it makes no sense, the advertiser's paying for the same person to see their ad a few times in a row which is a waste of money, but this is how they've always done things so they can keep spending money. That was my rant, it had nothing to do with anything (laughter), I'm just annoyed about getting Yellow Pages, alright.
Patrick: That’s the podcast; it’s not to do with anything.
Patrick: That's the podcast; it's not to do with anything.
Louis: (Laughs) speaking of not to do with anything, spotlights; Patrick you can go first since yours is the most likely not to have anything to do with anything.
Louis: (Laughs) speaking of not to do with anything, spotlights; Patrick you can go first since yours is the most likely not to have anything to do with anything.
Patrick: I’m the king of that. But I think tonight I’m going to be a disappointing king, I’m going to be a king you want to overthrow because it’s not directly related but it’s related enough. So my spotlight is WPLateNight which is a new WordPress-focused podcast that is co-hosted by our old friend Brad Williams of the SitePoint podcast, formerly.
Patrick: I'm the king of that. But I think tonight I'm going to be a disappointing king, I'm going to be a king you want to overthrow because it's not directly related but it's related enough. So my spotlight is WPLateNight which is a new WordPress-focused podcast that is co-hosted by our old friend Brad Williams of the SitePoint podcast, formerly.
Kevin: It’s a good show, I’ve listened to it.
Kevin: It's a good show, I've listened to it.
Patrick: Okay, cool, yeah. I haven’t because I don’t listen to podcasts (laughter), but — but, no, Brad is co-host with Ryan Emil of WPCandy and Dre Armeda, and it is hosted by WPCandy, wpcandy.com, and we’ll have a link to the show directly in the notes. They’ve only released one episode, so partly kicked it off, it’s a video podcast, not just audio but also video is available, so if you’re interested in WordPress at all definitely check it out, it’s a good group of guys, and I’m sure that Brad will bring his insights to that show as well; just don’t forget where you honed your skills, Brad.
Patrick: Okay, cool, yeah. I haven't because I don't listen to podcasts (laughter), but — but, no, Brad is co-host with Ryan Emil of WPCandy and Dre Armeda, and it is hosted by WPCandy, wpcandy.com , and we'll have a link to the show directly in the notes. They've only released one episode, so partly kicked it off, it's a video podcast, not just audio but also video is available, so if you're interested in WordPress at all definitely check it out, it's a good group of guys, and I'm sure that Brad will bring his insights to that show as well; just don't forget where you honed your skills, Brad.
Louis: Alright. Stephan, you want to go next?
路易斯：好吧。 Stephan, you want to go next?
Stephan: Yeah, so I have a bookmarklet, I shouldn’t say it’s a bookmarklet, a little application that converts your bookmarklets to Chrome extensions, it’s pretty neat, you just put in a name, description, and you drag the bookmarklet into this box and it generates an extension and you’re good to go, so, kind of cool, kind of useful.
Stephan: Yeah, so I have a bookmarklet, I shouldn't say it's a bookmarklet, a little application that converts your bookmarklets to Chrome extensions, it's pretty neat, you just put in a name, description, and you drag the bookmarklet into this box and it generates an extension and you're good to go, so, kind of cool, kind of useful.
Louis: Yeah, that’s really useful. So we’ll drop a link in the show notes, is it — it’s a link that’s hard to say.
Louis: Yeah, that's really useful. So we'll drop a link in the show notes, is it — it's a link that's hard to say.
Stephan: Yeah, it’s sandbox.self.li/bookmarklet-to-extension, so yeah, we’ll put a link.
Stephan: Yeah, it's sandbox.self.li/bookmarklet-to-extension , so yeah, we'll put a link.
