Terrence Sejnowski博士访谈
This video will be especially fun, because I have a chance now to interview my co-instructor, Dr. Terrence Sejnowski. Terrence's pioneering research in neural networks and computational neural science, have made him a living legend. Dr. Sejnowski is an investigator at Howard Hughes medical institute, and the Francis Crick professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies where he directs the Computational Neurobiology Laboratory. Above and beyond all of that Dr. Sejnowski is also in the elite group of only ten living scientists. To have been elected to all three of the national academies, in engineering, science, and medicine. What I think perhaps is most impressive however is that Terry has also graduated more computational neural scientists, than any other scientist. In some sense then, this makes Dr. Terrence Sinalski a leading father figure for the modern field of neuroscience. The ultimate goal of Dr. Sejnowski's research is to build linking principles, from brain to behavior using computational models.
Today, I'm going to ask Terry a few questions about how he learns. And how he thinks about learning, so that we all might get a better sense of how to improve our own learning. So what do you do to help yourself learn more easily, when you're looking at something completely new?
>> Well I like to get into the thick of it. I don't get much out of just going and reading a lot of books. And, when I was in Graduate School, I made a transition from Physics to Biology. And the way I did it was to get into a Biology lab. And get involved in experiments. And I, I'm a firm believer in learning by doing, and learning by osmosis from people who are experts.
>> How do you keep yourself paying attention, during something like a boring lecture?
>> I found that there isn't, a simple way to keep yourself attending something that you're not interested in. But I have found a little trick to waylay the, the speaker, and that is by asking a question. And the interruption often, gives rise to a discussion that is a lot more interesting. And it actually follows the general principle which is that you learn more by active engagement rather than passive listening.
>> So, what do you do to get into and take advantage of diffuse mode thinking? I find that when I'm jogging, or out getting exercise, that it's a wonderful way to get the mind disengaged, from the normal train of thought. And I find that it's very very possible to to sort of come up with new thoughts, new ideas. And it's almost as if your brain goes into a new mode, you're running along, things are passing you by. And you start thinking about what's happening. For example, things that, that your brain has been working on, your out of conscious thoughts bubble to the surface. And often new ideas that are going to be then helpful to you later on. The only problem I have is remembering all those great ideas. Because when I get back and take a shower, then a lot of them have evaporated. And that's why I, I like to take a little notebook along with me, so I can take notes and remember what it is that I was thinking about.
>> So, do you multitask, or, or if you don't, how do you resist the urge to multitask when you want to multitask?
>> Well, I wouldn't survive if I didn't multitask. And most of my talking with students, listening to lectures, interacting with a lot of people who are passing through, visitors. There's just a lot things that are bombarding you, email, texting any these are very important things that you want to do, but if you can't juggle them, it's hard to get through the day. However, I, I enjoy the evenings when the hubbub of the day quiets down, and I get a chance to go into a, a more reflective mode, and that's when I actually get my best work done.
>> Do you do two things at the same time ever?
>> Well, you know, you can't actually do two things, consciously, at the same time, because those will get mixed up. It’s possible with a lot of training, actually, to do two things at once, but you're not doing it efficiently. For me, multitasking is, is being able to switch back and forth, context switching from one topic to another. And some people are better at that than others. In other words sometimes takes a while to get into the swing of things if you're in, in the middle of writing a paper. For example it may take hours before you get to the point where you can actually be productive in area, actually able to get something accomplished. But if you can you know after getting lay you know, into the middle of something switching from that to another task. Is, is sometimes very difficult to do, if, if you're, if, if you're middle of something. But, I can do that very easily. I can switch back and forth. And I seem to be able to go back to the original task, and, and, and take up where I left off. So, so that's one way of, of accomplishing a lot and I get I have, fortunately I have a lot of very good students and helpers. And enormously productive environment that I'm working in, so it's been, it's really a joy to be here.
>> How do you apply your knowledge of neuroscience, to your own learning?
