SitePoint播客＃54：与Derek Powazek建立社区，第2部分

Episode 54 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week, Kevin Yank (@sentience) and Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy) conclude their conversation with Derek Powazek (@fraying), co-creator of JPG Magazine and creator of Fray, about the care and feeding of web communities. A complete transcript of the interviews is provided below.

SitePoint Podcast的 第54集现已发布！ 本周，Kevin Yank( @sentience )和Patrick O'Keefe( @iFroggy )结束了与JPG杂志共同创始人， Fray的创建者Derek Powazek ( @fraying )的对话，讨论了网络社区的照顾和供养。 下面提供了采访的完整笔录。

下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)

You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：

• SitePoint Podcast #54: Building Communities with Derek Powazek, Part 2 (MP3, 33.4MB)

  SitePoint Podcast＃54：与Derek Powazek建立社区，第2部分 ( MP3，33.4MB )

面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)

Kevin: March 26th, 2010. Dealing with destructive users; the communities of Facebook and Twitter; and the role of design in community sites. I’m Kevin Yank and this is the SitePoint Podcast #54: Building Communities with Derek Powazek, Part 2.

凯文： 2010年3月26日。与破坏性用户打交道； Facebook和Twitter的社区； 以及设计在社区网站中的作用。 我是Kevin Yank，这是SitePoint播客＃54：与Derek Powazek建立社区，第2部分。

This week, we’re picking up right where we left off in Podcast #52 with the second and final part of our conversation with Derek Powazek and Patrick O’Keefe about the ins and outs of web communities. When we left you, we were talking about what to do when your community grows to a point that problem users are taking up a lot of your time and resources.

本周，我们将在Podcast＃52中停下来的地方继续前进，与Derek Powazek和Patrick O'Keefe进行的第二部分也是最后一部分有关网络社区的来龙去脉。 当我们离开您时，我们正在谈论的是当您的社区发展到某个问题时，用户正在占用您大量的时间和资源。

Kevin: So I realize we could spend an hour talking about how to handle these challenges—

凯文：所以我意识到我们可以花一个小时来讨论如何应对这些挑战，

Derek: And I have.

德里克：我有 。

Kevin: Can you boil it down? Do you just need to make the hard call and say look this isn’t what we’re doing here. I need to feel okay about banning you even though this may damage you permanently?

凯文：你可以把它煮下来吗？ 您是否只需要打个电话，说这不是我们在这里所做的。 即使这可能会永久性损害您，我也要对禁止您感到满意吗？

Derek: Well, I think as far as take away from this we need to say several things. Every community needs a terms of service and a set of community guidelines. And in those documents it should say “We reserve the right to deny service to anyone for any reason, period.” Unless you’re the government you can say that. And you should. And you should make it clear what kind of things aren’t okay. And then, yeah, if you have a toxic person who is bad for the community you have to make the hard call of saying I’m really sorry but you’re done here, there are lots of other sites on the Web and maybe you’d be a better fit elsewhere. It gets back to that admitting to ourselves and everyone else that every community is exclusionary to some extent, and that that’s part of what the definition of what a community is.

德里克(Derek)：好吧，我想就这一点而言，我们需要说几件事。 每个社区都需要一个服务条款和一套社区准则。 在这些文件中应注明“我们保留出于任何原因，任何时期拒绝向任何人提供服务的权利。” 除非你是政府，否则你可以这样说。 那你应该 而且您应该弄清楚哪种事情不好。 然后，是的，如果您有一个对社区不利的有毒人，就必须打个招呼，说我真的很抱歉，但是您已经在这里完成了，网上还有很多其他网站，也许您会比其他地方更合适。 可以回溯到我们自己和其他所有人，每个社区在某种程度上都是排斥性的，这就是对社区的定义的一部分。

Kevin: Derek, I had the pleasure of watching you give a talk on this sort of stuff in Perth late in 2009…

凯文：德里克，我很高兴看到您在2009年底在珀斯就这种事情发表演讲……

Derek: Edge of the Web! That was so much fun.

德里克：网络的 边缘 ！ 那真是太有趣了。

Kevin: …and I will be sure to link to those slides in the show notes…

凯文： …而且我一定会链接到展示笔记中的那些幻灯片 …

Derek: Oh, great.

德里克：哦，太好了。

Kevin: …if people want to read a little further in detail about your thoughts on this sort of stuff.

凯文： …如果人们想进一步详细了解您对此类事物的想法。

Derek: Excellent.

德里克：好极了 。

Kevin: But speaking about large communities, let’s talk about the giants, the Facebooks and the Twitters out there. There is a temptation to think of Facebook as a community and to think of Twitter as a community, but really, as you said earlier, these are really tools; they’re raw material for building communities.

凯文：但是说到大型社区，让我们谈谈那里的巨人，Facebook和Twitter。 倾向于将Facebook视为社区，而将Twitter视为社区，但实际上，正如您之前所说的，这些确实是工具。 它们是建立社区的原材料。

Derek: Hmm-mm.

德里克：嗯。

Kevin: And yet it does seem like Facebook and Twitter do have communities of their own, and as you alluded to earlier, we always hear about them in relation to attempted changes by these services. But are these the vocal minorities? I mean are these communities illusions, so to speak?

凯文：但是，看来Facebook和Twitter确实有自己的社区，正如您前面提到的，我们总是听到有关这些服务试图进行更改的消息。 但是这些是声乐少数吗？ 我的意思是这些社区的幻想，可以这么说吗？

Derek: Oh, that makes me want to say “Well in philosophy class you realize all perception is illusion”, but that’s probably taking the conversation in a different direction.

德里克(Derek)：哦，这让我想说“在哲学课上，您意识到所有感知都是幻觉”，但这可能使对话朝着不同的方向发展。

Kevin: Right.

凯文：对。

Derek: I think the two examples are illustrative. Facebook and Twitter are both incredibly decentralized communities where there is no central watering hole, right. So it’s hub and spoke system where you’re at the center and you have tendrils out to people, to certain people, and everybody has one of those wheels and they’re all overlapping. So it’s a social network more than a central community.

德里克：我认为这两个例子是说明性的。 Facebook和Twitter都是分散的社区，那里没有中央水坑，对。 因此，它是轮毂和轮辐系统，您处于中心位置，向所有人(某些人)都有卷须，每个人都有其中一个轮子，而且它们都重叠在一起。 因此，它不仅仅是社区，而是社交网络。

Kevin: And in Twitter’s case there’s no watering hole but there’s a fire hose.

