Episode 98 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week your hosts are Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy), Stephan Segraves (@ssegraves), and Kevin Yank (@sentience). They are joined by special guest Simon Pascal Klein (@klepas).
SitePoint Podcast的第98集现已发布！ 本周的主持人是Patrick O'Keefe( @iFroggy )，Stephan Segraves( @ssegraves )和Kevin Yank( @sentience )。 特殊来宾Simon Pascal Klein( @klepas )也加入了他们的行列 。
下载此剧集 (Download This Episode)
You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:
您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：
SitePoint Podcast #98: A Change in the Matrix(MP3, 63.7MB, 1:09:29)SitePoint Podcast＃98：矩阵发生了变化(MP3，63.7MB，1:09:29)
剧集摘要 (Episode Summary)
Here are the topics covered in this episode:
以下是本集中介绍的主题：
- Google to drop search rankings for content farms 谷歌将降低内容农场的搜索排名
- Google drops search rankings for copycat content sites Google降低了模仿者内容网站的搜索排名
- Google accuses Microsoft of stealing its search results for use in Bing 谷歌指责微软窃取其搜索结果用于必应
- OpenID: on the way out? OpenID：在出路？
Special Interview: SitePoint launches Design Festival!
特别采访： SitePoint启动设计节！
Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/98.
浏览http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/98中显示的参考链接的完整列表。
主持人聚光灯 (Host Spotlights)
Pascal: I Love Typography
帕斯卡： 我爱版式
Stephan: Visor
斯蒂芬： 遮阳板
Patrick: Micah David Sutton – baby geek
帕特里克： 米卡·大卫·萨顿–怪胎
Kevin: Google Follow Your World
凯文： Google跟随您的世界
显示成绩单 (Show Transcript)
Kevin: February 4, 2011. Google declares victory over spam and starts in on the farmers, Microsoft gets caught red-handed, and something new from SitePoint for designers. I’m Kevin Yank and this is the SitePoint Podcast #98: A Change in the Matrix.
凯文(Kevin)： 2011年2月4日。Google宣布战胜垃圾邮件，并开始对农民发起攻击，微软被人抓获，以及SitePoint为设计师提供的一些新功能。 我是Kevin Yank，这是SitePoint播客＃98：矩阵的变化。
And welcome to the SitePoint Podcast! We are getting ever closer to #100 and I’ll have more news about that at the end of this show, but we are joined once again by our panelists Stephan and Patrick, hi guys.
欢迎来到SitePoint播客！ 我们越来越接近＃100，并且在本次演出的结尾我会收到更多有关此消息的消息，但我们的小组成员斯蒂芬和帕特里克(大家好)再次加入了我们。
Patrick: Hey Kevin.
帕特里克：嘿，凯文。
Stephan: Howdy.
史蒂芬：你好。
Kevin: Brad is snowed in today if I’m not mistaken. He sent his late apologies that a massive storm is descending on him and he had to unplug all of his electronics, so we’re gonna have to do without Brad today. Is it snowing where Brad is or is it just a storm guys, do you know?
凯文：如果我没记错的话，布拉德今天下雪了。 他向他道歉，他说一场大风暴正在降临，他不得不拔掉所有电子设备，所以今天我们不得不离开布拉德。 你知道布拉德在哪里下雪吗？还是暴风雨家伙？
Stephan: It’s snowing, yeah.
史蒂芬：下雪了，是的。
Kevin: It’s snowing everywhere.
凯文：到处都在下雪。
Patrick: It’s a big storm, yeah.
帕特里克：是一场大风暴，是的。
Kevin: It was 40 degrees here in Melbourne, 40 degrees Celsius, yesterday.
凯文：昨天在墨尔本，摄氏40度，当时是40度。
Patrick: Right, you had to clarify that, Celsius.
帕特里克：对，您必须澄清一下，摄氏温度。
Kevin: So neener, neener, neener I think is what I meant to say. We are also joined by a special guest today, Pascal, Simon Pascal Klein, hello.
凯文：我想说的是纳涅尔，纳涅尔，纳涅尔。 今天，还有特别嘉宾，帕斯卡尔(Pascal)，西蒙·帕斯卡尔(Simon Pascal Klein)，您好。
Pascal: Hey, how’s it going? It’s also really hot here, just a bit further north in Canberra, also in Australia, but yeah.
帕斯卡尔：嘿，最近怎么样？ 这里的天气真的很热，就在堪培拉和澳大利亚的北部，但是，是的。
Kevin: Our nation’s capital.
凯文：我们国家的首都。
Pascal: Yeah, indeed.
帕斯卡：是的，的确如此。
Kevin: Pascal is joining us today to talk about a new site that’s being launched under the SitePoint brand, but that too we will come back to in a little bit. Before we get to all of that exciting stuff we’ve got a little news to get through, this is what you all tuned in for so let’s launch it right off.
凯文：帕斯卡(Pascal)今天加入我们，谈论一个以SitePoint品牌推出的新网站，但是我们也将在不久后再谈到。 在我们获得所有令人兴奋的内容之前，我们需要获得一些小消息，这是你们所有人都喜欢的，所以让我们立即启动它。
As happens very frequently on the Podcast these days a lot of our news is about Google, so let’s just dive right in here. We’ve got a few sort of Google-related stories that kind of string together here so see if you can follow the progression from one to another. This first thing is an announcement that Google made, wow, it seems a little while ago now, January 21st is when this broke on techdirt.com which is news out of Google that they are planning to make some changes to their search ranking algorithm to penalize so-called content farm sites. Patrick did you read about this?
正如最近在Podcast上经常发生的那样，我们的许多新闻都是关于Google的，所以让我们就在这里潜水。 我们这里有一些与Google相关的故事，这些故事串在一起，所以看看您是否可以追踪从一个故事到另一个故事的过程。 第一件事是Google宣布的消息，哇，好像是在不久前的1月21日，这是在techdirt.com上发生这种情况时发出的消息，这是Google的消息，他们计划对其搜索排名算法进行一些更改， 惩罚所谓的内容农场站点 。 帕特里克你读过这个吗？
Patrick: Yeah I read about it, it’s hard to take a whole lot from the general statements that are being made by Matt Cutts and others, but basically they are taking some sort of action, we never really know what type of action exactly.
帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，我读过它，很难从Matt Cutts和其他人所做的一般性陈述中得到很多，但是基本上他们正在采取某种行动，我们永远不真正知道确切的行动类型。
Kevin: Yeah, it’s all sort of vague double talk.
凯文：是的，这有点含糊不清。
Patrick: The algorithm has changed.
帕特里克：算法已更改。
Kevin: (laughs) Something has changed in the Matrix. Matt Cutts is well known as Google’s sort of spokesperson for their anti-spam efforts, so he’s the guy who’s responsible for communicating to web developers the naughty behaviors that Google is punishing over time, and so I guess his job is one that gets more and more difficult as time goes by. But this latest announcement, he says that basically reading between the lines here Google is declaring victory over obvious spam making its way into Google search results, and now they’re going after some of the gray areas, among them Demand Media. Stephan, Patrick, what do you think of Demand Media?
凯文：(笑)《黑客帝国》发生了一些变化。 马特·卡茨(Matt Cutts)因其反垃圾邮件的努力而被称为Google的代言人，因此他是负责向网络开发人员传达Google随时间推移惩罚的顽皮行为的人，所以我想他的工作是一项越来越多的工作，并且随着时间的流逝更加困难。 但他说，这是最新的公告，基本上是在字里行间中宣告Google胜过明显的垃圾邮件，这些垃圾邮件已经进入了Google搜索结果，现在它们正在寻找一些灰色地带，其中包括Demand Media。 斯蒂芬·帕特里克，您如何看待需求媒体？
Stephan: They’re my favourite website on the Internet.
史蒂芬：它们是我最喜欢的互联网网站。
Patrick: Well, I’m only vaguely familiar with Demand Media, but I know they are behind sites like eHow, livestrong.com, crack.com, trails.com and a couple others, and they are some call them a content farm, that’s an unflattering term, I don’t know if they would call themselves that…
帕特里克(Patrick)：嗯，我对需求媒体(Demand Media)只是一个模糊的熟悉，但是我知道它们位于eHow，livestrong.com，crack.com，trails.com和其他几个网站的背后，并且有人称它们为内容农场，那是一个不讨人喜欢的名词，我不知道他们是否会自称为……
Kevin: I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t call themselves that. (laughs)
凯文：我很确定他们不会那样称呼自己。 (笑)
Patrick: A marketplace for freelancers more or less, but I don’t know, I see issues with this and one of the issues that I see, and especially reading the comments at Techdirt and this comment that this thought has brought up is that— Matt Cutts is using the term low quality content, so pure web spam is decreasing and it’s not the main thing that they’re focusing on, now they have to worry about his words “shallow” or “low quality content”. How you divide that, how you decide what fits under that is very difficult and you have people commenting that the Demand Media sites like eHow fall into that category, you have people throwing About.com into that and the thing about it is just from my casual searching of the Internet and looking for information I can say that I’ve actually been helped by eHow articles before myself personally.
帕特里克(Patrick)：一个或多或少的自由职业者市场，但我不知道，我看到了与此有关的问题以及我看到的其中一个问题，尤其是在Techdirt上阅读的评论，以及这种想法引起的评论是： Matt Cutts使用的是“低质量内容”一词，因此纯网络垃圾邮件正在减少，这并不是他们关注的主要内容，现在他们不得不担心他的话是“浅”还是“低质量内容”。 如何划分，如何确定适合的内容是非常困难的，并且有人评论说诸如eHow之类的Demand Media网站属于该类别，有人将About.com投入其中，而关于它的事情仅来自于我可以随意搜索Internet并查找信息，我可以说我本人面前的eHow文章实际上对我有所帮助。
Kevin: Really.
凯文：真的。
Kevin: And I can also say that I’ve read things that were helpful at About.com. Now, were they the only websites on the Internet to have the information? No, I don’t think so. So are they ranked well in the search engines? Certainly. But they still helped me so at what point does repetitive content let’s say, or content directed towards search engines, really become dangerous or counterproductive? The most important thing is that people who search for something get the relevant page, and whether that comes from a “content farm” that writes posts as questions that actually provide the answers, or a leading publication, if the question is answered then I don’t really see that as a problem.
凯文：我也可以说，我在About.com上阅读了一些有用的东西。 现在，它们是Internet上仅有的拥有该信息的网站吗？ 不，我不这么认为。 那么他们在搜索引擎中排名很好吗？ 当然。 但是他们仍然为我提供了帮助，那么在什么时候说重复性内容或针对搜索引擎的内容真的变得危险或适得其反？ 最重要的是，搜索内容的人会获得相关的页面，以及该页面是否来自将内容写为实际提供答案的问题的“内容农场”，还是领先的出版物，如果问题得到了答案，我不会真的不认为这是一个问题。
Kevin: Hmm. Can you share the story of how you were helped by these sites because I know my experiences often I feel duped when I arrive at these sites; I do a search, I click on the most relevant looking result and as soon as I see the About.com logo I go “ah, crap, I’ve been fooled again”, and sure enough the page is I suppose technically about what I was searching for but it doesn’t have anywhere near the level of information that I was interested in. At best I would call it like a dictionary definition sort of depth, as few words as they can get away with to answer that question, that’s what you get on those pages.
凯文：嗯。 您能分享一下这些站点如何为您提供帮助的故事吗，因为我知道自己到达这些站点时经常感到受骗； 我进行搜索，然后点击最相关的搜索结果，一看到About.com徽标，我就说“啊，胡扯，我又被上当了”，并且可以肯定地说，该页面在技术上应该是关于我一直在搜索，但是却没有我感兴趣的信息。充其量，我将其称为字典定义的一种深度，尽可能少的单词可以回答这个问题，那就是您在这些页面上看到的。
Patrick: I can give you a couple of examples, and I mean I would say that about a lot of websites and I wouldn’t so-call them content farms necessarily, but I can give you a couple of examples just from my history, from a browser history I enter eHow so I can pull up a couple of things. First thing, one of the things that comes up and this will be a varied array of things, one of the things that comes up is “How to defeat all bosses in Megaman 6,” and how that came up was my little brother asked me, he said, “What is the weapon that beats this boss again?” So I entered that, it came up, I went to it and it had the information that this boss you’re supposed to use this special weapon to defeat this person, so that’s one example it’s just kind of a random video game question. Another one that came up was “factors that affect police officers’ discretion,” and so why was I searching for that? Well, I was working on an article that correlates forum moderators with law enforcement officers because two of my moderators just happen to be law enforcement officers; one is a squad car officer and then one is SWAT or similar I believe. And so we talked about demeanor and so I’m looking for subject matter on that topic and they had five different things that affect demeanor that made sense and will help with the article. And I have a couple other things here like “how to do Wii Bowling tricks and cheats,” another one for my little brother where he was looking for this trick I had never heard of on Wii Bowling, I don’t know if you play Wii Bowling any of you, but on the challenge where you try to knock down as many pins as possible and the number of pins keep getting larger, at the last frame, 91 pins, you can throw it along the wall, ride the ball to the back, hit a red switch and all the pins go down with a boom; I had no idea about that (laughter) now you might know out there if you play Wii Bowling, but, I found it through eHow so, again, those were some situations that were helpful to me and there you go Kevin.