Well, you know, I think there are many little ways that, I have applied what I've actually learned in the lab, and let me give you just one example to make it concrete. One of my colleagues at the Salk Institute, Rusty Gage, made a very important discovery. If you read the textbooks, it will tell you that all the neurons that you have in your brain you had a birth. And after birth, the wiring takes place and learning, and that changes at the, the connections between the neurons. But the, but they're the same old neurons that you had when you were born. Some die. You know, so there is shrinkage of your, of your cortex. However, Rusty discovered that, in an important part of your brain for learning, and memory, the Hippocampus. And which is located right in the middle here, of this model brain. New neurons are being born, even in your adulthood. And, this, this is very important for learning and memory. It is obviously something that is very,
very useful to be able to have new neurons.
Now here's what we discovered together. We discovered that. If you have a animal, we use a, a rat as our model system. And, if you give it an enriched environment, in which the rat is able to move around, and do things, and interact with other rats. That, and then look in the hippocampus, you find that the hip, the, the strengths of the connections between the neurons, is much stronger there. It, it can be made by a factor of two, much stronger than in a rat that has been kept in a cage where there is impoverished environment. Now, and here's now the, the key, okay so having an enriched environment is, is, is even as an adult is going to help you. Right? Instead of locking yourself, a monk in the room you really want to be surrounded by other people who are stimulating you. And events that are happening that you can actively participate in, so, so that important. Now here is something Rusty discovered which I think is incredibly important. That in the absence of an enriched environment exercise will also increase the number of new neurons that are being born and survive. And, so I, am very, avid at running. I've already mentioned that I get lots of good ideas when I run, but I also, know, that my brain is, helping me remember things, because of the fact that I have new neurons being born, and surviving in my hippocampus. So that's one of many examples that I can point to, in which what we've learned about neuroscientists, from neuroscience, has really changed the way I think and its a pity if you look at the way our, our new educational reforms and schools. What do they cut out when they want to add a new, a, session for example learning something, for example, how to pass a test, right. Tests are being given now to help assess, how well a student is doing and how well a school is doing. Well, it's recess. And what happens during a recess? Exercise. It's running around. It's exactly what you need, what your brain needs. It needs that moment of pause of, of using your muscles rather than your brain. To be able to process that information and to, and, and get the neurons working on it. So I think that this is, again something that is, should be a policy that we need to have our children out there running around.
>> Have there been any special techniques you've acquired over the years that help you focus, learn or create more effectively. I find that, being in a, a creative environment, where other people, are, are creative is, is, is a way of, enhancing your own creativity. I, I think that. Although the image we have of the creative thinker as being isolated genius may be true of some people, it's not true of me. I really find that I have better ideas if I'm talking to somebody, and trying to explain to them my ideas. Often, that process can, it boosts the creative process and the facts, I think that you know, having other people around to bounce your ideas off of is really for me a very, very important part of doing science.
>> How about test taking? Any special advice there?
>> Tests are like any other skill. You can learn them. You can learn to be a better test taker. And you have a lot of good ideas about that. I've discovered that the... what you need... things to avoid, for example. Don't get hung up if you can't answer a question. Go on to the next, because you can always come back and in fact, often, the answer to the problem that was holding you back may actually pop in to your brain later on in the test. This is how our brains work, things work along parallel tracks.
How do you approach your creative work in science? How do you keep yourself creative in the face of the onslaught of more routine day by day tasks?
>> I've been very fortunate, because I have a great lab, and my students and colleagues, keep me young in terms of learning new things, looking at things with new perspectives. So, I think that having youth around really is a, a great way to keep yourself youthful.
>> If you had any advice for a young high school or college student, about how to learn effectively, what would you say?
>> That success isn't necessarily come by being smart. I know a lot of smart people who are not successful. But I know a lot of people, who are very, very passionate. And persistent. A lot of success in life is that passion and persistence, of really staying the course, staying working on it, and, not letting go. Not giving up. That's really, I think the most important, quality that I see in students, that I work with, who are successful.
>> Terry, I cannot thank you enough, for your great answers, that I think people will find very helpful.
