SitePoint播客＃21：Jon Hicks访谈

Episode 21 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week, Kevin Yank (@sentience) has a one-on-one chat with Jon Hicks (@hicksdesign), the designer of the Opera 10 browser, the Firefox logo, and many other high-profile design projects.

SitePoint Podcast的 第21集现已发布！ 本周，Kevin Yank( @sentience )与Opera 10浏览器的设计者Jon Hicks( @hicksdesign )进行了一对一聊天，Firefox徽标以及许多其他备受瞩目的设计项目。

在浏览器中收听 (Listen in your Browser )

Play this episode directly in your browser! Just click the orange “play” button below:

直接在浏览器中播放此剧集！ 只需点击下面的橙色“播放”按钮：

A complete transcript of the interview is provided below.

下面提供了采访的完整笔录。

下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)

You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：

• SitePoint Podcast #21: Interview with Jon Hicks (MP3, 43.4MB)

  SitePoint Podcast＃21：Jon Hicks访谈 (MP3，43.4MB)

面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)

Kevin: The SitePoint Podcast episode 21, for Friday, July 31st, 2009: “Interview with Jon Hicks”.

凯文： SitePoint播客第21集，2009年7月31日，星期五：“乔恩·希克斯专访”。

Kevin: Hi, there and welcome back to the SitePoint Podcast – news, opinion, and fresh thinking for web developers and designers. I’m your host, Kevin Yank coming to you from SitePoint headquarters in Melbourne, Australia and I’m joined by my panel of co-hosts.

凯文：您好，欢迎回到SitePoint播客–有关Web开发人员和设计师的新闻，观点和新思路。 我是您的房东，凯文·扬克(Kevin Yank)从澳大利亚墨尔本的SitePoint总部来找您，我的共同主持人小组也加入了我的行列。

Brad: Brad Williams from WebDevStudios.

布拉德： WebDevStudios的 布拉德 ·威廉姆斯。

Patrick: Patrick O’Keefe from the iFroggy Network.

帕特里克： iFroggy网络上的 Patrick O'Keefe。

Stephan: And Stephan Segraves from Houston, Texas.

斯蒂芬：还有来自德克萨斯州休斯顿的斯蒂芬·塞格雷夫斯。

Kevin: Hello, and welcome to the show. I’m hosting it all by myself today because this is the first of a series of special interview shows. In response to some listeners who asked us to make this a weekly podcast, we’re trying out this new format. We’ll continue to do the usual news focus shows every second week but between those, you’ll also get a one-on-one interview with some of the big names of web design and development.

凯文：您好，欢迎参加演出。 我今天要独自主持所有这一切，因为这是一系列特别访谈节目的第一步。 为了回应一些要求我们每周播客的听众，我们正在尝试这种新格式。 我们将每隔两周继续进行通常的新闻焦点显示，但是在这两个星期之间，您还将获得对一些Web设计和开发界知名人士的一对一采访。

Please do let us know if you enjoy this new interview format and if you have any specific people in mind that you’d like to hear from. Drop us a line at podcast@sitepoint.com or visit sitepoint.com/podcast to leave a comment on this episode. And so without further ado, welcome Jon Hicks to the SitePoint podcast.

如果您喜欢这种新的面试格式，并且有任何想听的特定人士，请告诉我们。 将我们的邮件发送至podcast@sitepoint.com或访问sitepoint.com/podcast对这一集发表评论。 因此，事不宜迟，欢迎Jon Hicks参加SitePoint播客。

Jon: Hi Kevin!

乔恩：嗨，凯文！

Kevin: Hi there! Why don’t you introduce yourself.

凯文：你好！ 你为什么不自我介绍。

Jon: My name is Jon Hicks as you say. People might know me as being one half of hicksdesign but these days – for the last few months at least – I’ve been working as a lead designer with Opera software in Norway, working on the Opera Desktop and the new version of Opera Mini which isn’t out yet or beta’d yet and also a little bit of work that I can’t yet talk about. You probably know me as being the logo designer of Firefox and Thunderbird and few other projects, like maybe Silverback and Mailchimp but generally, I’m an all around designer but these days I focus a lot on icons and logos.

乔恩：我叫乔恩·希克斯(Jon Hicks)。 人们可能知道我是hicksdesign的一半，但最近至少在过去的几个月中，我一直是挪威Opera软件的首席设计师，在Opera Desktop和新版Opera Mini上工作。尚未发布或尚未发布Beta版，还有一些我无法谈论的工作。 您可能知道我是Firefox和Thunderbird以及其他一些项目的徽标设计师，例如Silverback和Mailchimp，但通常来说，我是一名全能设计师，但是如今 ，我专注于图标和徽标。

Kevin: Is it fair to say you started out in print design and moved in to web and general digital design later?

凯文：可以说您是从印刷设计开始，后来又转向网络和通用数字设计吗？

Jon: Kind of. I actually started out as an illustrator – that’s what I trained to do. I did then what was called scientific illustration which was basically natural history and apart from those that did the medical illustration which was a little bit too gory.

乔恩：有点。 我实际上是从插画家开始的-那就是我受过训练的工作。 然后，我做了所谓的科学插图，这基本上是自然历史，除了那些进行医学插图的过程之外，还有些过于繁琐。

Kevin: I can’t remember who but somewhere along the line, one of my uncles gave me the advice “you know, if you want a make a good living for yourself, get in to medical illustration. Those guys make a ton.”

凯文(Kevin)：我不记得是谁，但在路上的某个地方，我的一位叔叔给了我建议：“你知道，如果你想自己谋生，那就去做医学插图。 那些家伙赚了很多。”

Jon: Well, I think it is. I think it’s one of those jobs that very little people want to do. So if you are good at it and you’re prepared to do that, then it’s quite an interesting career.

乔恩：恩，我认为是。 我认为这是很少有人想做的工作之一。 因此，如果您擅长并准备这样做，那么这是一个非常有趣的职业。

Kevin: Another eyeball. Great!

凯文：另一个眼球。 大！

Jon: You do have to be sort of a certain mentality.

乔恩：你一定要有一定的心态。

Kevin: I don’t know – maybe because I’ve always kind of been in the web – I like to tell myself that the web is kind of a unique medium to work in as a designer but maybe every medium has its own unique constraints but I find that the Web, as a designer coming into the Web, there are certain constraints that are really not obvious.

凯文：我不知道-也许是因为我一直都在网络中-我想告诉自己，网络是一种可以作为设计师工作的独特媒介，但也许每种媒介都有其独特的局限性但是我发现，作为一名进入网络的设计师，网络确实存在某些局限性，这些约束实际上并不明显。

At first glance, the blank browser window looks a lot like a blank piece of paper but there are things that you can do it that you can’t do on a paper, there are things that you can do on paper that you can’t do on the web.

乍一看，空白的浏览器窗口看起来很像一张空白的纸，但是有些事情可以做，而您不能在纸上做，有些事情可以在纸上做，而您不能做。在网络上做。

Jon: Yeah, exactly.

乔恩：是的，确实如此。

Kevin: I’ve worked with designers who have come from print before and they’ll give me a beautifully rendered web design but I know that as soon as the content gets a little longer, those images you’ve got in the sidebars aren’t going to fill the sidebars anymore. So how was that for you?

凯文：我曾经和过印刷业的设计师一起工作过，他们会为我提供精美的网页设计，但是我知道，只要内容再长一点，在侧边栏中的图像就不会出现。将不再填充侧边栏了。 那你呢？

Jon: There is a period where you have to get over yourself and realize that there are things you can’t do. The whole thing about print is not only that you’re sort of setting in stone everything is there; it’s the fact that you can chose paper and there’s much more of an emotional feel about it. You’ve got the smell of the ink and the paper. You’ve got to feel and touch of the paper. You’ve got things like embossing effects. There are a lot of things that you can do with a print design to create extra kind of emotional attachment, extra engagement that’s quite hard on the web, because the web essentially is quite cold. It’s very flat.

乔恩：有一段时间，你必须克服自己，意识到有些事情你做不到。 关于打印的全部内容不仅在于您将所有内容都固定在了一块； 这是事实，您可以选择纸张，并且纸上还有更多的情感上的感觉。 你有墨水和纸张的味道。 您必须要有纸张的触感。 您有浮雕效果之类的东西。 印刷设计可以做很多事情，以产生额外的情感依恋，在网络上很难实现额外的参与，因为网络本质上是相当冷的。 非常平坦

Kevin: It’s either matte or gloss.

