By Claire Evans
克莱尔·埃文斯(Claire Evans)
Jaime Levy’s real name is not Jaime. She won’t tell me what her real name is, only that her parents named her after a Beatles song, and that she hates the Beatles — wishes they’d never existed — and so she’s Jaime, a nod to Van Halen, of all things, and the bionic woman, Jaime Sommers, her “idol” when she was just a punk kid growing up in the haze of Los Angeles’ San Fernando Valley. Jaime Levy is, in all things, self-made. And when what she wants doesn’t exist, she makes that, too.
J aime Levy的全名不是Jaime。 她不会告诉我她的真实姓名，只有一个甲壳虫乐队的歌曲后，她的父母给她取名，和她讨厌披头士-希望他们从来没有存在的-所以她海梅，点头范海伦，所有的事物，以及仿生女人Jaime Sommers，她是个“偶像”，当时她只是一个在洛杉矶圣费尔南多谷阴霾中成长的朋克小子。 在所有方面，Jaime Levy都是自制的。 当她想要的东西不存在时，她也会做到。
As a graduate student at New York University’s Interactive Telecommunications Program in the early years of New York’s new media renaissance, she figured magazines would go electronic soon enough; in 1990, she started publishing her own interactive floppy disks, point-and-click magazines full of sound collages, rants, gig reviews, and games. The zines Cyber Rag and Electronic Hollywood made her famous in the emerging cyberculture, and when the web finally caught up, she adapted her DIY interaction design to online publishing, becoming creative director of Word.com, one of the first magazines to properly make use of the new medium’s affordances. Word was scene-altering: The first time the New York Times ran a feature on web browsers, it used Word as its example site, and even the Netscape browser had a button pointing straight to it (the button was labeled “What’s Cool?”). The site’s icon-rich design, heavy with streaming audio, experimental layouts, and interactive experiences, was so ahead of its time that it had a tendency to crash browsers.
在纽约新媒体复兴的初期，她是纽约大学交互式电信计划的研究生，她认为杂志很快就会成为电子产品。 1990年，她开始发行自己的交互式软盘，点击式杂志，里面满是声音拼贴，咆哮，演出评论和游戏。 电子杂志《 Crag Rag》和《 电子好莱坞》在新兴的网络文化中声名famous起，当网络终于流行起来时，她将自己的DIY交互设计改编为在线出版，成为了Word.com的创意总监， Word.com是最早使用的杂志之一新媒介的能力。 Word改变了场景：《 纽约时报 》首次在网络浏览器上运行一项功能，它使用Word作为其示例站点，甚至Netscape浏览器也有一个直接指向它的按钮(该按钮被标记为“ What's Cool？”。 )。 该网站具有丰富图标的设计，并带有流音频，实验性布局和交互式体验，因此其时代已经超前，以至于有可能使浏览器崩溃。
In those days, unmistakable with bleached-blond hair and a mouth as unfiltered as her hand-rolled cigarettes, Levy called herself the “biggest bitch in Silicon Alley,” a grunge prophetess of new media who wasn’t afraid to make waves, or make money. Her clients were rock stars — a floppy disk she created for Billy Idol’s 1993 Cyberpunk album was the first interactive press kit — and corporate giants alike. Samsung once hired her to create the “Malice Palice,” a dystopian chat room modeled after a post-Fall San Francisco, full of drug-pushing zombie bots and radioactive burritos. Silicon Alley, New York’s media-centric analogue to the Bay Area’s entrepreneurial internet boom, was her playground; Many East Village artists saw the web for the first time in Levy’s Avenue A loft, on a Mac II a hacker friend connected to a 28k internet connection.