>> Wonderful, now I want to, this is, give a little intro here. I'd like to introduce you to Francis Crick's brain. So, I first met Francis 30 years ago, and this brain was sitting in his office. And, Francis was a close colleague of, I, moved here about 25 years ago, and got to know Francis much much better. And one day, we were chatting, and Francis pointed out this brain that had been sitting there for decades and said Terry do you know that I just recently realized that this brain is much bigger than a real brain. And in fact you could not fit this brain in my skull if you actually look at the relative sizes. It's, it's, this is a teaching tool for medical students. You know, you could take apart the different parts of the brain. But isn't it interesting that Francis Crick didn't realize that until much, much later, when he actually looked at it with new eyes? And so, you know, this is something about. Learning with fresh new eyes.
>> Isn't it extraordinary, even in a Nobel Prize winning discoverer of DNA.
>> Well, there are things to discover every day about things around us, ordinary things, that you just have to look at them with a different set of eyes and a different perspective. [BLANK_AUDIO]
这段视频将会特别有趣，因为我现在有机会采访我的合作导师，Terrence Sejnowski博士。Terrence在神经网络和计算神经科学方面的开创性研究使他成为了一个活着的传奇人物。Sejnowski博士是Howard Hughes医学研究所的研究员，也是Salk生物研究所的Francis Crick教授，他在那里领导着计算神经生物学实验室。除此之外，Sejnowski博士还是仅有的十位在世科学家精英团体中的一员。他被选入了工程、科学和医学三个国家科学院。然而，我认为最令人印象深刻的是，Terry培养出的计算神经科学家比其他任何科学家都要多。因此，在某种程度上，这使得Terrence Sinalski博士成为了现代神经科学领域的领军人物。Sejnowski博士研究的最终目标是建立从大脑到行为的联系原理，使用计算模型。
今天，我会问Terry几个关于他的学习和思考方式的问题，这样我们都可以更好地了解如何提高自己的学习能力。
“当你面对完全陌生的东西时，你会做些什么来帮助自己更容易地学习呢？”
“嗯，我喜欢深入其中。仅仅阅读大量书籍并不能让我学到很多东西。当我还在研究生院时，我从物理学转向了生物学。我所做的就是进入一个生物学实验室并参与实验。我是一个坚定的学习者，通过实践和向专家学习来吸收知识。”
“当你参加无聊的讲座时，你是如何保持注意力的呢？”
“我发现没有简单的方法能让你保持对不感兴趣的事物的关注。但我发现了一个小技巧来打断演讲者，那就是提问。这种中断通常会引发更有趣的讨论。这实际上遵循了一个普遍的原则，即通过积极参与而不是被动倾听来获得更多的知识。”
“那么，你是如何进入并利用扩散模式思维的呢？”
“我发现当我慢跑或锻炼时，这是一种让大脑从正常的思维轨道上解脱出来的绝佳方式。我发现这是产生新思想和新想法的非常可能的方法。这就好像你的大脑进入了一个新的模式，你在跑步时，事物在你身边流逝。然后你开始思考正在发生的事情。例如，你的大脑一直在思考的事情，你的潜意识的想法会浮现到表面。而且经常会有新的点子出现，这些点子对你以后会很有帮助。我唯一的问题是记住所有这些伟大的想法。因为当我回来洗澡时，很多想法都已经消失了。这就是为什么我喜欢随身携带一个小笔记本，这样我可以记笔记并记住我当时在想什么。”
“那么，你是同时处理多个任务吗？如果不是的话，当你想同时处理多个任务时，你是如何抵制这种冲动的呢？”
“嗯，如果我不同时处理多个任务的话，我无法生存下去。我和学生交谈、听讲座、与许多路过的人互动，这些事情都会让你应接不暇。电子邮件、短信等这些都是你想做的事情中非常重要的事情，但如果你不能处理好它们，很难度过这一天。然而，我喜欢夜晚的时候，当一天的喧嚣平静下来时，我有机会进入一个更反思的模式，那时我实际上完成了最好的工作。”
“你曾经同时做过两件事情吗？”
“嗯，你知道的，你不能真正有意识地同时做两件事情，因为它们会被混淆在一起。实际上，经过大量的训练是可以做到同时做两件事情的，但效率并不高。对我来说，多任务处理是指在不同主题之间进行切换的能力。有些人在这方面比其他人做得更好。换句话说，有时候需要一段时间才能进入状态，比如你正在写一篇论文的过程中。例如，可能需要几个小时才能达到一个点，在这个点上你可以在某个领域真正高效地完成任务并取得成果。但是如果你能够在进入某个任务中间后切换到另一个任务的话......这有时是非常困难的做到的......如果你正在做某件事情中间的话......但是我可以很容易地做到这一点......我可以来回切换......我似乎能够回到最初的任务并......并从我离开的地方继续下去......所以这就是一种完成很多事情的方式......我很幸运拥有很多优秀的学生和助手......以及一个非常有生产力的环境......所以在这里真的是一种乐趣......”
