SitePoint播客＃157：Paul Boag的以客户为中心的Web设计

Episode 157 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week Kevin Dees (@kevindees) interviews Paul Boag (@boagworld) of BoagWorld and Headscape about his new eBook Client Centric Web Design.

SitePoint Podcast的第157集现已发布！ 本周，凯文·迪斯(Kevin Dees)( @kevindees )就BoagWorld和Headscape的 Paul Boag( @boagworld )采访了他的新电子书客户端中心网络设计 。

下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)

You can download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

您可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：

• SitePoint Podcast #157: Client Centric Web Design with Paul Boag (MP3, 41:15, 39.6MB)

  SitePoint播客＃157：Paul Boag的以客户为中心的Web设计 (MP3，41:15，39.6MB)

剧集摘要 (Episode Summary)

Kevin and Paul talk in some detail on how we need to make sure our communications with our clients put them at the center of the design process, have them feeling a sense of ownership of the project, and use all their knowledge and skills as well as ours.

凯文(Kevin)和保罗(Paul)详细讨论了我们如何确保与客户的沟通将他们置于设计过程的中心，让他们感到对项目的主人翁意识，并运用他们的所有知识和技能以及我们的。

Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/157.

浏览http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/157中显示的参考链接的完整列表。

面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)

Kevin: Hi, and welcome to the SitePoint Podcast. I’m Kevin Dees and today I’m joined by Mr. Paul Boag; welcome, Paul.

凯文：您好，欢迎来到SitePoint播客。 我是凯文·迪斯(Kevin Dees)，今天有保罗·博阿格(Paul Boag)先生加入。 欢迎，保罗。

Paul: Hi, it’s really good to be on the show, thank you for having me yet again, it’s good to be back.

保罗：嗨，参加演出真是太好了，谢谢您再来一次，回来很高兴。

Kevin: Yes, yes. So I don’t believe I interviewed you before on the SitePoint podcast, but we have spoken a few times now so it’s good to hear your voice.

凯文：是的，是的。 因此，我不相信我之前曾在SitePoint播客上采访过您，但是我们已经发言了几次，因此很高兴听到您的声音。

Paul: Yes, and of course we met at South by, not this time round but previously, so it’s good to catch up again.

保罗：是的，我们当然是在南方碰面的，不是这次，而是以前的，所以再次赶上来是很好的。

Kevin: Yes, it is. So, today we have you on to talk about something I feel deeply about and I know you feel deeply about, which is the focus of websites and designs. And not only that, but also where agency and application development on the Web kind of come into play and some of the parts of that. And this is going to be an interview about your book, Paul, which is Client Centric Web Design, correct?

凯文：是的。 因此，今天我们要与您谈谈我深有感触的事情，并且我知道您深有感触，这是网站和设计的重点。 不仅如此，而且Web上的代理和应用程序开发在其中起作用以及其中的某些部分。 这将是关于您的书Paul的采访，这是Client Centric Web Design，对吗？

Paul: Yep, that’s right.

保罗：是的，是的。

Kevin: Okay. So, before we get into that I feel that I should introduce you, a proper introduction anyways.

凯文：好的。 所以，在我们开始讨论之前，我觉得我应该向您介绍，无论如何都要适当介绍。

Paul: Okay.

保罗：好的。

Kevin: So, Paul, if you don’t know who Paul is, Paul does the Boagworld website, he also does the Boagworld Podcast which has been going on for some time now, many years; how many years now?

凯文：所以，保罗，如果您不知道保罗是谁，保罗会在Boagworld网站上做，他也会在Boagworld Podcast上进行直播，这种情况已经持续了很多年了。 现在多少年了？

Paul: I’ve no idea how many years.

保罗：我不知道有多少年。

Kevin: (Laughs)

凯文：(笑)

Paul: All I know is that there weren’t any others around when I started.

保罗：我所知道的是，当我开始工作时，周围没有其他人。

Kevin: Right. So, Paul is an established speaker, you’ve written a few books now, self-authored a few, and you also have The Website Owner’s Manual, correct?

凯文：对。 因此，保罗是一位知名人士，您现在已经写了几本书，自己写了几本书，并且您还拥有《网站所有者手册》，对吗？

Paul: Yep, that’s right.

保罗：是的，是的。

Kevin: And so again today we want to talk about Client Centric Web Design which is your new eBook, self-published book, correct?

凯文：所以今天我们又要谈一谈以客户为中心的Web设计，这是您的新电子书，是自出版的书，对吗？

Paul: Yeah, it’s to go with the third season of the podcast I do, so each season I’m trying now to do an associated eBook with it.

保罗：是的，这与播客的第三季有关，所以每个赛季我都在尝试与此相关的电子书。

Kevin: Well, I think this book is an interesting perspective on the way websites are developed because usually, if you haven’t noticed from the title already, it’s Client Centric Web Design, not user centric web design, which is really what most web designers, or designers in any field, think about is design based around the user.

凯文：嗯，我认为这本书是有关网站开发方式的有趣观点，因为通常，如果您尚未从标题中注意到，那就是以客户为中心的Web设计，而不是以用户为中心的Web设计，这实际上是大多数Web所需要的。设计师，或者任何领域的设计师，都在考虑基于用户的设计。

Paul: Hmm-mm.

保罗：嗯。

Kevin: And so you have this different take on where agencies and freelancers and those who work on the Web should put their focus, which is on the client. And so I’m hoping maybe you can explain just a little bit about Client Centric Web Design, and then I’ll have more questions around the way.