在那些日子里，利维(Levy)像漂白的头发一样清晰，嘴巴像她手卷烟一样未经过滤，因此称自己为“硅胡同中最大的ch子”，这是新媒体的肮脏预言家，不惧怕掀起波澜，或者挣钱。 她的客户是摇滚明星，她为Billy Idol 1993年的Cyberpunk专辑制作的软盘是第一个交互式新闻资料袋，公司的巨头也是如此。 三星曾经雇用她创建了一个“反恶意派聊天室”(Malice Palice)，该聊天室仿照旧金山后的秋天，里面装满了推毒的僵尸机器人和放射性卷饼。 她的游乐场是纽约以媒体为中心的，类似于湾区创业互联网热潮的硅巷。 许多东村的艺术家第一次在Levy的Avenue A阁楼中看到了网络，在Mac II上，黑客朋友与28k互联网连接。
At the tail end of the dot-com bubble, she was the CEO of a “production studio for the internet” called Electronic Hollywood, where she created interactive toys for major clients and authored a 16-episode Flash cartoon called Cyberslacker about life in New York’s IPO-fueled “trendy freakout.” As one of Silicon Alley’s most visible media darlings, she crashed along with the stock market in 2000, landing back in L.A., where she now teaches UX strategy at USC’s Viterbi School of Engineering.
在互联网泡沫的尾声中，她是一家名为“ 电子好莱坞 ”的“互联网制作工作室”的首席执行官，在那里她为主要客户制作了互动玩具，并创作了一部名为Cyberslacker的16集Flash动画，讲述新生活。约克的IPO推动了“怪胎怪胎”。 作为“硅谷小巷”最引人注目的媒体宠儿之一，她于2000年随股票市场崩盘，回到了洛杉矶，现在她在南加州大学维特比工程学院教授UX策略。
Tell me about being a teenager in L.A. in the ’70s.
告诉我关于70年代在洛杉矶的少年时代。
I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, and the two big things that shaped my teenage years happened when I was about 13: my parents split up, and I was obsessed with skateboarding. I’d ride to school, or I’d just ride to the 7-Eleven, hanging out with the guys, trying to be cool. And then at the same time, this idiot named Judge Paul Egly decided to enforce this thing called forced busing. So instead of going to the school really close to my house, I had to wake up at 6 a.m. and catch a bus and go to school in Crenshaw. I was bullied on the bus; I was literally the only girl. I spent two years there, and it gave me a very hard shell, but it also exposed me to hip hop music and break dancing. By the time I got back to being a ninth-grade “Valley Girl,” I was not the same person.
我在圣费尔南多谷(San Fernando Valley)长大，影响我少年时代的两件大事发生在我13岁左右：父母分家了，我痴迷滑板运动。 我会骑车去学校，或者我只是骑车去7-11，和家伙们出去玩，努力变得很酷。 然后，与此同时，这个名叫保罗·埃格利(Paul Egly)法官的白痴决定强制执行这件事，即强制公共汽车。 因此，我没有去真正靠近我家的学校，而是不得不在早上6点醒来，乘公共汽车去Crenshaw上学。 我在公共汽车上被欺负了。 我实际上是唯一的女孩。 我在那里呆了两年，它给了我非常坚硬的外壳，但同时也使我接触了嘻哈音乐和霹雳舞。 当我回到九年级的“山谷女孩”时，我已经不是同一个人了。
When did you find punk rock? Was that a big thing for you?
你什么时候找到朋克摇滚的？ 这对您来说是一件大事吗？
Huge. Just as I was starting high school, I had my first job at the UA6 movie theater. These were more street-smart kids, and they dragged me to a party where I heard The Specials, and ska music, and became obsessed — so obsessed with The Specials that I decided that one day if I had a son, I would name him Terry, after Terry Hall. And we know I have a son named Terry.
巨大。 刚上高中时，我在UA6电影院找到了第一份工作。 这些是比较聪明的孩子，他们把我拖到一个聚会上，在那里我听见Specials和ska音乐，然后变得痴迷-痴迷于Specials，以至于我决定有一天我要生一个儿子，我会给他起名字特里(Terry Hall)之后。 而且我们知道我有一个叫特里的儿子。
Then you left L.A. to go study film in San Francisco.
然后，您离开了洛杉矶去旧金山学习电影。
I immediately moved to the lower Haight and started working at Skates on Haight. Within a year, the Mac came out and I started using a computer. More importantly, I was exposed to this thing called video art. I started shooting video, and back then it was all about getting access to edit bays, which was a huge deal. You either had to intern for a film or TV company or go to a college with a proper film and video department like SF State or NYU to get access to editing suites. San Francisco State was great because I got to be around artists who were experimenting with technology just for the sake of it.