帕特里克：我可以举几个例子，我的意思是说很多网站，我不一定会称其为内容农场，但是我可以从历史上举几个例子，从浏览器历史记录中，我输入eHow，这样我就可以完成几件事。 第一件事，其中一件即将发生的事情，将是各种各样的事情，其中一件事情是“如何击败《洛克曼6》中的所有老板”，而这件事是我弟弟问我的，他说：“再次打败这位老板的武器是什么？” 因此，我输入了它，它出现了，我去了，它得到的信息是这个老板你应该使用这种特殊的武器来打败这个人，所以这是一个例子，它只是一个随机的电子游戏问题。 出现的另一个问题是“影响警察自由裁量权的因素”，那我为什么要寻找呢？ 好吧，我正在写一篇文章，将论坛主持人与执法人员联系起来，因为我的两名主持人恰好是执法人员； 我相信一个是班长，然后是特警或类似人员。 因此，我们讨论了举止，因此我正在寻找该主题的主题，他们有五种不同的因素影响举止，这些举止是有意义的，并将对本文有所帮助。 我在这里还有其他几件事，例如“如何做Wii保龄球的技巧和作弊”，另一个是给我弟弟的，他正在寻找我从未听说过的Wii保龄球的技巧，我不知道你是否参加比赛Wii打保龄球，但您要尝试尽可能多地击倒针脚并且针脚数量不断增加的挑战，在最后一帧，有91个针脚，您可以将它沿着墙壁扔下去，将球踢向后面，打一个红色开关，所有销钉都随着动臂下降。 我对此一无所知(众笑)，现在您可能知道您是否玩Wii保龄球，但是，我通过eHow找到了，所以，再次，有些情况对我有帮助，凯文就去了。
Kevin: Alright, alright, I think you’ve made your point. Why are these things called content farms?
凯文：好吧，好吧，我想你已经说了。 为什么将这些东西称为内容农场？
Patrick: I don’t really know who coined that term. I don’t know; does anyone know who came up with that?
帕特里克：我真的不知道是谁创造了这个名词。 我不知道; 有谁知道谁提出来的？
Kevin: No, I don’t know who came up with the term.
凯文：不，我不知道谁提出了这个词。
Patrick: Well, I don’t know either. The nature of a content farm, the implication is that there are all of these writers similar to a farm that’s growing all of these same types of vegetables and they’re here churning these articles out and the implication is that they produce generally low quality content because they produce a high volume of content from an assortment of different sources. The Wikipedia article for content farm is rather bleak looking I would say, it says “Content farms are criticized for providing relatively low quality content as they maximize profit by producing just ‘good enough’ rather than best possible quality articles.”
帕特里克：嗯，我也不知道。 内容农场的性质是，所有这些作家都类似于一个正在种植所有这些相同类型蔬菜的农场，他们在这里编写这些文章，这意味着他们生产的内容通常质量较低因为它们从各种不同的来源中产生了大量的内容。 Wikipedia关于内容服务器场的文章看起来相当凄凉，我说，“内容服务器场因提供质量相对较低的内容而受到批评，因为它们仅通过制作“足够好”而不是质量最好的文章来最大化利润。”
Kevin: Listening to that wording I can just imagine the history of that Wikipedia page that the first version said content farms have low quality content and exploit their writers, and then it was very quickly amended to content farms are criticized for having low quality content and exploiting the writers which you could then provide a citation for (laughs). I can just imagine the evolution, I’m sure someone not very happy with content farms was the original creator of that page.
凯文(Kevin)：听那句话，我只能想象维基百科页面的历史，第一个版本说内容农场的内容质量低下并剥削了作家，然后很快就被修改为内容农场的内容质量低下而受到批评。利用作家，然后您可以提供引用(笑)。 我可以想像它的发展，我敢肯定有人对该内容场不太满意是该页面的最初创建者。
Patrick: Point of view, point of view.
帕特里克：观点，观点。
Stephan: I think one key in there in this wording on the Google blog, it says that people are asking for even stronger action on content farms and sites that consist primarily of spammy or low quality content, the second part of that is kind of worrisome don’t you guys think, I mean spam I’m fine with, get rid of that, but low quality content that makes Google the judge and jury of what’s quality and what’s not, right? And so what about some kid that’s just trying to get started or something, does he get — maybe he writes something actually useful one time and he gets knocked off Google because the rest of his stuff is low quality?
斯蒂芬：我认为Google博客中此词的一个关键之处是，人们要求对主要由垃圾内容或低质量内容组成的内容农场和网站采取更强有力的措施，第二部分令人担忧你们不认为吗？我的意思是说我可以接受垃圾邮件，摆脱这些垃圾邮件，但是低质量的内容使Google成为判断质量是什么的判断标准，对吗？ 那么，对于一个刚开始尝试的孩子来说，他会得到些什么呢？也许他一次写了实际上有用的东西，却因为其他东西质量低劣而被Google淘汰了？
Patrick: Yeah, I think that’s Google’s job, right, I think in the way he says that it’s almost an obvious thing I think and something that Google should do anyway, their emphasis should always be to return the most quality results for that query, and so they should always try to limit the low quality content; I don’t know that you need to limit it necessarily by saying, okay, eHow or any site that has this mass market of freelancers is low quality content, Google just needs to focus on always delivering that high quality content regardless of where it comes from as long as it is in line with the Google Webmaster Guidelines ™.
帕特里克：是的，我认为这是Google的工作，对，我认为他所说的这几乎是一件显而易见的事情，无论如何Google都应该这样做，他们的重点应该始终是为该查询返回最优质的结果，因此，他们应该始终尝试限制低质量的内容； 我不知道您需要通过说“好吧，eHow”或任何拥有大量自由职业者市场的网站都是低质量内容来限制它，Google只需专注于始终提供高品质内容，无论它来自何处只要符合Google网站站长指南™。
Kevin: (Laughs) Well, I suppose whenever people get worried about what Google is doing is when they stray from I suppose where their original success came from. People fell in love with Google because they came up with this way of ranking “quality” of websites based on the link economy, so if a lot of people linked to a page Google considered it high quality because a lot of people are voting for it with their links and therefore that goes to the top of the search engine rankings. From a puristic standpoint I think that is an ideal that the vast majority of people can get behind, but the problem is obviously it’s fairly easily gamed and so over time in its spam combating efforts Google has had to introduce other factors which I’m guessing are less palatable to those idealistic minds who liked what Google stood for originally. So to give a spurious example here, if Google started ranking sites based on misspelled words and the more misspelled words you have the lower you drop in the rankings because you have lower “quality” on your site I think some people would get upset with that especially if as you say, Stephan, the best take on a particular topic was dragged down just because the author of it couldn’t spell as well as some of his competitors.
凯文：(笑)好吧，我想每当人们担心Google所做的事情时，他们就会流离失所，我想他们最初的成功来自何处。 人们之所以爱上Google，是因为他们想到了这种基于链接经济来对网站“质量”进行排名的方法，因此，如果许多人链接到某个页面，Google就会认为它是高质量的，因为很多人都在投票支持它与他们的链接，因此这是搜索引擎排名的顶部。 从纯粹的角度来看，我认为这是大多数人都可以落后的理想选择，但是问题显然是相当容易解决的，因此随着时间的流逝，垃圾邮件的打击工作Google必须引入其他我猜想的因素对于那些喜欢Google最初所代表的理想主义者来说，他们的可口性较差。 因此，在这里举一个虚假的例子，如果Google开始根据拼写错误的单词对网站进行排名，而拼写错误的单词越多，您的排名就越低，因为您网站的“质量”较低，我认为有些人会对此感到不满尤其是正如您所说的，斯蒂芬(Stephan)，某个特定主题的最佳表现被拖了下来，原因是该主题的作者无法像他的一些竞争对手一样拼写得很好。
Pascal: Just a thought here, I was just thinking ultimately I think that these sort of aggregated sites, they might not be that great and I think we just have to live with them because it’s just part of the distributed and free nature of the Internet, and I don’t see them as a threat or I don’t see them even really performing that well because they don’t offer anywhere near as good experiences usually as the sites that come up with the initial content themselves. And like you said, Kevin, when you’ve got to About.com you kind of realize that you got cheated or something, there’s like a different experience that I think a user has when they land on a page like that, they instantly know they’re not at a primary source, they have a secondary source or maybe even further down the source range here.
帕斯卡尔(Pascal)：只是想一想，我最终只是想我认为这些聚合的网站可能不是那么好，我认为我们只需要与它们一起生活，因为它只是Internet分布式和免费性质的一部分，而且我不认为它们构成威胁，甚至看不到它们的效果真的很好，因为它们通常无法提供与最初提供内容的网站一样好的体验。 就像你说的那样，凯文(Kevin)，当您进入About.com时，您会意识到自己被骗了或其他什么，我认为当用户登陆到这样的页面时，他们会有一种不同的体验，他们会立即知道他们不是主要来源，而是次要来源，甚至可能不在这里。
Kevin: Yeah. I guess, you know, if Google is able to make some obscure change to its algorithm that will de-prioritize those sort of pages that people arrive at and feel duped by then great, I think the best thing for them to do is to do it rather than to talk about doing it because talking about doing it seems to get people worried and upset whereas doing it is just going to make people happy unless I suppose you are an employee of Demand Media or even a stockholder in Demand Media.
凯文：是的。 我想，您知道，如果Google能够对其算法进行一些晦涩的更改，从而降低人们进入并感到困惑的那类页面的优先级，那么我认为他们要做的最好的事情就是而不是谈论这样做，因为谈论它似乎会使人们感到担忧和沮丧，而这样做只会使人们感到高兴，除非我认为您是Demand Media的雇员甚至是Demand Media的股东。
And this is the trail of headlines leads us next to Demand Media’s great big IPO, their initial public offering of stock, Demand Media, the company behind these various sites we’ve been talking about went public last week and Google made its announcement just in the days leading up to that public offering which raised a lot of eyebrows. People thought maybe Google was trying to torpedo that public offering; I suspect maybe they just felt like they would get into less trouble by letting the world at large know that they were planning to make a change that would affect the business of this company that would suddenly have a whole lot of stockholders in not very long. But that public offering went ahead anyway, and from reports I’ve read was wildly successful; this is from a story at Searchengineland.com by Danny Sullivan, and he says that Demand Media “after going public quickly ranked up evaluation higher than the New York Times.” What do you guys think of that?
这是头条新闻的踪迹，这使我们紧随Demand Media的大型IPO，他们的首次公开发行股票，Demand Media，我们一直在谈论的这些不同网站背后的公司，于上周公开上市，而Google刚刚在进行公开募股的日子引起了很多关注。 人们认为，也许谷歌正在试图破坏该公开发行。 我怀疑也许他们只是想让全世界知道他们正计划做出将影响这家公司业务的变革，而这种变革会在不久的将来突然引起很多股东的困扰，从而减轻他们的麻烦。 但是无论如何，这次公开募股都取得了进展，从我读到的报道来看，这是非常成功的。 这是丹尼·沙利文(Danny Sullivan)在Searchengineland.com上的一个故事 ，他说Demand Media“在公开发行后Swift获得了比《纽约时报》更高的评价”。 你们怎么看？
Patrick: You’re aghast. I can tell.
帕特里克：你真吓人。 我可以告诉。
Kevin: (Laughs) I don’t know how big Demand Media is, I have a hard time sort of getting a feel for how big it is, but in terms of its business model and its long term prospects a lot of people think that I guess it’s a lot more valuable than a “traditional newspaper” these days.