凯文：因此，对于代理商和自由职业者以及那些在Web上工作的人应该把重点放在客户上，您有不同的看法。 因此，我希望您可以对以客户为中心的Web设计进行一些解释，然后再提出更多问题。

Paul: Sure.

保罗：当然。

Kevin: But what is Client Centric Web Design.

凯文：但以客户为中心的Web设计是什么。

Paul: It’s interesting, isn’t it? We’ve been going on about we must user centric, we must be user centric, which of course is true, we know this to be true; I’ve got three principles of client centric design, because first of all you have to make up a fancy title for something if you want it to be adopted in the web design community, there’s Ajax and Responsive Design and Progressive Enhancement, all these things, so I came up with this title, Client Centric Web Design, and it’s got these three principles. And one of the principles is that — which is probably the most controversial one, the one that you’ve just touched on, is this idea that actually user centric design, this idea of putting the user first, is actually not as important as client centric design; sure it’s important, but it kind of sits as a subsidiary of client centric design. So let me explain what I mean.

保罗：很有趣，不是吗？ 我们一直在努力，必须以用户为中心，我们必须以用户为中心，这当然是正确的，我们知道这是正确的。 我已经掌握了以客户为中心的设计的三个原则，因为首先，如果您想在网页设计社区中采用某个东西，就必须为其冠以花哨的标题，其中包括Ajax和响应式设计以及渐进增强，所有这些东西，因此我想到了这个标题“以客户为中心的Web设计”，它具有这三个原则。 其中一项原则是-可能是最有争议的原则，您刚才提到的原则是，实际上以用户为中心的设计，这种以用户为先的想法实际上并不像客户那么重要。中心设计 当然这很重要，但它可以作为以客户为中心的设计的附属机构。 所以，让我解释一下我的意思。

You get this scenario where most of the time it is true to say that you want to make your site user centric because without your users being happy your users will leave, if they leave then you’re going to go out of business. But notice what you’re saying there which is that ultimately the reason that you’re user centric is so that the business succeeds. And sometimes I think we get so caught up in this idea of being user centric that we almost put the cart before the horse, we almost end up saying it’s more important to please the user than it is to meet the business needs, to meet the client’s needs. Now, most of the time the two are compatible, but just occasionally they get out of line, and it’s important that you know which is more important, so let me give you an example. There was a law firm that we did some work for, and this law firm all the users that went to the website cared only about one thing, and that one thing was going and seeing the biography of the particular attorney that they were either, you now, was either representing them or they were thinking of hiring or they were opposing counsel of, or whatever else, so the bios were everything. And that’s because in the world of attorneys it’s the person that matters, the superstar, the expert in this particular field of law.

在这种情况下，大多数情况下您确实可以说以站点用户为中心，因为如果用户不满意，您的用户就会离开，如果他们离开了，那么您将倒闭。 但是请注意您在说什么，这最终是您以用户为中心的原因，以便业务成功。 有时，我认为我们对以用户为中心的想法非常了解，以至于我们几乎把购物车摆在了前面，我们几乎最终说，取悦用户比满足业务需求，满足客户需求更为重要。客户的需求。 现在，大多数情况下两者是兼容的，但偶尔它们会脱节，重要的是要知道哪个更重要，所以让我举个例子。 有一家律师事务所，我们为之工作，而该律师事务所访问该网站的所有用户只关心一件事，而那件事正在发生，并且要查看特定律师的传记，他们就是现在，要么代表他们，要么他们正在考虑聘用他们，或者他们反对该组织的顾问，或者其他什么，所以个人简介就是一切。 那是因为在律师界，重要的是人，超级明星，这个特定法律领域的专家。

But the problem is from a business point of view is that these attorneys come and go, they move between company, so it’s really important form a business perspective that users aren’t just impressed by the individual superstar attorney, but they’re also impressed by the organization, so maybe if that attorney moves on they still stick with the company. So even though the user’s requirement was show me the attorney information, show me the attorney information, from a business perspective it was more important to give that broader view. So that’s why I say that the business needs have to supersede the user’s needs in those rare occasions when the clash. Now in that situation obviously we can still send users through to the attorney information, but we want to expose them to other stuff too. So it’s kind of getting that balance I think is so important.

但是从业务的角度来看，问题在于这些律师在公司之间来回走动，因此从业务角度来看，从用户的角度不仅让单个超级明星律师给用户留下深刻印象，而且对他们也印象深刻，这是非常重要的由该组织负责，因此，如果该律师继续任职，他们仍然会坚持与公司合作。 因此，即使用户的要求是向我显示律师信息，向我显示律师信息，但从业务角度来说，提供更广阔的视野也更为重要。 因此，这就是为什么我说在少数情况下，业务需求必须取代用户的需求。 显然，在这种情况下，我们仍然可以将用户发送给律师信息，但我们也想让他们了解其他信息。 因此，获得这种平衡非常重要。

Kevin: Right. You know just the other day I saw something on Amazon, and they had completely replaced their standard homepage, there were no recommended selling points or anything like that, it was just this body of text, it was an announcement that the company was making to me as their customer. It was just right after I had finished reading this, and you know I had to sit down and think, I was like, you know, it’s true, right, like they have an objective, it’s not just to sell things to me and to get me the things that I need, but also to make sure that I’m aware of what their business is and what they’re doing.