我立即移至海特河下游，开始在海特的冰鞋工作。 一年之内，Mac出现了，我开始使用计算机。 更重要的是，我接触了所谓的影像艺术。 我开始拍摄视频，那时一切都是关于访问编辑托架的，这是很重要的。 您要么必须在电影或电视公司实习，要么要去拥有诸如SF State或NYU之类的适当电影和视频部门的大学才能访问编辑室。 旧金山州立大学很棒，因为我必须和那些为了技术而尝试技术的艺术家在一起。
‘The disks were game-changing multimedia, because I think people saw a glimpse of what the web would be.’
磁盘是改变游戏规则的多媒体，因为我认为人们看到了网络的概况。
Lynn Hershman Leeson ran the multimedia Inter-Arts Center when you were a student at SF State. Was she an influence on your work?
当您还是SF State的学生时， Lynn Hershman Leeson 运营着多媒体跨艺术中心。 她对您的工作有影响吗？
She was the most famous person there, so for sure. She brought in John Sanborn and all these other video artists. And it seemed to me the hippest thing, because I wasn’t going to make straight-up television. I was producing a lot of videos for public access. Filming [live, in-studio musical performances for] everyone from Faith No More to The Beatnigs. There was so much performance art and video art and experimental stuff in San Francisco, and you could live there for no money. I think the room I rented in some big Victorian was $120 a month. I’m so happy I got to experience San Francisco before it turned into the shithole tech bro place that it is now. Back then it was just all about burritos and experimental art.
她是那里最有名的人，所以可以肯定。 她带来了约翰·桑伯恩 ( John Sanborn)和所有其他视频艺术家。 在我看来，这是最时髦的事情，因为我不打算直接制作电视。 我制作了许多可供公众访问的视频。 为[Faith No More]到[Beatnigs]的每个人拍摄[现场录音室音乐表演]。 旧金山有太多表演艺术，录像艺术和实验性物品，您可以在那里生活而无需花钱。 我想我在一些维多利亚时代的大房子里租的房间每月120美元。 我很高兴能在旧金山变成现在的粪便科技之乡之前体验旧金山。 那时，这全都与墨西哥卷饼和实验艺术有关。
When did you start integrating computer animation into your film and video work?
您何时开始将计算机动画集成到电影和视频作品中？
Around my third or fourth year. I met this guy who had an Amiga, and he was making these animated e-zines, but he was mostly uploading them to a BBS, and the content would be things like his penis animated — it was just shock stuff. But the idea of integrating animation with the video… it was kind of a free-for-all, where you could do something that no one had done before. And then I saw this LaserDisc that was part of a museum exhibit. It was [an interactive video artwork] by Grahame Weinbren, and it was about two famous 19th-century texts, Goethe’s Erlkönig and one about the dreams analyzed by Sigmund Freud. But you could basically control the narrative by touching the screen or clicking around. I saw that and I was like, this is all I want to do with my life now.
我大约三年级或四年级。 我遇到了一个拥有Amiga的家伙，他正在制作这些动画的电子杂志，但他主要是将它们上传到BBS，内容就像是他的阴茎动画一样-简直是令人震惊的东西。 但是将动画与视频集成的想法……这是一种免费的服务，您可以做以前没有人做过的事情。 然后我看到了这个LaserDisc，它是博物馆展览的一部分。 它是格雷厄姆· 温布伦 (Grahame Weinbren)创作的[交互式视频艺术作品]，涉及歌德的《 埃尔克尼格》(Erlkönig)和19世纪的两个著名著作，以及西格蒙德·弗洛伊德(Sigmund Freud)分析的梦想。 但是您基本上可以通过触摸屏幕或单击四处来控制叙述。 我看到了，我当时想，这就是我现在想要做的一切。
Interactivity.