凯文：在Twitter的情况下，没有水坑，但有消防水带。

Derek: Yeah! Well, in Twitter, so that’s what they have in common, these overlapping social circles. But what’s different is Facebook at least traditionally has required bilateral opt-ins, so basically I have to say yes to you and you have to say yes to me and then we have connection. Where as Twitter is only one way; you just identify someone you want to follow. In that way it’s like Flickr which is a lower overhead but more distant social structure, so it’s not about creating friendship links it’s about just following people who you seem interested in. And Facebook, traditionally anyway, defaulted to private so you really couldn’t see anything unless you knew someone. Whereas Twitter traditionally defaulted to public so it was much more about performing in public than Facebook. What’s interesting is they’ve both moved towards each other. So Facebook has changed their privacy defaults in what I think is a totally backhanded, sneaky way, and is trying to get more and more of their content to be public, which is gonna be really interesting to watch as people realize that Google is now going to index everything they say as public and it’s going to be available to their bosses. And that was the whole reason Facebook was popular was it was out of sight of your boss and mom and dad and brother… And Twitter more and more is adding groups and lists and things which are getting towards, I think, Facebook’s version of self-grouping. It’s been fascinating to watch them respond to each other in that way.

德里克：是的！ 好吧，在Twitter中，这就是这些重叠的社交圈的共同点。 但是不同的是，Facebook至少在传统上至少需要双边选择加入，因此基本上我必须对您说是，您必须对我说是，然后我们就建立了联系。 推特只是其中一种方式； 您只需要确定要关注的人即可。 这样，就像Flickr一样，它的开销较低，但社交结构更遥远，因此，它并不是建立友情链接，而是仅仅关注您似乎感兴趣的人。而且，无论如何，Facebook传统上还是默认为私有的，所以您真的不能除非你认识某人，否则什么都看不到。 Twitter传统上默认不公开，所以与Facebook相比，公开表演更多。 有趣的是他们俩已经相互接近了。 因此，Facebook改变了隐私默认设置，我认为这是一种完全反手，偷偷摸摸的方式，并且正试图将越来越多的内容公开，这将引起人们的极大关注，因为人们意识到Google现在正在发展索引他们所说的公开内容，并将其提供给老板。 这就是Facebook受欢迎的全部原因，因为它在您的老板，父母和父亲以及兄弟的视线范围之外。而且Twitter越来越多地添加了群组和列表，并且事情正在朝着Facebook自我的方向发展。分组。 看着他们以这种方式互相回应真是令人着迷。

What’s further interesting to me is that if you— I know some of the folks who work at Twitter, so I’m not speaking for them, but if you asked them are they a community they’d say no. They’d say we’re like email; we’re a distribution system. Which I think is mostly untrue. They’re not a distribution system; they’re not built into web servers, it’s not a global network of Twitter, it’s Twitter.com and their API. So there is a Twitter community, it’s just that every individual’s Twitter community is different and slightly overlapping with everyone else’s. I think what’s really fascinating about it is it’s the first community I can really think of where—virtual community, I can think of—where most of it happens by API, like very little of it is actually taking place on Twitter.com, and that’s new, that’s unusual, and I think points in a certain direction for the Web and for other things.

对我来说，更有趣的是，如果您-我认识一些在Twitter工作的人，那么我不是在为他们说话，但是如果您问他们是他们的社区，他们会说不。 他们会说我们就像电子邮件； 我们是一个分销系统。 我认为这大部分是不正确的。 他们不是分配系统； 它们不是内置于Web服务器中，不是Twitter的全球网络，而是Twitter.com及其API。 因此，这里有一个Twitter社区，只是每个人的Twitter社区都是不同的，并且与其他人的Twitter社区略有重叠。 我认为这是真正令人着迷的地方，它是我真正想到的第一个社区-我可以想到的虚拟社区-其中大部分是通过API发生的，就像实际上很少在Twitter.com上进行，并且那是新的，那是不寻常的，我认为这为Web和其他事物指明了一个方向。

Kevin: Mmm. We interviewed Alex Payne from Twitter, the head of their Twitter API, and he admitted that that’s something they fell into by accident, but he counts it as one of if not their biggest strength at the moment.

凯文：嗯。 我们采访了Twitter API负责人Twitter的Alex Payne，他承认这是他们无意中陷入的，但他认为这是目前最大的优势之一。

Derek: Absolutely. Their early and copious use of the API really enabled this whole ecosystem of Twitter related stuff to come into the world. And it’s why they leapfrogged all over everyone and no one could catch up to them. Pownce, which was a better web experience, more sophisticated tool, just couldn’t keep up because Twitter had the ball and never let it go. That’s a terrible sports metaphor. I think it’s because they released an API and so all the action was there. Because when it comes right down to it, sending a hundred and forty characters to my friends is not a hard thing to do, so Twitter has to stay ahead of how easy it is to implement that feature elsewhere by always being first with any new interesting adoptions. So how many iPhone clients does Twitter have? I don’t know but it’s more than any company would ever need, whereas Facebook is the opposite approach where it really is all about Facebook.com, right, they have some ties into it, but really it’s all about this one website. So in that way it is more of a centralized community, but there’s still no central watering hole, there’s no equivalent of the Flickr Help forum which is accessible to every single member of Flickr, right.

德里克：当然。 他们对API的早期大量使用确实使Twitter相关内容的整个生态系统得以推向世界。 这就是为什么他们跨越所有人，而没人能追上他们的原因。 Pownce是一种更好的Web体验，更先进的工具，只是跟不上潮流，因为Twitter掌控了球，永不放手。 那是一个可怕的体育比喻。 我认为这是因为他们发布了API，因此所有操作都在那里。 因为当涉及到它时，向我的朋友发送一百四十个字符并不是一件容易的事，因此Twitter必须始终领先于任何新事物，以保持领先于在其他地方实现该功能的容易程度收养。 那么Twitter有多少个iPhone客户端？ 我不知道，但是这比任何一家公司都需要的要多，而Facebook是相反的方法，它实际上完全是关于Facebook.com的，对，他们之间有一些联系，但实际上，这全都与这个网站有关。 这样，它更多地是一个集中的社区，但仍然没有中央的注水坑，没有Flickr帮助论坛的等效项，对Flickr的每个成员都是可以访问的，对。

Kevin: And if ever a forum overwhelmed by its success it must be the Flickr Help forum, it’s impossible to find anything in there.