凯文：对。 您知道有一天，我在亚马逊上看到了一些东西，他们已经完全取代了他们的标准主页，没有推荐的卖点或类似的东西，仅仅是本文的内容，这是该公司正在宣布的我作为他们的客户。 就在我读完这篇文章之后，你知道我必须坐下来思考，我想，这是真的，是对的，就像他们有目标一样，这不仅仅是向我和他人推销东西。给我我需要的东西，还要确保我知道他们的业务是什么以及他们在做什么。

Paul: Yeah.

保罗：是的。

Kevin: And so —

凯文：等等-

Paul: Absolutely.

保罗：绝对。

Kevin: Yeah, I think it’s a really good point that you’re making here.

凯文：是的，我认为您在这里提出的要点非常好。

Paul: Yeah. So that’s one point of Client Centric Design. The other one is this principle that we should collaborate with our clients, right, I think so many of us have had bad experiences with clients over the years that we’ve got into this situation of kind of excluding them from the process, you know, so we have this attitude of we’re going to limit the number of iterations that we’re going to do on the design, and we’re going to go away and produce this thing of beauty and then we’re going to present it to them and they’re going to love it. But actually client want to work with you on the website, not just for you to produce something for them, and I believe a fundamental part of good client centric web design is this idea you work collaboratively with a client, and that a whole plethora of benefits comes out of doing that.

保罗：是的。 这就是“以客户为中心”设计的重点。 另一个原则是我们应该与客户合作的原则，对，我想，多年来我们当中很多人在与客户的交流中都经历了糟糕的经历，我们陷入了这种将客户排除在流程之外的情况，所以我们有这样一种态度，我们将限制在设计中要进行的迭代次数，并且我们将放弃并产生这种美丽的事物，然后我们将展示它给他们，他们会喜欢它。 但是实际上客户希望与您在网站上合作，而不仅仅是让您为他们制作东西，而且我认为优质的以客户为中心的网页设计的基本组成部分就是您与客户合作的想法，并且这样做带来的好处。

And the one other kind of underpinning principle of client centric design is the fact that the client has real value to bring to the table, you know, I think oftentimes we think we produce great websites despite the client, you know, that the client just kind of gets in the way. But I really believe it’s impossible to produce a successful website without the client’s involvement. And the reason I think that is because if the client doesn’t feel a sense of ownership over that website, if they don’t feel passionate about it, if they don’t feel it’s their website, then the thing is that they’re going to — they’re not going to invest in the website over the long term, and we walk away and it’s great for five minutes, the website we’ve produced, and then it becomes out of date and obsolete, you know, you need the client to be invested in the website.

而以客户为中心的设计的另一种基础原则是，客户具有真正的价值，可以带到餐桌上，你知道，我认为我们经常会认为尽管客户(客户)只是有点妨碍。 但是我真的相信，如果没有客户的参与，要创建一个成功的网站是不可能的。 我认为这是因为，如果客户对那个网站没有所有权感，如果他们对这个网站没有热情，或者如果他们不觉得那是他们的网站，那么那就是他们再说一遍-他们不会长期投资该网站，我们走了，这对于我们创建的网站来说要持续五分钟，这很好，然后它就会过时和过时，您知道，您需要将客户投资于该网站。

Also, we have this — sometimes we get this arrogant attitude that we know best, but we don’t know the business as well as they do, and the chances are we don’t know their users as well as they do. So I think it’s really important to kind of bring them into the process, so yeah, you can tell I’m quite fired up on this subject (laughs).

此外，我们有这种想法-有时我们会以我们最了解的傲慢态度，但是我们不了解他们的业务以及他们的业务，而且很可能我们不像他们那样了解他们的用户。 因此，我认为将它们引入流程中非常重要，所以，是的，您可以告诉我，我对这个问题非常满意(笑)。

Kevin: Yes, yes. I tried to interrupt you there for a second —

凯文：是的，是的。 我试图在那儿打扰你

Paul: (Laughs)

保罗：(笑)

Kevin: — but I want to jump back to that.

凯文： -但我想回到这一点。

Paul: Yeah, you’ll fail.

保罗：是的，你会失败的。

Kevin: (Laughs) but basically you said that the client needs to be involved in the design process.

凯文：(笑)，但是基本上您说的是，客户需要参与设计过程。

Paul: Yes.

保罗：是的。

Kevin: And help with the design. And you pointed out that that gives them the sense of ownership.

凯文：并协助设计。 您指出，这赋予了他们主人翁感。

Paul: Yep.

保罗：是的 。

Kevin: But doesn’t something like that increase the time scale and the scope of a project and can ultimately lead to overshot budgets where designers or agencies have to eat hours? Like how do you get around this?

凯文：但是，这样的事情是否不会增加项目的时间规模和范围，并最终导致预算过高，而设计师或代理商不得不花几个小时？ 像你如何解决这个问题？

Paul: Yeah. I can kind of understand why people come to that conclusion, however, that hasn’t really been my experience. Before we started to take this approach, right, an average project would run something like this, you would get a brief from a client, it was often more of a wish list than it was a brief, and it was all a little bit vague and wooly around the edges, but you do your best to kind of understand what it was the client would want. Then you went away and you produced this design based on what the client has told you that they want, then you come back and you present that, well, immediately you’ve got one problem there, and the problem is that there is a good likelihood you’re going to have misinterpreted what they want. Now that’s not because you’re a failure or because you don’t know, it’s because the client hasn’t got a clear idea in their mind of what it is that they want to achieve, not in every case but in a lot of cases, and until they see something they’ve got nothing to react to, you know, this is all new territory, it’s hard for them to picture it in the way that you do. So immediately when you come back with the design they’re going to start saying, yeah, but I want this and I want that, and you’re going to go well I didn’t — you didn’t specify that. So actually a lot of time is wasted at that point of that potential misunderstanding.