凯文：是哑光还是光泽。

Jon: Exactly! These days, mostly gloss. But you have to work harder to create that kind of attachment to things. But as you say, there are so many advantages, once you realize the advantages of what the web is, and the fact that your content can be altered in so many different ways to suit so many different types of viewing devices or people.

乔恩：是的 ！ 这些天，大多是光泽。 但是您必须更加努力地创建对事物的这种依恋。 但是正如您所说，有很多优点，一旦您意识到了网络的优点，并且您的内容可以以多种不同方式更改以适应多种不同类型的观看设备或人们的事实。

I remember we worked at a publishers and we did get a request for a large print edition of a particular book but they only needed two copies. So the cost of printing this would obviously be astronomical – thousands and thousands. So we did just say, “Just go to a copy shop, get it enlarged onto A3 that’s going to be the cheapest route,” but with the Web you don’t have anything like that constraint and the content can be same but the presentation can be so different and if you need a large print edition, it’s just there. As long as you know what you are doing when you’re creating sites for the web. You’ve got such an advantage to suit so many different people.

我记得我们曾在一家出版商工作过，确实收到了要求购买一本书的大型印刷版的请求，但他们只需要两本。 因此，印刷成本显然是天文数字，成千上万。 因此，我们只是说：“只要去复印店，将其放大到最便宜的A3上即可。”但是，在Web上，您没有类似的限制，内容可以相同，但演示文稿可以可以有很大的不同，如果您需要大型印刷版，就在那里。 只要您知道在创建Web站点时在做什么。 您有这么多的优势可以适应这么多不同的人。

Kevin: I see what you mean though; with a piece of paper where you control everything about the physical object you’re creating, you have a lot more control over the relationship that the viewer will have with what you’re creating. Whereas on the Web, it may be a laptop, sitting in a bright sunny location or it may be on a handheld where they’ll be stretching it with their fingers. You really have little control over the context that it will be viewed in.

凯文：我明白你的意思了。 使用一张纸，您可以控制所创建的物理对象的所有内容，从而可以更好地控制查看者与所创建的对象之间的关系。 而在网络上，它可能是一台笔记本电脑，坐在阳光灿烂的地方，也可能是在手持设备上，他们将用手指拉伸它。 您实际上对将要查看的上下文几乎没有控制权。

Jon: You can’t even be sure that the colors are going to be the same. That’s a big one to get over when you’re a print designer and you spend a lot of your life specifying Pantone colors and checking the first print that comes off the press; it’s a big thing to try and let go of. But as I say, eventually you get over yourself and you just realize the advantages.

乔恩：您甚至无法确定颜色是否会相同。 当您是印刷设计师时，要花很多时间来指定Pantone颜色并检查印刷机上的第一张印刷品，这是一个不容错过的好机会。 尝试放手是一件大事。 但是正如我所说，最终您克服了麻烦，您才意识到自己的优势。

Kevin: I’ve got a few questions from the SitePoint Forums community as well, and Musicbox asks which software you mostly use for designing logos and user interfaces? I saw your @media 2009 slides where you specifically mentioned that you prefer Fireworks for icon design. Is it just for icon design that you like that tool?

凯文： SitePoint论坛社区也有一些问题， Musicbox会 询问您主要用于设计徽标和用户界面的软件吗？ 我在您的@media 2009幻灯片上看到了您特别提到您更喜欢Fireworks进行图标设计的幻灯片 。 您喜欢该工具吗？

Jon: Yeah, basically because what you mentioned there is kind of like two different applications.

乔恩：是的，基本上是因为您提到的内容有点像两个不同的应用程序。

So if it is something that I know is going to be need to be used as a logo – Mailchimp, for example, that was created in Illustrator because other anything that’s going to be repurposed like that, you have to use Illustrator because then it can be sort of put on t-shirts without any sort of hassles or worries. But if it’s interfaces and icons, yeah, Fireworks is my preferred tool of choice. It’s not perfect by any means and I swear at it on a daily basis because it’s just – especially CS4 – so many weird little bugs and errors and things that…

因此，如果我知道需要将它用作徽标–例如， Mailchimp是在Illustrator中创建的，因为其他需要像这样重新使用的东西，则必须使用Illustrator，因为它可以穿上T恤，没有任何麻烦或烦恼。 但是，如果是界面和图标，是的，Fireworks是我首选的选择工具。 无论如何它都不是完美的，我每天都发誓，因为它只是-尤其是CS4-这么多奇怪的小错误和错误以及类似的东西……

Kevin: That’s true of almost anything in the CS4 suite.

凯文： CS4套件中的几乎所有内容都是如此。

Jon: Yeah, well goodness me. It’s appalling, isn’t it? So the thing that Fireworks is that you can work in vectors but you can also preview in pixels very easily. And obviously, Illustrator can do this but just generally, working for screen graphics, Fireworks just has the right feel, the right tools.

乔恩：是的，天哪，我。 令人震惊，不是吗？ 因此，Fireworks的优点是您可以在矢量中工作，但也可以非常容易地以像素为单位进行预览。 很明显，Illustrator可以做到这一点，但是通常来说，Fireworks只能提供正确的感觉和正确的工具来处理屏幕图形。

Kevin: There’s definitely a sense that if you’re working in Illustrator, pixels are second class citizens; like it’ll give you pixels if you really twist its arm but it’ll kind of go, “You want pixels? Phtewwiiee!” Whereas Fireworks deals in pixels.

凯文：从某种意义上说，如果您在Illustrator中工作，像素是二等公民。 例如，如果您确实扭曲其手臂，它将为您提供像素，但是有点像，“您想要像素吗？ Phtewiee！” 而Fireworks以像素为单位。

Jon: It’s simple things like in Illustrator, you make everything pixels – you have a pixel grid, you have pixel preview on, and you ask it to do draw box with a one pixel border. When it does that, it gives you the one pixel but then it always gives you this subpixel and you have to do little hacks like making the stroke 0.8 pixels in order just to get a just a one pixel solid line.

乔恩(Jon)：这很简单，例如在Illustrator中，您将所有像素制作为像素–拥有像素网格，启用像素预览，然后要求它执行具有一个像素边框的绘制框。 当这样做时，它会为您提供一个像素，但随后总会为您提供该子像素，您必须要做一些小小的改动，例如将笔触设置为0.8像素，以便仅获得一个像素的实线。

Kevin: Alingned to the pixel grid exactly.

凯文：精确到像素网格。

Jon: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. You check everything. You make sure the coordinates aren’t a point or something. It often puts this little subpixel line on the inside. You shouldn’t have to work around little glitches like that and little rendering problems, but yeah, it’s…

乔恩：是的，是的。 究竟。 您检查所有内容。 您确保坐标不是点或东西。 通常会将这条小亚像素线放在里面。 您不必解决类似这样的小故障和小的渲染问题，但是，是的。。。

Kevin: I guess naïvely, I always assumed that these days, logos were designed as vector art with no real consideration given to pixel dimensions and you would design the vector as this pure object that you could blow up to a street sign or right down to a 16-pixel favicon. You then treated that vector in something like Photoshop to fine tune it for any given size.

凯文(Kevin)：我天真地猜测，我一直都认为，如今，徽标是作为矢量艺术设计的，没有真正考虑像素尺寸，您可以将矢量设计为一个纯净的物体，可以炸毁到路牌上或下到一个16像素的图标。 然后，您可以使用诸如Photoshop之类的矢量处理该矢量，以针对任何给定大小对其进行微调。

So what exactly are the benefits of working in pixels in something like Fireworks as you render your first iteration of your logo?

那么，在渲染徽标的第一次迭代时，在Fireworks之类的像素中处理像素到底有什么好处？

Jon: This is it – let’s say for an actual logo, let’s say for example, take something like Mailchimp again, the big illustration of that is a big vector illustration in Illustrator. But if you’re wanting a favicon or a series of a smaller icons on that, you basically to get the best effect you have to redraw it, especially for the 16-pixel version. Rarely can you actually enlarge a large vector like that down to 16 pixels.

乔恩：就是这样–假设是一个实际的徽标，例如，再次使用Mailchimp之类的图形，其中的大插图是Illustrator中的大矢量插图。 但是，如果您要在其上使用收藏夹图标或一系列较小的图标，则基本上要获得最佳效果就必须重新绘制它，尤其是对于16像素版本。 实际上很少能将像这样的大矢量放大到16个像素。

Kevin: So is your vector artwork sort of like the guide that uses as a tracing element that you then draw the size on top of?

凯文：那么您的矢量图稿是否类似于用作跟踪元素的指南，然后在其上方绘制尺寸？

Jon: Yeah, you might reuse the paths but the trouble is obviously, if you take – let’s say like an application icon for the Mac – the largest one is 512 pixels. So for that, that would be a large vector illustration.

