Episode 99 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy) chats with Amber Naslund (@ambercadabra) and Jay Baer (@jaybaer) about their book, The Now Revolution, which is aimed at making your business faster, smarter, and more social.
SitePoint Podcast的 第99集现已发布！ 本周，Patrick O'Keefe( @iFroggy )与Amber Naslund( @ambercadabra )和Jay Baer( @jaybaer )谈论了他们的书《 The Now Revolution》 ，该书旨在使您的业务更快，更智能，更社交。
下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)
You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:
您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：
SitePoint Podcast #99: The Now Revolution with Amber Naslund and Jay Baer(MP3, 46:48, 42.9MB)SitePoint播客＃99：Amber Naslund和Jay Baer的《现在的革命》(MP3，46:48，42.9MB)
面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)
Patrick: February 11th, 2011. Today we’re chatting with the co-authors of a new book aimed at making your business faster, smarter and more social. This is the SitePoint Podcast #99: The Now Revolution with Amber Naslund and Jay Baer.
帕特里克： 2011年2月11日。今天，我们正在与一本新书的共同作者聊天，该书旨在使您的业务更快，更智能，更社交。 这是SitePoint播客＃99：Amber Naslund和Jay Baer的《现在的革命》。
Hello and welcome to another interview edition of the SitePoint Podcast. This is Patrick O’Keefe and I’m riding solo today as I interview Amber Naslund and Jay Baer. This is episode 99 of the SitePoint Podcast, which means we are just one episode away from the magic number of 100. In honor of this milestone we are hosting a special live episode of the SitePoint Podcast. We have some special things planned and we’d love to have you with us in the room interacting during the episode. We look forward to seeing you there.
您好，欢迎访问SitePoint播客的另一个采访版本。 这是帕特里克·奥基夫(Patrick O'Keefe)，今天我在采访Amber Naslund和Jay Baer时独自骑行。 这是SitePoint Podcast的第99集，这意味着我们离神奇的100集只有一集。为了纪念这一里程碑，我们将主持SitePoint Podcast的特别现场直播。 我们计划了一些特别的事情，很想让您和我们一起在剧集中进行互动。 我们期待着您的光临。
Amber Naslund is the Vice President of Social Strategy for social media monitoring platform Radian6. She is a frequent speaker and is the co-author of the blog Brass Tack Thinking which is at brasstackthinking.com. You can also find her on Twitter @ambercadabra. Jay Baer is the founder of social media strategy firm Convince and Convert. He is the author of the blog of the same name located at convinceandconvert.com. He is also a regular conference and event speaker and you can find him on Twitter @jaybaer. Together, Amber and Jay have co-authored a new book, The Now Revolution, which promises to help you learn the seven shifts that can make your company faster, smarter and more social, each explained with case studies, useful tips, and actionable implementation advice. Jay and Amber welcome to the show!
Amber Naslund是社交媒体监控平台Radian6的社交策略副总裁。 她经常发表演讲，并且是brasstackthinking.com 上的Brass Tack Thinking博客的合著者。 您也可以在Twitter @ambercadabra上找到她。 Jay Baer是社交媒体战略公司Convince and Convert的创始人。 他是位于confidenceandconvert.com 的同名博客的作者。 他还是定期的会议和活动发言人，您可以在Twitter @jaybaer上找到他。 Amber和Jay共同撰写了新书《 The Now Revolution》 ，该书将帮助您学习七个可以使您的公司更快，更智能，更社交的转变，并通过案例研究，有用的技巧和可行的实施方式进行解释。建议。 周杰伦和琥珀欢迎您参加表演！
Amber: Hey, how you doing? Thanks for having us Patrick.
琥珀色：嘿，你好吗？ 感谢您邀请我们Patrick。
Patrick: It’s great to have you on; we just had you on episode 88 of the podcast, the SitePoint Podcast, which was published November 18th and recorded in mid-October, so in about I guess a span of 12 episodes you’ve made two appearances so that’s pretty good.
帕特里克：很高兴您加入。 我们刚刚在11月18日发布并于10月中旬录制的Podcast播客的第88集中进行了录制，所以大约在12集中，您已经出现了两次，所以这很好。
Jay: It is good, but you know we’ve been pretty busy since then, so while it’s only 11 podcasts I feel like I’ve aged 11 years since then.
杰伊：很好，但是您知道我们从那以后一直很忙，所以虽然只有11个播客，但是我觉得我已经11岁了。
Amber: (Laughs)
琥珀色：(笑)
Patrick: Eleven weeks and 11 years.
帕特里克： 11周11年。
Jay: We’re operating in sort of dog time right now.
杰伊：我们现在正忙得不可开交。
Amber: Totally.
琥珀色：完全。
Patrick: Wow. So this actually might be the last interview you do!
帕特里克：哇。 所以这实际上可能是您最后一次面试！
Jay: It may be. It’s like Benjamin Button.
周杰伦：可能是。 就像本杰明·巴顿(Benjamin Button)。
Amber: Yeah, right, we’ve totally contemplated whether we should do the rest of our interviews and events from a beach in Mexico somewhere, so you know, maybe.
琥珀色：是的，是的，我们已经完全考虑过是否应该在墨西哥某处的海滩上进行其余的采访和活动，所以也许吧。
Patrick: Well, authors know that you can’t do that on book sales alone.
帕特里克(Patrick)：好吧，作者知道您不能仅靠图书销售来做到这一点。
Jay: You got that right.
周杰伦：你说对了。
Patrick: It’s a lot of work to get that money.
帕特里克：要赚到钱，需要很多工作。
Jay: You still have a job, right Patrick, just want to make sure you didn’t retire on the proceeds of—
杰伊：帕特里克(Patrick)，您还有一份工作，只是想确保您不会因以下原因而退休：
Patrick: Right, I didn’t retire on the many thousands of dollars that I made. But I feel like I need to put a disclosure at the front of the show here because I am briefly quoted in The Now Revolution and was proud to have been asked to do so, and I’ve lead conference panels with both of you and I like both of you a lot, I want the book to be very successful, and no I haven’t read it myself, knowing both of you as I do I feel confident in saying that I think it will be one of the most important books for this space that will be published this year. So my bias is clear and I guess let’s get started.
帕特里克：对，我并没有退休我赚到的数千美元。 但是我觉得我需要在节目的开头做一个披露，因为我在《现在的革命》中被简短引用，并为能被邀请而感到自豪，而且我已经主持了你们双方的会议小组。像你们两个人一样，我希望这本书非常成功，不，我自己也没有读过，因为我和我俩都认识，所以我有信心说我认为这将是最重要的书之一这个空间将在今年出版。 所以我的偏见很明确，我想让我们开始吧。
In looking at both of you in considering the interview I did something that I haven’t really done before, I don’t know if that’s good or bad, but I actually read both of your About Me pages and your LinkedIn profiles, all of it, and I found them both really interesting. First, Amber, I wanted to talk about your background a little bit. One of the things that jumped out at me was some of the earliest positions on your LinkedIn profile were charity related, titles like Endowment Campaign Manager, Director of Annual Giving, Director of Philanthropy; and I was curious what pushed you towards that space?
在考虑你们两个人在考虑面试时，我做了我以前从未真正做过的事情，不知道这是好事还是坏事，但实际上我同时阅读了您的“关于我”页面和您的LinkedIn个人资料，所有我发现他们俩都很有趣。 首先，琥珀，我想谈谈您的背景。 令我惊讶的一件事是，您在LinkedIn个人资料上的最早职位是与慈善相关的，例如捐赠运动经理，年度捐赠总监，慈善总监等职位。 我很好奇是什么促使您走向那个领域的？
Amber: That’s actually kind of an accidental story. I was actually a music major in college and my first love was the arts, so I got involved in non-profits because I was actually pursuing a career in arts administration. So the first work that I did with the Milwaukee Symphony was basically one of those “show up and give me a job, I don’t care what I have to do” kind of things, and they actually had an opening in the fund raising department. So, I didn’t have a professional background in that but I kind of learned in the trenches, and I very much fell in love with it, so the community building aspect, the volunteer management, you know it’s the soft side of communications and sales I guess for the non-profit industry, so I really enjoyed it.
琥珀色：这实际上是一个偶然的故事。 我实际上是大学音乐专业的学生，而我的初恋是艺术，所以我加入了非营利组织，因为我实际上是在从事艺术管理工作。 因此，我在密尔沃基交响乐团所做的第一项工作基本上就是“露面并给我一份工作，我不在乎我要做的事情”之类的东西，而实际上他们在募款方面有了空缺部门。 因此，我没有专业背景，但是我从in中学到了一些东西，而且我非常喜欢它，因此社区建设方面，志愿者管理方面，您知道这是沟通和沟通的软性一面。我猜是非营利行业的销售，所以我真的很喜欢。
Patrick: I hadn’t planned this question but I’m curious now, what does an arts administrator do?
帕特里克(Patrick)：我没有计划这个问题，但我很好奇，艺术管理员会做什么？
Amber: It’s mostly the operations behind what you would see in like for a symphony orchestra it’s the entire back-end of everything that happens outside of the performances, so it’s raising money for the organization, it’s developing educational programs; it’s all the logistics and operations for the concerts themselves, so it’s running the business side of being in the music industry.