保罗：是的。 我可以理解为什么人们得出这样的结论，但是，这并不是我的真正经验。 在我们开始采用这种方法之前，正确的是，一个普通的项目会运行这样的事情，您会从客户那里得到一个简短的摘要，它通常比一个简短的清单更像是一个愿望清单，而且有点模糊和毛茸茸的边缘，但您要尽力了解客户的需求。 然后您走了，然后根据客户告诉您的要求，制作了此设计，然后您回来，然后提出，好吧，您立即遇到一个问题，问题是存在一个很好的解决方案。可能您会误解他们想要的东西。 这不是因为您失败或因为您不知道，而是因为客户在他们心目中并没有清楚要实现的目标，这并不是在每种情况下，而是在很多情况下案例，直到他们看到什么都没React，您知道，这都是新领域，他们很难以您的方式来描述它。 因此，当您返回设计时，他们会立即开始说，是的，但是我想要这个，我想要那个，而您会顺利进行，但我并没有-您没有指定。 因此，在那种潜在的误解上，实际上浪费了很多时间。

Then there’s another aspect which I think wastes a lot of time in the traditional way of working, which is that because the client wants a sense of ownership and wants to feel like they’re involved in the decision making, when you come back with a design at that stage the design is your design, not theirs, they’ve got no sense of ownership. So what they start doing is they start trying to stamp their mark on the design.

再有就是我认为传统工作方式会浪费很多时间，这是因为当您回来时，客户希望拥有主人翁意识，并希望感觉自己参与了决策过程。在那个阶段，设计是您的设计，而不是他们的设计，他们没有主人翁意识。 因此，他们开始做的是开始尝试在设计上标记自己的标记。

Kevin: Right.

凯文：对。

Paul: And that’s where you start getting into iteration cycles which go on and on and on because the client doesn’t really know particularly what they want, they’re not experts in design, and you’re not really guiding the process anymore, they’ve just started coming back with changes. So I think we’re taking a more collaborative approach where you’re showing the design to them every step of the way, you’re showing them sketches, you’re showing them mood boards, you’re showing them wireframes, you’re both educating them but you’re also taking them on that journey with you where they feel that sense of ownership. And a client is much less likely to reject a design that they feel a sense of ownership on, so in most of our projects these days we go from initial inspiration, you know, kind of collection, to mood boards, to wireframes, to final design, maybe some minor tweaking to that final design, and then we’re done. And actually that process is as quick if not quicker than the traditional kind of ta-da! moment, here’s a wonderful design, oh no, we’ve got it completely wrong.

Paul：那就是您开始进入不断重复的迭代周期的原因，因为客户并不特别了解他们想要的东西，他们不是设计专家，并且您也不再真正地指导流程，他们才刚刚开始带来变化。 因此，我认为我们正在采用一种更具协作性的方法，在此过程中，他们向他们展示设计的每一步，向他们展示草图，向他们展示情绪板，向他们展示线框，既要教育他们，又要带他们一起去感受他们的主人翁感。 客户很少会拒绝拥有主人翁感的设计，因此，如今，在我们大多数项目中，我们从最初的灵感(您知道的那种收藏)到情绪板，线框到最终设计，可能需要对最终设计进行一些细微的调整，然后就可以完成了。 实际上，该过程比传统的ta-da更快甚至更快！ 此刻，这是一个很棒的设计，哦，不，我们完全错了。

Also, because you kind of go through that process there’s no need to do multiple designs either, because that wastes a load of time as well.

而且，由于您要经历该过程，因此也无需进行多个设计，因为这也浪费了时间。

Kevin: Yes, it does.

凯文：是的，确实如此。

Paul: Because you only do multiple designs to provide a mechanism by which the client can feel a sense of they get to pick a design, and so all of that goes away as well which saves a lot of time.

保罗：因为您只做多个设计来提供一种机制，使客户可以感觉到他们选择设计的感觉，所以所有这些都消失了，从而节省了大量时间。

Kevin: Yeah. I want to jump back to the design stuff later on and talk about the mood boards, because I think that has a lot to do with the multiple designs, it kind of modulizes that in a way. But I think what you’re saying here, and you’re making a good point, which is that the traditional way of doing it you end up doing these large iterations of multiple designs basically, and that ends up wasting the time that you make up for when you’re working with a client in tandem to create this design, so the agency doesn’t lose any time. However, but, I’m going to pushback on you again here —

凯文：是的。 我想稍后再回到设计主题并讨论情绪板，因为我认为这与多种设计有很大关系，它以某种方式对其进行了调制。 但是我认为您在这里说的是，而且您说的很对，这是传统的执行方式基本上会导致对多个设计进行这些较大的迭代，最终浪费了您的时间当您与客户一道工作以创建此设计时，它可以解决问题，因此代理商不会浪费任何时间。 但是，但是，我将在这里再次向您推销-

Paul: Sure, fair enough. Go for it.