互动性。
Interactivity with video and storytelling. And someone said, “Oh well there’s this program within the graduate film school at NYU.” This was before the web, obviously, so I had to look it up on microfiche at the SF State library. I was too afraid that they wouldn’t let me in, so I decided I would just bum-rush the school. I went there just before Christmas break and it was snowing and I just walked in. I had bleached white hair. They saw me, and they were like, “What’s this person doing here?”
与视频和故事互动。 有人说：“哦，纽约大学研究生电影院里有这个程序。” 显然，这是在网络上发布的，所以我不得不在SF State Library的缩微胶片上查找它。 我太害怕他们不会让我进来，所以我决定我只会狂欢学校。 我正好在圣诞节休息前去那里，下雪了，我才走进去。我漂白了白头发。 他们看到了我，就像：“这个人在这里做什么？”
You eventually talked your way into a full ride at NYU’s Interactive Telecommunications Program.
您最终在纽约大学的“互动电信计划”中畅所欲言。
I told them I couldn’t afford to go there, but that I wanted to do things with technology that no one else had done. The program was full of people paid for by Citibank to design ATM interfaces. I was pretty much the first artist. Now if you go there, it’s totally evolved into the school I wish it had been when I was there, but it doesn’t matter, because it was the only place in the world where they would let you do what you wanted to do with technology.
我告诉他们我负担不起去那里的费用，但是我想用其他人没有做过的技术来做事情。 该计划挤满了花旗银行为设计ATM接口而付钱的人。 我几乎是第一位艺术家。 现在，如果您去那里，它完全演变成了我希望在那里的那所学校，但这并不重要，因为它是世界上唯一让他们做您想做的事的地方技术。
Cyber Rag, one of the first electronic magazines to be released on floppy, was your master’s thesis at ITP.
Cyber Rag是最早在软盘上发行的电子杂志之一，它是ITP的硕士论文。
I learned graphic design by doing interface design. I look at Cyber Rag now and I see interactive concepts in there that I think are actually kind of interesting today: buttons that swap in and out or animate across on the screen, which is totally unacceptable for a product that’s decidedly not a game. It was in black and white, and I was stealing art from Love and Rockets, and sampling all these noise bands — it was everything about art and technology and music and storytelling and me jammed onto a floppy disk. It was so distilled, in terms of bandwidth. I didn’t think I would ever finish it because the idea of compressing all that and making it play off a floppy was stupidly ambitious. I was so far ahead of my time, for better and for worse, so I had to send the disk out to all the magazines that I respected, like Mondo 2000 and High-Performance magazine, and the editors would get them and they’d look at them and they’d be like, “What the fuck is this?” And then they’d stick it in their computer and it would explode with all this content, and then they’d write about it.
我通过进行界面设计学习了图形设计。 我现在看一下《 Cyber Rag》 ，我发现其中的交互式概念今天确实很有趣：在屏幕上可以进出交换或动画显示的按钮，这对于绝对不是游戏的产品来说是完全不可接受的。 它是黑白的，我从“ 爱与火箭”那里窃取艺术作品，并采样所有这些噪音带-这是关于艺术，技术，音乐和讲故事的一切，我被卡在软盘上了。 就带宽而言，它是如此提炼。 我认为我永远都不会完成它，因为压缩所有内容并使它在软盘上播放的想法非常雄心勃勃。 无论好坏，我都遥遥领先于我，所以我不得不将磁盘发送给我所尊敬的所有杂志，例如Mondo 2000和High-Performance杂志，编辑们会得到它们，然后看着他们，他们会想，“这到底是什么？” 然后他们将其粘贴在计算机中，并且所有这些内容都会爆炸，然后他们对此进行撰写。
You distributed the disks in bookstores and record stores, rather than at computer meetups. I love this intuition you had to go straight to the non-computer people. Because even though it was a technological object, Cyber Rag wasn’t for the technoculture.