凯文：(笑)我不知道需求媒体有多大，我很难理解它的规模，但是就其商业模式和长期前景而言，很多人认为我想这些天比“传统报纸”更有价值。
Stephan: No, I was just thinking about of course the papers are gonna be less valued so I don’t know if that’s saying much about Demand Media, I mean we’re kind of at the print age of papers is somewhat dying.
斯蒂芬：不，我只是想当然地考虑论文的价值会降低，所以我不知道这是否对Demand Media来说太多了，我的意思是我们在论文的印刷时代已经快要死了。
Patrick: Demand Media does have lower overhead, right, because their writers are already centralized around the world and freelancers who work in their own offices or homes so they have that lower overhead than the New York Times where they assume the costs of investigation, sending reporters to different places around the world, and having an expensive building in New York City or multiple expensive buildings.
帕特里克： Demand Media确实具有较低的开销，因为他们的作家已经集中在世界各地，并且自由职业者在自己的办公室或家中工作，因此其开销要比承担调查成本的《纽约时报》低。记者前往世界各地，并在纽约市拥有一栋昂贵的建筑物或多栋昂贵的建筑物。
Stephan: Well, no, they’ve kind of built a beautiful business model, right, because the New York Times can write the article and then Demand Media can put something up on eHow about something that New York Times already did the research for.
史蒂芬：嗯，不，他们建立了一个漂亮的商业模式，对，因为《纽约时报》可以撰写文章，然后《需求媒体》可以就《纽约时报》已经进行过研究的内容发表一些看法。
Patrick: Right. And that’s reporting in general, though. “The New York Times first reported that … this happened.”
帕特里克：对。 总体而言，这就是报告。 “《纽约时报》首先报道……这发生了。”
Stephan: Yeah, exactly.
斯蒂芬：是的，确实如此。
Kevin: The story at SearchEngineLand by Danny Sullivan is an interesting read, it opens up kind of with a tongue-in-cheek reimagining of the New York Times homepage if it were produced by Demand Media. You can see immediately all of the headlines are changed into search-engine-friendly questions and all of the links are turned blue with underlines which I’m not exactly sure what that does, maybe that’s just Demand Media’s design style that they’re mocking there. But he goes on in the second half of the post to say, in seriousness, this raises some questions about news gathering and its role if the Demand Media’s of the world are going to be rising to similar prominence as traditional news outlets as the New York Times. His worry is that Demand Media, content farm that it may or may not be, its business interests are best served not by reporting what is important or what is interesting or what is useful for people to know, but rather by writing content that people are searching for on topics that have advertising easily associated with them, because that’s how Demand Media makes its money. It pays attention to what people are searching for and whenever it detects a topic that there are profitable advertisements to be run against that topic, they’ll get one of their stable of writers to write up a thin piece of content to create a page that answers that question and then they’ll run ads next to it and rake in the dough from the search engine traffic. So if Demand Media starts eclipsing our news organizations, are we at risk of losing coverage of the important stories in favor of the monetizable stories, is what he’s worrying about.
凯文(Kevin)： 丹尼·沙利文(Danny Sullivan ) 在SearchEngineLand上的故事读起来很有趣，如果是由Demand Media制作的话，它可以用舌头的方式重新构想《纽约时报》的首页。 您可以立即看到所有标题都变成了搜索引擎友好的问题，所有链接都变成了带下划线的蓝色，我不确定到底是怎么回事，也许这只是他们嘲笑的Demand Media的设计风格那里。 但是他继续在帖子的后半部分说，严肃地说，这会引起一些有关新闻搜集及其作用的问题，如果世界上的需求媒体的地位将像纽约这样的传统新闻媒体越来越突出的话时间。 他担心的是，最好不要通过报告重要的，有趣的或对人们有用的内容来满足需求媒体(它可能是也可能不是)的内容农场，而不是通过报告人们知道的内容来最好地满足其业务利益。搜索与广告容易相关的主题，因为这是Demand Media赚钱的方式。 它关注人们在寻找什么，每当它检测到一个主题，针对该主题有可获利的广告投放时，他们就会聘请一位稳定的作家来撰写一小段内容来创建一个页面，回答该问题，然后他们将在其旁边投放广告，并从搜索引擎访问量中获得收益。 因此，如果Demand Media开始使我们的新闻机构黯然失色，我们是否有可能失去对重要新闻的报道，而转向可货币化的新闻，这就是他担心的事情。
Patrick: Is valuation a way to determine whether Demand Media is eclipsing the New York Times in that category? That’s a question I would ask. I don’t think that that’s necessarily the most accurate way to look at it. I mean, obviously, Disney is worth more than the New York Times, that didn’t seem to hurt the New York Times either, so Disney can start their own news-controlled organization and start feeding us the news they want us to know that makes money but they don’t because it’s not their business. Demand Media obviously it is more their business but I think that there will always be room for organizations that actually break the news because there is money to be made there and there’s a whole transition thing, the old media/new media thing, it’s this whole sort of mess of a topic that has been well discussed on this show and others where New York Times has a very nice website, in my opinion, a very nice presence and they’ve made a lot of strides in that area and I think that they’ll continue to find ways to modernize the business that they’re in, which is print journalism and now web journalism, and without those sorts of outlets then you don’t have a lot of these other stories and we can’t really report or comment or have an commentary. So to me I’m not really concerned about it because the money being made— As long as there is money being made, but comparatively one organization making more money than another or being valued higher than another I don’t think that’s reason for it, I don’t think the New York Times is gonna disappear because of that.
帕特里克(Patrick)：估值是否可以确定需求媒体是否在该类别中超越《纽约时报》？ 我会问这个问题。 我认为这不一定是最准确的观察方法。 我的意思是，很显然，迪斯尼比纽约时报更有价值，这似乎也不会对《纽约时报》造成伤害，因此迪斯尼可以成立自己的新闻控制组织并开始向我们提供他们希望我们知道的新闻赚钱，但他们没有，因为这不是他们的事。 Demand Media显然更多的是他们的业务，但我认为组织实际会发布新闻总是会有空间的，因为那里有赚钱的地方，而且有一个整体的过渡事物，旧媒体/新媒体事物，这就是整体在这个节目中，以及在《纽约时报》拥有一个非常不错的网站的其他话题上，我已经很好地讨论了这个话题，在我看来，他们在这个领域取得了长足进步，我认为他们将继续寻找使他们所从事的业务现代化的方法，即印刷新闻学和现在的网络新闻学，如果没有这些渠道，那么您就没有太多其他故事了，我们就无法真正报告或发表评论或发表评论。 因此，对我来说，我并不真正担心它，因为赚钱了—只要有钱就赚了，但是相对而言，一个组织赚的钱比另一个组织多，或者其价值比另一个组织高，我不认为这是原因，我认为《纽约时报》不会因此而消失。
Kevin: Well, they may not disappear but that money that is there to be made by ads against search engine traffic it’s a siren song they’re gonna have to be careful not to follow, this is what I think the core of Danny Sullivan’s concern is that the New York Times of the world, struggling to stay profitable, are going to see this business model of Demand Media’s and embrace it and, just as he mocked up, create the Demand Media editions of their content which will lead to skewed editorial policies. I suppose there are a few wrong turns to be taken before we get to that.
凯文：好吧，它们可能不会消失，但是广告所赚的钱会打击搜索引擎的流量，这是警笛之歌，他们必须小心不要听，这就是丹尼·沙利文(Danny Sullivan)关注的核心是《纽约时报》在努力保持盈利的同时，将看到Demand Media的这种商业模式并将其接受，正如他所嘲弄的那样，创建其内容的Demand Media版本将导致编辑偏见政策。 我想在转向之前要采取一些错误的措施。
Patrick: Sure. Yeah. One thing I would say is a lot of people would consider WikiLeaks to be good news gathering, right, all the WikiLeaks stories the New York Times has put out and the New York Times made bank off the WikiLeaks stories with the amount of traffic that it drove to them. So I mean I think that there’s always that choice to make between writing content and, you know, even the way you described it was kind of funny to me when you described Demand Media, because in an ideal situation it’s not really that bad of a thing; you find out what people search and in an ideal way you give them what they want. Now that is ruined if you don’t, as your experience has been if you find bad content, but obviously there’s room to do this right.
帕特里克：当然。 是的 有一两件事我想说的是，很多人会认为维基解密是个好消息收集，好吧，维基解密的故事纽约时报推出了与纽约时报发银行关闭维基解密的故事与流量，它的量开车去他们那里。 因此，我的意思是，我认为在编写内容之间总是可以做出选择，而且，即使您描述的方式对我来说，当您描述Demand Media时，也很有趣，因为在理想的情况下，它并没有那么糟糕事情; 您可以找到人们搜索的内容，并以理想的方式为他们提供他们想要的东西。 如果您不这样做，那就糟了，就像您发现不良内容时的经验一样，但是显然有这样做的空间。
Kevin: There is, but I guess the criticism against Demand Media, and I’m not telling you anything you don’t know here, Patrick, but the criticism is that they pay as little as possible as they can get away with in order to get content that will rank in the search engines. That is their interest, their interest is not in producing content that informs people fully, that answers people’s questions fully, that is even especially readable. It’s get the search engine clicks through to them, and this leads to content producers working for chump change to not produce their best work ever. I guess it’s a race to the bottom.
凯文：有，但是我想是对Demand Media的批评，我不是在这里告诉你任何你不知道的事，Patrick，但是批评是他们付出了尽可能少的钱，以便有秩序地逃脱以获取将在搜索引擎中排名的内容。 那是他们的兴趣，他们的兴趣不是产生可以使人们充分了解的内容，可以完全回答人们的问题，甚至是可读性强的内容。 搜索引擎可以点击它们，这导致内容制作者努力改变，以至于无法产生他们有史以来最好的作品。 我想这是一场比赛。
Patrick: Right, it’s not paying at a rate that a veteran writer or an established journalist would accept payment as I would say, I’m not in that field but the article that is linked to by Danny Sullivan, which is at the money.cnn.com website says that typically the price is $15.00 for an article of several hundred words, so let’s say four to six hundred words, $15.00 or $30.00 for a video. Now I don’t know freelancing rates for writing so maybe that isn’t the worst pay in the world, but obviously it’s not a high level of compensation either.
帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，不是按照资深作家或资深记者接受付款的价格，就像我说的那样，我不在那个领域，而是由丹尼·沙利文(Danny Sullivan)链接到的文章是有钱的。 cnn.com网站说，通常，几百个字的价格是15.00美元，所以说四到六百个字，视频是15.00或30美元。 现在我不知道写作的自由职业率，也许这并不是世界上最差的薪水，但是显然这也不是很高的报酬。
Kevin: I want to give the last word to Danny Sullivan here. He says, “In reality a smart news publication would be doing both news coverage and ‘answers coverage,’ repurposing its existing content into the type of high quality answers that people are really seeking.” Well, fingers crossed that that’s the future we’re heading towards here.
凯文：我想在这里说最后一句话。 他说：“实际上，明智的新闻出版物将同时进行新闻报道和'答案报道'，将其现有内容重新转换为人们真正寻求的高质量答案。” 好吧，这是我们要走向这里的未来。
The next story in this Google cavalcade of news is again from Matt Cutts, we go back to Matt Cutts, and I was surprised to see him talking about two different changes to the Google search indexing algorithm in as many weeks, this one on January 28th this time on his personal blog, I guess I don’t know why he wouldn’t publish this on the Google Webmaster Blog where he usually writes this kind of stuff, but it’s kind of a follow-up to his official post on the Google Blog, he writes this on his personal blog, “I just wanted to give a quick update on one thing I mentioned in my search engine spam post, my post mentioned that ‘We’re evaluating multiple changes that should help drive spam levels even lower, including one change that primarily affects sites that copy others’ content and sites with low levels of original content,’ that change was approved at our weekly quality launch meeting last Thursday and launched earlier this week.” Have you guys noticed that those sort of results in Google, I certainly have. For the past month or so I’ve been getting increasing levels of results of where the top ranking things are sites that have obviously copied their content from somewhere else, and then if I go back to the Google search results page I can’t for the life of me find anywhere in that list the original, originating site for that content. Is it just me or have any of you guys had this experience recently?