保罗：当然，很公平。 去吧。

Kevin: So I think this is good, that requires more time with a client then, and so while the agency may be saving time, in fact, I totally believe what you’re saying in that it saves agency time, so you’ve bought yourself time but you’ve spent more of the client’s time.

凯文：所以我认为这很好，那需要花更多的时间与客户打交道，因此虽然代理商可以节省时间，但实际上，我完全相信您的意思是，这可以节省代理商的时间，所以您已经花费了自己的时间，但您花费了更多的客户时间。

Paul: Yeah.

保罗：是的。

Kevin: Do clients pushback against that or are they more opted to come in and help you out, because depending on the size of the client you have, if you’re freelance or if it’s a one-man show, or if you’re an agency you may have multiple people involved in the process, and I know we can step into the stakeholder interviews and stuff a little bit later on, but the involvement from the client and the amount of time that that takes, what do you have to say to this?

凯文(Kevin)：客户是否反对这样做，还是他们更愿意进来为您提供帮助，因为取决于您的客户规模，您是自由职业者还是单人演出，或者您是否一个代理机构，您可能需要多个人参与此过程，而且我知道我们稍后可以介入利益相关者访谈并提出一些建议，但是来自客户的参与以及所花费的时间，您需要做什么？对这个说

Paul: Yeah, I mean they do — in the vast majority of cases I think that’s what — I think clients actually want to work this way, they want to be involved, the do want a sense of ownership. For those that don’t I think they need to anyway; sooner or later a client has to invest considerable time in their site, if they don’t the site’s going to die, you know, they’re going to have to write content from it and they’re going to have to keep that content up-to-date, they’re going to have to work on social media stuff, they’re all going to have to engage, a website is not a brochure, it’s not something that can be built and then you can then walk away from. And so the kind of consequence is that because sooner or later they’ve got to do that, I think the sooner you break them in to that mindset of having to invest in the website, and the website being as much theirs as it is yours, I think that’s only a good thing. I can’t say I’ve ever come across a situation where a client has pushed back and has said no I don’t want to be involved, I’m too busy; if they did I’m not quite sure how I would react really, I think I would push them hard to be involved and would say that they do need to make time for it.

保罗：是的，我的意思是他们确实做到了-在大多数情况下，我认为就是那样-我认为客户实际上想以这种方式工作，他们想参与其中，他们确实想要一种主人翁感。 对于那些不需要的人，我认为他们仍然需要。 客户迟早必须在其网站上投入大量时间，如果他们不希望网站消失，他们将不得不从中编写内容，并且必须保留该内容最新消息，他们将不得不处理社交媒体上的内容，他们都必须参与其中，网站不是小册子，不是可以建立的内容，然后您就可以走开从。 所以这样的结果是，因为他们迟早要这么做，所以我认为您越早将他们打造成必须投资该网站的思维方式，该网站与您的网站一样重要。 ，我认为这只是一件好事。 我不能说我曾经遇到过这样一种情况，即客户退缩了，说不，我不想参与其中，我太忙了。 如果他们这样做了，我不太确定我会如何React，我想我会促使他们难以参与其中，并说他们确实需要时间。

Kevin: Right. I think that’s a good response. I do want to get some more of these other questions, so I’m going to abruptly change subjects here, which is we’ve covered the basics of the client centric side of things, but you also take about a partnership of experts in the book, and you say that the client is an expert and you are an expert, and figuring out how to display yourself as an expert is a little bit different than figuring out the expertise that the client has. Can you talk about the two different segments of experts that you talk about in the book, one being the client, one being the designer or the agency.

凯文：对。 我认为这是一个很好的回应。 我确实想再回答一些其他问题，所以我将在这里突然更改主题，这是我们涵盖了以客户为中心的事情的基础，但是您也需要与专家合作本书中，您说客户是专家，而您又是专家，弄清楚如何展示自己为专家与确定客户的专业知识有些不同。 您能否谈谈您在书中讨论的专家的两个不同部分，一个是客户，一个是设计师或代理商。

Paul: Yeah, I mean the first thing to realize is that a client has got expertise. I think we can be very arrogant as web designers, and we live in our little bubble of web stuff, so if somebody doesn’t get the Web therefore they’re thick and stupid. Well, no, sorry, it’s not like that, you know the client is going to have their expertise in their particular field, be that marketing or project management or whatever, and I think we can utilize that as web designers. Also as I’ve said before, they’ve got expertise in their business, and they’ve got expertise in their users, and we need to acknowledge that as well. So a big part of kind of client centric design is checking this negativity towards clients and recognizing that they have value, recognizing that they bring something to the table, and treating them like experts and grownups that we can interact with.