琥珀色：主要是您在交响乐团中所看到的背后的运作，它是演出之外发生的所有事情的整个后端，因此它为组织筹集了资金，正在开发教育计划； 这是音乐会本身的所有后勤和运营，因此它正在经营音乐界的业务。
Patrick: Because art does have a business contrary to what some might think.
帕特里克：因为艺术的确与某些人的想法相反。
Amber: It does believe it or not, it really does.
琥珀色：它确实信不信由你，确实如此。
Patrick: Art needs the bills paid.
帕特里克：艺术需要付账单。
Amber: You got it.
琥珀色：你明白了。
Patrick: And then following that you transitioned into more of a traditional marketing position, and I noticed that your role as a marketing and communications director at one company ended, and then the very next month according to your LinkedIn profile you started blogging at Altitude Branding which is now Brass Tack Thinking, and then six months later you’re at Radian6. Is there an interesting story behind that transition from that traditional marketing role to blogger to a company that is really on the cutting edge of measuring the social media space?
帕特里克(Patrick)：然后您转变为传统的营销职位，我注意到您在一家公司担任营销和传播总监的职位结束了，然后根据您的LinkedIn个人资料，下个月开始在Altitude Branding博客现在是Brass Tack Thinking，然后六个月后，您进入Radian6。 从传统的市场营销角色过渡到博客作者，再到真正处于衡量社交媒体空间前沿的公司，背后是否有一个有趣的故事？
Amber: Yeah, well, interesting I suppose is subjective, but I can tell you how I got there. Doing the traditional marketing thing in a relatively traditional corporate world it was falling in love with the communications aspect of things all over again that I’d been doing for a long time, but really falling out of love with a lot of the really kind of staid, into my estimation— I was not an officially trained marketer so I took issue with a lot of the ways that “really good marketing” was done. And I cut my teeth on that position for a few years, but I really felt like there was something more, and I’ve always been involved in the online space even when I was doing fundraising stuff. I remember when it was really exciting that we were going to do online fundraising, and I was one of the big advocates for that. So the Web has always been a really important part of what I did, and I decided that I wanted to strike out on my own so that’s what you saw there was I quit my job, and I don’t recommend people do it the way I did it because I did without a plan. I literally woke up one morning and said I can’t do this anymore and I have a different idea, so I walked in on a Friday and quit and the following Monday I filed papers to incorporate my own business which was— Altitude Branding was actually a consultancy right out of the gate, and I was doing mostly communications and branding work because that’s what I knew very well. So I did that and that led into consulting work around the Web and social space, and Radian6 was actually one of my first clients, so several months later they picked me up as a full time employee.
Amber：是的，嗯，有趣，我想是主观的，但是我可以告诉你我是如何到达那里的。 在相对传统的企业环境中进行传统的营销活动时，我爱上了我很久以来一直在做的事情的传播方面，但实际上我对很多真正的事情已经不感兴趣了。根据我的估计，我不是一个受过正式训练的营销人员，所以我对许多“真正好的营销”方式的执行方式持怀疑态度。 我在这个职位上坚持不懈地工作了几年，但我确实感觉还有更多东西，即使我在筹款时，我也一直参与在线领域。 我记得当我们真的很高兴进行在线筹款时，我是为此的主要倡导者之一。 因此，Web一直是我所做工作中非常重要的一部分，因此我决定自己想脱颖而出，这就是你看到的我辞职的原因，并且我不建议人们这样做我这样做是因为我没有计划。 我实际上是在一个早晨醒来，说我不能再这样做了，所以我有一个不同的主意，所以我在一个星期五走进去，辞职了，在下一个星期一，我提交了一些文件来合并我自己的业务，那就是，Altitude Branding实际上是咨询公司，我主要从事沟通和品牌工作，因为这是我非常了解的。 因此，我这样做了，这导致了围绕Web和社交空间的咨询工作，而Radian6实际上是我的第一批客户之一，所以几个月后，他们选择让我成为全职员工。
Patrick: Cool story. So I think that you spoke to this a little bit, but how do you feel that that early background, accidental background in philanthropy, applies or has helped you grow Radian6 and helped people in general that perspective to navigate the social media landscape?
帕特里克：很酷的故事。 因此，我想您刚才说了一点，但是您觉得这种早期背景，慈善事业的偶然背景是否适用或帮助您发展了Radian6，并总体上帮助了人们用这种观点来浏览社交媒体格局？
Amber: Well, I think in my estimation the community of non-profits and fundraising is very much sort of online community 1.0, building those volunteer organizations and the relationships that you build with donors and the donor cultivation you do over the years is very much, I think, the principles on which I social media is taking root; it’s the idea that you’re there first to establish a relationship with somebody and get to know their purpose and why they care about your company and then the money comes later. And in for profit business we often turn that on its head and say buy from us first and then we’ll care about what you do. So there are a lot of underlying principles I think in the non-profit world that I think are still very, very consistent with the community building, the social media mindset and then mash that together with my love for technology and how I think it powers business and I think it’s actually quite a full circle transition.
Amber：好吧，我认为我认为非营利和筹款社区非常像一个在线社区1.0，建立那些志愿者组织，以及您与捐赠者建立的关系以及您多年来所做的捐赠者培养工作非常多，我认为，社交媒体已扎根的原则； 这是因为您首先要与某人建立关系并了解他们的目的以及他们为什么关心您的公司，然后才有钱。 在营利性业务中，我们经常将其转瞬即逝，说先从我们这里购买，然后我们会关心您的工作。 因此，我认为在非营利领域有很多基本原则，我认为它们与社区建设，社交媒体思维方式仍然非常非常一致，然后将其与我对技术的热爱以及我认为技术的力量融为一体我认为这实际上是一个完整的转变。
Patrick: Yeah, I think that’s a tremendous point. And really one of the things that I enjoy or have enjoyed about this social media online community, the people who work in this space, it’s a lot of terms, but people in general, the people who are really good at this stuff that have a lot of attention are also very approachable people that are very giving of their time, that share a lot of information such as you and Jay and just looking at the inside of your book and the advance praise you know obviously I see a lot of names here that are well known in this space, people I know and don’t know like Seth Godin and Chris Brogan and Scott Stratten, Maurice Smith and Mitch Joel and Scott Mauney, and so on. I don’t know; it just seems like a lot of professionals in this space are very approachable and easy to access even if they are at the top of the space.
帕特里克：是的，我认为这很重要。 在这个社交媒体在线社区中，我真正喜欢或享受的事情之一，就是在这个领域工作的人们，这是很多术语，但是总的来说，真正擅长于此工作的人们拥有很多人关注的事物也很平易近人，他们非常乐于奉献自己的时间，他们共享许多信息，例如您和杰伊，并且只是看书的内部和对您的赞美，显然，我在这里看到了很多名字在这个领域中众所周知的人，我认识和不认识的人，如塞思·戈丁(Seth Godin)和克里斯·布罗根(Chris Brogan)和斯科特·斯特拉滕(Scott Stratten)，莫里斯·史密斯(Maurice Smith)和米奇·乔尔(Mitch Joel)和斯科特·莫尼(Scott Mauney)，等等。 我不知道; 好像这个领域的很多专业人士都很容易接近，并且即使在这个领域的顶峰也很容易获得。
Amber: Yeah, that’s right. I think there’s very much a consistent thread of people who really get passionate about the potential for this kind of communication possess sort of the innate attributes in the people; we want to embody, we’re trying to embody the businesses that we want them to become so I think you’re on to something there actually.
琥珀色：是的，是的。 我认为确实有很多人对真正的热情充满热情，他们具有这种与生俱来的天性。 我们想体现出来，我们试图体现我们希望它们成为的业务，所以我认为您实际上正在从事一些工作。
Patrick: Excellent. So, Jay’s wondering “Why am I here?” So, Jay’s it’s your turn now. Now, Jay, you have a Bachelor’s in political science and I had Amber with philanthropy and political and generally I don’t know if people see those things as the same, as much as they should be, but when you were going to school and getting that degree what did Jay Baer want to be?
帕特里克：太好了。 因此，Jay想知道“我为什么在这里？” 所以，杰伊，现在轮到您了。 现在，杰伊，您拥有政治学学士学位，而我拥有慈善和政治学的安伯，通常我不知道人们是否认为这些东西应有尽有，但应该是在您上学和拿到那个学位，杰伊·贝尔(Jay Baer)想成为什么？
Jay: I originally set out to be a journalism major; I was gonna be Bob Woodward, that was the game plan, but took a college class, my very first college class, Intro to Political Science, and had an incredibly amazing teacher who taught us from a very well known book about political consulting from Larry Sabato from University of Virginia and it sort of turned my whole head around and was also the class where I met my future wife, so it was a very important class for me…
周杰伦：我最初打算是一名新闻专业的。 我本来是鲍勃·伍德沃德，那是游戏计划，但是我上了大学班，这是我的第一堂大学班，政治学概论，还有一位非常了不起的老师，他从一本非常著名的书中教我们了拉里的政治咨询来自弗吉尼亚大学的Sabato几乎使我全神贯注，也是我与未来的妻子会面的班级，因此对我来说这是非常重要的一堂课……
Patrick: Wow.