您将磁盘分配在书店和唱片店中，而不是在计算机聚会中。 我喜欢这种直觉，您必须直接与非计算机人员接触。 因为即使是技术对象，Cyber Rag也不适合技术文化。
It wasn’t for nerds. I was using the technology, but I was making it for Gen X-ers, and Gen X-ers weren’t nerds yet. They didn’t even own computers. At best they had the Mac Plus or the Mac SE, so that’s what I made Cyber Rag for. I went to all the hipster bookstores and galleries and said, “Here’s 10.” I couldn’t demo them, but I fronted them and then they sold out. People went gaga over them because no one had seen anything like it, and they were only six bucks. Eventually I sold thousands. The disks were game-changing multimedia, because I think people saw a glimpse of what the web would be.
不是给书呆子的。 我使用的是技术，但我是为X-ers一代使用的，而X-ers一代还不是很喜欢。 他们甚至没有电脑。 充其量是他们拥有Mac Plus或Mac SE，所以这就是我制造Cyber Rag的目的。 我去了所有时髦的书店和画廊，说：“这是10岁。” 我无法演示它们，但我在它们前面放了，然后他们卖光了。 人们为他们加油打气，因为没人能看到这样的东西，他们只有六美元。 最终我卖了成千上万。 磁盘是改变游戏规则的多媒体，因为我认为人们对网络将会有所了解。
What did you bring to interactive media that nobody else could have brought?
您为互动媒体带来了其他任何人都无法带来的东西？
Fearlessness. I’m that person that got beat up so much in junior high and just didn’t give a shit, who could walk into a school and say, “I want to come here.” Insanity, relentlessness. That’s how I am when I set my mind to something. This despite the fact that I’m a girl and I don’t code. I could communicate with developers. Before the UX methodology existed, my way of communicating interactivity to programmers was by writing out experiences as “scenes.” I would literally write things like a screenplay: screen one, this is what can happen. Life was fine for me before wireframing became this mandated tool for expression.
无所畏惧。 我就是那个在初中就被殴打了那么多的人，只是不屑一顾，他可以走进一所学校，说：“我想来这里。” 精神错乱，无情。 当我下定决心时，就是这样。 尽管我是女孩，但我不编码，但事实并非如此。 我可以与开发人员交流。 在UX方法论存在之前，我与程序员交流交互性的方法是将经验写为“场景”。 我会像剧本一样写东西：屏幕一，这是可能发生的。 在网络成帧成为此强制性表达工具之前，生活对我来说很好。
Can you tell me about your CyberSlacker parties?
您能告诉我您的CyberSlacker派对吗？
Oh my god. What’s sad is that it was before digital cameras. It would have been way too lame to pull out a camera at one of these events because they were so cool. The first party, Phiber Optik — he was a hacker who went to jail — came over and hooked my Mac II up to probably the first 28k connection to the internet out of the East Village. I had this big ass two-story loft in the East Village. Part of the party was to show all these people the internet. They’d come to the loft, and it would be alcohol and drugs, but imagine you could go over there and see the web for the first time, and here’s DJ Spooky playing. We were all partying and hanging out and talking about tech-driven art. It was all these interdisciplinary people coming together. We did the parties at the loft for as long as we could stand it, because they just grew. It was always about people bringing their computer stuff to show off, and trying to get the East Village scene up to speed with tech.
哦，我的上帝。 令人遗憾的是那是在数码相机出现之前。 在这些事件之一中，拿出相机实在太la脚了，因为它们太酷了。 第一方Phiber Optik(他曾是一名入狱的黑客)走了过来，将我的Mac II连接到了East Village的第一个28k互联网连接上。 我在东村有一个大屁股的两层阁楼。 聚会的一部分是向所有这些人展示互联网。 他们会来阁楼，那里是酒和毒品，但想像一下您可以第一次去那里看网络，这是DJ Spooky的表演。 我们都参加聚会和聚会，谈论技术驱动的艺术。 所有这些跨学科的人们聚集在一起。 我们在阁楼上参加派对的时间尽可能长，因为他们刚刚成长。 人们总是带着自己的计算机产品来炫耀，并试图使East Village的场景与技术同步。
‘I was basically making websites offline.’
“我基本上是在使网站离线。”
When did you start designing for the web? Did you get it right away?