保罗：是的，我的意思是首先要意识到的是客户已经具备了专业知识。 我认为我们作为Web设计师可能会很自大，而且我们生活在我们的Web泡沫之中，因此，如果有人不了解Web，那么他们将变得又笨又笨。 好吧，不，对不起，不是那样，您知道客户将在特定领域拥有自己的专业知识，无论是市场营销，项目管理还是其他任何方面，我认为我们可以将其用作网页设计师。 同样，正如我之前说过的那样，他们在业务上拥有专业知识，并且在用户方面也具有专业知识，我们也必须承认这一点。 因此，以客户为中心的设计的很大一部分是检查对客户的这种否定性，并认识到他们具有价值，认识到他们将某些东西带到了餐桌上，并将他们像我们可以与之互动的专家和大人一样对待。

So it’s easy for us to change our attitude towards the client, well, it’s not necessarily easy but we can do that, what we can’t do is change — we can’t alter the way a client thinks, we can only alter our own behavior and our own attitude. So the thing is, is that not all clients do recognize our expertise, and there is a need for us to establish in the mind of the client that we are the experts and they should trust us. And in the book I go through lots of different approaches to this, you know, I talk about — one thing I talk about is the idea of being an expert by association. And what that is, is if I turn around and say you should listen to me, I’m an expert, you know your immediate reaction to that is who the hell does he think he is, you arrogant little so and so. So it’s quite, you know, it’s not just a matter of saying you’re an expert, but what you can do is you can point to someone like Jacob Neilson or Steve Krug or whoever else and say, hey, that guy’s an expert, this is why he’s an expert, and he says this on the topic. And so you can use other people’s expertise as a way of adding to your own credibility because it shows that you’re knowledgeable, it shows that experts are backing you up in your opinion, it shows that you’re well read, etcetera, etcetera. So expertise by association is one thing.

因此，我们很容易改变对客户的态度，这不一定很容易，但是我们可以做到，我们不能做的就是改变-我们无法改变客户的思维方式，我们只能改变自己的态度。自己的行为和我们自己的态度。 事实是，并非所有客户都认可我们的专业知识，因此我们需要在客户心中确定我们是专家，他们应该信任我们。 在这本书中，我经历了很多不同的处理方式，您知道，我在谈论-我谈论的一件事是通过协会成为专家的想法。 就是说，如果我转身说你应该听我的话，我是专家，你知道你对他的直接React是他认为他是谁，你这么骄傲自大。 因此，您知道，这不仅仅是说您是专家，而是您可以指向Jacob Neilson或Steve Krug之类的人，或者其他人说，嘿，那个人是专家，这就是为什么他是专家，并且他在这个话题上说了这一点。 因此，您可以利用其他人的专业知识来增加自己的信誉，因为它表明您是个有学问的人，它表明专家在支持您的观点，它表明您被很好地阅读，等等。 。 因此，通过协会获得专业知识是一回事。

Another way you can show your expertise is through process and projects, having a very specific process that you take the client through reassures the client that you know what you’re doing, that you have done this before, that you have a system that works, whether that be — you know, whatever your — I mean my system is let’s start with some inspiration, let’s work on some mood boards, let’s do some wire framing, let’s do some stakeholder interviews, etcetera, this plethora of tools that are available to me that I can use. And those give the client confidence as well as helping get the result that we need to from the website, and that gives them confidence that you are the expert and you know what you’re talking about. So that’s another tool that you can use.

展示您的专业知识的另一种方法是通过流程和项目，有一个非常具体的流程来引导客户，以确保客户知道自己在做什么，之前已经做过，拥有一个可以正常工作的系统，无论那是-您知道，无论您是什么-我的意思是说我的系统让我们从一些灵感开始，让我们在一些情绪板上进行工作，让我们进行一些网络构架，让我们进行一些利益相关者访谈等，等等，这些可用的工具种类繁多对我来说我可以使用。 这些使客户信心十足，并有助于从网站上获得我们所需的结果，这使他们确信您是专家，并且知道您在说什么。 这是您可以使用的另一个工具。

So there are lots of different ways of kind of establishing your own expertise, and I think that’s massively, you know, is a really important part of it, because the client’s got to believe in you and believe in your abilities.

因此，有很多不同的方式来建立您自己的专业知识，我认为这是其中非常重要的一部分，因为客户必须相信您并相信您的能力。

Kevin: Right. I think you’re spot-on about the process and giving that to the client, because it gives them something tangible to kind of take a hold of. In the past experiences I’ve had I know that has been the key factor that’s helped me win work and that kind of thing, where it’s been, okay, you know your stuff, show me how it’s going to work for me, and I think the process that you’re talking about is that piece that they get to touch and feel and breathe-in and experience.

凯文：对。 我认为您对流程完全了解，并将其提供给客户，因为它使他们可以切实掌握一些东西。 在过去的经历中，我知道这是帮助我赢得工作的关键因素，而这种事情发生的地方，好吧，您知道您的东西，向我展示它如何为我工作。认为您正在谈论的过程就是他们接触，感受，呼吸和体验的那一部分。

Paul: And then also of course there’s referring back to old projects, you know, if the client’s worried about a particular decision that you’ve made on the design you can say, well, I took a similar approach on this project and it worked very well, and da-da-da-da, so, again, you’re referring back to that body of work behind you.

保罗：当然，这里也提到了旧项目，如果客户担心您对设计做出的特定决定，您可以说，嗯，我对此项目采取了类似的方法，并且它起作用了很好，而且是da-da-da-da，因此，您再次指的是身后的工作。

Kevin: Right. Okay, so another abrupt segue.

凯文：对。 好吧，另一个突然的话题。

Paul: That’ fine.

保罗：很好。

Kevin: I’m good at those. But I said that we’d come back to the design side of things.

凯文：我擅长那些。 但是我说过，我们将回到设计的方面。

Paul: Yeah.

保罗：是的。

Kevin: And I don’t want to leave this part out because I think it’s super important, mostly because I believe the listeners of the show are probably going to fall more into this category on a broader scale. And so the person that’s coming in and they’re saying, okay, I’m going to try this client centric web design thing, and you talked about this design process of mood boards and these kinds of things, and that kind of goes into the expertise side of things as well. What would you say to somebody about the dealing with design on that side of things? You talk about in the book that pride becomes before the fall and the danger of limiting iterations, that kind of stuff, so where does the design, the dealing with the design, fall into client centric web design?