凯文(Kevin)：如果一个论坛因其成功而淹没，那一定是Flickr帮助论坛，在那儿找不到任何东西。

Derek: Well, I got to say I’m glad it’s not my job to manage that forum because my hat is off to the people who do.

德里克(Derek)：好的，我要说很高兴，管理这个论坛不是我的工作，因为我的帽子由做此事的人承担。

Kevin: So, speaking of the Flickr Help forum, a strong community can be a blessing or it can be a curse. Have you ever advised a site manager not to devote energy to community building?

凯文：因此，在Flickr帮助论坛上，一个强大的社区可能是福气，也可能是诅咒。 您是否曾经建议过站点管理员不要将精力投入社区建设？

Derek: Yes. Oftentimes when clients come to me what they’re thinking about is how great their community will be in a year when everyone loves them. And all of the value that that will create for their brand or their magazine or newspaper or whatever. And my job early on is to get them to stop thinking about how great that community will be, because obviously it will be awesome, and to get them to start thinking instead about tool building because that’s really what we’re talking about. That’s why I said in the beginning you can’t create a community, you can only create a playground, you can create a structure. And so once you start talking about structure then you have to talk what are the rules, what do people actually do here, why is this thing here? You have an existing community out there, hopefully; usually you call them an audience or consumers, and right now they aren’t talking to each other, at least not fostered by you. If you gave them the microphone what would they say? So you might want to do some user testing. And if you do user testing and you give them a microphone and they say “I hate you!”, then maybe you don’t want to give them the microphone.

德里克：是的。 通常，当客户来找我时，他们在想的是在每个人都喜欢他们的一年中，他们的社区会变得多么伟大。 以及所有将为其品牌，杂志或报纸等创造的价值。 我早早就工作就是让他们停止有关如何大，社区将是思考，因为很明显 ，这将是真棒，并让他们开始，而不是想着建筑工具，因为这真的是我们谈论。 这就是为什么我在开始时说过，您不能创建社区，只能创建游乐场，可以创建结构。 因此，一旦您开始谈论结构，那么您就必须谈论什么规则，人们在这里实际做什么，为什么在这里呢？ 希望您已有一个现有社区； 通常，您称他们为听众或消费者，而现在他们并没有互相交谈，至少不是您培养的。 如果您给他们麦克风，他们会怎么说？ 因此，您可能需要进行一些用户测试。 而且，如果您进行了用户测试，然后给他们一个麦克风，而他们说“我讨厌您！”，那么您可能不想给他们麦克风。

Kevin: Yeah.

凯文：是的。

Derek: If you’re Microsoft, if you’re an insurance company, God forbid. Imagine like the publicly accessible forum for AIG, right? There are certain companies that are so damaged by their reputation or their actions in business that simply adding community tools to the mix won’t make things better and will likely make them worse.

德里克：如果你是微软公司，如果你是一家保险公司，上帝禁止。 想象一下像AIG的公开论坛，对吗？ 有些公司受到声誉或业务行为的损害，以至于仅仅将社区工具添加到组合中并不能使事情变得更好，而且可能会使他们变得更糟。

Kevin: So if your business plan does not involve people liking your company.

凯文：因此，如果您的商业计划不涉及喜欢您公司的人。

Derek: Yeah. And everybody likes to talk about TiVo, as I just was, but everybody loves their TiVo, so that’s a natural thing. Though I have to take my hat off to the one great exception here is I think it was Shell Oil created a forum where it was like we want to talk about global sustainability and environmental issues and we want to hear from you, and we’re a giant monolithic oil company, which would fall into that hated category I think, in general, but they bravely put it out there and they invited the hate and they had people there to deal with it and to talk back and start this conversation. And an amazing thing can happen when you do that, which is if you give the microphone to people who hate you and they can yell into it for a little while, after they yell into it then they kind of feel better and they don’t hate you as much. That’s a very brave, very difficult thing to do. It’s like playing with bombs; you have to be really careful with that, but it can work and they did it. I think it was Shell Talk or Shell Care; I have to look up the URL. [Derek later let me know it was called Tell Shell, but is now defunct. -Kev.]

德里克：是的。 就像我以前一样，每个人都喜欢谈论TiVo，但是每个人都喜欢他们的TiVo，所以这很自然。 尽管我不得不说一个大例外，但我认为这是壳牌石油公司创建的一个论坛，就像我们要谈论全球可持续性和环境问题，我们希望听到您的来信，一家大型的整体石油公司，我认为通常会属于这种仇恨类别，但他们勇敢地将其放到了那里，他们邀请了这种仇恨，并在那里有很多人来处理它，并进行回覆并开始这种对话。 当您这样做时，可能会发生一件令人惊奇的事情，那就是如果您将麦克风交给讨厌您的人，他们可以大声喊叫一会儿，当他们大喊大叫之后，他们会感觉更好，而他们不会讨厌你 这是一件非常勇敢，非常困难的事情。 就像玩炸弹一样。 您必须对此非常小心，但是它可以正常工作，而他们做到了。 我认为是Shell Talk或Shell Care。 我必须查找URL。 [Derek后来让我知道它叫Tell Shell ，但是现在不存在了。 -凯夫。

Patrick: You know when people ask about whether or not I should do this online community thing regardless of whatever that is, I mean I don’t try to scare them away from it, but I tend to focus on like what does it take to do this actually, because it’s not really about XYZ, you won’t be able to make five or a hundred thousand dollars in a year, or you’ll have this number of people, or any of these things that would be the positive things. It’s almost like what do you have to do to get it there. So what is the time, do you have people you can dedicate to this? Do you have full time people you can dedicate to this? Do you have a budget for this? Are you going to afford to keep this online and running? Even if it’s not necessarily going well after a few months or six months or however long it is, you know, do you have the resources to stand behind this? Because it may look flashy when you have a company like TiVo that has a community that’s strong, and obviously it’s attractive for a number of reasons, but it takes a lot of work and time and effort and dedication and buy-in to actually get there. So I always kind of run through the list of things, well okay, you need this person, you need this, you need to have this commitment, this amount of money, these resources, and so on. And I don’t try to scare people away from this because I love this, but it’s so much harder then a lot of people realize.