帕特里克：哇。
Jay: …and changed my major to political science and started in the political consulting realm, I started actually the summer after my freshman year, I started doing political consulting and campaign management. And what I liked about it very similar to what Amber said about philanthropy is that I liked retail politics, right, I liked the ability to win hearts and minds a few at a time, and I also loved the finality of campaigns. The day after the election you’re either super psyched or your super pissed, right, there’s really no— You’re never half elected and I love that part of it and I think that’s why ultimately I gravitated toward digital marketing and social media because you can keep score if you choose to do so, and of course we’ve got a lot of content in The Now Revolution about social media success metrics and tracking, and my background has been on that side of it for a long time.
杰伊(Jay)： …并将我的专业改为政治学，并进入了政治咨询领域，实际上我是大一新生后的那个夏天开始的，我开始进行政治咨询和竞选活动管理。 我喜欢它与Amber关于慈善事业的说法非常相似，就是我喜欢零售政治，对，我喜欢一次赢得几个人的思想的能力，而且我也喜欢竞选的终结性。 选举后的第二天，您要么神志不清，要么很生气，是的，真的没有。您永远都不会当选，我喜欢其中的一部分，这就是为什么我最终偏向数字营销和社交媒体的原因，因为您可以选择保留分数，当然，《 The Now Revolution》中有很多关于社交媒体成功指标和跟踪的内容，而我的背景已经有很长时间了。
Patrick: Cool. And there were a couple of other points in your bio which I thought would be of interest to all listeners, which are web developers, web designers, web masters, and so on, and the first was that you were VP of Marketing for Internet Direct and according to your bio they were the first virtual web hosting company. So in that role essentially from my perspective and quick reading of it we’re talking about the marketing of a brand new or relatively brand new surface, virtual web hosting.
帕特里克：酷。 在您的个人简历中还有其他一些要点，我认为所有听众都将感兴趣，这些听众是Web开发人员，Web设计师，Web管理员等，第一点是您是Internet Direct营销副总裁根据您的传记，他们是第一家虚拟网络托管公司。 因此，从我的角度并快速阅读该角色，我们实际上是在谈论全新的或相对全新的表面虚拟网站托管的营销。
Jay: Yeah, it was crazy.
杰伊：是的，这太疯狂了。
Patrick: Yeah, and at that time how did you set out to market web hosting to small to mid-businesses in those early days?
帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，那时候您是如何着手在早期将网络托管推向中小型企业的？
Jay: It was such a strange time, I mean we’re talking about ’93, ’94 and literally my partner in that business invented the partitioning algorithm which allowed you to run multiple domains on a single box, before that it was one server, one domain name, and so he figured out how to run multiple domains on a server and so we ended up being in the web hosting business and so I was the marketing and sales guy, and the challenge was at that point nobody even wanted a website, I mean you could almost not even give them away.
Jay：那真是一个奇怪的时刻，我的意思是，我们谈论的是'93，'94，从字面上看，我的合伙人发明了分区算法，该算法允许您在一台服务器上运行多个域。 ，一个域名，于是他想出了如何在服务器上运行多个域，于是我们最终从事了网络托管业务，所以我是市场营销和销售人员，当时的挑战是没人想要一个网站，我的意思是您几乎无法放弃他们。
Patrick: You could give these things away, websites, down the corner give away websites.
帕特里克(Patrick)：您可以放弃这些东西，网站，就在角落放弃网站。
Jay: The people who understood, even at the very, very early stage, where this was headed and the power of the Web would pay crazy money, right, because they just really built their whole business around it. So, we primarily sold on features because we could out-feature everybody else in the market because of the way our technology was set up, and so it really became I think our slogan for a while was ‘nothing not included’, so if you were — if you knew enough to know that you wanted a web hosting company we tried to be the best one out there.
杰伊：即使在很早的时候，人们就知道这是前进的方向，而网络的力量会付出疯狂的钱，对，因为他们只是真正围绕着它建立了整个业务。 因此，我们主要销售功能，因为我们可以通过技术设置来超越市场上其他所有人的功能，所以我认为一段时间以来我们的口号“不算什么”，因此，如果您是-如果您足够了解自己想要一家网络托管公司，我们将努力成为那里最好的公司。
Patrick: So obviously how most web hosting companies reach people in this day and age is through the Web.
帕特里克：显然，在当今时代，大多数网络托管公司如何通过网络吸引人们。
Jay: Yeah, it was not really an option for us actually.
杰伊：是的，实际上这实际上不是我们的选择。
Patrick: So I was curious, what, I mean obviously traditional advertising, business publications, newspapers; how did you go about kind of reaching those people and I guess what was most successful in the mid-90s?
帕特里克(Patrick)：我很好奇，我的意思显然是传统的广告，商业出版物，报纸； 您是如何与这些人接触的，我想90年代中期最成功的是什么？
Jay: We did quite a bit of print. So back in the day we did Internet World, Net Guide, Internet Week, PC Magazine, I ran a lot of full-page magazine ads back in the day. We did quite a bit of booth stuff at major Internet conferences back in that era, and then towards the end of my tenure at Internet Direct we just started to scratch the surface with any sort of online, in fact I bought the very first ad ever run on Ink.com, Ink Magazine’s website, and people sent me mean email for first sullying the content with an advertising banner, so I literally remember sitting there saying, hey, we could get this to animate, right, and like hey it’s a GIF-89A, check it out, we can have the mouse walk across the banner, and like the whole company walked into the office to see the mouse walk across the banner. It was an early days type of a circumstance.
周杰伦：我们做了很多印刷工作。 因此，在过去，我们制作了《 Internet World》，《 Net Guide》，《 Internet Week》，《 PC Magazine》，我在当天投放了很多整版杂志广告。 那个时代，我们在主要的互联网会议上做了很多摊位工作，然后在我在Internet Direct任职期结束时，我们才开始用各种形式的在线服务打起水漂，事实上，我买了有史以来的第一则广告在Ink杂志的网站Ink.com上运行，人们给我发了一封含蓄的电子邮件，首先要用广告横幅来骚扰内容，所以我确实记得坐在那儿说，嘿，我们可以对此进行动画处理，对，就像嘿，这是一个GIF-89A，请检查一下，我们可以让鼠标跨过横幅，就像整个公司走进办公室一样，看到鼠标跨过横幅。 这是一种早期的情况。
Patrick: (Laughs) It’s a great story. Well, do you remember what the first virtual web hosting cost?
帕特里克：(笑)这是一个很棒的故事。 好吧，您还记得第一次虚拟虚拟主机的费用吗？
Jay: We originally charged I think it was $189.00 a month, and that would be a plan that right now would be about $9.00 a month.
周杰伦：我们最初的收费标准是我认为这是每月189.00美元，这是一个计划，目前大约是每月9.00美元。
Patrick: Okay, okay, well that’s not too bad considering how the Internet deflation works.
帕特里克：好吧，好吧，考虑到互联网通缩是如何工作的，这还不错。
Jay: That’s right.
杰伊：是的。
Patrick: Not bad at all. In addition to being around during those exciting times you also have a background as a web publisher and as the co-founder of azfamily.com, which is a large local focused website, obviously Arizona, and it’s now owned by an independent television KTBK that’s based in Phoenix which was founded in the 1950s. According to your LinkedIn profile the website began in August of ’96 and I started messing around with the Web shortly thereafter and have a general sense of how different a place it was when it came to tools and available software. So, at that time when you were developing this website how did you or your team go about developing it, did you write everything, did you have to create everything; was it as difficult as I think it was?
帕特里克：一点都不差。 除了在那些激动人心的时刻到处走走之外，您还具有作为Web发布者和azfamily.com联合创始人的背景，azfamily.com是一个大型的本地化网站，显然是亚利桑那州，现在由独立电视台KTBK拥有，总部设在凤凰城，成立于1950年代。 根据您的LinkedIn个人资料，该网站于96年8月开始运营，此后不久我就开始搞乱网络，并且大致了解它在工具和可用软件方面的地位有何不同。 因此，当时您在开发此网站时，您或您的团队如何进行开发，编写了所有内容，是否必须创建了所有内容？ 是否像我想的那么难？
Jay: Oh, it was. It was crazy. And it was a terrific experience, it was a family owned media conglomerate, they had two TV stations, two magazines and two radio stations, and I sort of was the Internet guy. So we built the site azfamily.com to represent all of those other media outlets, and the smart thing that they did and that I made sure that we adhered to over the years was to have one site as opposed to six different sites, one for each magazine, one for each radio station, so you’re splitting your audience into very small pieces; we managed to get everybody to agree and put their egos aside to build one website. But we built the whole thing in Perl, the entire site was built in Perl with custom built CGI scripts, we built our own content management system, we built our own photo rotations, headline rotations, our own email distribution engine for email newsletters, actually did the initial very first IA, the very first site diagram I did on the back of a paper plate in my back room.