您什么时候开始为网络设计的？ 你马上知道吗？
Immediately. I was working at IBM as an interface designer and there was barely anything for us to do there. One day, my friend Kevin showed me the Mosaic browser and I just — no bullshit — walked out. I just saw a home page and I was like, “That’s my disk online.” I turned in my notice and I went home and found the one guy in New York who knew HTML and had him teach me.
立即。 我在IBM担任界面设计师时，几乎没有什么可以做的。 有一天，我的朋友凯文(Kevin)向我展示了Mosaic浏览器，然后我-没胡扯-走了出来。 我刚刚看到一个主页，然后说：“那是我的磁盘在线。” 我上交通知书，然后回家，在纽约找到了一个懂HTML并请他教我的人。
It seems a lot of people in New York saw the web and realized that what you had been doing was making websites offline. They came to you because you were the established person in a field that didn’t even exist yet.
似乎很多纽约人看到了Web，并意识到您一直在做的事情是使网站脱机。 他们之所以来找您，是因为您是这个领域中尚未建立的人。
I never heard it put that way. But yeah, I was basically making websites offline. Razorfish and Word.com both came at me at once. Word was like, “We want you to be our creative director and we have $1 million.” Whereas Razorfish was like, “We’re going to make websites and you’re going to get paid in equity and be a third partner of this company.” Those were my two choices at that point. I went with Word, which was total freedom. We were the place [online] where people could come every day and see a new story that was nonlinear, with an ambient soundtrack. Every day a new technology would come out that we could leverage, like the ability to stream audio, or the ability to have an animated gif. Imagine!
我从没听过那样说。 但是，是的，我基本上是在使网站离线。 Razorfish和Word.com都立刻来到我身边。 有人说：“我们希望您成为我们的创意总监，我们有100万美元。” 而Razorfish就像是：“我们将建立网站，您将获得权益报酬，并成为该公司的第三位合伙人。” 那时候我是两个选择。 我选择了Word，这是完全的自由。 我们是人们每天都能来的[在线]地方，看到一个新的故事，这个故事是非线性的，带有环境声带。 每天都会出现一种我们可以利用的新技术，例如流音频的功能或动画gif的功能。 想像！
After the collapse of the dot com bubble and 9/11, you came back to Los Angeles and reinvented yourself. What were those early years in L.A. like?
在互联网泡沫破灭和9/11崩溃之后，您回到了洛杉矶并重新发明了自己。 洛杉矶的早年是什么样的？
Horrifying. It was so bad. If I went on a job interview and if I was to pull out, “Here’s all my press from New York,” that did not go over well. Saying you were CEO of a dot-com company was not a good way to pitch yourself at that time. And because I didn’t have a portfolio of deliverables, like wireframes or site maps, I barely supported myself. I detoured to DVD authoring and design, but the only place that would hire me was a porn place. For six weeks, my job was basically to scrub through videos looking for the cum shots. To be making minimum wage in a shitty part of the Valley timecode logging pornography… I fell pretty hard.
太恐怖了 太糟糕了 如果我接受工作面试，如果我要退出，“这是我从纽约来的全部新闻”，那说得并不顺利。 当时说你是一家互联网公司的首席执行官并不是一个好主意。 而且因为我没有线框或站点地图之类的可交付成果包，所以我勉强支持自己。 我绕道去DVD创作和设计，但是唯一雇用我的地方是色情场所。 六个星期以来，我的工作基本上是浏览视频以查找附带的照片。 为了在硅谷时间码记录色情的卑鄙的部分中获得最低工资，我陷入了沉重的困境。
You had been like a rock star in New York.
你就像纽约的摇滚明星一样。
And a party girl. I think the farther you fall, the harder you land. But finally my then-husband had a friend who was an information architect and I was like, “What’s that?” And he told me, and I’m like, “Oh, you mean it’s a structure of a website, this thing I’ve been doing in my head for 15 years? You just draw some lines on some paper and some boxes and arrows?” I decided I’m just going to become whatever this IA/UX/UI thing is.
还有一个派对女郎。 我认为您跌得越远，就越难降落。 但是最后我的丈夫有了一个信息架构师的朋友，我当时想：“那是什么？” 然后他告诉我，我想：“哦，您的意思是这是一个网站的结构，我在脑子里干了15年了？ 您只是在纸上画一些线，一些框和箭头？” 我决定我将成为IA / UX / UI的对象。
How did you find your way into UX strategy?