这则Google新闻中的下一个故事再次来自Matt Cutts，我们回到Matt Cutts，我很惊讶地看到他在许多周内谈论了Google搜索索引算法的两个不同变化，这是1月28日这次在他的个人博客上，我想我不知道他为什么不将其发布在Google网站站长博客上，在那里他通常会撰写此类文章，但这是对他在Google上的官方帖子的跟进他在个人博客中写道： “我只是想对我在搜索引擎垃圾邮件中提到的一件事进行快速更新，我的帖子中提到'我们正在评估多项更改，这些更改应有助于将垃圾邮件的水平进一步降低，包括一项主要影响复制他人内容的网站和原始内容水平较低的网站的更改，”该更改已在上周四的每周质量发布会上获得批准，并于本周初发布。” 你们是否注意到我肯定在Google中获得了这类结果。 在过去的一个月左右的时间里，我一直在获得越来越高的搜索结果，其中排名最高的东西显然是从其他地方复制了其内容的网站，然后，如果我返回Google搜索结果页面，我将无法我的一生在该列表的任何位置都可以找到该内容的原始来源网站。 是我还是你们最近有什么经历？
Stephan: Yeah, it’s called Tumblr.
斯蒂芬：是的，它叫Tumblr。
Kevin: (laughter) Point well taken.
凯文：(笑声)观点很好。
Patrick: Google’s gonna buy Tumblr next week and then where will we be? No, just kidding.
帕特里克(Patrick)：谷歌下周将收购Tumblr，然后我们会去哪里？ 不只是在开玩笑。
Kevin: Tumblr, the quick and dirty blogging service that a lot of people tend to just re-tumbl is that the term?
凯文： Tumblr，许多人倾向于重新讨论的快速而肮脏的博客服务是这个术语吗？
Patrick: Right. It’s kind of like their ecosystem, Stephan, you might be a more veteran Tumblr than I, but their ecosystem part of it is this re-blogging feature where it’s not — if I take your post from sitepoint.com and put it on my blog at patrickokeefe.com, whatever, that’s copyright infringement, but on Tumblr this is a natural thing where people re-up other people’s content, they re-blog it, that’s their means of sharing content; sometimes they excerpt it, sometimes it’s posted in full, is that pretty much correct Stephan?
帕特里克：对。 就像他们的生态系统，斯蒂芬，您可能比我更资深的Tumblr，但他们的生态系统部分是此重新博客功能所不具备的-如果我从sitepoint.com上获取您的帖子并将其放在我的博客上在patrickokeefe.com上，无论如何，这都是侵犯版权的行为，但是在Tumblr上，人们重新添加他人的内容，然后重新博客，这是很自然的事情，这是共享内容的方式。 有时他们摘录了它，有时将它完整地张贴了，斯蒂芬几乎是正确的吗？
Stephan: It’s kind of the modus operandi I think of Tumblr.
史蒂芬：我想到的是Tumblr的一种作案手法。
Kevin: Things that originated on Tumblr tend to be pretty well credited when you just hit that re-blog button it usually puts the original writer, and it’s not uncommon to land at a Tumblr page and see like ten layers deep of people having quoted and re-quoted the same story and what you’ve landed at is the tenth copy of this story deep. But like you said, Stephan, that just seems to be the way people expect Tumblr to work. When content has originated from outside Tumblr it seems as often as not the person who originally posted on Tumblr has not given credit to the original source, and so you then get the posting and re-posting within Tumblr, but if you follow that whole trail back you end up at someone who has taken it from the outside world without crediting it.
凯文(Kevin)：当您按下重新博客按钮时，起源于Tumblr的东西通常会得到很好的认可，它通常会放置原始作者，并且进入Tumblr页面并看到被引用和引用的人有十层的情况并不罕见。重新引用相同的故事，而您找到的是该故事的第十篇。 但是就像您说的斯蒂芬(Stephan)，这似乎就是人们期望Tumblr运作的方式。 当内容来自Tumblr外部时，最初在Tumblr上发布的人员似乎并没有相信原始来源，因此您可以在Tumblr内进行发布和重新发布，但是如果您遵循整个流程最终，您遇到的是一个未经外界认可就从外面夺走了它的人。
Stephan: Yeah, it blows my mind; I didn’t realize so many amazing photographers were in one place. (laughter)
斯蒂芬：是的，这让我震惊。 我没有意识到有那么多出色的摄影师集中在一处。 (笑声)
Kevin: Yeah.
凯文：是的。
Patrick: What type of photography, exactly? No.
帕特里克：确切地说是什么类型的摄影？ 没有。
Stephan: Just all kind of stuff— yeah, that’s the other question too.
史蒂芬：各种各样的东西，是的，这也是另一个问题。
Patrick: (laughter) Ah, walked into that. No.
帕特里克：(笑声)啊，走进那儿。 没有。
Kevin: So Matt Cutts here says that this change is actually a minor one, maybe this is why he didn’t think it worthy of posting on the official Google Blog, but he says that slightly over 2% of search queries are going to change in some way as a result of this change, but I suppose if you own one of these sites where all of your content is something that is quoted from elsewhere or even taken wholesale from elsewhere with just a little credit provided at the bottom this may be sinking your business model. I’m not gonna shed any tears over you I suppose if that’s the case. So I don’t know, are we unanimous? Is it a bravo for this little change?
凯文：马特·卡茨(Matt Cutts)在这里说，这种改变实际上是一个很小的改变，也许这就是为什么他认为不值得在官方Google Blog上发布它，但是他说略高于2％的搜索查询将会改变某种程度上，是这种变化的结果，但是我想，如果您拥有其中一个网站，其中所有内容都是从其他地方引用的内容，或者甚至是从其他地方批发而来的内容，那么在底部仅提供了一点信用就可以破坏您的商业模式。 我想如果那样的话，我不会流泪。 所以我不知道，我们是否一致？ 这个小小的变化真勇敢吗？
Patrick: When it comes to full sale copyright infringement, I would say yes. When it comes to quoting obviously you have to be a little more careful there because there is such a thing as legitimate quoting as proper citation and in some way that’s how news spreads responsibly where people quote something and comment on it or add details with links and full attribution and I do that myself in some cases and have quoting practices that I adhere to in line with that. So I trust that Google is smart enough to understand that and just make sure that the people who are penalized are the ones who deserve it.
帕特里克(Patrick)：关于全面侵犯版权的行为，我会说是的。 当涉及到明显的报价时，您必须多加注意，因为存在诸如合理引用之类的东西，即适当的引用，并且以某种方式，新闻以负责任的方式传播，人们在其中引用和评论内容，或通过链接和完全归因，在某些情况下我会自己做，并引用与我保持一致的做法。 因此，我相信Google足够聪明，可以理解这一点，并且只需确保受惩罚的人就是应得的人。
Kevin: Yep. One last story from the annals of Google this week, and this is a late-breaking story that someone chucked to me via Twitter just as we were sitting down to record this, so I have not read a whole lot on this, but Patrick in our discussion it sounds like you were the most informed on this: is it true that Microsoft is copying its search results from Google?
凯文：是的 。 这周是Google的史册中的最后一个故事，这是一个最新的故事，有人在我们坐下来记录下来时通过Twitter向我吐槽，所以我还没有读到很多，但是Patrick在我们的讨论听起来像是您最了解此事：Microsoft是否真的从Google复制了搜索结果？
Patrick: Well, that’s not saying much, I’m the most informed. No.
帕特里克：嗯，这没什么多说的，我是最了解情况的。 没有。
Kevin: Take us through this.
凯文：带我们来看一下。
Patrick: I just read briefly to be fair, of course this is a new story, I’m not really well versed on it, but what I gather from reading an article by Danny Sullivan at SearchEngineLand is that Google had some sort of inclination that Bing was using Google’s results to improve the results that Bing delivers. And so what they did was they set up a sting of sorts where they created a search result page for a term that had no search result page on either service Google or Bing.
帕特里克：我只是为了公平起见简短地阅读了一下，当然这是一个新故事，我并不十分了解它，但是从阅读SearchEngineLand的Danny Sullivan的一篇文章中学到的是，谷歌有某种倾向Bing使用Google的结果来改善Bing提供的结果。 因此，他们所做的就是设置了某种形式的功能，即为一个在Google或Bing服务上都没有搜索结果页面的术语创建了一个搜索结果页面。
Kevin: So they created a fake search result basically.
凯文：所以他们基本上创建了一个虚假的搜索结果。
Patrick: Basically, yeah, they created result pages for something that really no one would search for most likely and that wouldn’t be found on any website, just random strings of letters like mbzrxpgjys, that sort of thing. And then they had a result and they found that Bing all of a sudden now has the exact same result for that nonsense term. And so of course I guess they gave this story to Danny Sullivan and he’s reported it in full and Google’s had their say on their blog and Bing’s responded on theirs and I think, I don’t know, it depends on your perspective; either this is unethical or it’s I think shrewd business because on one hand either they’re stealing the results, which is the unethical side, or they’re learning from the best and trying to apply it to their algorithm the most successful competitor. I don’t know; where do you fall on that?
帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，基本上，他们创建的结果页的确没有人会搜索到，而且在任何网站上都找不到，只是像mbzrxpgjys这样的随机字母字符串。 然后他们得到了一个结果，他们发现Bing突然间对于那个废话有了完全相同的结果。 因此，我当然认为他们把这个故事交给了丹尼·沙利文(Danny Sullivan)，他已经完整地报道了这个故事， 谷歌在博客上发表了他们的观点，而必应(Bing) 在他们的博客上做出了回应，我想，我不知道，这取决于您的观点。 这要么是不道德的，要么是我认为精明的业务，因为一方面，他们要么窃取结果(这是不道德的一面)，要么他们正在学习最好的方法，并试图将其应用到最成功的竞争对手的算法中。 我不知道; 你在哪里跌倒？
Kevin: Hmm, yeah, it’s tricky. Just reading about how they did this because the first question that sprang to my mind is how did Bing even know to add these nonsensical strings to its search index, and reading the official Google Blog on this, this is Google’s blog post, Microsoft’s Bing Uses Google Search Results—and Denies It. (Laughs) They kind of explain their whole sting operation here, and they actually gave 20 Google engineers laptops with fresh installs of Microsoft Windows running Internet Explorer 8 and the Bing toolbar, and then they ran those searches in the Bing toolbar and got nothing, and then after a while got something. And so the accusation here is that Bing is noting when they have no results for something and then is going looking for what their results should be on Google. I don’t know, Patrick, I can see that if I were Bing and I knew that people were not finding stuff, not finding answers for their queries and my best answer for how to get the results would be to go and ask Google and index the same thing I might be tempted to do that, I think it’s pretty unethical though.
凯文：嗯，是的，这很棘手。 只是阅读一下他们是如何做到的，因为我想到的第一个问题是Bing甚至是怎么知道如何将这些毫无意义的字符串添加到其搜索索引中的，并阅读有关此内容的官方Google Blog，这就是Google的博客文章， Microsoft的Bing Uses Google搜索结果-并拒绝它 。 (笑)他们在这里解释了整个操作过程，实际上他们给20台Google工程师笔记本电脑配备了全新安装的运行Internet Explorer 8和Bing工具栏的Microsoft Windows，然后他们在Bing工具栏中运行了这些搜索，却一无所获，然后过了一会儿 因此，这里的指控是Bing注意到他们什么时候都没有结果，然后打算在Google上寻找他们的结果。 我不知道，帕特里克(Patrick)，我可以看到，如果我是必应(Bing)，而且我知道人们没有找到东西，也没有找到他们的疑问的答案，而关于获得结果的最佳答案就是去问Google和我可能会尝试这样做，但我认为这样做是不道德的。
Patrick: Right. Yeah, I mean I can understand both sides of it. It’s one of those, I don’t know, it’s just one of those questions; on one hand if you eliminate the Google thing from it it’s genius to use the toolbar entries and say if this is what people are searching for and they’re not getting anything we need to get on this, that’s just a good use of data and Google might even do that with their various browser and toolbar integrations, but on the other hand when they do take the results from Google directly then the whole unethical discussion enters into it. Stephan?
帕特里克：对。 是的，我的意思是我可以理解双方的意思。 这是其中之一，我不知道，这只是这些问题之一。 一方面，如果您从中消除了Google的东西，那么使用工具栏条目是天才，并说如果这是人们正在寻找的东西，而他们没有得到我们需要的任何东西，那就是对数据的良好使用， Google甚至可以通过各种浏览器和工具栏的集成来做到这一点，但是另一方面，当他们确实直接从Google获得结果时，就会进入整个不道德的讨论之中。 斯蒂芬？
Kevin: Hang on. I’m just re-reading this Google blog post. Just a clarification here, what they’re saying they actually did they didn’t enter these synthetic terms into the Bing search query, they went in Internet Explorer 8 and entered them into the Google search engine homepage. And so the accusation here is that Microsoft is spying on searches that Internet Explorer 8 users are making on Google and using those to update Bing, so there’s a potential privacy issue here as well.