杰伊：哦，是的。 太疯狂了。 这是一次了不起的经历，它是一家家族媒体集团，他们有两个电视台，两个杂志和两个广播台，而我有点像互联网专家。 因此，我们建立了一个网站azfamily.com来代表所有其他媒体，而他们所做的聪明事以及我确保我们多年来坚持的做法是拥有一个网站，而不是六个网站，一个用于每本杂志，每个广播电台一本，因此您将听众分成了很小的一部分； 我们设法使所有人都同意，并将他们的自负放在一边以建立一个网站。 但是我们在Perl中构建了整个程序，整个站点都是在Perl中使用自定义的CGI脚本构建的，我们构建了自己的内容管理系统，构建了自己的照片旋转，标题旋转，我们自己的用于电子邮件新闻通讯的电子邮件分发引擎，进行了最初的第一个IA，这是我在我后房间的纸盘背面做的第一个站点图。
Patrick: Not even a napkin, with a paper plate.
帕特里克：甚至没有餐巾纸，也没有纸盘。
Jay: A literal paper plate, yep.
杰伊：是的，是纸质盘子。
Patrick: (Laughs) That’s funny. And as you walk through those tools I mean obviously it’s funny to think about it, and I recently was thinking about it with regard to the forum software space and I think how some people take it for granted because I was on Quora recently and I answered a few questions on there and it’s funny, I’ve spent too much time reading and answering questions to the extent of “Will X replace forums?”, “Is Quora the new forums?”, “Why haven’t forums done anything in the past 12 years?” Well, here’s the thing, like if you install forum software from 10 years ago and you install now you should see a tremendous difference, and the same is really true and it’s funny if you consider because even when I was coming up, so to speak, in the late ’90s and I started my really serious stuff in 2000, the tools out there, there just wasn’t much in the way of tools out there; I had static HTML pages, we didn’t have WordPress, we didn’t have anything like WordPress, this was back in the dark ages. And now you have things like CMS for WordPress or Drupal or Expression Engine, or whatever, and then you have all these email marketing suites, MailChimp, and so forth, and all these things people can sign up and have ready for free in about 10 minutes.
帕特里克：(笑)这很有趣。 当您浏览这些工具时，我的意思是显然地想到它很有趣，并且我最近在考虑论坛软件领域时就在考虑这个问题，并且我认为某些人是理所当然的，因为我最近在Quora上工作，我回答了那里有几个问题，这很有趣，我花了太多时间阅读和回答问题，以至于“ X会取代论坛吗？”，“ Quora是新论坛吗？”，“为什么论坛没有做任何事情？过去的12年？” 好吧，这就是事实，例如，如果您安装10年前的论坛软件而现在安装，您应该会看到很大的不同，这确实是正确的，并且考虑一下也很有趣，因为即使在我上台的时候，可以这么说，在90年代后期，我从2000年开始从事非常认真的工作，那里提供的工具，那里提供的工具很少。 我有静态HTML页面，没有WordPress，没有类似 WordPress的东西，那是在黑暗时代。 现在您有了类似WordPress或CMS或Drupal或Expression Engine之类的CMS之类的东西，然后您拥有了所有这些电子邮件营销套件，MailChimp等，所有这些东西人们都可以注册并免费准备在大约10天内使用分钟。
Jay: And I think about now, you know, we were doing probably three million pages a month on a site that was 100% homegrown CGI Perl spaghetti code, and to think that we even managed to keep that site online based on what has happened subsequently I look back on them, like I don’t even know how we did it, it’s really the world has changed so much. But, that’s the one thing about technology, right? Everything gets commoditized eventually, which is why so much of what we talked about in the book is not here’s how to operate this tool but here’s how to think about this strategically and have a plan for your business that’s actually tools agnostic because if you’re just chasing tools you’re always just chasing.
Jay：我想现在，您知道，我们每个月可能在一个100％本地CGI Perl意大利面条代码的网站上做300万页，并认为我们甚至根据发生的事情使该网站保持在线随后我回头看他们，就像我什至不知道我们是怎么做到的，这确实是世界已经发生了很大的变化。 但是，那是关于技术的一件事，对吗？ 最终，一切都变得商品化了，这就是为什么我们在书中谈论的太多不是这里是如何操作此工具的原因，而是这里是如何从战略上考虑这个问题并为您的业务制定计划的工具，而该计划实际上是不可知的工具，因为如果您只是追逐工具，您总是在追逐。
Patrick: Yeah, exactly. So you youngsters out there don’t take for granted what you have now as far as—
帕特里克：是的。 因此，您的年轻人不会认为您现在拥有的东西是理所当然的，
Jay: Exactly.
周杰伦：是的 。
Patrick: Did azfamily.com have any community or interactive features?
帕特里克： azfamily.com是否具有任何社区或互动功能？
Jay: Yeah, we had a lot of discussion boards and it was very much so, as you well know, one of the most successful areas of the site from a pageview generations perspective, I mean people who went into that section looked at an average of 13 pages a session or something like that, and people who didn’t go in that section looked at three, right, so a huge part of the stickiness of the site was all around the forums, and when I read your book it brought back a lot of memories both good and bad of those days. We had somebody one time threaten the life of an on-air talent in the discussion board, one of the TV anchors, and so the FBI came and like wanted our server logs and it was just crazy, crazy days. And I also remember sitting there working all night when we went to 2000, right, and making sure everybody was there in case the website blew up or the world ended; we’d have to be able to put the headline on, if it was Armageddon what would we do?
杰伊：是的，我们有很多讨论区，众所周知，这是该网站从页面浏览量世代角度来看最成功的领域之一，我的意思是，进入该部分的人平均来看一堂课共13页之类的内容，而没有参加该节的人则看了三遍，对了，所以网站粘性的很大一部分都围绕着论坛，当我读到你的书时，回忆了当年的好事和坏事。 我们曾经有人在讨论板上威胁某个广播人才的生命，其中一位是电视主持人，于是FBI来了，就像想要我们的服务器日志一样，那真是疯狂，疯狂的日子。 我还记得当我们进入2000年时整晚坐在那里工作，对了，确保每个人都在那里，以防网站爆炸或世界崩溃。 我们必须能够成为头条新闻，如果是世界末日大战，我们会怎么做？
Patrick: Yeah. “You’re now reading this from a bunker; hopefully you have a good connection on that AOL dialup.” That’s funny. And how large of an operation was it when you left, I know you mentioned three million pageviews a month, but as far as staff?
帕特里克：是的。 “您现在正在从一个地堡里读这本书； 希望您在该AOL拨号网络上拥有良好的联系。” 那很好笑。 当您离开时，该操作的规模有多大，我知道您提到一个月要进行300万次网页浏览，但是就员工而言呢？
Jay: We ran it super lean, we had two pieces of business, azfamily was a local contents site and then we also were a web design firm and built sites for other companies in Arizona. When I left I think we had about 20 people, 22, something like that, so not very big.
周杰伦：我们超级精干，我们经营两家公司，azfamily是一个本地内容网站，然后我们也是一个网页设计公司，并为亚利桑那州的其他公司建立了网站。 当我离开时，我认为我们大约有20个人，22个人，大概不是很大。
Patrick: Wow. Yeah, that’s pretty good though for a website local focused that was started locally and run for four years and I guess sold later.
帕特里克：哇。 是的，虽然对于在本地启动并运行了四年的以本地为中心的网站来说，这是相当不错的，但我想以后会卖掉。
Jay: Yep. Sold to Belo; the whole operation was, not just the site but the whole conglomerate, all the TV stations and the magazines and radio stations were sold to Belo Corporation, which own the Dallas Morning News and a lot of other things, for $350 million or something crazy, of which I saw nothing.
杰伊：是的 。 卖给贝洛； 整个业务不仅是整个网站，而且是整个企业集团，所有电视台，杂志和广播电台都以3.5亿美元(约合人民币3亿元)的价格卖给了拥有达拉斯晨报和许多其他东西的贝洛公司(Belo Corporation)，我什么都没看见。
Patrick: Just to be clear. So let’s talk about the book. Amber, how did The Now Revolution come together, did one of you have the idea for it and then contact the other, did Wiley bring you together; how did the whole process kick off?
帕特里克：只是要清楚。 因此，让我们来谈论这本书。 琥珀色， 《现在的革命》是如何融合在一起的？你们中的一个人对它有想法，然后又与另一个人联系了吗？ 整个过程是如何开始的？
Amber: Well, the famous story is really that Jay and I had both been independently contemplating writing books. And I know that Jay had been talking to the inimitable Scott Stratten for a long time and Scott is a Wiley author and was nice enough to put in a plug for us at Wiley. And I have a couple of friends who were authors over there as well so they had been kind enough to recommend me, so the forces just kind of aligned really well, and Jay was thankfully more persistent and aggressive than I was at the time and he approached me and said I want to write this book but I don’t want to do it alone. And he and I seemed to think along very similar lines with a lot of stuff, we have some different approaches to things but our philosophies are very similar, so he came to me and said I want to write this book and will you write it with me and I said sure. So we put in a proposal and Wiley was crazy enough to tell us that they’d publish it, so I really have to credit Jay with getting the ball rolling here on something that I think we’d both been wanting to do but he had the gumption to actually take the next step.