凯文：我不想忽略这部分，因为我认为这很重要，主要是因为我相信该节目的听众可能会更广泛地属于这一类。 所以有人进来，他们说，好吧，我将尝试这种以客户为中心的网页设计，而您谈到了情绪板的设计过程以及此类事情，并且涉及到事物的专业知识方面也是如此。 您会对某方面的设计说什么？ 您在书中谈到自豪感在下降之前就已经存在，并且存在限制迭代的危险，诸如此类的东西，那么设计，处理设计在哪里落入以客户为中心的Web设计中？

Paul: Yeah. I mean design is always the hardest area, and it’s the most likely to I think cause conflict because, you know, design is such a subjective subject I think, even we see design in very different ways, and so I think having a process is a big part of that, you know, I think that provides a lot of reassurance, I think you need lots of communication, you need to talk the client through the fact that design is a very subjective process, and that it cause conflict and disagreement. And one of the things that I’m a great fan of, and something that Andy Clark said to me only earlier today is that if a client comes back with a comment on design, say that’s great, I can see where you’re coming from and I can see your opinion, but do you have actually any evidence to back that up or is it literally just your personal opinion. So it’s kind of highlighting to the client what’s personal opinion and what’s, you know, what’s actually tangible fact, if that makes sense.

保罗：是的。 我的意思是，设计始终是最困难的领域，也是我认为最容易引起冲突的领域，因为，我认为设计是一个主观的主题，即使我们以不同的方式看待设计，所以我认为制定流程是其中很大一部分，您知道，我认为这可以提供很多保证，我认为您需要大量的沟通，需要与客户进行交流，即设计是一个非常主观的过程，并且会引起冲突和分歧。 我非常喜欢的一件事，也是Andy Clark在今天早些时候才对我说的一件事，就是如果客户回来对设计发表评论，那说的很棒，我可以看到你要去哪里从，我可以看到您的观点，但是您实际上有任何证据可以证明这一点吗，或者实际上只是您的个人观点。 因此，这是在向客户强调什么个人意见，什么是真正的实际事实(如果有的话)。

Another big part of it is clearly defining whose role it is to do what, because many clients kind of lack experience of web projects, they might be a bit unclear about what’s required from them, and I think this often leads to them suggesting design solutions rather than identifying problems; you don’t want a client coming back to you and say “make it blue.” What you would prefer to hear from a client is “I’m worried about the color scheme because you’ve done the design pink and it’s aimed at kind of middle age men, and we don’t necessarily feel that that color scheme is right.” And if you understand what the problem is rather than just being given a solution, then you could go back and say, well, yes I know it’s pink but I don’t feel necessarily the answer is to make it blue, why don’t we put — I don’t know, what do middle age men like, pipes and slippers on it, you know. So it’s a matter of kind of educating the client that their job is to suggest problems and not necessarily to provide you with the solutions, and for you to come up with the solutions.

它的另一个重要部分是清楚地定义执行任务的角色，因为许多客户缺乏Web项目的经验，他们可能不清楚他们的要求，我认为这经常导致他们提出设计解决方案的建议而不是发现问题； 您不希望客户再来找您说“让它变蓝”。 您希望从客户那里听到的是：“我担心配色方案，因为您已经将设计粉红色，并且它针对的是中年男性，我们不一定认为配色方案是正确的。 。” 而且，如果您了解问题所在，而不仅仅是获得解决方案，那么您可以回过头来说，好吧，是的，我知道它是粉红色的，但我认为答案不一定是使其变成蓝色，为什么不我们穿上了–我不知道，中年男人喜欢什么样的衣服，上面放着烟斗和拖鞋。 因此，教育客户是他们的工作，他们的工作是提出问题，而不一定是为您提供解决方案，而是为您提供解决方案。

Also I think another big part of getting designer privilege is to educate the client, so it’s about how you present the design to the client, you know, you show them a little and often throughout the process, there’s no big surprises, and you can talk them through the mood boards and the wireframes and all the rest of it. And even when we present final designs, you know, we present our final design as a video so that they can see the design but they’re hearing all the background and all the thought process behind it as we talk over the design, and we talk through how the design has been informed by the mood boards and by the research that we did and by the wireframe so that they’re being educated through the process as well. So I think those are all things that really make a big difference, but you’re right, I mean the other one you mentioned was pride, and I think as web designers we are kind of rightly proud of what we do, because we are experienced at building user interfaces, and the client is not. But we often become kind of very protective and get very easily hurt when the client makes even the smallest suggestion about the website. But actually a non-designer is capable of making a good suggestion about a design, they’re not going to be as well informed about you, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t suggest something that’s good.