您是如何找到UX策略的？
I had already been doing strategy my entire career. I strategized how and what the products would be, dealt with the client, wrote the proposals, so all of a sudden I thought, “Oh, instead of being told what the product is, I could be put in room full of stakeholders who all have very different opinions, and figure out how to get a shared vision, how to build consensus.” After doing software design for decades, I knew exactly how the internet works and how content works. It was a new thing that I could learn about and fall in love with, and I’m still in love with it. I love strategy and especially how strategy intersects with user experience design. Why make a bunch of wires and argue with colleagues and stakeholders about the “look and feel?” I think I just got burnt out on subjectivity: “Ooh, I like this ’cause I like purple more than pink.” No, everything can be tested.
我已经在整个职业生涯中都做了策略。 我制定了战略计划，将如何与产品打交道，与客户打交道，并撰写了建议书，于是我突然想到：“哦，与其被告知产品是什么，我还可以被放到所有利益相关者的房间里意见截然不同，并弄清楚如何达成共识，如何建立共识。” 在进行了数十年的软件设计之后，我确切地知道了互联网的工作原理和内容的工作原理。 这是我可以学习并爱上的新事物，但我仍然爱上它。 我喜欢策略，尤其是策略与用户体验设计的交叉点。 为什么要进行一些沟通，并与同事和利益相关者争论“外观”？ 我想我对主观性感到精疲力尽：“哦，我喜欢这个，因为我更喜欢紫色而不是粉红色。” 不，一切都可以测试。
Is UX strategy design?
是UX策略设计吗？
No, it’s what you do before design. You figure out what’s the product strategy, what’s the product? Who are we making it for? What features should it have? How are people going to find out about it? What are they going to do once they find out about it? How will the product make money? And then instead of building it, you prototype the most important parts and get customer feedback. Principled design is disappearing from the UX world; I have international students who have never taken even an art class who can make a native app using Sketch in two weeks. It’s so easy with all the toolkits. It’s all been commodified. If you’re a UX designer, unless you have five years of building digital products that actually see the light of day under your belt, your pay should be minimum wage. That’s all you’re worth to me. Because what have you done? Make some screens that have more than a few boxes on them, actually build some products. Make many, many prototypes. Do everything yourself, be truly hands-on and don’t just be like, “We’re going to design think our way through this.” I think there’s a lot of fakers out there. It’s not like we’re making a billboard or a packet of cigarettes — we’re making something that people are going to use. And so we need to know their mental model. That’s a lot more complicated. A lot of designers, they’re just pixel pushers, man. They’re not doing user research. They’re literally designing interfaces for themselves.
不，这是您在设计之前要做的。 您弄清楚什么是产品策略，什么是产品？ 我们是为谁做的？ 它应该具有什么功能？ 人们将如何找到它？ 一旦知道了该怎么办？ 产品将如何赚钱？ 然后，无需构建它，而是对最重要的部分进行原型设计并获得客户反馈。 原则性设计正在从UX世界中消失。 我有一些国际学生，他们甚至从未参加过美术课，他们可以在两周内使用Sketch制作本地应用程序。 所有工具包都很简单。 全部都被商品化了。 如果您是用户体验设计师，则除非您有五年的数字产品开发工作能真正看到日光之下，否则您的薪水应为最低工资。 这就是我所有的一切。 因为你做了什么？ 制作一些带有多个框的屏幕，实际制作一些产品。 制造许多原型。 自己动手做，真正动手，不要只是说：“我们将通过这种方式设计思路。” 我认为那里有很多伪造者。 并不是说我们在制作广告牌或一包香烟，而是在制作人们将要使用的东西。 因此，我们需要了解他们的心理模型。 这要复杂得多。 很多设计师，他们只是像素推动者。 他们没有进行用户研究。 他们实际上是在为自己设计接口。
‘I’m not saying design’s over, I just feel there’s less opportunities to do something that’s innovative.’