凯文：等等。 我只是在重新阅读这篇Google博客文章。 这里只是澄清一下，他们实际上是在说没有在Bing搜索查询中输入这些合成词，而是进入Internet Explorer 8，然后将其输入到Google搜索引擎首页。 因此，这里的指控是微软监视Internet Explorer 8用户在Google上进行的搜索，并使用这些搜索更新Bing，因此这里也存在潜在的隐私问题。
Stephan: That piece right there is really interesting though, I mean I would say that’s more of a violation then for users, I’d say that’s worse off than what Google’s getting copied really. I mean people should really be concerned about this.
Stephan: That piece right there is really interesting though, I mean I would say that's more of a violation then for users, I'd say that's worse off than what Google's getting copied really. I mean people should really be concerned about this.
Patrick: Yeah, because we can all log what people search for on our own websites, so I know when someone searches for something on one of my sites using search, I can look that up and see what people are searching for and then see if there are any links for that or even the bounce rate and all those things, you can set that up with analytics, but monitoring what people enter on other websites there’s the problem.
Patrick: Yeah, because we can all log what people search for on our own websites, so I know when someone searches for something on one of my sites using search, I can look that up and see what people are searching for and then see if there are any links for that or even the bounce rate and all those things, you can set that up with analytics, but monitoring what people enter on other websites there's the problem.
Kevin: So they’re saying that that particular monitoring is a feature of the Suggested Sites feature of Internet Explorer 8 which they opted into, so that feature when you turn it on it obviously asks you to agree to some big legal policy that would include sending your browsing traffic to Microsoft in order to compile a list of suggested sites for other Internet Explorer 8 users to use, I suppose they are using that. They’re saying that feature and the fact that the Bing toolbar was installed in the browser, which can also send data via Microsoft’s Customer Experience Improvement Program; those are the two possibilities where Microsoft is collecting that information. I’m not sure that anyone agreeing to opt into either of those programs would expect this particular type of data collection to occur; at least they wouldn’t naively expect it. The suggested site feature you’d expect to be used to suggest sites to other people’s Internet Explorer not to populate Microsoft’s search engine database. And similarly just because you have the Bing toolbar installed doesn’t mean that your activity on the Google website not using the Bing toolbar you wouldn’t expect that sort of activity to be monitored and tracked. Wow, so it’s interesting, Microsoft’s initial denials ring a little hollow in light of this evidence, I’d be interested to see what the next response from Microsoft if any is here, I mean I would imagine that at some point they’re gonna be forced to point to some obscure line of their Bing toolbar agreement and say, look, we said we could do this, people agreed, and that’s just the way it goes. But I suppose the fact that they denied it initially could not weigh in their favor. It’s all a bit of he said she said right now.
Kevin: So they're saying that that particular monitoring is a feature of the Suggested Sites feature of Internet Explorer 8 which they opted into, so that feature when you turn it on it obviously asks you to agree to some big legal policy that would include sending your browsing traffic to Microsoft in order to compile a list of suggested sites for other Internet Explorer 8 users to use, I suppose they are using that. They're saying that feature and the fact that the Bing toolbar was installed in the browser, which can also send data via Microsoft's Customer Experience Improvement Program; those are the two possibilities where Microsoft is collecting that information. I'm not sure that anyone agreeing to opt into either of those programs would expect this particular type of data collection to occur; at least they wouldn't naively expect it. The suggested site feature you'd expect to be used to suggest sites to other people's Internet Explorer not to populate Microsoft's search engine database. And similarly just because you have the Bing toolbar installed doesn't mean that your activity on the Google website not using the Bing toolbar you wouldn't expect that sort of activity to be monitored and tracked. Wow, so it's interesting, Microsoft's initial denials ring a little hollow in light of this evidence, I'd be interested to see what the next response from Microsoft if any is here, I mean I would imagine that at some point they're gonna be forced to point to some obscure line of their Bing toolbar agreement and say, look, we said we could do this, people agreed, and that's just the way it goes. But I suppose the fact that they denied it initially could not weigh in their favor. It's all a bit of he said she said right now.
Stephan: I was wondering how quickly they would separate themselves from the programmers who put this, like “We didn’t know what they were doing!”
Stephan: I was wondering how quickly they would separate themselves from the programmers who put this, like “We didn't know what they were doing!”
Kevin: (Laughs) Look, I can see the point of view that Patrick mentioned which is that if you want to build a great search engine standing on the shoulders of giants is one good way to do it; if you can get away with it or if you can justify it to yourself and to your customers that may just be the best way of doing it. And it may not even be illegal, you’ve got to go and look at Google’s terms of use and whether they say the uses to which your activity on the Google website can be put. At the end of the day if all they’re doing is tracking the behavior of Internet Explorer 8 users on the Google website, and Internet Explorer 8 users have opted into that, Google may not have a say in the matter, it’s hard to say. So we’ve got one more story here to go before we talk about this big, exciting design-related announcement that we have Pascal here for, so Pascal thank you for your patience, but we’re gonna talk about one more super-techie thing here and this is OpenID.
Kevin: (Laughs) Look, I can see the point of view that Patrick mentioned which is that if you want to build a great search engine standing on the shoulders of giants is one good way to do it; if you can get away with it or if you can justify it to yourself and to your customers that may just be the best way of doing it. And it may not even be illegal, you've got to go and look at Google's terms of use and whether they say the uses to which your activity on the Google website can be put. At the end of the day if all they're doing is tracking the behavior of Internet Explorer 8 users on the Google website, and Internet Explorer 8 users have opted into that, Google may not have a say in the matter, it's hard to say. So we've got one more story here to go before we talk about this big, exciting design-related announcement that we have Pascal here for, so Pascal thank you for your patience, but we're gonna talk about one more super-techie thing here and this is OpenID.
Stephan: Aw, do we have to? (Laughter)
Stephan: Aw, do we have to? (笑声)
Patrick: I kinda forgot about it.
Patrick: I kinda forgot about it.
Kevin: We’ve seen a few stories in the past week about OpenID and this is something we talked about, oh, it feels like a year ago on this podcast last. And the stories I’ve been seeing have been a little unkind to old OpenID, and I wanted to see if Stephan, Patrick, if your takes on this have changed or if you agree with the naysayers who are saying that OpenID’s on the way out, that it’s a failed experiment and that increasingly sites that built their login systems around OpenID are thinking they may have made a mistake. Patrick, I know you had the most contrarian opinion from memory on this.
Kevin: We've seen a few stories in the past week about OpenID and this is something we talked about, oh, it feels like a year ago on this podcast last. And the stories I've been seeing have been a little unkind to old OpenID, and I wanted to see if Stephan, Patrick, if your takes on this have changed or if you agree with the naysayers who are saying that OpenID's on the way out, that it's a failed experiment and that increasingly sites that built their login systems around OpenID are thinking they may have made a mistake. Patrick, I know you had the most contrarian opinion from memory on this.
Patrick: Don’t trust The Cloud!
Patrick: Don't trust The Cloud!
Kevin: Yeah, don’t trust the cloud.
Kevin: Yeah, don't trust the cloud.
Patrick: No, I mean here’s the thing, I use OpenID on precisely one thing, that is Tweet— What the heck is that thing that tweets my stories via RSS to the account? Whatever it is, TwitFeed, or TwitterFeed. I think it’s TwitterFeed, and I use it for that and I either had them switch it or I want them to switch it to my account on their service. And the reason is that I just like having that individual control of how I log in. The whole OpenID thing is so strange to me where I tie-in logins to all these services that I use into just one thing, and I feel that way whether it’s Facebook Connect or OpenID or whatever it is, I try to limit that and I try to have these individual accounts; some might say that’s an inconvenience but for me it’s just a matter of quality.
Patrick: No, I mean here's the thing, I use OpenID on precisely one thing, that is Tweet— What the heck is that thing that tweets my stories via RSS to the account? Whatever it is, TwitFeed, or TwitterFeed. I think it's TwitterFeed, and I use it for that and I either had them switch it or I want them to switch it to my account on their service. And the reason is that I just like having that individual control of how I log in. The whole OpenID thing is so strange to me where I tie-in logins to all these services that I use into just one thing, and I feel that way whether it's Facebook Connect or OpenID or whatever it is, I try to limit that and I try to have these individual accounts; some might say that's an inconvenience but for me it's just a matter of quality.
Kevin: I have to say I’m the same way with Facebook, that I resist using Facebook Connect to log in to other sites; if a site that I want to create an account for gives me the choice of creating a new account with a password or reusing my Facebook identity I will create my own account because I don’t trust Facebook with my identity, but my OpenID provider I do trust with my identity.
Kevin: I have to say I'm the same way with Facebook, that I resist using Facebook Connect to log in to other sites; if a site that I want to create an account for gives me the choice of creating a new account with a password or reusing my Facebook identity I will create my own account because I don't trust Facebook with my identity, but my OpenID provider I do trust with my identity.
Stephan: I think I agree with you, Kevin, and I think that the Webmonkey article points out its saying that Facebook’s implementation is much easier to use and easier to understand, I think it’s kind of ridiculous, I just think that more people use Facebook and so tons of people use Facebook everyday and when they see the little logo down there at the bottom they’re gonna click on it to log in to a website, and it’s not because of the developers it’s easier for them to do I don’t think, I mean maybe I’m wrong but I think it’s a— I can’t even think of the type of fallacy this is but it’s one of those that you’re drawing conclusions from something that’s not really … you can’t prove. So I don’t think it’s a good example, I think maybe OpenID’s just too complicated, and that’s part of the problem.
Stephan: I think I agree with you, Kevin, and I think that the Webmonkey article points out its saying that Facebook's implementation is much easier to use and easier to understand, I think it's kind of ridiculous, I just think that more people use Facebook and so tons of people use Facebook everyday and when they see the little logo down there at the bottom they're gonna click on it to log in to a website, and it's not because of the developers it's easier for them to do I don't think, I mean maybe I'm wrong but I think it's a— I can't even think of the type of fallacy this is but it's one of those that you're drawing conclusions from something that's not really … you can't prove. So I don't think it's a good example, I think maybe OpenID's just too complicated, and that's part of the problem.
Kevin: Yeah, well that’s the argument I’m seeing made here that OpenID is not, it’s not that people are going back to passwords, that users are going back to passwords from OpenID, it’s more that OpenID seems to have failed in a user experience sense whereas solutions like Facebook Connect, which technically are really just OpenID with a particular brand behind them, the reason Facebook Connect is succeeding where OpenID failed is it’s all about user experience; OpenID was a technical standard with no particular user experience attached to it, and so every site that implemented OpenID had to come up with its own way of presenting it, its own way of explaining it and because there was no one single way that people recognized, or at least regular users didn’t seem so to use it. Pascal, you were saying you recently worked on a site that had OpenID, right?
Kevin: Yeah, well that's the argument I'm seeing made here that OpenID is not, it's not that people are going back to passwords, that users are going back to passwords from OpenID, it's more that OpenID seems to have failed in a user experience sense whereas solutions like Facebook Connect, which technically are really just OpenID with a particular brand behind them, the reason Facebook Connect is succeeding where OpenID failed is it's all about user experience; OpenID was a technical standard with no particular user experience attached to it, and so every site that implemented OpenID had to come up with its own way of presenting it, its own way of explaining it and because there was no one single way that people recognized, or at least regular users didn't seem so to use it. Pascal, you were saying you recently worked on a site that had OpenID, right?
Pascal: Yeah, a friend of mine, Rohan Mitchell, another very cool developer type here in Canberra, the two of us got together last year and we wrote a very small Ruby based web app to handle voting for BarCamp talks, like which one’s the best talk, and we decided that it would be a great app for BarCamps to use so that people could find one place for all their slides and brief information, and they could also see the sort of cream of the crop talks from all past BarCamps, and we had initially Twitter login and usernames and passwords, and the Twitter login was used fairly well but we kept having problems with it and in the end we entirely ditched OpenID simply because we found usernames and passwords were better; we had some people with trust issues who asked us are their details of their accounts that they’re logging in sort of accessible. And I trust Rohan’s development skills but we haven’t looked at like security or anything like that, and we just felt like why not stick with something that works.