乔恩：是的，您可能会重用路径，但是麻烦的是，如果您采用–就像Mac上的应用程序图标一样–最大的是512像素。 因此，那将是一个很大的矢量图。

Kevin: So far, I think they’re even going bigger in Snow Leopard. I’ve heard something about 1024 pixel icons.

凯文：到目前为止，我认为他们在“雪豹”中甚至会变得更大。 我听说过约1024个像素的图标。

Jon: Oh god! Just to make my work harder.

乔恩：天哪！ 只是为了让我更加努力。

Kevin: Just in case they weren’t big enough.

凯文：以防万一他们不够大。

Jon: My goodness! Why do they need that size? Just wait until they’re animated as well.

乔恩：我的天哪！ 他们为什么需要这么大的尺寸？ 只要等到它们也被动画化。

Yes, once you get down to these smaller sizes, in order to get a crisp icon, you have to redraw and often when it’s 16 pixels, you have to do it almost as pixel art – drawing a 16 x 16 grid and just coloring in the blocks. Otherwise, you’re not just going to get a crisp icon, you’re going to get something very fuzzy. So you always have to do a little bit mixture of both.

是的，一旦缩小到这些较小的尺寸，为了获得清晰的图标，就必须重新绘制图像，并且通常在其为16像素时，必须像绘制像素艺术一样进行绘制–绘制16 x 16的网格并仅进行着色块。 否则，您不仅会得到一个清晰的图标，还会变得非常模糊。 因此，您始终必须同时混合两者。

Usually what happens is you’re drawing in vectors but you’re drawing in vectors in a way that will fit a pixel grid properly and with crisp lines. It’s a lot of work but so far, there’s no kind of easy answer to it. If you want to cover all these different sizes, then you really have to do most of them individually.

通常，发生的事情是绘制矢量，但是绘制矢量的方式必须适合像素网格并具有清晰的线条。 这是很多工作，但是到目前为止，还没有一个简单的答案。 如果要涵盖所有这些不同的大小，则实际上必须单独完成其中的大多数操作。

Kevin: It sounds like there’s a space in the market for someone to come along and code a really specific tool for those kinds of things.

凯文：听起来市场上有空间供某人跟进并为这类事情编写一个真正特定的工具。

Jon: Oh yeah! A Fireworks competitor would be great because there are things in it that Photoshop can’t do and Illustrator can’t do. But the thing is at the moment, everyone wants to do Twitter clients; that’s the popular thing. No one wants to take on Adobe particularly.

乔恩：哦，是的！ Fireworks的竞争对手会很棒，因为其中有些东西是Photoshop不能做的，而Illustrator不能做的。 但是目前，每个人都想成为Twitter客户。 那是流行的东西。 没有人特别想接受Adobe。

I would love that. I would love someone to come up with some alternative. I keep trying different things and there is still nothing out there that’s quite as good.

我会很高兴。 我希望有人提出一些替代方案。 我一直在尝试不同的东西，但仍然没有什么比这更好的了。

Kevin: Speaking of icon design, as you mentioned, you designed the now familiar icons for Firefox and Thunderbird as well, but with the release of Firefox 3.5, that icon got a little bit of tweaking. I understand you had some input into those changes?

凯文：正如您提到的，谈到图标设计，您也为Firefox和Thunderbird设计了现在熟悉的图标，但是随着Firefox 3.5的发布，该图标有了一些调整。 我了解您对这些更改有所投入？

Jon: The input was that last year – actually about a year and a half ago, Mozilla asked me to work specifically on a Vista icon. The problem being that 128 pixels was the largest size Firefox icon we’d got and since that came out, we’ve now had 256 and 512 as possible and icon sizes on OSX and Vista. It was particularly for Vista that they wanted a larger, detailed icon. So we started to work on that and trying different things.

乔恩：输入的是去年-实际上是大约一年半以前，Mozilla要求我专门研究Vista图标。 问题是128像素是我们获得的最大尺寸的Firefox图标，自从问世以来，我们现在已经分别拥有256和512以及OSX和Vista上的图标大小。 特别是对于Vista，他们想要更大，更详细的图标。 因此，我们开始着手对此进行尝试，并尝试不同的方法。

There’s a few I didn’t like about the original like the pointed fire on the tail, it didn’t look very fire-like. So I started doing sort of more of a curvy one with this. It got to this point where it was sort of waiting for a final approval; didn’t hear a thing for about a year. The next thing I know is that that’s then been called a “concept and rendering” and they’re using someone from the Iconfactory instead to do the final icon.

我不喜欢原版的一些东西，例如尾巴上的尖锐的火焰，看上去并不像火焰。 因此，我开始对此做一些更弯曲的操作。 至此，它正在等待最终批准。 大约一年都没听到任何声音。 我知道的下一件事是，这就是所谓的“概念和渲染”，他们正在使用Iconfactory中的某个人来制作最终的图标。

Kevin: Do you know the folks at the Iconfactory?

凯文：你认识圣像工厂的人吗？

Jon: Yeah, exactly. It’s one of these things that if someone else has to do the Firefox logo, then it had better be the Iconfactory because they are the best. So if I have to give up the control of that, then it’s got to be a good one.

乔恩：是的，确实如此。 如果别人必须做Firefox徽标，这就是其中之一，那么最好是Iconfactory，因为它们是最好的。 因此，如果我必须放弃对它的控制，那么它必须是一个好人。

Kevin: Most people these days I guess would know the Iconfactory because they made Twitterific, the popular Twitter client for the Mac and the iPhone, but icons are their day-to-day business.

凯文：这些天我大多数人都会对Iconfactory有所了解，因为他们制作了Twitterific ，这是Mac和iPhone的流行Twitter客户端，但是图标是他们的日常业务。

Jon: Yeah, they’ve worked on things like they’ve worked on the icons for Ubuntu. They’ve worked on the XP and Vista icons before Microsoft, as well as all the lots of official Mac icons. They do a lot of stuff that you might not be aware of that it actually belongs to them, so yeah, it’s great work.

乔恩：是的，他们从事过类似Ubuntu的图标之类的工作。 他们曾在Microsoft之前开发过XP和Vista图标，以及所有许多官方Mac图标。 他们做了很多您可能不知道它实际上属于他们的事情，是的，这是很棒的工作。

Kevin: So the finished icon, it has a fluffier tail, definitely. Are there any little touches about it that you like or that you were surprised to see in that finished product?

凯文：完成的偶像肯定有蓬松的尾巴。 您是否喜欢它或在制成品中惊讶地发现它的一点动静？

Jon: Yeah, there are a couple of things that I was surprised to see such as the globe at the top’s got very reflective. The top is quite bright and white, and I find it quite distracting. This is some feedback I gave sort of during the process that I felt this was too bright and it was taking away from the Firefox, the head itself. The eye gets drawn to it too much, but apart from that, I mean I think it’s a really nice detailed icon.

乔恩：是的，有些事情令我惊讶，例如顶部的地球仪反射得非常好。 顶部是相当明亮和白色的，我觉得这很分散注意力。 这是我在整个过程中提供的一些反馈，我觉得这太过聪明了，它已经取代了Firefox本身。 眼睛吸引了太多，但除此之外，我的意思是我认为它是一个非常不错的详细图标。

Kevin: I’m just bringing it up from my screen here and it is, yeah, just the sun is beating down on it.

凯文：我只是在这里从屏幕上调出来，是的，只是太阳在照着它。

Jon: Either that or it’s a big ice age so if you’re coming in the top there. That was basically my only sort of criticism. But I think they did a great job.

乔恩：要么，要么是一个很大的冰河时代，所以如果您来那里，那是最重要的。 那基本上是我唯一的批评。 但是我认为他们做得很好。

Kevin: Let’s talk about the work you’re doing these days, which is among other things, redesigning the Opera desktop browser. So it seems to me for someone who’s been working a long time as a web designer, being asked to design the browser is like asking a portrait artist to redesign the National Portrait Gallery, which I suppose is a huge honor and a really exciting thing to take on but also it must be kind of daunting.