琥珀色：嗯，著名的故事确实是杰伊和我俩一直在独立考虑写作。 而且我知道杰伊已经与无与伦比的斯科特·斯特拉滕(Scott Stratten)交谈了很长时间，斯科特(Scott)是威利(Wiley)的作家，很高兴为我们在威利(Wiley)插上了插头。 我也有几个朋友在那里写文章，所以他们很友善地向我推荐，所以这些力量真的很好地融为一体，而且杰伊还比我当时更坚定和进取，他走近我说我想写这本书，但我不想一个人做。 而且他和我似乎在很多事情上都以相似的方式思考，我们对事物有不同的方法，但是我们的理念非常相似，所以他来找我，说我想写这本书，你会和他一起写吗？我和我说肯定。 因此，我们提出了一项建议，而Wiley却疯狂地告诉我们他们将其发布，因此我真的要感谢Jay将事情推到了这里，我认为我们俩都想做，但是他有真正迈出下一步的勇气。
Patrick: And for the collaborative writing process, well I should ask first, I guess you guys wrote the book together at the same time, right?
帕特里克(Patrick)：在协作写作过程中，我首先要问，我想你们是同时写这本书的，对吗？
Amber: Yeah, we used Google Docs.
琥珀色：是的，我们使用了Google文档。
Patrick: Yeah, what tools did you use and how did you efficiently write together?
帕特里克：是的，您使用了哪些工具，以及如何有效地一起编写？
Amber: Well, we weren’t really heavy on the tools, I mean Google Docs came in handy for a lot of the writing and the editing stuff because it was in a central spot, but we got together one day in Arizona and I was out there for some business or whatever, so Jay and I holed up in a room at his old agency for a few hours one day and hammered through an outline and came up with what we thought were the central themes of the book, and we literally divided the books straight down the middle and went off to our respective corners and wrote our faces off and then we traded. So we handed each other the work that we’d done and we edited, added stuff to it, asked questions or whatever, and built on each other’s work, and we went through that similar process a few times throughout the editing; that seemed to work okay for us.
琥珀色：好吧，我们并没有真正使用这些工具，我的意思是Google Docs在很多写作和编辑工作中都派上了用场，因为它处于中心位置，但是我们有一天在亚利桑那州聚会了，在那里出去做生意或做些什么，所以杰伊和我一天在他老公司的一个房间里呆了几个小时，敲定了轮廓，提出了我们认为是本书的中心主题的东西，将书直接从中间分开，走到我们各自的角落，写下我们的脸，然后进行交易。 因此，我们将完成的工作交到彼此，然后进行编辑，向其中添加内容，提出问题或进行其他操作，并以彼此的工作为基础，并且在整个编辑过程中我们经历了类似的过程； 这对我们来说似乎还可以。
Patrick: Yeah, it’s just interesting for me as an author and I think other people who write with others in general because there are different approaches. I think I read Chris Brogan say something about how he scheduled time with a co-author and they wrote at the same time in the same Google Docs so things would be changing but you’re both sitting in there and writing at the same time, and that does seem a little chaotic but it can work for some I would say.
帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，作为作者，这对我来说很有趣，我认为其他与其他人一起写作的人也有不同的做法。 我想我读过克里斯·布罗根(Chris Brogan)关于他如何安排与共同作者的时间的话，他们在同一时间在同一份Google文档中写东西，所以情况可能会有所变化，但是你们都坐在那儿并同时写作，这似乎有些混乱，但是我可以说它可以工作。
Amber: Well, I’m sure if it works for somebody that’s awesome. (laughs)
琥珀色：好吧，我确定它是否对很棒的人有用。 (笑)
Jay: Yeah, I don’t think it would work for us, and we tend to write differently, a different process as well. When we put the book together we each wrote like almost literally the exact same number of words in this book, it’s crazy how it worked out like that, but I figured okay my system is going to be I’m going to write some everyday so I wrote 1,000 words for 21 straight days or something like that, and Amber is much more of a passionate writer, as anybody who’s read her blog can attest, she’s got that it means a lot to her, not that it doesn’t mean a lot to me, but she wears her heart and her beliefs on her sleeve and that’s what makes her such a powerful author. And so Amber sort of when she feels it is like okay here’s 6,000 words, it’s like blah!, just like rushes it out and then doesn’t write until she feels it again, and I’m much more sort of robotic and I just turn on the computer and just write and I’m like okay I’m done for today and that’s it. So, because we’re so different in that regard it would’ve been really, really difficult for us to literally co-author at the same time the way Brogan and Julian Smith do.
杰伊：是的，我认为这对我们不起作用，而且我们倾向于采用不同的方式编写不同的流程。 当我们把这本书放在一起时，我们每个人几乎都写成几乎完全相同的单词数，这真是太疯狂了，但是我发现好了，我的系统将是我每天都要写一些，所以我连续21天或类似的时间写了1000个单词，而Amber则更像一个热情的作家，任何阅读她的博客的人都可以证明，她知道这对她来说意义非凡，但这并不意味着这对我来说很重要，但是她的内心和对袖子的信念令她成为如此有力的作家。 因此，Amber觉得这就像6,000字一样好，就像是在说！ ，就像把它赶出去然后直到她再次感觉到之前才写一样，而且我更像是一种机器人，我只需要打开计算机并写东西，就可以了。而已。 因此，因为我们在这方面有很大的不同，所以我们真的很难，真的很难像Brogan和Julian Smith那样同时共同创作。
Amber: Yeah.
琥珀色：是的。
Patrick: Yeah, that was a really nice way to say Amber doesn’t write on a schedule. (laughs)
帕特里克：是的，这是说Amber不在时间表上写的一种非常好的方法。 (笑)
Amber: Yeah, it’s true. Well, he’s absolutely right that I don’t; I actually do really poorly when I try to force myself into writing mode, I’ll sit there and stare at a blank screen. So if I know I have a deadline I don’t blow deadlines but whether that’s 1 o’clock in the morning or 11 o’clock in the morning or whether it’s one hour or a four-hour marathon stretch of writing I just sort of have to tap into it when it hits me, and I don’t work really well on the whole prescribed daily words thing, and so everybody’s got to find what works for them and it managed to all come together in the end.
琥珀色：是的，是的。 好吧，我绝对不正确。 当我试图强迫自己进入写作模式时，我实际上做得很差，我坐在那里盯着黑屏。 因此，如果我知道我有最后期限，那么我并没有规定最后期限，但是无论是早上1点还是早上11点，还是马拉松一小时还是四小时，我都会说必须在它打到我时加以利用，而我在规定的日常用词方面并不能很好地工作，因此每个人都必须找到对他们有用的东西，最后一切都归结在一起。
Patrick: The subtitle for The Now Revolution is “7 Shifts to Make Your Business Faster, Smarter and More Social”. And just out of curiosity did you come up with that?
帕特里克(Patrick)： “现在的革命”的副标题是“使您的业务更快，更智能，更社交的7个转变”。 只是出于好奇，您想到了吗？
Jay: (Laughs)
周杰伦：(笑)
Amber: (Laughs)
琥珀色：(笑)
Jay: That’s a question that doesn’t have a neat and tidy answer.
杰伊：这个问题没有一个整洁的答案。
Patrick: (Laughs) Okay, I was just curious because I know with my publisher my subtitle was not fully me I will say.
帕特里克：(笑)好吧，我只是好奇，因为我知道我和出版商的副标题不是我要说的。
Jay: I would say that’s probably true in our case as well.
杰伊：我想在我们的情况下也是这样。
Patrick: Okay, okay. But there are the 7 shifts, and obviously the book will go into more detail, but just to give us an idea of the contents can you give kind of a quick summary of what the 7 shifts are and Amber maybe you can go first and then you can alternate.
帕特里克：好的，好的。 但是有7个班次，很显然这本书会更详细，但是只是为了给我们一个内容的概念，您可以简要概述一下7个班次是什么，而Amber也许您可以先走然后再谈您可以选择。
Amber: Sure, we can do that. I don’t even know how we came up with seven, I think we just decided we’d come up with as many as we needed until we were done.
琥珀色：当然，我们可以做到。 我什至不知道我们怎么想出七个，我想我们只是决定要想出尽可能多的东西，直到完成。
Patrick: You were in Vegas at the time and needed a lucky number.
帕特里克：您当时在拉斯维加斯，需要一个幸运号码。
Amber: Yeah, maybe so, I am not lucky in Vegas. But the first one for us was about culture shift and the importance of — I think the reason we put that first is because we feel it’s really super important to have culture, mindset and intent sort of set out and all agreed upon before you can really move on any of the strategic or tactical stuff, so that was the first place we started.
琥珀色：是的，也许是这样，我在拉斯维加斯并不幸运。 但是对我们而言，第一个问题是关于文化转变及其重要性的-我认为我们之所以把它放在首位，是因为我们认为拥有文化，思维方式和意图并在您真正达成共识之前达成共识真的非常重要继续进行任何战略或战术工作，因此这是我们开始的第一站。
Jay: The second one is all about creating a group of people within your company that you can trust and that social media makes hiring and staffing different than it has been in the past, that you’d have to have different people on your team and they have to really be a team, so we have a whole section on personnel and HR.