帕特里克(Patrick)：您知道当人们问我是否应该做这个在线社区活动时，无论它是什么，我的意思是我不会试图吓them他们，但我倾向于专注于像这样处理实际执行此操作是因为与XYZ无关，您一年将无法赚到五，十万美元，或者您将拥有这么多的人，或者其中的任何东西都是积极的东西。 几乎就像您需要做什么才能到达那里。 那么现在几点了，您有可以献身的人吗？ 您有专职人员吗？ 您有预算吗？ 您是否负担得起使它保持在线和运行状态？ 即使几个月或六个月后不一定运行良好，还是持续多长时间，您知道吗，您是否有资源来支持它？ 因为当您拥有TiVo这样的公司时，它看上去很浮华，而该公司拥有强大的社区，显然，由于多种原因，它具有吸引力，但是要真正到达那里，需要大量的工作，时间和精力以及奉献和投入。 。 因此，我总是会仔细检查所有事情，好吧，您需要这个人，您需要这个，您需要这个承诺，这笔钱，这些资源，等等。 而且，我不会因为我喜欢这个而吓people人，但是要比许多人意识到的要难得多。

Derek: Yeah. I think the other key thing from the outset, if you’re talking about creating an environment where there wasn’t one before, is to sit down and have a very sober conversation about what does the success case look like and what does the failure case look like, and attach it to metrics like if we get in the next month we create a thousand accounts, ten of which actually log in more than once, is that a success case or a fail case? And that way in a month you can look at it and say is it working or not, and if it’s not you need to fess up to it right away and either change it or give up, adjust your— Adjust it, like see if you can make changes to meet that success case. A lot of times, especially with smaller startups, we’re so in love with the idea of whatever we’re gonna do that we don’t stop to think well what if nobody comes to play or what if just a few people come to play, is it still worth doing? And then if you have to make up those numbers after it’s already launched then you’re always gonna fudge it to say well we got a hundred users to use it this month so that’s what success is, a hundred users. It’s much better if you can do it from the outset as soberly as possible, that way you have something tangible you can look at and say is this working. Because community can be so fuzzy oftentimes its hard to say what is a success.

德里克：是的。 我认为从一开始的另一个关键问题是，如果您要谈论创建一个以前没有的环境，那就坐下来，就成功案例的外观和失败进行非常清醒的讨论案例，然后将其附加到指标，例如，如果下个月我们创建了一个千个帐户，其中有十个实际上多次登录，这是成功案例还是失败案例？ 这样一来，您可以在一个月内查看它并说它是否起作用，如果不是，则需要立即调整并改变或放弃，调整您的-调整它，就像看看您是否可以进行更改以适应该成功案例。 很多时候，特别是对于较小的初创公司，我们非常喜欢我们将要做什么的想法，所以我们不会停下来好好思考如果没有人参加或者只有几个人参加该怎么办？玩，还是值得做？ 然后，如果在启动后必须补全这些数字，那么您总是会捏造这个数字，以便说本月我们有一百个用户使用它，因此成功就是一百个用户。 如果您能从一开始就尽可能清醒地做，那就更好了，这样您就可以看到一些切实的东西，并说这是可行的。 因为社区可能如此模糊，所以很难说什么是成功。

Kevin: In some cases community is almost taken for granted as a necessary part of a new web presence nowadays, but it can be a bold decision to step away from community elements. I’m thinking about people who choose to switch off comments on their blogs.

凯文(Kevin)：在某些情况下，当今社会几乎将社区视为新的网络存在的必要组成部分，但离开社区元素可能是一个大胆的决定。 我正在考虑选择关闭博客评论的人。

Derek: Which I just did.

德里克：我刚刚做了。

Kevin: Well, why don’t you talk about your recent redesign of Powazek.com.

凯文：恩，为什么不谈论您最近对Powazek.com进行的重新设计。

Derek: Sure. Well, I should say it’s not that I— I probably will turn comments on at some point in the future. Powazek.com is a personal site, it’s not my business site, I have consulting clients, I’m not looking for new ones, so I don’t have a big business site up at Powazek.com. It’s really a traditional home page for me to be the person that I am and link to things that are interesting; I’m blogging, let’s just call it what it is. What’s interesting to me over the last three years or so is a lot of the casual conversations that used to happen in blog comments have migrated to Twitter, and I’m perfectly happy to see that happen because Twitter has really optimized for that. There’s like a hundred and forty character limit to how much someone can yell at you, which I think is really effective sometimes. And there’s a hundred and forty character limit to how much you can respond, which is good for me sometimes. So when I did this redesign at the point where I was starting to edit the templates to include comments I just thought comments don’t give me anything, in fact they make me not want to write. Lately, they make me not want to write on my own site, which is kind of not the point, so I’m just going to leave them out and just use Twitter for any follow-ups and see how that works. And so far it’s a double edge sword, you know, you lose the stupid comments of which there are many and we all know, but you also lose the really, really good ones, which are people who take the time to really digest what you’re saying and add something of value to a post. What I think I really want to do next is— One of the reasons that comments are so terrible on web logs is because web log commenting systems haven’t evolved past the point of deleting or not deleting a comment. And that’s really dumb. We should be able to put rules into commenting systems that say things like you know what, unless you use fifty words or more you can’t say it, which would put an end to all of the ‘I agree,’ or ‘you’re stupid’ posts, or ‘first’, right. So the system should say the owner of this blog has decided that if it’s less than fifty words then it’s not worth it, so…