凯文：让我们谈谈这些天您正在做的工作，其中包括重新设计Opera桌面浏览器。 因此对于我来说，对于一个已经从事了多年网页设计师工作的人来说，被要求设计浏览器就像是要求肖像画家重新设计国家肖像画廊，我认为这是一笔巨大的荣誉，这对我来说是一件非常令人兴奋的事情承担，但也一定是令人生畏的。

Jon: This is the story. Basically, I get kind of known as a web designer because I have done websites and I still do. But ever since around the time of getting a bit of profile from the Firefox logo, I have been doing a lot of interface work and sometimes just icons, for example, the Linotype Font Explorer, just the icon work. But then in some cases, I do actually do interface work too. I’ve actually worked on things like the early versions of Flock back when it was called Round 2. I don’t know if that’s a public name or not, but they did some interface concepts for that. I’ve done a little bit of work for Camino, and I’ve also sort of worked on the visual identity team that worked on Firefox 2 redesign. So while I’m not exactly doing all the work myself, I was part of the team that drove it. In some ways, I’ve actually worked on quite a few of the browsers before this.

乔恩：这就是故事。 基本上，我以Web设计师而闻名，因为我已经做过网站，但现在仍然这样做。 但是自从从Firefox徽标获取一些配置文件以来，我一直在做很多界面工作，有时只是做图标，例如Linotype Font Explorer ，就是做图标。 但是在某些情况下，我实际上也会做接口工作。 实际上，我曾从事过诸如Flock back的早期版本(称为Round 2)的工作。我不知道这是否是公共名称，但他们为此做了一些接口概念。 我为Camino做了一些工作，并且还为视觉识别团队工作，该团队致力于Firefox 2的重新设计。 因此，尽管我自己并不能完全完成所有工作，但我还是推动这项工作的团队的一员。 在某些方面，在此之前，我实际上已经使用过许多浏览器。

Kevin: Okay. So coming into Opera, what was the scope of the work that you had? I mean, obviously you did a lot of visual design work and continue to be doing that. Were you designing the UI features at all, or were you focused on making some of the ideas they had come to life?

凯文：好的。 那么进入Opera，您从事的工作范围是什么？ 我的意思是，很明显，您做了很多视觉设计工作，并将继续这样做。 您是在设计UI功能，还是在专注于实现它们的某些想法？

Jon: Basically, what we’re kind of planning is the next version. So in terms of designing features and how they’re implemented, that’s more for the next version.

乔恩：基本上，我们正在计划的是下一个版本。 因此，就功能的设计及其实现方式而言，下一版本的功能更多。

What we’re doing for this one is really just a sort of a skin refresh, so the features are already there, so by the time I started last November the main features which were things like Unite and the tab thumbnails, they had already been created.

我们为此所做的实际上只是一种皮肤刷新，因此功能已经存在，因此，当我去年11月开始时，主要功能(如Unite和选项卡缩略图)已经创建。

So my job was actually to integrate these into the skin and sort of felt actually as I was designing this that what we needed was rather than just designing these new elements, to actually redesign the whole and go for it but actually that process didn’t start until about April time this year. So it’s quite late on but it felt … I mean it was quite late in the process but it felt like the right time … it still felt like the right time to do this and I’m glad we did. It has taken a lot of work.

因此，我的工作实际上是将它们整合到皮肤和某种感觉中，而我在设计时所需要的不仅仅是设计这些新元素，而是重新设计整体并为此而努力，但实际上该过程并没有开始到今年四月左右。 因此，这已经很晚了，但是感觉到了……我的意思是，过程中已经很晚了，但是感觉就像是在正确的时机……这仍然感觉像是在正确的时机，我很高兴我们做了。 花费了很多工作。

Essentially what this is – Opera 10 – it’s a new version of Opera but it’s a similar sort of system – the skin system just with new features; whereas the next version will be a lot more of a rewrite of such. So that’s where we’re sort of rethinking a lot of things and dialogs and how things are accessed. While this is a nice sort of skin refresh, a nice redesign; Opera 11 or whatever it’s called – I don’t know if they’ll call it 11 – but that will be the one that’s more kind of, in a sense, more redesigned.

本质上，这是– Opera 10 –它是Opera的新版本，但它是类似的系统–仅具有新功能的外观系统； 而下一个版本将更多地重写此类内容。 因此，我们在这里重新思考了很多事物和对话框以及事物的访问方式。 虽然这是一种不错的皮肤刷新，但还是可以进行重新设计。 Opera 11或它的任何名称–我不知道他们是否会称它为11 –但从某种意义上讲，这将是一种更重新设计的版本。

Kevin: I don’t know how much you can say but was it a case of you have a very clear picture of what Opera “next” is going to look like and then you back-ported that look onto the current UI features, or was it a very separate design process?

凯文：我不知道你能说多少，但这是否是您清楚地了解Opera“下一个”的外观，然后又将其移植到当前的UI功能上，或者这是一个非常独立的设计过程吗？

Jon: Actually, you’re right. You’re sort of spot on with the first one really, in that a lot of what you see now in Opera 10 was actually what I was planning for Opera 11, but the way that it worked is that some of the changes we were going to make in Opera 11, meaning that the skin isn’t going to look quite like that – actually what we’ve got now is what was being planned originally for the later version. So it kind of back-ported, I guess.

乔恩：实际上，你是对的。 您真的很喜欢第一个，因为您现在在Opera 10中看到的很多东西实际上是我为Opera 11计划的，但是它起作用的方式是我们将要进行的一些更改在Opera 11中进行制作，这意味着外观不会看起来像那样-实际上，我们现在所拥有的是最初为更高版本所计划的。 因此，我想这是反向移植的。

Kevin: This is another question from the SitePoint forums, Alex Dawson wants to know – if this redesign and specifically, you being brought on the team is “part of a new strategy for Opera to capture greater market share in the desktop browser space”? I do actually paraphrase a little there. Was there sense that Opera’s UI design was holding it back and that this is an attempt to address that?

凯文：这是SitePoint论坛中的另一个问题， 亚历克斯·道森 ( Alex Dawson) 想知道 –是否经过重新设计，尤其是被带入团队，这是“ Opera在桌面浏览器领域占领更大市场份额的新战略的一部分”吗？ 实际上，我确实在那儿解释了一下。 是否感觉Opera的UI设计阻碍了它，并且试图解决这个问题？

Jon: Yeah.

乔恩：是的。

It’s funny, because I get the impression that some people think I was headhunted so that Opera said last year oh we need a UI designer, we’ll get Jon Hicks… which isn’t the case. I’d like it to be that case, my ego would like it that to be the case.

这很有趣，因为我给人的印象是有些人认为我被猎头了，以至于Opera去年说过，哦，我们需要一名UI设计师，我们会得到Jon Hicks……事实并非如此。 我希望情况就是这样，我的自我希望情况就是这样。

What happened was that they felt that they needed a good designer, particularly for Desktop and they advertised – I saw the job advert and thought well I’m not really looking for a full time job, but I really like the sound of this job description. It’s exactly what I want to do. So I went over to see them last year and yeah, I think it was a good fit. I really like what they were doing and what they wanted to change. I think they’re sort of – how can I put this diplomatically – I think they kind of felt they wanted to move the design on. Whether that’s a deliberate thing to get more market share, I’m not sure. But it’s always … you always want more people to use your browser; that’s the thing.

发生的事情是，他们觉得他们需要一位优秀的设计师，尤其是针对Desktop的设计师，并且他们做了广告–我看到了这份广告，并认为我并不是真正在寻找一份全职工作，但我真的很喜欢这份职位描述的声音。 这正是我想要做的。 所以去年我去看了他们，是的，我认为这很合适。 我真的很喜欢他们在做什么，他们想改变什么。 我认为他们有点–我如何在外交上讲这个–我认为他们觉得他们想继续进行设计。 我不确定这是否是故意获得更多市场份额的事情。 但这总是……您一直希望有更多的人使用您的浏览器。 就是这样

If you put a lot of hard work into something, you want as many people to use it as you can really.

如果您在某件事上花了很多心血，那么您希望尽可能多的人使用它。

Kevin: Coming back to – we were talking about constraints of different media a little bit before. Matt Magain, who is our online editor at SitePoint asked me if I would ask you about your thoughts on the differences between things like graphic design, icon design and interface design. Are there – just as there are on the web – constraints that you very quickly run into when you come at designing a UI naïvely, or was it you could do whatever you wanted and Photoshop and the Opera programmers were going to make it happen in code?

凯文：再说一遍–我们之前讨论过不同媒体的局限性。 我们SitePoint的在线编辑Matt Magain 问我是否想问您关于图形设计，图标设计和界面设计之间的区别的想法。 就像在网络上一样，您是否天真地设计了UI时很快就会遇到约束，或者您可以做任何您想做的事，而Photoshop和Opera程序员将使它在代码中实现？

Jon: Yeah, there are a lot of constraints, especially in the betas now, there are things that I would really like to have had changed but they require a lot more kind of development side to make them work. So there are little things that look a little bit odd like if you have the panels on the left, they don’t quite meet the top because of this area called the drag bar; this is where you pull the tabs up and down to reveal the tab thumbnails. It’s not an easy one to fix.