杰伊：第二个问题是关于在公司内部创建一个您可以信任的人员，并且社交媒体使招聘和人员配备与以往不同，您必须在团队中拥有不同的人员，并且他们必须真正地成为一个团队，所以我们有一整节有关人员和人力资源的内容。
Amber: Right. And the third section actually builds off that one pretty seamlessly and talks about how to organize those teams, so once you’ve actually got people in place that are either in part or wholly focused on doing social media work how exactly do you organize them in a way that helps that scale across your organization and define some functions and bridge the gap between taking social media from a siloed function in a department to actually bringing it across borders and getting some collaborative work involved there, so that’s shift 3.
琥珀色：对。 第三部分实际上无缝地构建了该团队，并讨论了如何组织这些团队，因此，一旦您真正聘请了部分或全部致力于社交媒体工作的人员，您将如何准确地组织他们一种方法可以帮助您在整个组织中扩展规模并定义一些功能，并弥合部门中孤立的社交媒体功能，使其真正跨界，并参与其中的一些协作工作之间的鸿沟，这就是转变3。
Jay: Shift 4 is all about listening which of course is endemic in the social media world, but we sort of take a different tact on it and talk about specifically what should you be listening for, what are the methods that you can use to tap into conversations about your company or about your brand and then the different types of listening programs that can be put into place in different companies based on their size and needs. So we show different models for setting up listening teams and then what to do with that information; one of the problems that I think is really widespread in social media as we talk today is that people have access to all this information and then they have no idea what to do with that, right, it’s not — data gathering and learning is not the same thing so we tried to give people a success path for that.
Jay： Shift 4的全部目的是倾听，这当然是社交媒体世界中的地方病，但我们对此采取了不同的态度，并专门讨论了您应该听什么，可以使用哪些方法来进行挖掘进行有关您的公司或品牌的对话，然后根据规模和需求在不同的公司中实施不同类型的听力计划。 因此，我们展示了用于建立侦听团队的不同模型，以及如何处理这些信息。 我认为，今天我们谈论的社交媒体中确实普遍存在的问题之一是，人们可以访问所有这些信息，然后他们不知道该怎么做，对，不是吗？数据收集和学习不是同样的事情，所以我们试图为人们提供成功的途径。
Amber: Right, and then we actually talk about, in the realm of what to do with that information; shift 5 actually talks about emphasizing the ability for your company to respond when necessary and actually get out there. The term that’s bandied about in social media is ‘engaging’ but we talk about it from several different perspectives about contributing content to participating to actually harvesting stories internally in social media to empower other employees to actually be able to be those kind of spontaneous spokespeople and unofficial marketing armies, so we talk a little bit about empowering everybody to have a voice and to be responsive when companies need them to be in a realtime business situation.
琥珀色：是的，然后我们实际上在讨论如何处理这些信息。 班次5实际上是在强调您的公司在必要时做出回应并真正站出来的能力。 社交媒体中经常使用的术语是“参与”，但我们从几种不同的角度来谈论它，即在社交媒体内部参与实际收获故事的过程中贡献内容，以使其他员工实际上能够成为那种自发的发言人和非官方的营销队伍，所以我们谈谈授权每个人都有发言权，并在公司需要他们处于实时业务状况时做出响应的能力。
Jay: The sixth shift is what happens when you do that and it all goes horribly wrong.
杰伊：第六种转变是当您这样做时会发生的一切，这一切都非常糟糕。
Amber: (Laughs)
琥珀色：(笑)
Jay: Which is the section that Patrick is quoted in, it’s all about social media crisis management and how to handle that and what to do about it and how to make sure it doesn’t occur but if it does what to do next. As we say in the outset of that chapter, “We hope it’s the chapter that you never have to read, but if you do have to read it, it will quickly become your favorite chapter in the whole book.”
杰伊：引用了帕特里克(Patrick)的那一部分，内容全都涉及社交媒体危机管理，如何处理危机，如何处理以及如何确保它不会发生，但是如果接下来要做，该怎么做。 正如我们在本章开头所说的那样：“我们希望这是您永远不必阅读的章节，但是如果您必须阅读它，它将很快成为整本书中您最喜欢的章节。”
Amber: Yep. And the last one is tackling one of everybody’s favorite topics in social media, which is measurement and metrics, so we sort of try to break down that beast into some clear guidelines for what types of goals you can realistically set for your social media activity and then how to decide which metrics and measurements might actually point you toward whether or not you’re being successful. So, we take the big hairy beast of social media measurement and boil it down into a way to sort of pick and choose some very top-line basic metrics that’ll get you where you need to go.
琥珀色：是的 。 最后一个是解决社交媒体中每个人最喜欢的主题之一，即度量和指标，因此我们尝试将这头野兽分解为一些明确的准则，以明确您可以为社交媒体活动实际设置的目标类型以及然后如何决定哪些指标和度量可能实际上将您引向您是否成功。 So, we take the big hairy beast of social media measurement and boil it down into a way to sort of pick and choose some very top-line basic metrics that'll get you where you need to go.
Patrick: So you talk a little bit, or a lot I should say, about I guess empowering individuals within your company to confidently answer questions themselves online or wherever. And part of that, and I probably know where both of you stand on this and so I just want to just throw it out there anyway, but the idea, the discussion of individuals within companies building brands while at the company that are stronger, or then the company and they take those brands with them, I mean at this stage that ship has sailed, right, is that a part of the shift of The Now Revolution?
Patrick: So you talk a little bit, or a lot I should say, about I guess empowering individuals within your company to confidently answer questions themselves online or wherever. And part of that, and I probably know where both of you stand on this and so I just want to just throw it out there anyway, but the idea, the discussion of individuals within companies building brands while at the company that are stronger, or then the company and they take those brands with them, I mean at this stage that ship has sailed, right, is that a part of the shift of The Now Revolution?
Was that a bad question? Did I say that wrong? It felt like it came out really wrong!
Was that a bad question? Did I say that wrong? It felt like it came out really wrong!
Jay: It’s a great question; I’ll let Amber take the first crack at it because she was a community manager so sort of lived that circumstance.
Jay: It's a great question; I'll let Amber take the first crack at it because she was a community manager so sort of lived that circumstance.
Amber: Yeah, I mean I think that’s sort of the inevitability I guess of what’s happened online mostly because the days of the official spokesperson really are over, and I’m not sure that they ever really existed as much as we thought that they did, but it was an idea that we really liked to perpetuate. And so nowadays it’s just that we’ve given our employees things like the phone and we’ve given them email and we’ve empowered them with information about our businesses and we want them to be ambassadors for what we do, so it’s a sensible, I think, evolution to empower positions like community managers or even unofficial community managers in the sense that I tend to think that people in companies that are passionate about their role or passionate about their work or passionate about their customers are sort of defacto community managers; salespeople have a community of customers that they service, customer service people have that same community in a different capacity. Even internally people have communities that they need to foster, so I think those kinds of— I think that ideal of having people be able to be nimble and responsive to the needs of a company they’re accelerated by the speed of the Web right now, but I think they’ve always been sort of lurking there and now the Web is a catalyst for making sure that we have to be able to react at speed to those kinds of opportunities.
Amber: Yeah, I mean I think that's sort of the inevitability I guess of what's happened online mostly because the days of the official spokesperson really are over, and I'm not sure that they ever really existed as much as we thought that they did, but it was an idea that we really liked to perpetuate. And so nowadays it's just that we've given our employees things like the phone and we've given them email and we've empowered them with information about our businesses and we want them to be ambassadors for what we do, so it's a sensible, I think, evolution to empower positions like community managers or even unofficial community managers in the sense that I tend to think that people in companies that are passionate about their role or passionate about their work or passionate about their customers are sort of defacto community managers; salespeople have a community of customers that they service, customer service people have that same community in a different capacity. Even internally people have communities that they need to foster, so I think those kinds of— I think that ideal of having people be able to be nimble and responsive to the needs of a company they're accelerated by the speed of the Web right now, but I think they've always been sort of lurking there and now the Web is a catalyst for making sure that we have to be able to react at speed to those kinds of opportunities.
Patrick: Yeah, it’s funny you talk about giving them the phone and email, it’d be funny if every large company picked one person and took away their telephone and email for a month and then said ‘do work’.
Patrick: Yeah, it's funny you talk about giving them the phone and email, it'd be funny if every large company picked one person and took away their telephone and email for a month and then said 'do work'.
Amber: Right.
Amber: Right.
Patrick: The Amazon.com product description for the book says that, “The Now Revolution isn’t about how to do social media, instead it outlines how you must retool your organization to make realtime business work for you rather than against you.” So it sounds to me as though this book is really strongly a book about the culture of your organization, is that fair?
Patrick: The Amazon.com product description for the book says that, “The Now Revolution isn't about how to do social media, instead it outlines how you must retool your organization to make realtime business work for you rather than against you.” So it sounds to me as though this book is really strongly a book about the culture of your organization, is that fair?