德里克：当然。 好吧，我应该说这不是我—我将来可能会发表评论。 Powazek.com是一个个人网站，它不是我的商业网站，我有咨询客户，我不在寻找新客户，所以我在Powazek.com上没有大型商业网站。 对于我来说，成为我自己并链接到有趣的事物确实是一个传统的主页。 我在写博客，就这么称呼它是什么。 在过去三年左右的时间里，对我而言有趣的是，以前在博客评论中发生的许多随意对话已迁移到Twitter，而我很高兴看到这一情况的发生，因为Twitter对此进行了优化。 有人可以对您大喊大叫的字符限制为一百四十个，我认为有时候这真的很有效。 而且您可以回应的数量限制为140个字符，这有时对我有好处。 因此，当我在开始编辑模板以包含注释的时候进行了重新设计时，我只是以为注释没有给我任何东西，实际上它们使我不想写。 最近，它们使我不想在自己的网站上写东西，这不是重点，所以我将把它们排除在外，仅使用Twitter进行后续活动，看看它是如何工作的。 到目前为止，这是一把双刃剑，您知道，您失去了很多愚蠢的评论，我们都知道，但是您也失去了真正非常好的评论，因为有些人会花时间来真正消化您的内容在说，并在帖子中添加一些有价值的东西。 我想我接下来真正想做的是-在Web日志上注释如此糟糕的原因之一是因为Web日志注释系统还没有发展到删除或不删除注释的地步。 那真是愚蠢。 我们应该能够在评论系统中制定规则，说出类似您知道的事情，除非您使用五十个单词或更多，否则您无法说出来，这将终结所有“我同意”或“您”重新愚蠢的帖子，或“第一”，对。 因此系统应该说此博客的所有者已决定，如果少于50个单词，则不值得，所以……

Kevin: They need to be different words and not exclamation marks.

凯文：他们需要用不同的词而不是感叹号。

Derek: Right, exactly.

德里克：是的，完全正确。

Patrick: Not spaces either.

帕特里克：也不空格。

Derek: Yeah. And the comment form should change things to title case if they’re typed in all caps, which is what Flickr comments do by the way. It should also say if it’s over a thousand words that’s too long, and I’m not gonna let you post it. It should— There are all these things that computers are really good at doing to sculpt the input that comes into them that are not built into these systems. So the thing I’d like to do next is actually create a WordPress plug-in, with somebody who knows how to do such things, to kind of create some of those rules. Comment systems also should all turn off after a period of inactivity. I’m still getting spam on my Vox blog which I haven’t posted to since 1997. No, that’s not true, 2007, sorry.

德里克：是的。 如果在所有大写形式中都输入了注释，则注释表单应将其更改为标题大小写，这就是Flickr注释所做的事情。 它也应该说一千个单词是否太长，我不会让你发布的。 应该，计算机确实擅长做所有这些事情，以雕刻这些系统中未内置的输入信息。 因此，我接下来要做的实际上是创建一个WordPress插件，由一个知道如何做这些事情的人来创建其中一些规则。 闲置一段时间后，注释系统也应全部关闭。 自1997年以来我就再也没有发布过我的Vox博客上的垃圾邮件。不，那不是真的，2007年，对不起。

Kevin: I’m convinced there’s this cycle that you go through when you launch a blog…

凯文：我深信在您创建博客时会经历一个循环……

Derek: Oh god.

德里克：天哪。

Kevin: …you have this idealism where you’re like everything I say will be evergreen and I want new conversations to arise out of the ashes of my old ideas years on. But somewhere around year two, which is often one year and six months after you’ve stopped posting to the blog, those new comments on old posts get just too much and you just switch them off.

凯文： …你有这种理想主义，就像我说的一切都是常绿的，我希望从我过去的旧思想的残骸中产生新的对话。 但是在第二年左右的某个地方(通常是您停止在博客上发布后的一年零六个月)，关于旧帖子的那些新评论变得太多了，您只需将其关闭即可。

Derek: Right. And what happens is any open microphone on the Internet that nobody’s paying attention to will invariably be used for spam. There are these automated spammers that are very savvy and are very, very good at finding any crack to post links online. And they’re doing that to game Google. It’s not really about defacing your site, it’s about creating Google juice for third parties. But it becomes any community platforms problem if they leave these microphones on and lying around and unattended. So it’s actually bad for the Web in general to allow these places to be left on, let alone a WordPress install that’s a few versions out of date, there’s gonna be just automated worms crawling around to stick links in your templates because they found an exploit. I think we as a community of creators have to be very, very aware of these kinds of problems because they really are damaging to the health of the Web.

德里克：对。 发生的事情是互联网上任何开放的麦克风，没人关注的麦克风总是会被用作垃圾邮件。 这些自动垃圾邮件发送者非常精明，非常非常擅长查找任何漏洞以在线发布链接。 他们这样做是为了玩Google。 这并不是要破坏您的网站，而是要为第三方创建Google果汁。 但是，如果他们将这些麦克风放在周围无人看管的地方，将成为任何社区平台问题。 因此，通常对于Web而言，保留这些位置实际上是很不好的，更不用说过时的几个版本的WordPress安装了，只会有蠕虫自动蠕动以在模板中粘贴链接，因为它们发现了漏洞。 我认为我们作为一个创作者社区必须非常非常意识到这些问题，因为它们确实损害了Web的健康。

Patrick: I think the comment about, well, comments, and the moderation and the kind of the low quality of tools in general is a great point. And something when I got heavy into blogging coming from forums where I have this great system of documentation, I have every post we’ve ever removed documented, saved, a copy of it, action we took, everything. I can look back at it any time and see what we did years ago. To go to blog writing and allowing comments and just to see, well, there’s no accounts, there’s no way to censor this in any way, there’s no word censor involved here, there doesn’t seem to be a way to just hide this comment, there’s really nothing here except delete and allow, was disappointing. And I think I went looking for plug-ins at that time on the platform I was using to say is there anything here I can use to better moderate this? Sure, I found a couple, but it was so far behind what I was used to. And that just makes it difficult because I do want to have— I do have comment guidelines. I’ve tried to apply a similar strategy in general to maintaining a good atmosphere and the type of comments that I want to allow. But the platforms in general can sometimes just make it difficult, as you said, and blog comments, it’s funny how they are so far behind. There are some plug-ins; I actually have a plug-in that shuts down comments after fourteen days.

帕特里克(Patrick)：我认为关于评论的评论以及工具的适度和低质量通常是很重要的一点。 当我沉迷于拥有强大文档系统的论坛来撰写博客时，我拥有我们曾经删除过的每篇文章，都记录在案，保存，副本，我们采取的行动以及一切。 我可以随时回头看看我们几年前所做的事情。 要去写博客和发表评论，只是想看看，没有帐户，没有办法以任何方式审查此内容，这里没有文字审查器，似乎也没有办法隐藏此评论，除删除和允许外，这里真的没有其他东西令人失望了。 我想当时我是在平台上寻找插件的，当时我说这里有什么可以用来更好地管理此插件的？ 当然，我找到了一对，但是远远落后于我以前的习惯。 那样就很难了，因为我确实想拥有—我确实有评论准则。 我试图总体上采用类似的策略来保持良好的氛围和我想允许的评论类型。 但是，总的来说，有时候平台会给您带来困难，就像您所说的那样，在博客评论中，它们竟然如此落后，真是可笑。 有一些插件。 我实际上有一个插件，可在14天后关闭评论。

Derek: So do I. I have Comment Timeout on WordPress.