Louis: We’ll put a link (laughter). Cool, my spotlight for this week is at hellohappy.org/beautiful-web-type, they’ll be a link in the notes. What it is is this really nicely designed page which aims to be a showcase of the best typefaces from the Google Web Fonts Directory. So most people will be familiar with the Google Web Fonts Directory, it started — we talked about it on the podcast just when it started, it was at the time maybe I think a dozen or so fonts that were made available by Google, hosted on Google servers, that you could just drop a link to a style sheet file and then use that font in your CSS, and it started with only, like I said, a few fonts, but apparently there are currently 404 typefaces in the Web Fonts Directory, so it’s grown pretty impressively over a short period of time. Of course a lot of those fonts aren’t great, but this is a webpage made by a type designer who wants to highlight the really good ones, and they’ve done sort of these little compositions, typographic compositions, showing off some of the better fonts; they’re really all nice compositions, so even if you’re not interested in using these particular fonts it can be cool to just have a look and see how they’ve played with type and done these interesting little things, and it also gives you pointers to which of the fonts are really good and can be used in really interesting ways.
Louis: We'll put a link (laughter). Cool, my spotlight for this week is at hellohappy.org/beautiful-web-type , they'll be a link in the notes. What it is is this really nicely designed page which aims to be a showcase of the best typefaces from the Google Web Fonts Directory. So most people will be familiar with the Google Web Fonts Directory, it started — we talked about it on the podcast just when it started, it was at the time maybe I think a dozen or so fonts that were made available by Google, hosted on Google servers, that you could just drop a link to a style sheet file and then use that font in your CSS, and it started with only, like I said, a few fonts, but apparently there are currently 404 typefaces in the Web Fonts Directory, so it's grown pretty impressively over a short period of time. Of course a lot of those fonts aren't great, but this is a webpage made by a type designer who wants to highlight the really good ones, and they've done sort of these little compositions, typographic compositions, showing off some of the better fonts; they're really all nice compositions, so even if you're not interested in using these particular fonts it can be cool to just have a look and see how they've played with type and done these interesting little things, and it also gives you pointers to which of the fonts are really good and can be used in really interesting ways.
Kevin: Awesome. My spotlight is an excellent little JavaScript-like manipulation cool plugin thing, if that describes it properly, it’s called List.js, you can check it out at listjs.com, and if you go to the site you can check out some of the examples that basically gives you a lot of cool features, if you have long lists on a website it allows you to sort those by category, by name, you can do searches against them, edit, add or remove, you can start paging them, you can add some performance, I mean there’s a lot of things added in there that make this specific little script very happy to be at your website, if that makes any sense.
凯文：太棒了。 My spotlight is an excellent little JavaScript-like manipulation cool plugin thing, if that describes it properly, it's called List.js, you can check it out at listjs.com , and if you go to the site you can check out some of the examples that basically gives you a lot of cool features, if you have long lists on a website it allows you to sort those by category, by name, you can do searches against them, edit, add or remove, you can start paging them, you can add some performance, I mean there's a lot of things added in there that make this specific little script very happy to be at your website, if that makes any sense.
Louis: Yeah, it looks cool. I’d have to have a longer play around with it to see what it’s really up to, but I like the way the pagination works. If you go to the pagination page and you’re on page one and then it’s got the ellipsis, and if you click on two and then three and then four, the ellipsis kind of moves across and then eventually it ellipses before where you’re at and after where you’re at, so it’s pretty clever, definitely nice if you’ve got lists of things on your website, and most websites have lists of things on them.
Louis: Yeah, it looks cool. I'd have to have a longer play around with it to see what it's really up to, but I like the way the pagination works. If you go to the pagination page and you're on page one and then it's got the ellipsis, and if you click on two and then three and then four, the ellipsis kind of moves across and then eventually it ellipses before where you're at and after where you're at, so it's pretty clever, definitely nice if you've got lists of things on your website, and most websites have lists of things on them.
Kevin: Right. I could see this being really helpful if you have like a list of people maybe going to a conference, like if you run a conference you could use this for like the registry, so you could search to see if your friend’s going to it without having to scroll through a really long list, and because that data is relatively small when you list things out on a website like that, you could pump that data out and just sort it using JavaScript which would be much faster and less requests as far as your web server’s concerned.