“你如何将你对神经科学的知识应用到你自己的学习中呢？”
“嗯，你知道的，我认为有很多小方法可以将我在实验室里学到的东西应用到实际生活中，让我给你举一个例子来具体说明。我在索尔克研究所的一位同事，鲁斯蒂·盖奇，做出了一个非常重要的发现。如果你阅读教科书，它会告诉你大脑中的所有神经元都是天生的。出生后，神经元之间的连接和学习就会发生，这些连接在神经元之间会发生变化。但是，它们仍然是你出生时就有的老神经元。有些会死亡。你知道的，所以你的大脑皮层会萎缩。然而，鲁斯蒂发现，在你的大脑中有一个对学习和记忆非常重要的部分，那就是海马体。它就位于这个模型大脑的中间位置。即使在你的成年期，新的神经元也会诞生。这对于学习和记忆非常重要。显然，能够拥有新的神经元是非常有用的。 现在这是我们共同发现的。我们发现，如果你有一只动物，我们使用老鼠作为我们的模型系统。如果你让它处于一个丰富的环境中，在这个环境中，老鼠可以四处移动，做事情，与其他老鼠互动。然后观察海马体，你会发现海马体中神经元之间的连接强度要强得多。它可以比被关在笼子里的老鼠强两倍，笼子里是一个贫乏的环境。现在，这是关键，所以即使在成年期拥有一个丰富的环境也对你有帮助。对吧？而不是把自己锁在一个房间里像一个和尚一样，你真的想要被其他刺激你的人包围。参与发生的事件，这样很重要。现在鲁斯蒂发现了一些我认为非常重要的事情。那就是在没有丰富环境的情况下锻炼也会增加新生并存活的新神经元的数量。而且，我非常喜欢跑步。我已经提到过当我跑步时我会想到很多好主意，但我也知道我的大脑正在帮助我记住事情，因为我的海马体中有新生并存活的新神经元。所以这是我可以指出的众多例子之一，我们从神经科学家那里学到的关于神经科学的知识真的改变了我的思考方式，这很遗憾如果你看看我们新的教育改革和学校的方式。当他们想添加一个新的、例如学习某件事情的会议时他们会削减什么？测试现在被用来帮助评估学生的表现以及学校的表现如何。好吧，这是课间休息时间。课间休息期间会发生什么？锻炼。就是到处跑来跑去。这正是你的大脑所需要的，它需要那一刻的暂停使用你的肌肉而不是你的大脑来处理信息并让神经元工作起来。所以我认为这再次是我们应该让孩子出去奔跑的政策。”
“你有没有在这些年中获得任何特别的技巧来帮助你集中注意力、更有效地学习和创造？”
“我发现在一个充满创造力的环境中与他人一起创造是增强自己创造力的一种方式。我想是这样的。虽然我们对创造性思维者作为一个孤立的天才的形象可能对某些人来说是真实的，但对我来说并非如此。我真的发现如果我和别人交谈并试图向他们解释我的想法时我会有更好的想法。通常这个过程会促进创造性过程并且事实上我认为有其他人在身边来激发你的想法对我来说是做科学非常重要的一部分。”
“那么考试呢？有什么特别的建议吗？”
“测试就像任何其他技能一样。你可以学习它们。你可以学会成为一个更好的应试者。你对此有很多好主意。我发现你需要避免的事情......例如不要因为无法回答一个问题而困扰自己继续下一个问题，因为你可以在稍后回来。事实上往往阻碍你的问题的答案可能会在你后来的测试中突然出现。这就是我们的大脑工作的方式事物沿着平行轨道进行着。”
“你如何对待你在科学中的创造性工作？面对日益繁重的日常任务你如何保持自己的创造力？ ”
“我很幸运因为我有一个很棒的实验室我的学生和同事们让我在学习新事物、用新的视角看待事物方面保持着年轻的心态所以我认为周围有年轻人真的是保持年轻的一种很好的方式。”
“如果你有任何建议给年轻的高中生或大学生，关于如何有效地学习，你会说什么？”
“成功并不一定来自于聪明。我知道很多聪明的人并不成功。但是我知道很多人，他们非常、非常有激情和坚持不懈。生活中的很多成功都来自于真正的坚持到底、坚持下去不放弃不屈服于困难。这真的是我认为在我所共事的成功的学生身上看到最重要的品质。”
“Terry，我非常感谢你给出的精彩答案，我相信人们会觉得非常有帮助。”
“太好了！现在我想介绍一下这是弗朗西斯·克里克的大脑。我第一次见到弗朗西斯是在30年前，这个大脑就坐在他的办公室里。弗朗西斯是我的亲密同事，大约25年前我搬到这里并更加了解弗朗西斯。有一天我们聊天，弗朗西斯指着这个几十年来一直坐在那里的大脑说：“Terry，你知道吗？我最近意识到这个大脑比实际的大脑大得多。事实上，如果你真正比较一下相对大小的话，你甚至无法把这个大脑放进我的头骨里。”这是一个医学生的教学工具，你可以拆开大脑的不同部分。但是弗朗西斯·克里克直到很久之后才意识到这一点，当他用新的眼睛看待它时。这不是很奇怪吗？即使是诺贝尔生理学或医学奖获得者DNA的发现者也是如此。”
“所以每天都有关于我们周围的事物普通事物的新发现，你需要用不同的眼睛和不同的角度来看待它们。”
单元1总结