德里克：我也是。我对WordPress的评论超时 。

Patrick: Yeah, so I mean that stuff is useful, but it would be great if there was some sort of bigger, better suite as far as moderation tools and logging all of that information and documenting it and so on and so forth. Even creating an account on WordPress if you require a log-in seems kind of weak. I don’t know. So I’m definitely on board for a plug-in if you write it.

帕特里克：是的，所以我的意思是，这些东西很有用，但是如果有一些更大，更好的套件，例如审核工具，记录所有这些信息并进行文档记录等等，那将是很棒的。 如果您需要登录，即使在WordPress上创建帐户似乎也很薄弱。 我不知道。 因此，如果您编写的话，我肯定会准备使用插件。

Derek: (laugh) Yeah.

德里克：(笑)是的。

Kevin: So I know there are people out there who are definitely tackling this sort of thing. I know there’s Disqus.com, who are trying to make a business out of building a better comment system that plugs in to popular blog systems. I don’t have much experience with it, so I can’t speak to how well it addresses those issues, but I think these are symptoms of the fact that comments, at least for those of us with stars in our eyes, we’ve always seen comments as sort of an intermediate stepping stone, it’s a temporary solution. And those of us who rail against the walled gardens of the Internet, the Facebooks, have always thought that a thoughtful comment to a blog post should take the form of a blog post on another site and that the Web should become this interlinking conversation, and that the conversation in response to a post shouldn’t happen necessarily on the site where that was posted. And we know very well that there are secondary markets for comments out there. If you switch off comments on your site, but you’re a popular blog, you’re going to find comment streams all over the place; on Digg.com, on Reddit, all these places.

凯文：所以我知道外面肯定有人在解决这种事情。 我知道有Disqus.com ，他们正试图通过构建可插入流行博客系统的更好的评论系统来开展业务。 我没有太多的经验，所以我不能说它如何很好地解决了这些问题，但是我认为这些是以下事实的征兆：至少对于我们这些拥有星星的人而言，我们我一直将评论视为中间的垫脚石，这是一个临时解决方案。 我们当中那些反对Internet围墙花园，Facebook的人一直认为，对博客文章进行周到的评论应采用其他站点上博客文章的形式，并且Web应该成为这种相互联系的对话，并且回复帖子的对话不一定一定要在发布该帖子的网站上进行。 我们非常了解，有二级市场可以发表评论。 如果您关闭站点上的评论，但您是一个受欢迎的博客，那么您将在各处找到评论流； 在Digg.com，Reddit上所有这些地方。

Patrick: At least then you don’t have to moderate them.

帕特里克(Patrick)：至少您不必对此进行审核。

Kevin: Yeah.

凯文：是的。

Derek: Yeah.

德里克：是的。

Kevin: So I don’t know, do comments have a half-life as a system? Are they going away? Are we ready to give up on comments?

凯文：所以我不知道，评论是否有半条命？ 他们要走了吗？ 我们准备放弃评论了吗？

Derek: Hmmmm.

德里克：嗯。

Patrick: You know, I don’t think they’re going away, I think what it is, is they are what you want them to be. I think, you know, there’s this small group of vocal people who I don’t want to call them any kind of like snob or anything, but we’ve all seen the people, “That blog doesn’t have comments? That’s not a blog!” Or “I have to log in? Who does that?” “I’m not going to log in; I’m just going to leave!” And, you know, to that I say “fine”. If that blogger decides that they want a closed comments or require a log in so that can better manage their comments, I mean that’s a decision they make. There are repercussions, sure, but if you don’t find that blog interesting enough to read it, or that site, because blogging is just a medium and a platform anyway; if you don’t find that site interesting enough without comments then I don’t know if you’re gonna spend much time there anyway. I don’t see the big deal; a blog is not necessarily just about comments.

帕特里克：你知道，我不认为他们会消失，我想这是，他们就是你想要他们成为的。 我想，您知道，有一小群发声的人，我不想称呼他们像势利眼之类的东西，但我们都看到了这些人，“那个博客没有评论吗？ 那不是博客！” 还是“我必须登录？ 那是谁？” “我不会登录； 我要走了！” 而且，我要说“很好”。 如果该博客确定他们想要封闭评论或需要登录以更好地管理他们的评论，那是他们做出的决定。 当然会有影响，但是如果您觉得该博客或网站不够有趣，以至于无法阅读，或者因为该站点仍然只是一个媒介和平台； 如果您觉得该网站没有评论就足够有趣，那么我不知道您是否会在此花费大量时间。 我没什么大不了的； 博客不一定只是评论。

Derek: Right. I think it’s when we’re talking about personal blogging; really the only person who’s allowed to say what the rules are is whosever blog it is. So like John Gruber is an incredibly successful blogger who writes about Mac stuff at Daringfireball.net, and he’s adamant that just no comments on the site, that’s not the way it works. And it hasn’t slowed him down any; that site is his full time job, he’s got advertising on it, he sells sponsorships, and it’s incredibly successful. And he linked to me the other day and boy does he send a lot of traffic, so thanks for that John.

德里克：对。 我认为是在谈论个人博客的时候。 实际上，唯一可以说规则是什么的人就是博客。 因此，就像约翰·格鲁伯(John Gruber)一样，是一位非常成功的博客作者，他在Daringfireball.net上撰写有关Mac的文章 ，他坚信网站上没有任何评论，这不是它的工作方式。 并没有使他放慢脚步； 该站点是他的全职工作，上面有广告，他出售赞助商，并且取得了令人难以置信的成功。 而且前几天他与我联系，男孩给他发送了很多流量，所以谢谢约翰。

Patrick: The deck. (cough-cough) Sorry.