乔恩：是的，有很多限制，尤其是在现在的beta中，我确实希望改变某些事情，但是它们需要更多的开发方面的知识才能使它们起作用。 因此，有些小东西看起来有些奇怪，例如，如果左侧有面板，由于拖曳栏这个区域的缘故，它们并不太符合顶部。 在这里您可以上下拉动标签以显示标签缩略图。 修复起来并不容易。

Also, there is quite a few sort of precedents set, such as Opera tabs have this thing called an attention state. So if your tab has finished loading or if it’s got say a login box or an error warning or something that needs your attention, then it changes a particular text color.

另外，还设置了许多先例，例如Opera选项卡将这种情况称为关注状态。 因此，如果您的标签页已完成加载，或者提示登录框或错误警告或需要您注意的内容，那么它将更改特定的文本颜色。

It’s things like that that are quite difficult to change; you can’t just suddenly spring upon existing users “Well I’m going to make this color different now…” There is a certain amount— of you have to sort of take into consideration the previous users, as well as the new users.

这样的事情很难改变。 您不能只是突然吸引现有用户“好吧，现在我要使这种颜色有所不同……”在一定程度上，您必须兼顾以前的用户和新用户。

Kevin: But it’s fair to say you have a lot more freedom to play with that sort of stuff in the Opera 11 or whatever it may be called.

凯文：但是可以公平地说，在Opera 11或类似的东西中，您有更多的自由去玩这种东西。

Jon: Yes. I think there is probably a lot more possibilities in Opera 11. Having said that, I think I found a hell of a lot more freedom than I expected with Opera 10. It uses this skin system, which in some ways is a little bit like CSS, but isn’t. I wondered how that was going to go, but actually I have a lot of flexibility there. I think one good example is for the Mac native version, what it does first of all, it has this little switch that says “use native elements”. But if you do that – if you say to the Mac version just use native elements, what native elements the system provides actually looks really outdated, and you can do a better job of integrating with, say Leopard, by actually creating all these elements yourself …

乔恩：是的。 我认为Opera 11可能存在更多的可能性。话虽如此，我认为我发现了比Opera 10期望的自由更多的地狱。它使用了这种皮肤系统，在某些方面有点像CSS，但不是。 我想知道这将如何进行，但实际上我在那里有很多灵活性。 我认为Mac原生版本就是一个很好的例子，它首先要做的是，它有一个小的开关，上面写着“使用原生元素”。 但是，如果您这样做了–如果您说的是Mac版本，仅使用本机元素，那么系统提供的本机元素实际上看起来确实过时了，并且Leopard说，您可以通过实际创建所有这些元素来更好地与它们集成…

Kevin: Because Apple has done that themselves in so much of their software now. Things like iTunes, for example, are virtually entirely custom controls at this point.

凯文：因为苹果现在已经在许多软件中做到了这一点。 例如，此时iTunes之类的东西实际上完全是自定义控件。

Jon: Yeah, exactly. If you just use native elements to draw it, it looks like a bad Java application. By using the skin system, actually I was surprised at how much better it was at, I guess, mimicking a lot of the native UI, but it makes such a big difference.

乔恩：是的，确实如此。 如果仅使用本机元素来绘制它，则它看起来像是一个不良的Java应用程序。 通过使用皮肤系统，实际上我很惊讶它模仿了很多本机UI，但效果却如此之大。

Kevin: So this “use native elements” switch, is this a user accessible option, or is this something in the skin system that you’re talking about?

凯文：那么这是“使用本机元素”开关，这是用户可访问的选项，还是您在谈论的皮肤系统中的某些东西？

Jon: Yeah, it’s something in the skin system and basically the skin file is just a text file with referencing images where necessary, and it’s just a switch, either “native = 1” or “native = 0”. So when people make their own skins, that’s something that they can play with. And again, that’s something that’s caused a little bit trouble on working on the Windows native skin, which is even harder because with Windows, there is so many different theme possibilities – the classic, the different color versions in XP, Aero, standard Vista Blue that you get in Windows 7 and Windows Vista – there is a lot of different native themes going on. Whereas with Mac, it’s kind of – if you design it to look like a Leopard application as much as possible, then you’re home and dry, really.

乔恩：是的，这是皮肤系统中的东西，基本上，皮肤文件只是一个文本文件，在需要时可以引用图像，并且它只是一个开关，“ native = 1”或“ native = 0”。 因此，当人们制作自己的皮肤时，他们可以玩这些东西。 再说一遍，这会导致在Windows本机皮肤上工作时遇到一些麻烦，这更加困难，因为在Windows中，存在许多不同的主题可能性–经典，XP中的不同颜色版本，Aero，标准Vista Blue在Windows 7和Windows Vista中获得的体验–发生了许多不同的本机主题。 而对于Mac，这是一种–如果您将其设计为尽可能看起来更像Leopard应用程序，那么您就可以在家中干活了。

Kevin: Right. Apple has been known to change shades of gray between versions but for a particular OS on the Mac, it’s pretty fixed. Whereas Windows users can do a lot to mess with the system skin. You could find yourself with a bright red browser chrome if that’s really what the user wanted. Okay.

凯文：对。 众所周知，苹果会在不同版本之间更改灰色阴影，但对于Mac上的特定操作系统，它是相当固定的。 Windows用户可以在很大程度上破坏系统外观。 如果这确实是用户想要的，则可以使用亮红色的浏览器镶边找到自己。 好的。

Jon: Exactly. Even the built in options, there is a lot of choice there. I’m coming to the point where I almost think we need to have a specific native theme for Windows 7, not necessarily for the older versions, but looking forward – I think Windows 7 is going to be quite popular compared to Vista. I’m thinking I might be pushing for something that fits the Aero and blue theme of Windows 7 particularly.

乔恩：是的 。 即使是内置选项，也有很多选择。 我要说的是，我几乎认为我们需要为Windows 7提供一个特定的本机主题，不一定是较旧的版本，但展望–与Windows Vista相比，我认为Windows 7将变得非常流行。 我在想，我可能会寻求一些特别适合Windows 7 Aero和蓝色主题的东西。

Kevin: Browsers like Google Chrome and, I guess Safari to some extent, seem to – the direction they’re taking with their design seems to be to de-emphasize the chrome as much as possible, and they could take less screen area and even – they seem to be going to the extent of even reducing the contrast in their controls to reduce the amount of attention they draw away from the page. I’d say that looking at the current Opera 10 beta, you seem to be embracing a lusher, more vibrant look to the controls; is that fair to say?

凯文(Kevin)：谷歌浏览器之类的浏览器，以及我认为是Safari的某种程度上，它们在设计中所采用的方向似乎是尽可能地减少对chrome的重视，并且它们可能占用更少的屏幕区域，甚至–他们似乎在某种程度上甚至要降低控件的对比度，以减少从页面吸引的注意力。 我想说的是，从当前的Opera 10 beta开始，您似乎对控件的外观更加悦目，更具活力。 这公平吗？

Jon: To an extent, yeah. I mean I think the big difference at the moment – because we’re all going on the same kind of lines except that Opera – there is an element where Opera needs to sort of stand on its own and not just look like any other browser.

乔恩：在一定程度上，是的。 我的意思是，我认为目前存在很大差异-因为除了Opera之外，我们都处在同一行上，Opera需要一种元素，而Opera需要自己站立，而不仅仅是其他浏览器。

Kevin: That dark tab bar is really striking now.

凯文：那个黑暗的标签栏现在真的很引人注目。

Jon: Yeah, that’s the one. And in some ways, it’s quite a controversial choice, but the reason that’s there is – there are several reasons – but the main thing is to provide contrast to the tabs. So if there is one area to lead the eye to, it’s the tabs and the fact that you’ve got all your different pages there and particularly for the tab thumbnails, it works well for that as a contrast.

乔恩：是的。 在某些方面，这是一个颇具争议的选择，但存在的原因-有多种原因-但主要的目的是与选项卡形成对比。 因此，如果有一个区域可以吸引您的注意力，那就是选项卡，而且您在那里拥有所有不同的页面，尤其是选项卡缩略图，这一事实非常适合作为对比。

In the same way, we’re doing the same thing – we’re trying to take out as many pixels as possible without feeling cramped and to give as much real estate as possible. In that sense, yes, we’re going the same route but at the same time, we don’t want Opera to look too bland. We’re going for things like these sort of very contrasting tabs as a way of differentiating ourselves from the crowd.