Jay: Well, certainly it’s about the culture substantially, but it’s also about the mechanics; we talk a lot about how to create task forces and armies within your company, how to deploy those people, so there’s a lot of HR organizational process, how to make this actually work day-to-day type of insight in the book, but it’s certainly not a here’s the best way to get re-tweet kind of a book.
Jay: Well, certainly it's about the culture substantially, but it's also about the mechanics; we talk a lot about how to create task forces and armies within your company, how to deploy those people, so there's a lot of HR organizational process, how to make this actually work day-to-day type of insight in the book, but it's certainly not a here's the best way to get re-tweet kind of a book.
Patrick: Right, so there’s some do in there, right?
Patrick: Right, so there's some do in there, right?
Jay: Oh, there’s a lot of do, it’s just not hands-on keyboard do, it’s much more the book is for people who are owners, high-level executives or people on the HR side, directors, managers to be like okay I’ve got all these employees, more on the way, how do we actually operationalize social media, which I was reticent to say that because Amber hates that word…
Jay: Oh, there's a lot of do, it's just not hands-on keyboard do, it's much more the book is for people who are owners, high-level executives or people on the HR side, directors, managers to be like okay I've got all these employees, more on the way, how do we actually operationalize social media, which I was reticent to say that because Amber hates that word…
Amber: (laughter)
Amber: (laughter)
Jay: …but that’s really what we’re talking about, right; how do we take social media from wow, neat, nifty, and make it an integral part of what this business does day-to-day, and that’s why we wrote the book and that’s why we hope that the book is just as valuable five years from now as we think it is today because we tried to put something out there that doesn’t necessarily have a shelf life.
Jay: …but that's really what we're talking about, right; how do we take social media from wow, neat, nifty, and make it an integral part of what this business does day-to-day, and that's why we wrote the book and that's why we hope that the book is just as valuable five years from now as we think it is today because we tried to put something out there that doesn't necessarily have a shelf life.
Patrick: Speaking of culture, I love that you cited ThinkGeek as an example within the book, largely for the culture they have as a group; Amber, what put them on your radar and why are they so special?
Patrick: Speaking of culture, I love that you cited ThinkGeek as an example within the book, largely for the culture they have as a group; Amber, what put them on your radar and why are they so special?
Amber: Well, I don’t know, there’s an affinity for all of us nerds in this space to love things like what ThinkGeek does. Personally I really want to get— I think it’s ThinkGeek that has this; it’s like a frame for your iPad that’s like an Etch A Sketch.
Amber: Well, I don't know, there's an affinity for all of us nerds in this space to love things like what ThinkGeek does. Personally I really want to get— I think it's ThinkGeek that has this; it's like a frame for your iPad that's like an Etch A Sketch.
Patrick: Awesome. I actually just saw that the other day, it’s funny.
帕特里克：太棒了。 I actually just saw that the other day, it's funny.
Amber: So very cool. But they just really live and breathe that idea of imparting the culture of your organization into every single individual person, so part of what we cited in the little, brief case study was the fact that one of their first interview questions for new employees is whether they prefer Star Wars or Star Trek. And so even the way that they vet potential employees is true to their sort of mindset, their spirit, their personality, and so right out of the gate they’re sort of guaranteeing that they at least get people there who have the right mindset and place first. You can train for skills and you can train for capabilities but you can’t really train mindset, and so they’ve really embodied that idea of bringing the right people onto the bus, as Jim Collins would say, and then empowering them with the information and tools they need to do their jobs but they’re all kind of on the same page to start with.
Amber: So very cool. But they just really live and breathe that idea of imparting the culture of your organization into every single individual person, so part of what we cited in the little, brief case study was the fact that one of their first interview questions for new employees is whether they prefer Star Wars or Star Trek. And so even the way that they vet potential employees is true to their sort of mindset, their spirit, their personality, and so right out of the gate they're sort of guaranteeing that they at least get people there who have the right mindset and place first. You can train for skills and you can train for capabilities but you can't really train mindset, and so they've really embodied that idea of bringing the right people onto the bus, as Jim Collins would say, and then empowering them with the information and tools they need to do their jobs but they're all kind of on the same page to start with.
Patrick: And the Etch A Sketch iPad case is $39.99 on Thinkgeek.com. They also have an iPhone version for $24.99.
Patrick: And the Etch A Sketch iPad case is $39.99 on Thinkgeek.com. They also have an iPhone version for $24.99.
Amber: Man, that’s so cool, my visa card is cringing in my wallet right now.
Amber: Man, that's so cool, my visa card is cringing in my wallet right now.
Patrick: And maybe the coolest thing about is that the back of it is actually a mock of what was on the back of the Etch A Sketch, the little black ridges and all that stuff on the back.
Patrick: And maybe the coolest thing about is that the back of it is actually a mock of what was on the back of the Etch A Sketch, the little black ridges and all that stuff on the back.
Amber: No kidding? God, see that’s so cool. (laughs)
Amber: No kidding? God, see that's so cool. (laughs)
Jay: That really is awesome.
Jay: That really is awesome.
Patrick: Yeah, I actually found a Christmas present for my brother on there last year. He plays the game BioShock and if you’re familiar with that game, which I’m sure some of the listeners are, they have an actual syringe on there from the game like a prop within the game they’re selling it, and yeah, so you could spend hours on that website.
Patrick: Yeah, I actually found a Christmas present for my brother on there last year. He plays the game BioShock and if you're familiar with that game, which I'm sure some of the listeners are, they have an actual syringe on there from the game like a prop within the game they're selling it, and yeah, so you could spend hours on that website.
Now, I have some familiarity with forums and I found a quote on page 149 that was interesting, speaking in relation to crisis management you write that “An FAQ page without a discussion forum runs contrary to the expectations of today’s customers/reporters.” And forum in that usage is really meant to imply any open space where people can discuss an issue. Why is it important to not only make statements about a crisis but also to allow for open discussion that can obviously be rather unflattering? Jay.
Now, I have some familiarity with forums and I found a quote on page 149 that was interesting, speaking in relation to crisis management you write that “An FAQ page without a discussion forum runs contrary to the expectations of today's customers/reporters.” And forum in that usage is really meant to imply any open space where people can discuss an issue. Why is it important to not only make statements about a crisis but also to allow for open discussion that can obviously be rather unflattering? Jay.
Jay: Well, I think we feel that people care about companies and how they behave and ways that they historically have not, and the Web gives them the opportunity to do so. People want to see the sausage being made now, and things happen so quickly that if you say alright we’re just going to make a statement about what’s gone on and not allow anybody to respond to that statement in an official capacity; they’re still going to respond but it’s going to be in a public forum where you have no ability to control, right, so if you don’t give people what we call the pressure release valve where they can actually comment on your blog post or comment on your Facebook discussions tab or some other mechanism that you create then they’re going to take it to the public social web, your wall or Twitter or somewhere else where you really have a much harder time of corralling that sentiment. So we feel like if you give people something they say, look, we have set up this opportunity for you to interact with us and complain or vent or kvetch, or whatever else you want to do, then at least you have some semblance of opportunity to keep your arms around it.
Jay: Well, I think we feel that people care about companies and how they behave and ways that they historically have not, and the Web gives them the opportunity to do so. People want to see the sausage being made now, and things happen so quickly that if you say alright we're just going to make a statement about what's gone on and not allow anybody to respond to that statement in an official capacity; they're still going to respond but it's going to be in a public forum where you have no ability to control, right, so if you don't give people what we call the pressure release valve where they can actually comment on your blog post or comment on your Facebook discussions tab or some other mechanism that you create then they're going to take it to the public social web, your wall or Twitter or somewhere else where you really have a much harder time of corralling that sentiment. So we feel like if you give people something they say, look, we have set up this opportunity for you to interact with us and complain or vent or kvetch, or whatever else you want to do, then at least you have some semblance of opportunity to keep your arms around it.
Patrick: And in that kind of circumstance is there room for some sort of guidelines for the discussion, some sort of policies for interaction or is it should just let them say anything or is there room for some structure?
Patrick: And in that kind of circumstance is there room for some sort of guidelines for the discussion, some sort of policies for interaction or is it should just let them say anything or is there room for some structure?
Amber: Oh, heck, we believe very strongly in structure. (laughs) It’s not a matter of— I think sometimes we can go too far to the edge of saying, oh, don’t police it because then it’s over-contrived, but I think the problem is that’s not really a realistic approach for most companies to take and actually scale that because it’s not so much a matter of telling people what they can’t do as a matter of empowering them with what they can do, so everybody understands the rules of engagement. So we think guidelines and policies are actually really important, and we talk very much about those in shift 5 and what we think some of the key elements should be in those guidelines to help people understand the lay of the land because they’re an important tool for businesses who want to take this beyond just one or two people in their organization.
Amber: Oh, heck, we believe very strongly in structure. (laughs) It's not a matter of— I think sometimes we can go too far to the edge of saying, oh, don't police it because then it's over-contrived, but I think the problem is that's not really a realistic approach for most companies to take and actually scale that because it's not so much a matter of telling people what they can't do as a matter of empowering them with what they can do, so everybody understands the rules of engagement. So we think guidelines and policies are actually really important, and we talk very much about those in shift 5 and what we think some of the key elements should be in those guidelines to help people understand the lay of the land because they're an important tool for businesses who want to take this beyond just one or two people in their organization.