帕特里克：甲板。 (咳嗽)对不起。

Derek: Yeah, exactly. I don’t think it’s hurt him any and so that’s why I’m giving it a try. One thing I found that’s interesting is in the responses to posts I’ve made lately, because there are no comments it’s actually increased the amount of discussion on other places, so I got a lot of feedback in Twitter. Which is great, I’m actually happy about that because it allows this— It’s one step removed, so I kind of— If you were saying it on my site then I have to care about it and I have to worry about it and I have to monitor it, and it’s a big hassle and it takes time, and all the time you spend doing that you don’t spend writing, so you wind up never writing, and if it happens elsewhere then it’s not your problem. And you can respond or interact if you want to or you can just let it go and let conversation happen. And I think that’s a more comfortable middle ground just for me as a person; if raising community is part of the mission of your company then you can’t get away with that, you’ve got to step up and do the work to host them. I do think, however, though that the tool makers have to get better at this, and we need better tools than simply approving or rejecting comments.

德里克：是的，确实如此。 我认为这不会伤到他，所以这就是为什么我尝试一下。 我发现有趣的一件事是对我最近发表的帖子的回复，因为没有评论，实际上增加了其他地方的讨论量，因此我在Twitter上获得了很多反馈。 太好了，我对此感到非常高兴，因为它允许这样做-只需将其删除一个步骤，所以我有点想-如果您在我的网站上说过，那么我就必须在意它，而我不得不为此而担心必须监视它，这是一个很大的麻烦，并且需要时间，并且您花费的所有时间都不会花费在写作上，因此您最终不会写，而且如果它发生在其他地方，那也不是您的问题。 并且，您可以根据需要进行响应或互动，也可以放手进行对话。 我认为这对我个人来说是一个更舒适的中间立场； 如果建立社区是您公司使命的一部分，那么您将无法逃脱，您必须加紧努力并开展工作来接待他们。 但是，我确实认为，工具制造商必须在这方面做得更好，我们需要更好的工具，而不仅仅是批准或拒绝评论。

I also want to say that I think the barrier to entry has to be adjustable on websites because when a site is early in its life you can get away with having a very low barrier to entry, where for example, any old person can say whatever they want and to comment, and that’s success because you really just are trying to get the community going. And as communities get larger you often have to raise that barrier to entry, make it a little more difficult to get over so that the quality goes up. So some of the tools that I was talking about like requiring a minimum word count, allowing or disallowing certain URLs or phrases to be used, maybe even— Oh! The Gawker properties now have a very interesting community comment system where if— You have to become a user and then you have to be kind of approved. You can comment before you’re an approved commenter, but it kind of goes into this dark space where only some people can see it and most people can’t, and then other people have to approve the comment before it shows up. So they’re actually leveraging the community to say there’s two groups here, one there’s everybody who we don’t really know, and the other is the people who we have already identified as being good posters. And the good posters can promote comments out of the bad, of the unknown poster pool. So they’re kind crowdsourcing some of the decision making around comments. I think it’s very smart and largely successful, and they’re one of the few properties I can think of that’s really innovating around this area.

我也想说，我认为进入网站的门槛必须是可调整的，因为当网站处于生命初期时，您可以摆脱进入门槛很低的局面，例如，任何老年人都可以说任何话他们想要并发表评论，那是成功的，因为您确实只是在努力使社区发展。 随着社区的扩大，您常常不得不提高准入门槛，使其越过困难，从而提高质量。 因此，我所谈论的一些工具要求最少的字数，允许或禁止使用某些URL或短语，甚至-哦！ Gawker属性现在具有一个非常有趣的社区评论系统，在这种情况下，您必须先成为用户，然后才能获得批准。 您可以在被批准的评论者之前发表评论，但是这种情况进入了这个黑暗的空间，只有部分人可以看到它，而大多数人则看不到它，然后其他人必须批准评论才能显示出来。 因此，他们实际上是在利用社区来说这里有两个小组，一个小组是我们真正不认识的每个人，另一个小组是我们已经确定是优秀海报的人。 好的发帖人可以从未知的发帖人群中挑出评论。 因此，他们善于将评论中的某些决策众包。 我认为它非常聪明并且在很大程度上取得了成功，它们是我能想到的在这一领域真正创新的为数不多的属性之一。

Kevin: So before we finish our conversation around communities, there’s one more thing I wanted to touch on and that’s design. One of your many hats is that you are the creator of Fray, Fray.com, which these days takes the form of a quarterly magazine. And one of the things I admire Fray for is the site is bringing back the art of from-scratch page design. Every time you have a new issue out you redesign the site, or the front page of the site, at least, accordingly.

凯文：因此，在结束围绕社区的对话之前，我还想谈一谈设计。 您的一顶帽子是您是Fray的创建者Fray.com ，这些日子如今以季度杂志的形式出现。 我佩服Fray的一件事就是该网站带回了从头开始的页面设计的艺术。 每次遇到新问题时，至少都要相应地重新设计网站或网站首页。

Derek: Mmm-mm.

德里克：嗯。

Kevin: Can this sort of thing be done with a community driven site? And more generally, what is the role of design within community?

凯文：这种事情可以在社区驱动的网站上完成吗？ 更一般地说，设计在社区中的作用是什么？

Derek: Wow, that’s a big topic. So let me take the first one first. Can it be done? Definitely, yes; but I think you have to do it from the outset and you have to set expectations in the community. So, here’s the— I’m going to pick on Flickr because I usually compliment them. You know Flickr has looked the same largely for four years at least. There’s a look to Flickr, and it’s a good look, it’s very simple, but the design has remained unchanged for so long that now when they make even the most minor changes people go bonkers. And I think partially that’s because people never like change and there’s deep physiological reasons in our brains for that, but I think it’s also because they have settled into this static experience where there’s been so much time unchanged that now any change is suspect. Whereas if there had been these iterative changes all along the way the community would probably be more tolerant to them.

德里克：哇，那是个大话题。 因此，让我首先学习第一个。 能做到吗 肯定的，是的。 但是我认为您必须从一开始就这样做，并且必须在社区中树立期望。 所以，这就是-我选择Flickr，因为我通常会称赞他们。 您知道Flickr至少四年来一直看起来一样。 Flickr看起来很漂亮，非常简单，但是设计已经保持了很长时间，以至于当他们做出最细微的改变时，人们都变得疯狂起来。 我认为部分原因是因为人们从不喜欢变化，而这在我们的大脑中有深层的生理原因，但是我认为，这也是因为他们已经适应了这种静态体验，其中有太多时间没有变化，因此现在可以怀疑任何变化。 如果在整个过程中都发生了这些迭代更改，那么社区可能会更容忍它们。

Kevin: That seems to be a recurring trend on the web. I mean what’s echoing with me is the situation with Internet Explorer; they went six years without a major update and web developers became set in their ways, they started thinking of the web platform as not a moving target but a fixed target, and the Web is not about fixed targets, or it shouldn’t be as far as I’m concerned.