以同样的方式，我们正在做同样的事情–我们试图在不感到局促的情况下尽可能多地取出像素，并提供尽可能多的空间。 从这个意义上讲，是的，我们要走同一条路线，但同时，我们不希望Opera显得过于平淡。 我们正在寻找诸如此类的对比鲜明的标签，以使自己与众不同。

Kevin: Here is another question from our editor, Matt Magain – I suppose you must have gotten used to working as a contract designer and even working from home for a long time, but now you’ve joined Opera and although you are working remotely, you’re working as a full time salaried employee, I understand. How has that changed life for you, personally and professionally? What benefits has that brought you and what challenges has that thrown up for you?

凯文：这是我们编辑Matt Mattain 提出的另一个问题 –我想您一定已经习惯于担任合同设计师，甚至在家里工作了很长时间，但现在您已经加入Opera，尽管您正在远程工作，我了解您是一名全职受薪雇员。 那对您个人和职业的生活有何改变？ 带给您的好处是什么？带给您的挑战是什么？

Jon: It’s quite a vulgar thing to say, but there is a thing of taking a salary, you don’t earn as much as you can if you’re a contractor. With a contractor, you have that opportunity to earn a lot more. So in this sense, it wasn’t a decision that was money driven.

乔恩：说的很庸俗，但是有薪水的事情，如果你是承包商，你的收入就不会多。 与承包商合作，您将有机会赚取更多。 因此，从这个意义上讲，这不是金钱驱动的决定。

One of the big advantages actually is that rather than spending a lot of my time answering inquiries, writing proposals, and quotes and estimates, I’m actually getting time to do work and do the creative stuff. I know some people who think of moving from say freelance to say a full time job as being a bit of a sort of cramp on creativity but actually, I find it the opposite. Being freelance, there is so much admin and crap to deal with on a day to day basis that actually then is not an issue any more. That’s a big advantage.

实际上，最大的优势之一是，与其花很多时间来回答查询，撰写建议以及报价和估计，我实际上是在抽出时间从事工作和进行创意工作。 我认识一些人，他们认为从说自由职业者转变为说全职工作有点像对创意的抽筋，但实际上，我发现相反。 作为自由职业者，每天有太多的管理员和事务要处理，因此实际上不再是问题。 那是一个很大的优势。

Generally, it’s just nice to be part of a team because I always find this with projects that are sort of fairly long term is that you get very friendly with people and it’s great working together and solving stuff together and then suddenly, the project’s over and you don’t get to see those people anymore. I like that kind of more permanence of dealing with a team and working alongside people, even if I’m working remotely, which I am.

通常，很高兴能成为一个团队的一员，因为我经常在相当长期的项目中发现这一点，那就是您与人之间变得非常友好，并且一起工作并共同解决问题很棒，然后突然，项目结束了，你不会再见到那些人了。 我喜欢与团队打交道并与人并肩工作，即使我在远程工作，这种感觉也更持久。

Kevin: In my other life as a manager at SitePoint, I interview a lot of developer candidates who are looking to join the team and often when we’re speaking to someone who has worked on their own at home, as a freelancer, what we find is they have had a lot more trouble justifying taking time off from billable hours to do something like explore what’s new in the next version of the browser that’s just been released.

凯文(Kevin)：在担任SitePoint经理的那一生中，我采访了许多希望加入团队的开发人员候选人，而且经常在我们与自由职业者在家里与自己工作的人交谈时，他们发现，他们有更多的麻烦来证明需要从可计费时间中抽出时间来做一些事情，例如探索即将发布的下一版浏览器中的新功能。

You’re known as a cutting edge designer, so I assume that you’ve always made time for that kind of thing.

您以最前沿的设计师而著称，所以我认为您一直在花时间做这类事情。

Jon: Oh you flatter me, sir!

琼恩：哦，你很恭维我，先生！

Kevin: At the risk of flattering you – but do you find that that’s easier to make time for now? I don’t want to get you in trouble with the people at Opera who are paying your salary.

凯文：冒着受宠若惊的风险–但是您是否发现现在更容易花些时间？ 我不想让您遇到Opera付薪水的人的麻烦。

Jon: No. I mean this is … certainly I found this, particularly when starting at Opera, is that it’s very much encouraged – I mean you have to keep in touch with what’s going on. And that’s again, something I found difficult when I was freelancing because you have this sort of feel of well, I’m not being paid to do this bit and I know it’s going to benefit me, but the paid work is going to have to take priority and it gets sort of pushed further and further back. Whereas now, actually it’s almost like a sort of daily ritual to spend a little time just catching up on news and seeing what’s happening and what other people are doing, especially the browser manufacturers.

乔恩：不。我的意思是……很肯定我发现了这一点，尤其是从Opera开始时，这是非常受鼓舞的-我的意思是您必须与正在发生的事情保持联系。 再说一遍，当我自由职业时，我发现有些困难，因为您有这种感觉，我没有得到报酬来做这件事，并且我知道这将使我受益，但是有偿工作将不得不优先考虑，它会被推得越来越远。 而现在，实际上几乎像一种日常习惯，就是花一点时间来了解新闻，看看正在发生的事情以及其他人在做什么，尤其是浏览器制造商。

Yeah, I would say it’s almost sort of part of the job really, you’re expected to do.

是的，我想这实际上是工作的一部分，您应该这样做。

Kevin: That’s always good. The last question I have from Matt, our editor, is that you’ve always been quite vocal in your browser agnosticism. Has your new job cured that propensity for experimenting with other browsers, or do you just sort of do it on the sly in your spare time?

凯文：总是很好。 我的编辑马特(Matt) 提出的最后一个问题是，您始终对浏览器不可知论者保持直言不讳。 您的新工作是否已经消除了尝试使用其他浏览器的倾向，还是只是在业余时间巧妙地做到了？

Jon: No, it’s even more. Like you said, you’ve got to research. If someone brings out a new version, you’ve got to test it and you’ve got to study the UI and see what they’re doing and why. So no, if anything, I think it’s made it slightly worse in that I spend more time looking at browsers and other platforms.

乔恩：不，甚至更多。 如您所说，您必须进行研究。 如果有人提出了新版本，则必须对其进行测试，并且必须研究UI并查看他们的工作以及原因。 所以不，如果有的话，我认为由于花更多时间在浏览器和其他平台上而使情况变得更糟。

Yeah, I do think it’s ever going to change. I just like using lots of different browsers, mainly because they each have little features that make them particularly useful for particular tasks.

是的，我确实认为它将永远改变。 我只是喜欢使用许多不同的浏览器，主要是因为它们各自具有的小功能使它们对特定任务特别有用。

Kevin: So you’ll switch browsers when you’re switching tasks, or do you just sort of mix it up every few days?

凯文：所以您在切换任务时会切换浏览器，还是只是每隔几天就将浏览器混在一起？

Jon: Exactly. In some ways, I don’t tend to use Opera at the weekends, simply because that’s work and if I start looking at Opera at the weekend, I start thinking about oh that’s not right, or I need to change that… and then I start opening Fireworks and start changing some of the tab images or something.

乔恩：是的 。 在某些方面，我不倾向于在周末使用Opera，仅因为那是可行的，如果我在周末开始看Opera，就会开始考虑哦，那不正确，或者我需要更改它……然后我开始打开Fireworks并开始更改某些标签图像或其他内容。

Kevin: How long would it really take to fix that pixel?

凯文：修复该像素真的需要多长时间？

Jon: Exactly. Or I’ll just do that and then once you’ve done, then you’ve just seen something else and I’ll just do that. So I don’t tend to.

乔恩：是的 。 否则，我将执行该操作，然后一旦您完成操作，您就会看到其他内容，然后我将执行该操作。 所以我不倾向于。

One of the things in particular that I use Opera for, which is a great feature – anything like image research, going through lots of Google Images pages and that kind of thing – because if you just keep pressing the space bar obviously, the page scrolls down, but at the very bottom of the page and you press space, it goes to the next page. So this makes it so much nicer to be able to just keyboard navigate lots of these things – basically anything on these pages that have an obvious next link, and if it’s marked up well, Opera will recognize it and you just keep pressing the space bar and keep scrolling through all these pages. That’s an amazing time saver.