凯文：对。 I could see this being really helpful if you have like a list of people maybe going to a conference, like if you run a conference you could use this for like the registry, so you could search to see if your friend's going to it without having to scroll through a really long list, and because that data is relatively small when you list things out on a website like that, you could pump that data out and just sort it using JavaScript which would be much faster and less requests as far as your web server's concerned.
Louis: Right. Is it based on jQuery, does it require jQuery, or is it standalone JavaScript?
路易斯：对。 Is it based on jQuery, does it require jQuery, or is it standalone JavaScript?
Kevin: Yeah, so the examples on the site are built using jQuery but it’s not required.
Kevin: Yeah, so the examples on the site are built using jQuery but it's not required.
Louis: Oh, that’s cool, good to know. A lot of newer libraries tend to sort of sit on top of jQuery as a plugin, but it’s nice that this is library agnostic.
Louis: Oh, that's cool, good to know. A lot of newer libraries tend to sort of sit on top of jQuery as a plugin, but it's nice that this is library agnostic.
Kevin: To have something that you can use outside of something like jQuery I think it’s a good thing because that’s one less thing you have to download if that’s all you really want, right, so it helps support a smaller web, not in that the Web should be smaller, but the Web should be less bytes.
Kevin: To have something that you can use outside of something like jQuery I think it's a good thing because that's one less thing you have to download if that's all you really want, right, so it helps support a smaller web, not in that the Web should be smaller, but the Web should be less bytes.
Louis: It should be fewer bytes or it should be lighter, we should say we want a lighter Web.
Louis: It should be fewer bytes or it should be lighter, we should say we want a lighter Web.
Kevin: A lighter Web, a lighter Web.
Kevin: A lighter Web, a lighter Web.
Patrick: Yeah, so when you’re taking a byte out of it you don’t gain as much weight. Bah-dum-bum.
Patrick: Yeah, so when you're taking a byte out of it you don't gain as much weight. Bah-dum-bum.
Louis: Okay. (Laughter) I think that is a clear indication that we’ve run our course for this week, so let’s give it a run around the table.
路易斯：好的。 (Laughter) I think that is a clear indication that we've run our course for this week, so let's give it a run around the table.
Kevin: Right, so I’m Kevin Dees, you can find me at kevindees.cc and on Twitter as @kevindees.
Kevin: Right, so I'm Kevin Dees, you can find me at kevindees.cc and on Twitter as @kevindees .
Patrick: I am Patrick O’Keefe for the iFroggy Network, I blog at managingcommunities.com, on Twitter @ifroggy, i-f-r-o-g-g-y.
Patrick: I am Patrick O'Keefe for the iFroggy Network, I blog at managingcommunities.com , on Twitter @ifroggy , ifroggy.
Stephan: I’m Stephan Segraves, you can find me on Twitter @ssegraves, and I blog occasionally at badice.com.
Stephan: I'm Stephan Segraves, you can find me on Twitter @ssegraves , and I blog occasionally at badice.com .
Louis: And you can follow SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, that’s sitepointd-o-t-c-o-m, and you can follow me on Twitter @rssaddict. Go to Sitepoint.com/podcast to keep up with all our shows, you can find our previous episodes, leave a comment and you can also subscribe to the RSS. You can email us at podcast@sitepoint.com, and of course we are available on iTunes as well. Thanks for listening.
Louis: And you can follow SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom , that's sitepointd-otcom, and you can follow me on Twitter @rssaddict . Go to Sitepoint.com/podcast to keep up with all our shows, you can find our previous episodes, leave a comment and you can also subscribe to the RSS. You can email us at podcast@sitepoint.com, and of course we are available on iTunes as well. 谢谢收听。
Theme music by Mike Mella.
Mike Mella的主题音乐。
Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.
谢谢收听！ 欢迎使用下面的评论字段让我们知道我们的状况，或者继续讨论。
翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-148-all-aboard-the-facebook-train/
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