凯文：这似乎是网络上经常出现的趋势。 我的意思是，与我相呼应的是Internet Explorer的情况。 他们花了六年时间没有​​进行重大更新，Web开发人员开始采用自己的方式，他们开始将Web平台视为移动的目标，而不是固定的目标，Web与固定的目标无关，或者不应该与就我而言。

Derek: Yeah, definitely. And it’s managing those expectations that become so key in community experiences. But on the design side I can tell you for sure that the design of the community platform, the colors, the font choices, the structure, the visual layout of what the user is looking at when they are in the creative act of saying something can drastically change what they say. And there’s some great psychological studies about this, one of which was simply putting a red or blue box around the content changed how the user perceived the content. Red made people more detail oriented and less emotional, and blue made people more emotional and less detail oriented. And in fact, if you put a blue background on a task that was detail oriented, people performed worse at it, whereas if you put a red background around something that was detail oriented they performed better. So basically you should make your desk red when you’re doing your taxes, and make it blue when you’re doing creative writing. I mean it’s laughable but it’s proof, it’s actually true that design matters.

德里克：是的，当然。 它正在管理那些在社区体验中变得如此重要的期望。 但是在设计方面，我可以肯定地告诉您，社区平台的设计，颜色，字体选择，结构，用户在创意表达方式时所看内容的视觉布局可以彻底改变他们说的话。 对此有一些出色的心理学研究，其中之一就是在内容周围放一个红色或蓝色框，从而改变了用户对内容的感知方式。 红色使人们更加注重细节，减少了情感的表达，蓝色使人们更加注重情感，减少了细节的表达。 实际上，如果您将蓝色背景放在注重细节的任务上，则人们的表现会较差，而如果您将红色背景放在注重细节的事物周围，则他们的表现会更好。 因此，基本上，您在纳税时应将办公桌变成红色，而在进行创意写作时应使其变成蓝色。 我的意思是，这很可笑，但可以证明，设计很重要。

Kevin: I suppose a red desk would want me to get my taxes done quicker so I could get away from that monstrosity.

凯文：我想一张红色的桌子会希望我更快地完成纳税，这样我就可以摆脱那种怪癖。

Derek: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the color choice matters, and more importantly I think is when a design of a community system is reassuring and, like one of the reasons people love the iPhone so much is there’s a very strong iPhone experience. When you’re using it you feel taken care of, right. If you’ve ever in the iPhone sent a photo by email, you’re in the photo browser and you say send this photo in email, the photo kind of shrinks a bit. Behind it you can see the email app go away, you can see the photo app go away, the email app come up, create a new message, and then the photo kind of moves and lays down into the message, right, so it’s this very beautiful narrative of like you’re taking your photo, you’re going into this email app; I’m putting it in the email for you, now you may write the email. And you feel taken care of. When people feel in control and taken care of they react positively and are much more likely to contribute positively. And when people feel out of control they’re way more likely to go back into their lizard brain which goes to fight, right. So if your community is creating negative stuff, maybe it’s partially because they feel out of control and their dukes are up, right, they’re making fists. And that’s a design problem. So, making the design more handholding can help people participate better. And it’s weird once you start kind of picking into the details of well how do you make people feel taken care of, and that’s I think the really fun part.

德里克：是的，确实如此。 究竟。 因此，颜色选择很重要，更重要的是，我认为当社区系统的设计令人放心时，就像人们如此热爱iPhone的原因之一就是，iPhone拥有非常出色的体验。 使用它时，您会得到照顾，对。 如果您曾经在iPhone上通过电子邮件发送过照片，那么您就在照片浏览器中，并且说要通过电子邮件发送该照片，则照片会有所缩小。 在它的后面，您可以看到电子邮件应用程序消失了，您可以看到照片应用程序消失了，电子邮件应用程序出现了，创建了一条新消息，然后照片就移动并放到消息中了，就是这样非常漂亮的叙述，就像您要拍照一样，您正在进入此电子邮件应用程序； 我正在为您添加电子邮件，现在您可以写电子邮件了。 您会得到照顾。 当人们感觉受到控制并受到照顾时，他们会做出积极的React，并且更有可能做出积极的贡献。 当人们感到失控时，他们更有可能回到战斗的蜥蜴大脑中，这是正确的。 因此，如果您的社区正在制造负面的东西，也许部分是因为他们感到失控，公爵站起来了，对，他们在制造拳头。 那是一个设计问题。 因此，使设计更具手持性可以帮助人们更好地参与。 一旦开始研究细节如何使人感到被照顾就很奇怪，那是我认为真正有趣的部分。

Kevin: Hmm. Well, thank you for taking the time to discuss community with us today Derek.

凯文：嗯。 好，谢谢您今天抽出宝贵时间与我们讨论社区。

Derek: It was my pleasure.

德里克：这是我的荣幸。

Kevin: You can find Derek Powazek at powazek.com, and subscribe to his quarterly collection of stories and art at fray.com. Patrick O’Keefe is a regular host on this show and you can find him at iFroggy.com.

凯文：您可以在powazek.com上找到Derek Powazek，并在fray.com上订阅他的故事和艺术季刊 。 Patrick O'Keefe is a regular host on this show and you can find him at iFroggy.com .

And thanks for listening to the SitePoint Podcast. If you have any thoughts or questions about today’s interview, please do get in touch.

感谢您收听SitePoint播客。 如果您对今天的采访有任何想法或疑问，请保持联系。

You can find SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, and you can find me on Twitter @sentience.

你可以在Twitter上找到SitePoint @sitepointdotcom ，你可以找到我的Twitter @sentience 。

Visit sitepoint.com/podcast to leave a comment on this show and to subscribe to get every show automatically. We’ll be back next week with another news and commentary show with our usual panel of experts.

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This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad and I’m Kevin Yank. Bye for now!

This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad and I'm Kevin Yank. 暂时再见！

Theme music by Mike Mella.

Mike Mella的主题音乐。

Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.

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翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-54-building-communities-with-derek-powazek-part-2/