Although living brains are pretty complex, this week we've used metaphor and analogy and zombies to help simplify matters. In essence people have two fundamentally different modes of thinking that, for the purposes of this course, we've labeled focused and diffuse. We used a simple pinball analogy to help us understand the differences between the modes. The focused mode has tight spacing for the rubber bumpers, which seems to, in some sense help keep your thoughts concentrated. The diffuse mode on the other hand has more widely spaced bumpers that allow for more broad ranging ways of thinking. The focus mood is centered on the prefrontal cortex and it often seems to involve thinking about things you are somewhat familiar with. For example if you're familiar with multiplication and you're trying to solve a multiplication problem, or you're trying to find a word that rhymes with another word. You're probably stepping along the somewhat familiar pathways of the focused mode. But if you're trying to solve or figure out something new, it often cries out for the more broad ranging perspectives of the diffuse mode. This mode, as it turns out, is representative of the brain's many neural resting states. Creative thinkers throughout history, whatever their discipline have found ways to access the diffuse mode often more directly and quickly. But we all access this mode quite naturally when we do things like go for a walk or take a shower or even just drift off to sleep. When we find ourselves stuck on a problem, or even if we're unsure of a situation, the course of living our daily life.
It's often a good idea once you've focused directly on the situation. To let things settle back and take a bit more time. That way more neural processing can take place, often below conscious awareness in the diffuse mode. The thing is it often takes time for neural processing to take place, and time, as well, to build the new neural structures that allow us to learn something new. This is why tackling procrastination is so very important.
The easiest way to tackle procrastination is to use the Pomodoro technique. That brief, 25 minute stretch of focuses concentration followed by a bit of mental relaxation. It's through practice and repetition that we can help enhance and strengthen the neural structures we're building as we're learning something new.