Pascal: Yeah, a friend of mine, Rohan Mitchell, another very cool developer type here in Canberra, the two of us got together last year and we wrote a very small Ruby based web app to handle voting for BarCamp talks, like which one's the best talk, and we decided that it would be a great app for BarCamps to use so that people could find one place for all their slides and brief information, and they could also see the sort of cream of the crop talks from all past BarCamps, and we had initially Twitter login and usernames and passwords, and the Twitter login was used fairly well but we kept having problems with it and in the end we entirely ditched OpenID simply because we found usernames and passwords were better; we had some people with trust issues who asked us are their details of their accounts that they're logging in sort of accessible. And I trust Rohan's development skills but we haven't looked at like security or anything like that, and we just felt like why not stick with something that works.
Kevin: Yeah, definitely. I know if you rewind the clock by about three years and you go to a web conference like the ones I tend to go to, people were walking around complaining about every new site that came out that asked you to create a new username and password. It was called the “password design pattern” and usually had the name “fail” next to it because there was this consensus among web developers that having users create a new password for every site they visit was fundamentally flawed. And I know even now my improv theatre company that I work with in my spare time I recently created just a little online booking system for their workshops that users had to create usernames and passwords for and fully in the space of the first three months fully I’d say half of the users who used it had to write back and say “I forgot my password, can I reset it please.”
凯文：是的，当然。 I know if you rewind the clock by about three years and you go to a web conference like the ones I tend to go to, people were walking around complaining about every new site that came out that asked you to create a new username and password. It was called the “password design pattern” and usually had the name “fail” next to it because there was this consensus among web developers that having users create a new password for every site they visit was fundamentally flawed. And I know even now my improv theatre company that I work with in my spare time I recently created just a little online booking system for their workshops that users had to create usernames and passwords for and fully in the space of the first three months fully I'd say half of the users who used it had to write back and say “I forgot my password, can I reset it please.”
Stephan: But the idea that we need a central repository of usernames and passwords, I mean it’s kind of ridiculous because your work has a different key than your home, right, and you’re not gonna have one key for both those things, right, I mean I don’t buy into that whole argument, sorry.
Stephan: But the idea that we need a central repository of usernames and passwords, I mean it's kind of ridiculous because your work has a different key than your home, right, and you're not gonna have one key for both those things, right, I mean I don't buy into that whole argument, sorry.
Patrick: My OpenID provider that I use is weird because when I log in with them I have to pick a series of three pictures to validate my identity every time, and we were talking about password management just the three of us in the little private chat we had for the show, but I mentioned I use KeePass, well in KeePass in the notes I have my categories which are things like toys and games, money, and I have to actually click on these things to validate my identity. And I think also, Kevin, you just said it, consensus among web developers, a bad thing in general because just such a small niche of the world, echo chamber—
Patrick: My OpenID provider that I use is weird because when I log in with them I have to pick a series of three pictures to validate my identity every time, and we were talking about password management just the three of us in the little private chat we had for the show, but I mentioned I use KeePass , well in KeePass in the notes I have my categories which are things like toys and games, money, and I have to actually click on these things to validate my identity. And I think also, Kevin, you just said it, consensus among web developers, a bad thing in general because just such a small niche of the world, echo chamber—
Kevin: Ouch!
Kevin: Ouch!
Patrick: —where it’s these people, and well meaning, but you know.
Patrick: —where it's these people, and well meaning, but you know.
Stephan: “These people,” what do you mean “these people?” (Laughter)
Stephan: “These people,” what do you mean “these people?” (笑声)
Patrick: I’m part of it! I’m part of it! (laughter) I’m just kidding also, I should say, this is very tongue in cheek. But the thing is it’s kind of an echo chamber in a way and we see things a certain way whether it be RSS or whether it be OpenID that’s going to be good for us, maybe good for the Web, but then there’s the 99.9% of everyone else.
Patrick: I'm part of it! I'm part of it! (laughter) I'm just kidding also, I should say, this is very tongue in cheek. But the thing is it's kind of an echo chamber in a way and we see things a certain way whether it be RSS or whether it be OpenID that's going to be good for us, maybe good for the Web, but then there's the 99.9% of everyone else.
Kevin: I think OpenID has got the right idea but they lack the user experience finessing that is required to sell their solution to the masses. Whereas Facebook Connect is kind of a half measure for me, like you said Stephan, what we don’t need is a central repository for everyone’s passwords; the idea behind OpenID is you get to pick your own provider or even set up your own server if you really want to if you’re that hardcore and untrusting a person, there is no central repository, anyone can set up a repository and you get to choose who you trust with those details. And the idea being that this is a decentralized system. Facebook Connect, it’s the same sort of idea as OpenID in that you’re not creating a new password for every site you visit but it is a centralized repository, it’s kind of OpenID with that central— everyone is trusting one commercial entity with their details. I think what Facebook Connect proves and what I’m hearing is that regular users do use Facebook Connect where they don’t use OpenID. Facebook Connect has shown that with the right user experience people will use a system like this, but Facebook Connect is not going to achieve all the objectives that OpenID had in mind, the decentralization, so I guess the ball is now in the web developers’ court to re-imagine OpenID in a way that can compete with the user experience that Facebook Connect has.
Kevin: I think OpenID has got the right idea but they lack the user experience finessing that is required to sell their solution to the masses. Whereas Facebook Connect is kind of a half measure for me, like you said Stephan, what we don't need is a central repository for everyone's passwords; the idea behind OpenID is you get to pick your own provider or even set up your own server if you really want to if you're that hardcore and untrusting a person, there is no central repository, anyone can set up a repository and you get to choose who you trust with those details. And the idea being that this is a decentralized system. Facebook Connect, it's the same sort of idea as OpenID in that you're not creating a new password for every site you visit but it is a centralized repository, it's kind of OpenID with that central— everyone is trusting one commercial entity with their details. I think what Facebook Connect proves and what I'm hearing is that regular users do use Facebook Connect where they don't use OpenID. Facebook Connect has shown that with the right user experience people will use a system like this, but Facebook Connect is not going to achieve all the objectives that OpenID had in mind, the decentralization, so I guess the ball is now in the web developers' court to re-imagine OpenID in a way that can compete with the user experience that Facebook Connect has.
Stephan: When they come out with MySpace Connect I’ll be there.
Stephan: When they come out with MySpace Connect I'll be there.
Kevin: (Laughs) Right, okay.
Kevin: (Laughs) Right, okay.
Stephan: Sorry, that was too easy.
Stephan: Sorry, that was too easy.
Kevin: So, the Webmonkey story here ends up admitting that OpenID is probably on the way out in and of itself, but that the floor is open here for a new standards-originating technology to come out and compete with the likes of Facebook Connect. It’s this back and forth that we always see, we all had crappy mobile phones—Patrick you still have a crappy mobile phone. (laughs)
Kevin: So, the Webmonkey story here ends up admitting that OpenID is probably on the way out in and of itself, but that the floor is open here for a new standards-originating technology to come out and compete with the likes of Facebook Connect. It's this back and forth that we always see, we all had crappy mobile phones—Patrick you still have a crappy mobile phone. (笑)
Patrick: Thank you.
帕特里克：谢谢。
Kevin: And we lived with them, and Apple came out and has this beautiful iPhone that everyone fell in love with and agreed was a superior experience that was a lot more enjoyable to use. There were a few curmudgeons out there who held out because Apple’s technology was closed and you didn’t want to tie yourself to Apple and trust Apple with everything that you put into your mobile phone—
Kevin: And we lived with them, and Apple came out and has this beautiful iPhone that everyone fell in love with and agreed was a superior experience that was a lot more enjoyable to use. There were a few curmudgeons out there who held out because Apple's technology was closed and you didn't want to tie yourself to Apple and trust Apple with everything that you put into your mobile phone—
Patrick: Grumble.
Patrick: Grumble.
Kevin: —and so Google came out with a more open alternative with the Android operating system and there’s even been efforts to create entirely open source and free software stacks for mobile phone type hardware, and so we have this ball bouncing back and forth between the worlds of open and closed and it seems like the closed often leads the way in user experience and then open runs to catch up and “a rising tide raises all boats,” is that saying?
Kevin: —and so Google came out with a more open alternative with the Android operating system and there's even been efforts to create entirely open source and free software stacks for mobile phone type hardware, and so we have this ball bouncing back and forth between the worlds of open and closed and it seems like the closed often leads the way in user experience and then open runs to catch up and “a rising tide raises all boats,” is that saying?
Patrick: Yes, you nailed it.
Patrick: Yes, you nailed it.
Kevin: I’m looking forward to the next iteration of OpenID so that I once again can stop creating new passwords for every site I visit.
Kevin: I'm looking forward to the next iteration of OpenID so that I once again can stop creating new passwords for every site I visit.
Alright, it’s time to talk about a new website and this is why we have our special guest Pascal on here today, and this new website comes to us from none other than sitepoint.com. SitePoint’s trying something new here, and that is launching a new site under a completely different domain name about a particular topic. What’s the site Pascal?
Alright, it's time to talk about a new website and this is why we have our special guest Pascal on here today, and this new website comes to us from none other than sitepoint.com. SitePoint's trying something new here, and that is launching a new site under a completely different domain name about a particular topic. What's the site Pascal?
Pascal: Everyone should open up a new tab in their browser and make their way to designfestival.com.
Pascal: Everyone should open up a new tab in their browser and make their way to designfestival.com .
Kevin: designfestival.com.
Kevin: designfestival.com.
Pascal: Indeed.
Pascal: Indeed.
Kevin: Alright, what is this site?
Kevin: Alright, what is this site?
Pascal: So it’s a new SitePoint project to basically put up a platform to host the voices from various web design professionals from around the world to share sort of tips, inspiration and their expertise in the various exciting fields of design. Like so we’ve got typography, logo design, and sort of user experience covered quite well, and we have a core blogging team and a whole range of really cool guest bloggers who will also be blogging on occasion. That’s basically it in a nutshell.
Pascal: So it's a new SitePoint project to basically put up a platform to host the voices from various web design professionals from around the world to share sort of tips, inspiration and their expertise in the various exciting fields of design. Like so we've got typography, logo design, and sort of user experience covered quite well, and we have a core blogging team and a whole range of really cool guest bloggers who will also be blogging on occasion. That's basically it in a nutshell.
Kevin: You’re one of this core blogging team.
Kevin: You're one of this core blogging team.
Pascal: Yeah, I was kindly invited to be on the core blogging team, and on that we also have Emily Smith who covers UX, she’s an information architect and does really cool stuff with Apple devices, and we also have Jennifer Farley who is covering logo design and works at Laughing Lion Design, and then I’m doing the typography sort of stuff.
Pascal: Yeah, I was kindly invited to be on the core blogging team, and on that we also have Emily Smith who covers UX, she's an information architect and does really cool stuff with Apple devices, and we also have Jennifer Farley who is covering logo design and works at Laughing Lion Design, and then I'm doing the typography sort of stuff.
Kevin: Jennifer Farley has been blogging on sitepoint.com about design for a while and I’m a big fan of her posts. What are you blogging about Pascal?
Kevin: Jennifer Farley has been blogging on sitepoint.com about design for a while and I'm a big fan of her posts. What are you blogging about Pascal?
Pascal: So the core range of topics that I’m going to be covering all basically falls under web typography, so essentially covering typography on the Web, applied to the Web, the ground rules, sort of, of typography are well established but because the Web is a very interesting and always sort of moving in dynamic medium with various new technologies coming out and considerations that need to be … considered, so I’m going to be basically looking at that and helping people out with a couple of tips and a couple of articles here and there sort of my experience and some suggestions and a couple of new fonts that might come out or how to implement @font-face web fonts or how to deal with table data or that sort of stuff.
Pascal: So the core range of topics that I'm going to be covering all basically falls under web typography, so essentially covering typography on the Web, applied to the Web, the ground rules, sort of, of typography are well established but because the Web is a very interesting and always sort of moving in dynamic medium with various new technologies coming out and considerations that need to be … considered, so I'm going to be basically looking at that and helping people out with a couple of tips and a couple of articles here and there sort of my experience and some suggestions and a couple of new fonts that might come out or how to implement @font-face web fonts or how to deal with table data or that sort of stuff.
Patrick: The big question is does it pay better than Demand Media, I’m only kidding, don’t answer that (laughter). No, just curious Pascal, are you relatively new to the SitePoint brand or have you been a member of the forums or how familiar are you with sitepoint.com?
Patrick: The big question is does it pay better than Demand Media, I'm only kidding, don't answer that (laughter). No, just curious Pascal, are you relatively new to the SitePoint brand or have you been a member of the forums or how familiar are you with sitepoint.com?