“我并不是说设计已经结束，我只是觉得做创新的机会更少。”
Still, there has to be a point where designers can make new contributions.
尽管如此，设计师必须做出新的贡献。
Well, as a musician, can you tell me if there’s any opportunity to make some kind of music that’s never been heard in pop music?
那么，作为一名音乐家，您能告诉我是否有机会创作某种流行音乐中从未听过的音乐？
I used to wonder how there could be new songs left. How can it be that the combinations of notes haven’t been totally exhausted? But music is also about performance, production, culture, instrumentation.
我曾经想知道怎么可能还剩下新歌。 笔记的组合怎么还没有完全用尽呢？ 但是音乐也与表演，制作，文化，乐器有关。
It’s harder though, right?
不过很难，对吗？
It’s harder but there are different tools, different opportunities.
这比较困难，但是有不同的工具和不同的机会。
Right. And so many people have the tools. I’m not saying design’s over, I just feel there’s less opportunities to do something that’s innovative. It’s really, really hard, and it’s getting really complicated. You can’t just say, “Oh, I know how to do a wireframe. I’m a designer.” No, you need to understand all those other technologies that are related to it, so that you can actually make something that’s truly contextually connected. I’m talking about interaction design. Every design pattern has pretty much been done: we have the accordion, we have swim lanes, we have carousels, we have global navigation. I feel there’s less need for design or visual designers in the world of software design and that the opportunity for being creative is around integrating it with all of these other technologies — and the physical world.
对。 有这么多人拥有这些工具。 我并不是说设计已经结束，我只是觉得做创新的机会减少了。 这确实非常非常困难，而且变得越来越复杂。 您不能只是说：“哦，我知道如何制作线框。 我是设计师 。” 不，您需要了解与之相关的所有其他技术，以便您可以真正制作出真正与上下文相关的东西。 我说的是交互设计。 每个设计模式都差不多完成了：我们有手风琴，有泳道，有转盘，有全球性导航。 我觉得软件设计领域对设计或视觉设计师的需求减少了，而具有创造力的机会就在于将其与所有其他技术(以及物理世界)集成在一起。
I still think that’s design — it’s designing design.
我仍然认为这是设计–它是设计。
I like seeing digital products as jigsaw puzzles, so I say, “Let’s look at this app, and then look at that app, and take a piece of this functionality, and a piece of that, and put it together, like cooking.” It’s all about minimalist design. Less is more. What are the two or three things this thing needs to do? Let’s make it do them really well.
我喜欢将数字产品视为拼图游戏，所以我说：“让我们先看一下该应用程序，然后看一下该应用程序，并使用其中的一部分功能，然后像烹饪一样将其组合在一起。” 这都是关于简约的设计。 少即是多。 这件事需要做的两三件事？ 让我们把它们做得很好。
Do you still think about your art practice?
您是否还在考虑自己的艺术实践？
I did a bunch of shit in this 10-year period of my life from 1990 to 2000, and I would like to preserve that legacy, which means constantly converting it so that it will play on contemporary computers. I took my VHS tapes and my DVDs to this transfer place and I was like, “Can you get all this stuff onto this new hard drive?” I felt I was going to a kitchen appliance center. The DVDs had to be frozen to work and the videos had to be baked. I think about my heroes, all the video artists that inspired me, the only way you’re going to see their art, man, is if it’s in a museum. For all the artists at the time — including me, smack in the middle of it — if we aren’t actively converting our work, it’s all going to be lost.
从1990年到2000年的这10年间，我做了很多事情，我想保留这一遗产，这意味着要不断对其进行转换，以便可以在现代计算机上播放。 我把我的VHS磁带和DVD搬到了这个转移地点，我当时想：“您能把所有这些东西都放到这个新硬盘上吗？” 我觉得我要去厨房电器中心。 DVD必须冻结才能工作，而视频必须烘烤。 我想到了我的英雄们，所有启发我的视频艺术家，唯一能看到他们的作品的人就是博物馆。 对于当时的所有艺术家(包括我在内)，如果我们不积极地转换自己的作品，一切都将丢失。
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