我使用Opera时尤其要注意的一件事，就是它的一个很棒的功能–诸如图像研究之类的功能，它会遍历许多Google图像页面，诸如此类–因为如果您一直按住空格键，页面会滚动向下，但在页面的最底部并按空格键，它将转到下一页。 因此，使用键盘导航很多事情变得非常好–基本上，这些页面上的任何内容都有明显的下一个链接，如果标记正确，Opera会识别出来，而您只需按住空格键即可并继续滚动浏览所有这些页面。 这真是节省时间。

But as I say, I would tend to avoid it of the weekends just simply because I get sucked into work again. I use Safari as well, and I keep up to date with Camino, as well and what they’re doing – not so much Firefox actually because my general experience of Firefox on the Mac is a bit slow and a bit cumbersome.

但是正如我说的那样，我倾向于避免在周末仅仅因为我又开始沉迷于工作。 我也使用Safari，并且我也与Camino保持同步，了解它们在做什么-实际上，Firefox并不是很多，因为我在Mac上使用Firefox的一般经验有点慢且有点麻烦。

Kevin: Yeah, I have to admit, Firefox on the Mac has become my development browser; I use it when I need the dev tools that come with the addons. It’s not my walking around browser anymore.

Kevin: Yeah, I have to admit, Firefox on the Mac has become my development browser; I use it when I need the dev tools that come with the addons. It's not my walking around browser anymore.

Jon: Again, this is one of the things that I’m hoping to have some time to work with is that Opera have this great tool, Dragonfly, which is in some ways, a fiber competitor but there are a few things it can do that a fiber can’t. But it does need some UI love and that’s something I’m hoping to work on to help Opera become more of a development browser as well.

Jon: Again, this is one of the things that I'm hoping to have some time to work with is that Opera have this great tool, Dragonfly , which is in some ways, a fiber competitor but there are a few things it can do that a fiber can't. But it does need some UI love and that's something I'm hoping to work on to help Opera become more of a development browser as well.

Kevin: Is Opera’s user base very different from the general audience of, say, Internet Explorer or even Firefox? Are there some assumptions you could make about the user base when you were going into your design work that you couldn’t make with another browser?

Kevin: Is Opera's user base very different from the general audience of, say, Internet Explorer or even Firefox? Are there some assumptions you could make about the user base when you were going into your design work that you couldn't make with another browser?

Jon: In some ways the difference is more geographic actually than the type of person. I mean I guess you could say that a lot of Opera users tend to be power users; that’s one of the reasons to use Opera is because there is a lot of features that people don’t know about – they can keep discovering new stuff. I only found out a few months ago that you could lock tabs in Opera, to stop them from being closed accidentally.

Jon: In some ways the difference is more geographic actually than the type of person. I mean I guess you could say that a lot of Opera users tend to be power users; that's one of the reasons to use Opera is because there is a lot of features that people don't know about – they can keep discovering new stuff. I only found out a few months ago that you could lock tabs in Opera, to stop them from being closed accidentally.

Kevin: Oh!

凯文：哦！

Jon: Yeah, exactly. That’s what I said.

Jon: Yeah, exactly. That's what I said.

I think, generally, they tend to be more sort of tech savvy power users but at the same time, you can’t necessarily design with that in mind; you’ve still got to design for someone like your grandparents, to see if it’s something that they could use too. That’s why part of the default install of Opera is actually very minimal and the mindset is that over time, you can reveal more features.

I think, generally, they tend to be more sort of tech savvy power users but at the same time, you can't necessarily design with that in mind; you've still got to design for someone like your grandparents, to see if it's something that they could use too. That's why part of the default install of Opera is actually very minimal and the mindset is that over time, you can reveal more features.

For example, things like there is no mention of Mail in any of the menus. But once you’ve added a mail account in your preferences, then the Mail menu appears and you have the Mail option. The idea is to sort of give you things to experiment and play with over time and discover more new features.

For example, things like there is no mention of Mail in any of the menus. But once you've added a mail account in your preferences, then the Mail menu appears and you have the Mail option. The idea is to sort of give you things to experiment and play with over time and discover more new features.

Kevin: I suppose similarly, the temptation might be there to have the panels sitting wide open the first time you launch the browser – tada! Here’s all the features!

Kevin: I suppose similarly, the temptation might be there to have the panels sitting wide open the first time you launch the browser – tada! Here's all the features!

Jon: Yeah, exactly. In some ways, you’d love to do that because there are a lot of features. Part of the UI design is disoverability and how do you make things discoverable. But yes, for a default, you do have to hide these things.

Jon: Yeah, exactly. In some ways, you'd love to do that because there are a lot of features. Part of the UI design is disoverability and how do you make things discoverable. But yes, for a default, you do have to hide these things.

Kevin: So instead, you have a tantalizing little icon in the corner that hopefully, one day when they’re feeling a little ambitious, they might click it and see what it does.

Kevin: So instead, you have a tantalizing little icon in the corner that hopefully, one day when they're feeling a little ambitious, they might click it and see what it does.

Jon: Yeah. But I would say if there are differences, it would be geographic and it tends that the market where Opera is quite small, would be America, for example. A lot of browser market statistics might only say use America for those statistics, whereas actually globally and particularly in areas like Eastern Russia and Eastern Europe, Opera does very well. Not that that makes any difference necessarily for the way you design, although you do have to be very careful, especially things like internal pages – like the about pages or config – it’s that you make sure that you design it for things like different writing directions and that you specify fonts that have the right characters. It’s little things like that.

Jon: Yeah. But I would say if there are differences, it would be geographic and it tends that the market where Opera is quite small, would be America, for example. A lot of browser market statistics might only say use America for those statistics, whereas actually globally and particularly in areas like Eastern Russia and Eastern Europe, Opera does very well. Not that that makes any difference necessarily for the way you design, although you do have to be very careful, especially things like internal pages – like the about pages or config – it's that you make sure that you design it for things like different writing directions and that you specify fonts that have the right characters. It's little things like that.

Kevin: Internationalization must be a bigger blip on your radar than it would be for, say – I was going to say an Internet Explorer developer but Microsoft probably have to consider that a lot too.

Kevin: Internationalization must be a bigger blip on your radar than it would be for, say – I was going to say an Internet Explorer developer but Microsoft probably have to consider that a lot too.

Jon: But again, I think they’ve the Internet Explorer user is a slightly different demographic. I would say the largest percentage would be people using Internet Explorer because that’s what their IT department have installed – they haven’t installed any other browsers, so that’s what you use and that’s what your internal intranets are developed to use.

Jon: But again, I think they've the Internet Explorer user is a slightly different demographic. I would say the largest percentage would be people using Internet Explorer because that's what their IT department have installed – they haven't installed any other browsers, so that's what you use and that's what your internal intranets are developed to use.

Kevin: What are some of the little details that are visible in Opera 10 that maybe you’re really proud of but you recognize that probably no one’s going to notice, apart from yourself? Take us on a little tour, if you can.

Kevin: What are some of the little details that are visible in Opera 10 that maybe you're really proud of but you recognize that probably no one's going to notice, apart from yourself? Take us on a little tour, if you can.

Jon: {laughs} Let me think. One thing that’s quite interesting is that this dark tab bar is quite distracting for some people and it feels quite alien to them, particularly on a Windows machine. But what they’ve maybe not noticed is the fact that I’ve spent a lot of time mimicking little widgets, such as close buttons and the little triangles you get for toggling tree views. These little things like this, they’re all part of making it sort of be a good desktop citizen for things like Windows Vista and Windows 7. But it’s certainly something that no one has picked up on yet. No one has said “Oh great, I’ve got the proper little widgets for closing tabs.”

Jon: {laughs} Let me think. One thing that's quite interesting is that this dark tab bar is quite distracting for some people and it feels quite alien to them, particularly on a Windows machine. But what they've maybe not noticed is the fact that I've spent a lot of time mimicking little widgets, such as close buttons and the little triangles you get for toggling tree views. These little things like this, they're all part of making it sort of be a good desktop citizen for things like Windows Vista and Windows 7. But it's certainly something that no one has picked up on yet. No one has said “Oh great, I've got the proper little widgets for closing tabs.”

Kevin: So that’s like matching it to whatever platform. So on Windows, you’d expect a square with a + in it, whereas on the Mac, you’d expect a little triangle that turns, is that what you’re talking about?

Kevin: So that's like matching it to whatever platform. So on Windows, you'd expect a square with a + in it, whereas on the Mac, you'd expect a little triangle that turns, is that what you're talking about?

Jon: Exactly. There are little subtle differences in the Mac skin and what’s called the standard skin. If people do notice them, I think it’s probably the kind of thing that you wouldn’t necessarily mention. {laughing} It just seems too insignificant.

Jon: Exactly. There are little subtle differences in the Mac skin and what's called the standard skin. If people do notice them, I think it's probably the kind of thing that you wouldn't necessarily mention. {laughing} It just seems too insignificant.