Pascal: With the company itself and with their ongoings, I suppose somewhat familiar. One of my best friends and colleagues worked with SitePoint for a brief period of time and I have written I think two or one, no two articles I think, on sitepoint.com and otherwise if I’m in Melbourne I try to give them a visit and say “hi” and I see the gang at the various tech and web conferences.
Pascal: With the company itself and with their ongoings, I suppose somewhat familiar. One of my best friends and colleagues worked with SitePoint for a brief period of time and I have written I think two or one, no two articles I think, on sitepoint.com and otherwise if I'm in Melbourne I try to give them a visit and say “hi” and I see the gang at the various tech and web conferences.
Patrick: And that kind of leads into what I was gonna ask, and this is more I guess Kevin, but way back when back in the day the webmasterbase, ecommercebase.com, a few different base type sites I think and then that was unified under SitePoint and now kind of how does this affect sitepoint.com I guess is my question whereas obviously web design is one of sitepoint.com’s core issues and now you have this new site; is this a further curation, is this a higher level of expertise, what’s the value proposition there?
Patrick: And that kind of leads into what I was gonna ask, and this is more I guess Kevin, but way back when back in the day the webmasterbase, ecommercebase.com, a few different base type sites I think and then that was unified under SitePoint and now kind of how does this affect sitepoint.com I guess is my question whereas obviously web design is one of sitepoint.com's core issues and now you have this new site; is this a further curation, is this a higher level of expertise, what's the value proposition there?
Kevin: Well, what we’ve seen is that over the years SitePoint has grown to mean a whole lot. When we first started SitePoint, web design, web development was something that one person could say to be an expert in all aspects of—just barely maybe. But I’m thinking way back in 1999, 2000 when we were first putting the site together you could call someone a webmaster and that actually meant that they were a master of the Web. These days web design development is such a multifaceted, multi-disciplined thing that no one person is an expert in everything, nor should they be, I think. And consequently to expect everyone who is a member of the SitePoint community to be interested in every piece of content that we would publish under the SitePoint banner is probably a little unreasonable. In fact, I’d say that most users who come to SitePoint are interested only in a subset of what we do, what we say, what we publish about.
Kevin: Well, what we've seen is that over the years SitePoint has grown to mean a whole lot. When we first started SitePoint, web design, web development was something that one person could say to be an expert in all aspects of—just barely maybe. But I'm thinking way back in 1999, 2000 when we were first putting the site together you could call someone a webmaster and that actually meant that they were a master of the Web. These days web design development is such a multifaceted, multi-disciplined thing that no one person is an expert in everything, nor should they be, I think. And consequently to expect everyone who is a member of the SitePoint community to be interested in every piece of content that we would publish under the SitePoint banner is probably a little unreasonable. In fact, I'd say that most users who come to SitePoint are interested only in a subset of what we do, what we say, what we publish about.
And so this site, Design Festival, represents kind of an experiment for us, a new way of publishing content on a particular subject in a particular niche, in this case design. We believe that there are people, plenty of people out there, who will be interested in every single thing that comes across the front page of designfestival.com. Now, how this links with sitepoint.com and how we maintain the SitePoint community feel once we start splitting into multiple sites like that is something that is going to be an ongoing learning experience for us, so I suppose this is step one in a multi-step experiment. If a site like this gets traffic, gets eyeballs, gets readers and followers as we would hope it to, we will then the next natural step is to bring this site back into the SitePoint community and sort of start crafting this overarching experience that once you become a fan of one of these sites you may then want to take the additional step to engage in and explore the SitePoint community as a whole. I can say that some of the ways we’re gonna do that are already planned and in fact are already well under way in terms of technical implementation, others we’re kind of going to wait and see and let our users and readers be our guide.
And so this site, Design Festival, represents kind of an experiment for us, a new way of publishing content on a particular subject in a particular niche, in this case design. We believe that there are people, plenty of people out there, who will be interested in every single thing that comes across the front page of designfestival.com. Now, how this links with sitepoint.com and how we maintain the SitePoint community feel once we start splitting into multiple sites like that is something that is going to be an ongoing learning experience for us, so I suppose this is step one in a multi-step experiment. If a site like this gets traffic, gets eyeballs, gets readers and followers as we would hope it to, we will then the next natural step is to bring this site back into the SitePoint community and sort of start crafting this overarching experience that once you become a fan of one of these sites you may then want to take the additional step to engage in and explore the SitePoint community as a whole. I can say that some of the ways we're gonna do that are already planned and in fact are already well under way in terms of technical implementation, others we're kind of going to wait and see and let our users and readers be our guide.
But quite honestly we got to the point where every time we added coverage of a new topic on SitePoint we weren’t necessarily getting more traffic, we were diluting the traffic that we already had. So the fans of PHP who were on our site weren’t that impressed when we started putting ASP.net content on SitePoint, and so for every ASP.net interested person we would gain as a fan of SitePoint we would lose a hardcore PHP developer as a fan. So this is our attempt to try and balance those competing audiences in a way that will make more people happy.
But quite honestly we got to the point where every time we added coverage of a new topic on SitePoint we weren't necessarily getting more traffic, we were diluting the traffic that we already had. So the fans of PHP who were on our site weren't that impressed when we started putting ASP.net content on SitePoint, and so for every ASP.net interested person we would gain as a fan of SitePoint we would lose a hardcore PHP developer as a fan. So this is our attempt to try and balance those competing audiences in a way that will make more people happy.
Patrick: That’s very cool; I’ll be interested to see it kind of develop. It sounds like it could be a situation where you have, I guess you already kind of said this, but these sort of separate elements but then the shared elements between them, like for example you could have all these publications but maybe they share a set of forums or a community, not that that’s gonna happen or anything like that, but that sort of thing to develop I could definitely see that.
Patrick: That's very cool; I'll be interested to see it kind of develop. It sounds like it could be a situation where you have, I guess you already kind of said this, but these sort of separate elements but then the shared elements between them, like for example you could have all these publications but maybe they share a set of forums or a community, not that that's gonna happen or anything like that, but that sort of thing to develop I could definitely see that.
Kevin: You’re thinking along the same lines we are Patrick. (laughter)
Kevin: You're thinking along the same lines we are Patrick. (笑声)
I like the Design Festival, on the surface it looks like a pretty traditional blog, but I like some of the— I’m saying this as an interested observer, I’m not actually a member of the team that’s been putting Design Festival together, so many of the things on this site I’m seeing for the first time with this launch, but in addition to what you would expect from a blog which is a list of categories like HTML and CSS, JavaScript, layout, typography, etcetera, they have these two sort of classifications for their posts which are “be inspired” or “learn”, and I like that, that some of the posts are going to teach you how to do something and some of the posts are just gonna be there to give you motivation to go out and make something yourself. Pascal, are you particularly excited about writing for one side or the other of that or are you going to be covering both?
I like the Design Festival, on the surface it looks like a pretty traditional blog, but I like some of the— I'm saying this as an interested observer, I'm not actually a member of the team that's been putting Design Festival together, so many of the things on this site I'm seeing for the first time with this launch, but in addition to what you would expect from a blog which is a list of categories like HTML and CSS, JavaScript, layout, typography, etcetera, they have these two sort of classifications for their posts which are “be inspired” or “learn”, and I like that, that some of the posts are going to teach you how to do something and some of the posts are just gonna be there to give you motivation to go out and make something yourself. Pascal, are you particularly excited about writing for one side or the other of that or are you going to be covering both?
Pascal: I think both excite me equally, I don’t know, I’m looking forward to just getting going, I don’t have really a big preference either way.
Pascal: I think both excite me equally, I don't know, I'm looking forward to just getting going, I don't have really a big preference either way.
Kevin: Alright, well if you haven’t already taken a look, listener, head over to designfestival.com and follow @DesignFestival on Twitter and let us know what you think of the new site, is it something that if you weren’t familiar with SitePoint at all and you stumbled across this site what would you think of it, is it something you’d want to subscribe to? If you think we could be doing better with it or if you have any thoughts at all please do drop us a line, feel free to comment on this podcast or follow the relevant links on designfestival.com to share your feedback directly with the team there.
Kevin: Alright, well if you haven't already taken a look, listener, head over to designfestival.com and follow @DesignFestival on Twitter and let us know what you think of the new site, is it something that if you weren't familiar with SitePoint at all and you stumbled across this site what would you think of it, is it something you'd want to subscribe to? If you think we could be doing better with it or if you have any thoughts at all please do drop us a line, feel free to comment on this podcast or follow the relevant links on designfestival.com to share your feedback directly with the team there.
So, yeah, thanks for giving us the scoop on that, Pascal, this is now the time of the podcast where we normally have our host spotlights, and we are down one host this week, so Pascal could I tempt you to share with us a spotlight, something that you think our listeners might be interested in checking out?
So, yeah, thanks for giving us the scoop on that, Pascal, this is now the time of the podcast where we normally have our host spotlights, and we are down one host this week, so Pascal could I tempt you to share with us a spotlight, something that you think our listeners might be interested in checking out?
Pascal: Yeah, sure, so I had a couple of ideas in mind but I guess since we’re talking about design related things, or at least that was the big message for me I suppose, I feel it would be inadequate for me not to mention John Boardley’s awesome work on ilovetypography.com. He’s pushing I think last I checked over 69,000 RSS subscribers alone, so I think that number might have gone up since then but I would highly recommend anyone who is in the slightest way interested in good text, legible text and enticing text, text that really honors the content that’s being set that invites you to really read and that makes it easy to skim, easy to browse, to head over to ilovetypography.com.
Pascal: Yeah, sure, so I had a couple of ideas in mind but I guess since we're talking about design related things, or at least that was the big message for me I suppose, I feel it would be inadequate for me not to mention John Boardley's awesome work on ilovetypography.com . He's pushing I think last I checked over 69,000 RSS subscribers alone, so I think that number might have gone up since then but I would highly recommend anyone who is in the slightest way interested in good text, legible text and enticing text, text that really honors the content that's being set that invites you to really read and that makes it easy to skim, easy to browse, to head over to ilovetypography.com.
Kevin: I’ve tried to subscribe to that site before thinking that I loved typography and what I discovered is that this guy loves typography way more than I will ever love typography. (laughs) Would you say it’s for those who have more of a casual interest in typography on the Web that following your writings at Design Festival will give them a nice highlights reel of what you’d get at I Love Typography?
Kevin: I've tried to subscribe to that site before thinking that I loved typography and what I discovered is that this guy loves typography way more than I will ever love typography. (laughs) Would you say it's for those who have more of a casual interest in typography on the Web that following your writings at Design Festival will give them a nice highlights reel of what you'd get at I Love Typography?
Pascal: The I Love Typography website is not — it’s more dedicated to good type and good typography, it’s not dedicated to good web typography, although it gets a mention here and there, and good articles or links or videos or whatever material does get plugged on it. If you’re interested in design, design of the Web and therefore you should also be fundamentally interested in setting text on the Web because it’s such a fundamental component of content on the Web, then I would probably recommend head over to Design Festival and check out the typography section.
Pascal: The I Love Typography website is not — it's more dedicated to good type and good typography, it's not dedicated to good web typography, although it gets a mention here and there, and good articles or links or videos or whatever material does get plugged on it. If you're interested in design, design of the Web and therefore you should also be fundamentally interested in setting text on the Web because it's such a fundamental component of content on the Web, then I would probably recommend head over to Design Festival and check out the typography section.
Patrick: So what you’re saying is that there’s more than Arial and Verdana? That’s got to be the worst comment ever to make to someone that loves typography. (laughs)
Patrick: So what you're saying is that there's more than Arial and Verdana? That's got to be the worst comment ever to make to someone that loves typography. (笑)
Kevin: You need to subscribe to this new site Patrick. Yeah, I’d say I Love Typography lets you share in the frustration of people like yourself who know what you can achieve with type and then are faced with the limitations—the gradually loosening limitations but not limitations anyway—of what you can do on the Web. Stephan, why don’t you lead us off with your spotlight.
Kevin: You need to subscribe to this new site Patrick. Yeah, I'd say I Love Typography lets you share in the frustration of people like yourself who know what you can achieve with type and then are faced with the limitations—the gradually loosening limitations but not limitations anyway—of what you can do on the Web. Stephan, why don't you lead us off with your spotlight.
Stephan: So it’s been on the Internet for a couple days now but there’s a system wide terminal hotkey called Visor, it’s this little bundle that you can use to bring up that terminal just with a simple key combination that you set. It requires SIMBL but other than that it’s simple and it’s awesome. I always hate having to go up to spotlight or do command search to get the terminal to come up so this is great for me.