Practice and repetition is particularly important for more abstract topics. Memory of course is an important aspect of learning. There are four slots in our working memory. Things can fall out of those slots unless we keep repeating them to hold them in mind. In that sense working memory is like a not very good blackboard. Long term memory, on the other hand, is like a storage warehouse. If you practiced and repeated something well enough to get it into long-term memory, you can usually call it up later if you need, although you may need an occasional bit of repetition to freshen the memory up. It's never a good idea to cram your learning by repeating things many times all in one day. Because that's like trying to build muscle by lifting weights all in one day there's no time for solid structures to grow. We've also learned that the importance of sleep and washing away the toxins that develop during our days activities. We want to avoid taking tests or doing anything difficult with little sleep the night before cause its like trying to think with poison on the brain. And just as importantly, exercise is surprisingly valuable in helping both improve our memory and our ability to learn. We have had a lot of fun while learning this week. I'll bet you'll find next week's material to be even more exciting, I'm Barbara Oakley. Thanks for learning how to learn.
尽管活体大脑非常复杂，但本周我们使用了隐喻、类比和僵尸来帮助我们简化问题。本质上，人们有两种根本不同的思维方式，为了本课程的目的，我们将其标记为专注模式和发散模式。我们使用一个简单的弹球机类比来帮助我们理解这两种模式之间的区别。专注模式的橡胶缓冲器间距较紧，这在某种程度上似乎有助于保持你的思维集中。另一方面，发散模式的缓冲器间距更宽，允许更广泛的思维方式。专注模式集中在前额叶皮层上，它通常似乎涉及到思考你稍微熟悉的事情。例如，如果你熟悉乘法并且正在尝试解决一个乘法问题，或者你正在寻找一个与另一个词押韵的词。你可能正在沿着稍微熟悉的专注模式路径前进。但是，如果你试图解决或弄清楚新事物，它通常需要更广泛的发散模式视角。事实证明，这种模式代表了大脑的许多神经静息状态。
历史上的创造性思想家，无论他们的学科如何，都找到了更直接、更快地进入发散模式的方法。但是当我们做一些事情时，比如散步、洗澡甚至只是入睡时，我们都会很自然地进入这种模式。当我们发现自己陷入困境时，或者甚至不确定某个情况时，我们日常生活的过程。一旦你直接关注到这种情况，通常是个好主意。让事情平息下来，花更多的时间。这样更多的神经处理可以在发散模式下进行，通常是在意识之下进行的。
问题是神经处理通常需要时间发生，而且也需要时间建立新的神经网络结构，使我们能够学习新事物。这就是为什么解决拖延症非常重要的原因。解决拖延症的最简单方法是使用番茄工作法。那短暂的25分钟集中注意力，然后进行一些心理放松。通过练习和重复，我们可以帮助我们增强和加强我们在学习新事物时正在建立的神经网络结构。对于更抽象的主题来说，练习和重复尤为重要。
记忆当然是学习的一个重要方面。我们的工作记忆中有四个插槽。如果不定期重复它们以将它们保持在脑海中，事物可能会从这些插槽中丢失。从某种意义上说，工作记忆就像一个不太好的黑板。另一方面，长期记忆就像一个存储仓库。如果你足够好地练习和重复某件事以将其放入长期记忆中，通常你可以在以后需要时调用它，尽管你可能需要偶尔重复一下以刷新记忆。试图通过在一天内多次重复来填鸭式学习从来都不是一个好主意。因为那就像试图在一天内通过举重来锻炼肌肉一样，没有时间让坚实的结构生长起来。我们还了解到睡眠的重要性以及清除我们在白天活动中产生的毒素。我们要避免在前一天晚上睡眠不足的情况下参加考试或做任何困难的事情，因为这就像是在有毒的大脑下思考一样。同样重要的是，运动在帮助改善我们的记忆力和学习能力方面出奇地有价值。这一周的学习过程中我们有很多乐趣。我敢打赌你会发现下周的材料更加令人兴奋，感谢你们学习如何学习。
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