Kevin: They are all the things that are only noticed when you get them wrong.

Kevin: They are all the things that are only noticed when you get them wrong.

Jon: Well, I think so, yeah, exactly. It sort of stands out a mile if it looks odd. But if it doesn’t look odd, then it’s doing its job and it’s blending in.

Jon: Well, I think so, yeah, exactly. It sort of stands out a mile if it looks odd. But if it doesn't look odd, then it's doing its job and it's blending in.

That’s probably the only thing I can think of; everything else is sort of fairly obvious and has been picked up on. I was particularly happy with the design of the panels and the new visual tabs.

That's probably the only thing I can think of; everything else is sort of fairly obvious and has been picked up on. I was particularly happy with the design of the panels and the new visual tabs.

Kevin: I like them too. They’re a little different from everything else, but in kind of a good way. They feel tactile, they feel like bits of paper sticking out rather than, I suppose, plastic tabs that you normally see in the OS chrome.

Kevin: I like them too. They're a little different from everything else, but in kind of a good way. They feel tactile, they feel like bits of paper sticking out rather than, I suppose, plastic tabs that you normally see in the OS chrome.

Jon: That’s good. Yeah. Tactile.

Jon: That's good. 是的 Tactile.

Kevin: One last question from the SitePoint forums. armchaircritic wants to know if you’ve had a go at redesigning the Opera logo yet?

Kevin: One last question from the SitePoint forums. armchaircritic wants to know if you've had a go at redesigning the Opera logo yet?

Jon: {laughing} I thought I wasn’t going to get away with that one.

Jon: {laughing} I thought I wasn't going to get away with that one.

Kevin: You did mention that in your blog post when you got the job.

Kevin: You did mention that in your blog post when you got the job.

Jon: Yeah, yeah, exactly. The answer is yes, I have. And if the next question was have those designs been accepted and are they going to be used, the answer is no. {laughing} I think in some ways, it’s a difficult one to talk about because I think the CEO mentioned on the Question & Answer session a couple of months back that it is something that they are looking at, then I think we can say that yes, we are working on it.

Jon: Yeah, yeah, exactly. The answer is yes, I have. And if the next question was have those designs been accepted and are they going to be used, the answer is no. {laughing} I think in some ways, it's a difficult one to talk about because I think the CEO mentioned on the Question & Answer session a couple of months back that it is something that they are looking at, then I think we can say that yes, we are working on it.

Kevin: The more they’re looking at it, the less you can talk about it, I would say.

Kevin: The more they're looking at it, the less you can talk about it, I would say.

Jon: Yeah, exactly.

Jon: Yeah, exactly.

Kevin: They are using… there is multiple versions of the Opera logo, like the one that’s on the application is kind of the shiny glossy one but on the web site, you see kind of a flat version, it’s a little more web 2.0, if I can use that term.

Kevin: They are using… there is multiple versions of the Opera logo, like the one that's on the application is kind of the shiny glossy one but on the web site, you see kind of a flat version, it's a little more web 2.0, if I can use that term.

Jon: Yeah. This is the problem – people do recognize that the Opera logo is awful and needs to be changed. And this is why internally – like on certain things, like the websites and Opera mini and that kind of thing – where possible, people will try and create their own version just so they can get away from it. It’s a difficult one to change though because it’s been that way for a long time and it is – for good or for worse – it is recognized as Opera. So how far do you change it without making it not feel like Opera.

Jon: Yeah. This is the problem – people do recognize that the Opera logo is awful and needs to be changed. And this is why internally – like on certain things, like the websites and Opera mini and that kind of thing – where possible, people will try and create their own version just so they can get away from it. It's a difficult one to change though because it's been that way for a long time and it is – for good or for worse – it is recognized as Opera. So how far do you change it without making it not feel like Opera.

Kevin: Very tricky.

Kevin: Very tricky.

Jon: It’s a very fine line to do, but we’re hoping – hoping – hoping that by the time Opera 10 final comes out, we will have a new logo – a new icon, at least.

Jon: It's a very fine line to do, but we're hoping – hoping – hoping that by the time Opera 10 final comes out, we will have a new logo – a new icon, at least.

Kevin: Wow. And finally, one last question. Andrew Krespanis, a developer here at SitePoint, wants to know from you what cheese you find the most inspiring?

凯文：哇。 And finally, one last question. Andrew Krespanis, a developer here at SitePoint, wants to know from you what cheese you find the most inspiring?

Jon: {laughing} I love the little inflection you put on the end there. {laughing} It’s almost like dream-like inspiring.

Jon: {laughing} I love the little inflection you put on the end there. {laughing} It's almost like dream-like inspiring.

Kevin: You are a big fan of the cheeses.

Kevin: You are a big fan of the cheeses.

Jon: {laughing} Oh goodness, yes. Let me think. This is a hard one to say, isn’t it – like saying to someone to pick your favorite artist.

Jon: {laughing} Oh goodness, yes. Let me think. This is a hard one to say, isn't it – like saying to someone to pick your favorite artist.

Kevin: Of all the questions we’ve covered so far, this is the most serious to you.

Kevin: Of all the questions we've covered so far, this is the most serious to you.

Jon: I would go for cave-aged gruyere. This is a particular type of gruyere, and often when you go to the supermarket and get gruyere, it’s that slightly sort of plastic-y cheese, but if you’ve ever had the proper mature cave-aged stuff, it’s a little bit like Parmesan.

Jon: I would go for cave-aged gruyere. This is a particular type of gruyere, and often when you go to the supermarket and get gruyere, it's that slightly sort of plastic-y cheese, but if you've ever had the proper mature cave-aged stuff, it's a little bit like Parmesan.

Kevin: I’ve only ever had gruyere in a hot dish. Do you eat it by itself?

Kevin: I've only ever had gruyere in a hot dish. Do you eat it by itself?

Jon: I eat it either cold or hot. That’s the great thing about cheese – every cheese can be cooked and has a different flavor when cooked. But I think that is probably my favorite, especially in something like a tuna melt, gruyere is the best cheese to go with tuna. I’m pretty happy with that decision. I’ll go with gruyere.

Jon: I eat it either cold or hot. That's the great thing about cheese – every cheese can be cooked and has a different flavor when cooked. But I think that is probably my favorite, especially in something like a tuna melt, gruyere is the best cheese to go with tuna. I'm pretty happy with that decision. I'll go with gruyere.

Kevin: Good. Before I let you go, I have to ask for the fans in our audience, is the Rissington podcast coming back?

凯文：好。 Before I let you go, I have to ask for the fans in our audience, is the Rissington podcast coming back?

Jon: Yes, it is!

Jon: Yes, it is!

Kevin: A little while ago, SitePoint actually gave you guys some books to find a new name. Did you find something that you …

Kevin: A little while ago, SitePoint actually gave you guys some books to find a new name. Did you find something that you …

Jon: We did. A guy known as Phone Cow, and he’s quite local, came up with a name Webble Mill.

Jon: We did. A guy known as Phone Cow, and he's quite local, came up with a name Webble Mill.

To explain that, we used to have this show at lunchtimes in the UK back in the sort of 70s and 80s called Pebble Mill, which is where the show was being recorded. So they’ve taken the fact that we’re working next to a watermill, combined it and made Webble Mill. It was just fantastic.

To explain that, we used to have this show at lunchtimes in the UK back in the sort of 70s and 80s called Pebble Mill, which is where the show was being recorded. So they've taken the fact that we're working next to a watermill, combined it and made Webble Mill. It was just fantastic.

Kevin: Very nice.

Kevin: Very nice.

Jon: Yes, it was very generous of you to give the books out for the competition, and we got some great entries. We’ve gone for Webble Mill. It’s going to be called “The Rissington podcast live from Webble Mill” – just a nice snappy title. There will be one.

Jon: Yes, it was very generous of you to give the books out for the competition, and we got some great entries. We've gone for Webble Mill. It's going to be called “The Rissington podcast live from Webble Mill” – just a nice snappy title. There will be one.

We’re just having a bit of a problem getting John and I together in the same room, not because of any arguments, but just because of work. We’re definitely intending to record more. It’s just that work gets in the way.

We're just having a bit of a problem getting John and I together in the same room, not because of any arguments, but just because of work. We're definitely intending to record more. It's just that work gets in the way.

Kevin: We all look forward to it. Thanks for the chat today.

Kevin: We all look forward to it. Thanks for the chat today.

Jon: No problem. It’s been great talking to you, Kevin.

Jon: No problem. It's been great talking to you, Kevin.

Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.

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翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-21-jon-hicks/