Stephan: So it's been on the Internet for a couple days now but there's a system wide terminal hotkey called Visor , it's this little bundle that you can use to bring up that terminal just with a simple key combination that you set. It requires SIMBL but other than that it's simple and it's awesome. I always hate having to go up to spotlight or do command search to get the terminal to come up so this is great for me.
Kevin: Ah, I love this thing! I discovered about three years ago when the creator of Quicksilver, the much-beloved and now much0ignored application launcher for the Mac, he wrote this original Visor and, yeah, it was like for those people who play first person shooter games and are used to having a hot key that pops down the chat window over top of their game so they can quickly toss an insult at whoever they’re about to shoot, (laughter) it kind of turns the Mac Terminal into that, it’s this sort of thing that can pop down over your screen over whatever you’re doing and you can quickly fire off a command into the command line and then tuck it back away. But I remember it got really buggy and I guess like Quicksilver the developer started neglecting it over time; I guess he got some paying gigs that took his attention away from his free hobbies like Quicksilver and Visor. But it looks like someone else picked up the torch and started maintaining it again so this is great news.
Kevin: Ah, I love this thing! I discovered about three years ago when the creator of Quicksilver, the much-beloved and now much0ignored application launcher for the Mac, he wrote this original Visor and, yeah, it was like for those people who play first person shooter games and are used to having a hot key that pops down the chat window over top of their game so they can quickly toss an insult at whoever they're about to shoot, (laughter) it kind of turns the Mac Terminal into that, it's this sort of thing that can pop down over your screen over whatever you're doing and you can quickly fire off a command into the command line and then tuck it back away. But I remember it got really buggy and I guess like Quicksilver the developer started neglecting it over time; I guess he got some paying gigs that took his attention away from his free hobbies like Quicksilver and Visor. But it looks like someone else picked up the torch and started maintaining it again so this is great news.
Kevin: Patrick what’s your spotlight?
Kevin: Patrick what's your spotlight?
Patrick: I’m just glad Pascal didn’t spotlight the “I Just Had Sex” video by The Lonely Island because I’ve already got that covered a few episodes ago, so we’ve already covered that ground, I know it’s amazing but we have to move forward, no.
Patrick: I'm just glad Pascal didn't spotlight the “I Just Had Sex” video by The Lonely Island because I've already got that covered a few episodes ago, so we've already covered that ground, I know it's amazing but we have to move forward, no.
So my spotlight, and this is not my spotlight but a friend of the podcast, Wayne Sutton, who’s been on a couple times just today announced that he’s taken a new role as the director of digital for TechMedia which is a parent company of Tech Journal South and some events in the Raleigh area, and my spotlight though is the website for his brand new baby boy micahdsutton.com, Wayne being kind of the digital guy that he is of course already had the domain name registered and of course already had this site ready to go for when the baby was born which was on January 20th, I believe, and so you’ve got this website with pictures and video and not only is it a neat little thing but it’s also an example for all digital parents to follow so you have to be at least at this level.
So my spotlight, and this is not my spotlight but a friend of the podcast, Wayne Sutton, who's been on a couple times just today announced that he's taken a new role as the director of digital for TechMedia which is a parent company of Tech Journal South and some events in the Raleigh area, and my spotlight though is the website for his brand new baby boy micahdsutton.com , Wayne being kind of the digital guy that he is of course already had the domain name registered and of course already had this site ready to go for when the baby was born which was on January 20th, I believe, and so you've got this website with pictures and video and not only is it a neat little thing but it's also an example for all digital parents to follow so you have to be at least at this level.
Kevin: Congratulations. My spotlight is a nice quick and dirty application from the fine folks at Google. I think a lot of people originally got excited by Google Earth, the desktop application that lets you browse satellite imagery of the earth in 3D, and then sort of fell away because it was more convenient to just go to Google Maps in your browser. Well, this one is one that I hope will bring you back to check out Google Earth again if you haven’t checked it out lately. This is a little web application put together in the spare time of some folks at Google called Google Follow Your World, and it’s at followyourworld.appspot.com, and the idea here is it’s a site that will notify you by email whenever Google gets new satellite imagery in Google Earth for a particular point in the world that you specify or as many points as you like. So if you’re like me I like to see the changes that are happening to my home town where I grew up because I don’t live there anymore, and also my girlfriend is from the country in a part of Australia that doesn’t have good satellite imagery so I’m always interested to see if Google has updated their coverage of that part of the world with better photography that will give you a clearer picture of where she’s from. And so what I do is go to followyourworld.appspot.com, mark that spot in the world, give it a name and tell them the email address to notify whenever that part of the world gets updated imagery, that’s all there is to it. You can pick as many locations as you want and you’ll get a nice little email in your inbox the next time Google updates their satellite imagery for that part of the world in Google Earth. Nice little freebie there.
Kevin: Congratulations. My spotlight is a nice quick and dirty application from the fine folks at Google. I think a lot of people originally got excited by Google Earth , the desktop application that lets you browse satellite imagery of the earth in 3D, and then sort of fell away because it was more convenient to just go to Google Maps in your browser. Well, this one is one that I hope will bring you back to check out Google Earth again if you haven't checked it out lately. This is a little web application put together in the spare time of some folks at Google called Google Follow Your World, and it's at followyourworld.appspot.com , and the idea here is it's a site that will notify you by email whenever Google gets new satellite imagery in Google Earth for a particular point in the world that you specify or as many points as you like. So if you're like me I like to see the changes that are happening to my home town where I grew up because I don't live there anymore, and also my girlfriend is from the country in a part of Australia that doesn't have good satellite imagery so I'm always interested to see if Google has updated their coverage of that part of the world with better photography that will give you a clearer picture of where she's from. And so what I do is go to followyourworld.appspot.com, mark that spot in the world, give it a name and tell them the email address to notify whenever that part of the world gets updated imagery, that's all there is to it. You can pick as many locations as you want and you'll get a nice little email in your inbox the next time Google updates their satellite imagery for that part of the world in Google Earth. Nice little freebie there.
So that’s it for the show today but before we go we have some news about an upcoming show that I mentioned at the very beginning, this is #98 which means we are only two weeks away from our 100th episode of the SitePoint Podcast, I cannot believe we are there already, and every week seems to go by quicker, it’s like we’ve been accelerating towards #100. So we can’t let a milestone like that go by without doing something a little special, and what we’re going to do is do a live show. This is going to be a live audio show hosted on USTREAM [actually it will be on TinyChat, not USTREAM —ed.] and what we’re going to do is try and get as many of our favorite guests from past shows of the SitePoint Podcast to come back on, give us a little update, give us a mini-interview, and we will do this with a live chat room where you our listeners can follow along, ask us questions, ask them questions, and really we’re just gonna make it a two-hour online party to celebrate the 100th episode of this podcast. So we’re still about a week and a half away from the recording of that at this point, and of course that will be recorded and edited up for a regular podcast release, assuming there’s anything at all in that online party that we can use as a traditional podcast to publish later; I’m sure we’ll get at least an hour of good material out of those two hours. But if you would like to join us for the live broadcast, and we hope you do, mark this date and time in your calendar: Sunday, February 13th from 4 to 6PM, that’s Pacific time, so on the west coast of the United States that’s 4 to 6PM, if you’re on the east coast that will be what—
So that's it for the show today but before we go we have some news about an upcoming show that I mentioned at the very beginning, this is #98 which means we are only two weeks away from our 100th episode of the SitePoint Podcast, I cannot believe we are there already, and every week seems to go by quicker, it's like we've been accelerating towards #100. So we can't let a milestone like that go by without doing something a little special, and what we're going to do is do a live show. This is going to be a live audio show hosted on USTREAM [actually it will be on TinyChat, not USTREAM —ed.] and what we're going to do is try and get as many of our favorite guests from past shows of the SitePoint Podcast to come back on, give us a little update, give us a mini-interview, and we will do this with a live chat room where you our listeners can follow along, ask us questions, ask them questions, and really we're just gonna make it a two-hour online party to celebrate the 100th episode of this podcast. So we're still about a week and a half away from the recording of that at this point, and of course that will be recorded and edited up for a regular podcast release, assuming there's anything at all in that online party that we can use as a traditional podcast to publish later; I'm sure we'll get at least an hour of good material out of those two hours. But if you would like to join us for the live broadcast, and we hope you do, mark this date and time in your calendar: Sunday, February 13th from 4 to 6PM , that's Pacific time, so on the west coast of the United States that's 4 to 6PM, if you're on the east coast that will be what—
Patrick: 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. which is GMT minus 5.
Patrick: 7:00 to 9:00 pm which is GMT minus 5.
Kevin: There you go. And if neither of those are your time zones and you have trouble with time zones check out the SitePoint Podcast page at sitepoint.com/podcast, we’ll have a link up there to a page that will tell you the exact time in your local time zone. Just head over to tinychat.com/sitepoint, that’s the channel where we will be broadcasting live from 4 to 6PM on Sunday, February 13th. Hope to see you there; we’ll include another reminder about this show in our interview next week, and Patrick speaking of that interview that’s already in the can.
凯文：你去。 And if neither of those are your time zones and you have trouble with time zones check out the SitePoint Podcast page at sitepoint.com/podcast , we'll have a link up there to a page that will tell you the exact time in your local time zone . Just head over to tinychat.com/sitepoint , that's the channel where we will be broadcasting live from 4 to 6PM on Sunday, February 13th. Hope to see you there; we'll include another reminder about this show in our interview next week, and Patrick speaking of that interview that's already in the can.
Patrick: It is, I spoke to Jay Baer and Amber Naslund, the co-authors of The Now Revolution today and it was a really fun interview, so look forward to that episode number 99.
Patrick: It is, I spoke to Jay Baer and Amber Naslund, the co-authors of The Now Revolution today and it was a really fun interview, so look forward to that episode number 99.
Kevin: So that’s coming up in Podcast 99 next week, and just a couple of days after that we will have our live recording of Podcast #100. Hope to see you there and that’s it for this Podcast #98. I’d like to thank Simon Pascal Klein for being on the show here today, thanks Simon.
Kevin: So that's coming up in Podcast 99 next week, and just a couple of days after that we will have our live recording of Podcast #100. Hope to see you there and that's it for this Podcast #98. I'd like to thank Simon Pascal Klein for being on the show here today, thanks Simon.
Pascal: No worries, cheers.
Pascal: No worries, cheers.
Kevin: Simon, can you let our listeners know where to find you if they are big fans of your writings.
Kevin: Simon, can you let our listeners know where to find you if they are big fans of your writings.
Pascal: Yeah, grab me at klepas.org.
Pascal: Yeah, grab me at klepas.org .
Kevin: And they can follow you on Twitter @klepas.
Kevin: And they can follow you on Twitter @klepas .
Pascal: Yep, that’s my Twitter handle, @klepas.
Pascal: Yep, that's my Twitter handle, @klepas.
Kevin: Excellent. Guys let’s go around the table.
Kevin: Excellent. Guys let's go around the table.
Patrick: I am Patrick O’Keefe of the iFroggy Network, I blog at managingcommunities.com on Twitter @iFroggy.
Patrick: I am Patrick O'Keefe of the iFroggy Network, I blog at managingcommunities.com on Twitter @iFroggy .
Stephan: I’m Stephan Segraves, you can find me on Twitter @ssegraves and I blog at badice.com.
斯蒂芬(Stephan)：我是斯蒂芬·塞格雷夫斯(Stephan Segraves)，您可以在Twitter @ssegraves上找到我，我的博客位于badice.com 。
Kevin: And our usual co-host Brad Williams missing in action we hope you dig yourself out of the snow and join us for our #100. You can follow Brad @williamsba, and I’m Kevin Yank, you can follow me on Twitter @sentience and you can follow SitePoint @sitepointdotcom. Visit us at sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. The SitePoint Podcast is produced by Carl Longnecker. Thanks for listening, bye, bye.
Kevin: And our usual co-host Brad Williams missing in action we hope you dig yourself out of the snow and join us for our #100. You can follow Brad @williamsba , and I'm Kevin Yank, you can follow me on Twitter @sentience and you can follow SitePoint @sitepointdotcom . 请访问sitepoint.com/podcast访问我们，以对该节目发表评论并订阅以自动接收每个节目。 The SitePoint Podcast is produced by Carl Longnecker. Thanks for listening, bye, bye.
Theme music by Mike Mella.
Theme music by Mike Mella .
Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.
Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we're doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.
翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-98-a-change-in-the-matrix/
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