Patrick: The final section of the book deals with ROI online. Amber, what are some examples of the right and wrong things that people track?
Patrick: The final section of the book deals with ROI online. Amber, what are some examples of the right and wrong things that people track?
Amber: I had the chance to go into the right and wrong discussion because that one gets dicey. But I think the most important thing is to first understand what your aim is in the first place, so we talk about social media goals either aligning with awareness or sales or loyalty and making sure that the metrics you track line up to those types of goals. So if awareness is something that you’re after, metrics like reach or spread of information can actually be important indicators, but they may not be important indicators in terms of loyalty for your customers. So if you’re talking about customer loyalty you’ll want to track things like referrals or average transaction value over time and things like that. So, I think the important thing is understanding that we get caught up in a lot of these ideas, counting people like marbles or bottle caps or what have you because they’re easily accessible metrics and they’re very obvious ones to us.
Amber: I had the chance to go into the right and wrong discussion because that one gets dicey. But I think the most important thing is to first understand what your aim is in the first place, so we talk about social media goals either aligning with awareness or sales or loyalty and making sure that the metrics you track line up to those types of goals. So if awareness is something that you're after, metrics like reach or spread of information can actually be important indicators, but they may not be important indicators in terms of loyalty for your customers. So if you're talking about customer loyalty you'll want to track things like referrals or average transaction value over time and things like that. So, I think the important thing is understanding that we get caught up in a lot of these ideas, counting people like marbles or bottle caps or what have you because they're easily accessible metrics and they're very obvious ones to us.
Patrick: Twitter followers.
Patrick: Twitter followers.
Jay: Yeah, exactly.
Jay: Yeah, exactly.
Amber: Yeah, exactly, that kind of thing. It’s so easy to get hung up on those things, but the really valuable information comes when you take those social media metrics and smash them together with other data points in your business that tell you something different.
Amber: Yeah, exactly, that kind of thing. It's so easy to get hung up on those things, but the really valuable information comes when you take those social media metrics and smash them together with other data points in your business that tell you something different.
Patrick: So in other words tying these things to actual business goals.
Patrick: So in other words tying these things to actual business goals.
Amber: You got it. And Jay is like the goal master in that sense, he’s really, really good at laying that out and he did a lot of the work on that chapter, so I should actually shut up and let him talk here.
Amber: You got it. And Jay is like the goal master in that sense, he's really, really good at laying that out and he did a lot of the work on that chapter, so I should actually shut up and let him talk here.
Jay: Well, I mean the challenge is there are so many different potential success metrics in social media and they’re circumstantial by definition, right. What your goals and objectives are in social media will in fact dictate which success metrics make sense for you, but the trick is to understand what it is that you are measuring at the business level and then find appropriate success metrics within social that help model that desired behavior. What happens in reality far too much now is that companies create a social media program and then decide to start tracking it ex-post facto, so you end up with this statistical gerrymandering where they say, well, what can we get our hands on from a data standpoint, let’s try and make that fit into our sort of narrative of how this program is supposed to be going, which clearly leads to poor decision making.
Jay: Well, I mean the challenge is there are so many different potential success metrics in social media and they're circumstantial by definition, right. What your goals and objectives are in social media will in fact dictate which success metrics make sense for you, but the trick is to understand what it is that you are measuring at the business level and then find appropriate success metrics within social that help model that desired behavior. What happens in reality far too much now is that companies create a social media program and then decide to start tracking it ex-post facto, so you end up with this statistical gerrymandering where they say, well, what can we get our hands on from a data standpoint, let's try and make that fit into our sort of narrative of how this program is supposed to be going, which clearly leads to poor decision making.
Patrick: I think in some ways it’s easier to make the case for The Now Revolution with large companies, but I believe that the small outfits, one to three people, represent such a great opportunity for growth and not just for book sales but growth in the space as a whole. And so how do you make the case for The Now Revolution to those people, the smaller entrepreneurs with small businesses that are short on time, Amber?
Patrick: I think in some ways it's easier to make the case for The Now Revolution with large companies, but I believe that the small outfits, one to three people, represent such a great opportunity for growth and not just for book sales but growth in the space as a whole. And so how do you make the case for The Now Revolution to those people, the smaller entrepreneurs with small businesses that are short on time, Amber?
Amber: I actually think that to your point they have a huge opportunity mostly because they don’t have to reverse engineer processes or people or structure points of the business that actually might be a hindrance to this kind of agility. So in that sense it’s definitely an advantage; for the small businesses they’re going to have to get comfortable with the idea of doing a little bit of multitasking and that they are the community manager and the person who does the analytics and the person who does the listening, and they’re just going to have to do as much as they can. I guess it’s important to start somewhere as opposed to trying to do all of it all at once, much like we learned to adapt to email or the Web and incorporate that into our workflow in our business, we’re just going to need to learn to adapt social media into that workflow as well. So I think small businesses have a huge opportunity to start doing that from the ground up without upending too much of what’s already existing in their business.
Amber: I actually think that to your point they have a huge opportunity mostly because they don't have to reverse engineer processes or people or structure points of the business that actually might be a hindrance to this kind of agility. So in that sense it's definitely an advantage; for the small businesses they're going to have to get comfortable with the idea of doing a little bit of multitasking and that they are the community manager and the person who does the analytics and the person who does the listening, and they're just going to have to do as much as they can. I guess it's important to start somewhere as opposed to trying to do all of it all at once, much like we learned to adapt to email or the Web and incorporate that into our workflow in our business, we're just going to need to learn to adapt social media into that workflow as well. So I think small businesses have a huge opportunity to start doing that from the ground up without upending too much of what's already existing in their business.
Jay: Yeah, right. And so much of social media is about humanization and storytelling and building kinship, and small companies have a natural advantage in that regard because they’re so much closer to the customer, right, they understand the customer circumstance, the customer reality, much moreso than big companies do that have layers and layers of management. And so what we sometimes say is that social media lets big companies feel small again, but it gives small companies a natural advantage.
Jay: Yeah, right. And so much of social media is about humanization and storytelling and building kinship, and small companies have a natural advantage in that regard because they're so much closer to the customer, right, they understand the customer circumstance, the customer reality, much moreso than big companies do that have layers and layers of management. And so what we sometimes say is that social media lets big companies feel small again, but it gives small companies a natural advantage.
Patrick: Excellent. Well Jay, Amber, that’s all I have. Thank you for coming on today and I really hope that the book is a huge success for both of you and I’m confident that it will be.
帕特里克：太好了。 Well Jay, Amber, that's all I have. Thank you for coming on today and I really hope that the book is a huge success for both of you and I'm confident that it will be.
Jay: Thanks very much. We were happy to do this and we’ll do it again 11 podcasts from now, just mark us in (laughter).
Jay: Thanks very much. We were happy to do this and we'll do it again 11 podcasts from now, just mark us in (laughter).
Amber: Yeah, you can just put us on the regular calendar. No, truly, thank you.
Amber: Yeah, you can just put us on the regular calendar. No, truly, thank you.
Patrick: Live from South by Southwest.
Patrick: Live from South by Southwest.
Amber: Right, right, there you go.
Amber: Right, right, there you go.
Patrick: Thanks guys. Once again that was Amber Naslund and Jay Baer, the co-authors of the new book The Now Revolution. You can find out more at nowrevolutionbook.com and you can pick it up wherever books and ebooks are sold. We’ll have links in the show notes to all related websites.
Patrick: Thanks guys. Once again that was Amber Naslund and Jay Baer, the co-authors of the new book The Now Revolution. You can find out more at nowrevolutionbook.com and you can pick it up wherever books and ebooks are sold. We'll have links in the show notes to all related websites.
Thank you for listening to the SitePoint Podcast. I am Patrick O’Keefe of the iFroggy Network and I blog at managingcommunities.com. You can find me on Twitter @ifroggy. You can follow my usual co-hosts Brad Williams, Kevin Yank and Stephan Segraves @williamsba, @sentience and @ssegraves respectively. You can follow SitePoint @sitepointdotcom.
Thank you for listening to the SitePoint Podcast. I am Patrick O'Keefe of the iFroggy Network and I blog at managingcommunities.com . You can find me on Twitter @ifroggy . You can follow my usual co-hosts Brad Williams, Kevin Yank and Stephan Segraves @williamsba , @sentience and @ssegraves respectively. You can follow SitePoint @sitepointdotcom .
Do you have any thoughts about this interview? Please visit us at sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. Email podcast@sitepoint.com if you have any questions for us, we’d love to read them out on the show and give you our advice. This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad. Thank you for listening and don’t forget to attend our special live 100th episode, visit sitepoint.com/podcast for details. We’ll see you then.
Do you have any thoughts about this interview? Please visit us at sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. Email podcast@sitepoint.com if you have any questions for us, we'd love to read them out on the show and give you our advice. This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad. Thank you for listening and don't forget to attend our special live 100th episode, visit sitepoint.com/podcast for details. 那我们见。
Theme music by Mike Mella.
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翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-99-the-now-revolution-with-amber-naslund-amp-jay-baer/
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