另外，我认为获得设计者特权的另一个重要方面是教育客户，所以这是关于如何向客户展示设计的过程，您知道，在整个过程中经常向他们展示一些东西，没有什么大的惊喜，您可以通过情绪板和线框以及所有其他内容与他们交谈。 而且，即使我们展示最终设计，您也知道，我们也会以视频形式展示我们的最终设计，以便他们可以看到设计，但是当我们讨论设计时，他们会听到所有背景和背后的所有思考过程，讨论通过情绪板，我们所做的研究以及线框如何告知设计，以便他们也可以在整个过程中得到教育。 因此，我认为所有这些都确实带来了很大的不同，但是您是对的，我是说您提到的另一件事是骄傲，我认为作为网页设计师，我们为自己的工作感到自豪，因为我们在构建用户界面方面经验丰富，而客户端则没有。 但是，当客户提出关于网站的最小建议时，我们通常会变得非常保护并且容易受到伤害。 但是实际上，非设计师可以对设计提出好的建议，他们对您的了解不会那么好，但这并不意味着他们不能提出好的建议。

Kevin: Right.

凯文：对。

Paul: You know, and I think it’s really important that we stand back a little bit from our design and don’t allow our egos to get bruised, and don’t allow our kind of relationship with the client to become confrontational. We need to rely on our thinking, you know, we don’t just produce websites to look great in our portfolio or to impress our peers or even to impress users, we need to recognize that our job satisfaction should become for producing design that the client loves and not just design that we personally love. So I think putting aside our pride is a big part of the process

保罗：您知道，我认为我们必须从设计中退缩一点，不要让自己的自负受挫，也不要让我们与客户之间的关系变得对抗，这很重要。 我们需要依靠我们的思维，您知道，我们不仅要制作出在我们的投资组合中看起来不错的网站，或者要打动我们的同行甚至给用户留下深刻的印象，我们还需要认识到，我们的工作满意度应该成为设计出客户喜欢并且不仅仅是我们个人喜欢的设计。 所以我认为抛开我们的自豪感是整个过程的重要组成部分

Kevin: Yeah. When you talk about educating the client, and educating them on what good design practices are, patterns, all this stuff, I feel like there may go on a little bit of patronizing or belittling of the client and their ability to comprehend what you’re talking about. And so how do you prevent what you’re saying to them coming off in that way? Basically how do you go about communicating to a client so they could understand the goals that you’re setting in place not only from a user perspective but from their perspective now, right, because this is client centric web design we’re talking about.

凯文：是的。 当您谈论教育客户，并向他们介绍什么是好的设计实践，模式以及所有这些东西时，我觉得那里可能会继续有点光顾或贬低客户以及他们理解您所要具备的能力在谈论。 那么，如何防止您对他们说的话那样呢？ 基本上，您如何与客户沟通，以便他们不仅可以从用户角度而且现在从他们的角度了解您设定的目标，对，因为这是我们正在谈论的以客户为中心的Web设计。

Paul: Yeah. I mean I think that’s where the collaboration really comes in. If you’re working side-by-side producing sketches for wireframes, if you’re looking through different websites and discussing color palettes and typography and all these things with a client, then they’re kind of being educated without you directly educating them, if that makes sense, they’re kind of learning on the job. It’s not a matter of you need to say, well, you need to understand this about color theory, it’s more the fact that you’re kind of playing around with color palettes and you’re saying well I’m not really sure that works because those two colors clash, check out this thing about colors that go together and don’t, and it’s much more of a kind of friendly collaborative working on it together approach rather than I’m going to sit and educate you now.

保罗：是的。 我的意思是，我认为这才是真正进行协作的地方。如果您正在并排制作线框草图，或者正在浏览不同的网站并与客户讨论调色板和版式以及所有这些内容，那么他们是在没有您直接对其进行教育的情况下接受教育的，如果这是有意义的，则它们是在工作中的学习。 不用说，是的，您需要了解有关颜色理论的问题，更多的是，您有点喜欢使用调色板，而且您说的是好事，我不确定是否真的能奏效因为这两种颜色发生冲突，请检查一下这些颜色可以混在一起的方法，而这不是一种简单的友好协作方式，而是我现在要坐下来教育您。

In terms of the videos where you’re kind of — you’re presenting the design, the education that’s happening there it’s not really education, it’s more reminding the client what you’ve already done, you know, it’s lots of okay we’ve done this on the design because we did this in the mood boards, and you remember we agreed on that in the mood board and, yeah, that was the way we thought we should go where you can see how I’ve reflected that here. So it’s more kind of reminding the client there of the process that you’ve already been through.

就您所处的视频而言，您正在展示设计，正在那里进行的教育不是真正的教育，更是提醒客户您已经做过的事情，您知道，我们可以很多我在设计上做了这个，因为我们是在情绪板上做的，并且您还记得我们在情绪板上达成的共识，是的，这就是我们认为应该去的地方，您可以在这里看到我的看法。 。 因此，它更像是提醒客户那里您已经经历的过程。

And the other way I think of kind of educating them is questioning a lot, so instead of saying, you know, taking the kind of attitude of, oh, don’t be so silly, that’s a ridiculous idea and here’s ten reasons why, I think it’s better to say, you know, to go to the client, let’s say the client suggests something outrageously stupid, I don’t know, they want a flaming logo on their website.

我想对他们进行教育的另一种方式是质疑很多，所以与其说，不要以这种态度，而是不要愚蠢，这是一个荒谬的想法，这是十个原因，我认为最好是说，去拜访客户，比方说客户建议一些愚蠢的东西，我不知道，他们想要网站上有醒目的徽标。

Kevin: Right.

凯文：对。

Paul: At first when you go back say why do you want this logo, explain it a little bit more, you know, let’s kind of bat around some ideas, so they then talk about some of their thinking behind it, and then just ask questions about it. Say things like, well, how are we going to deal with that if we have that, how are we going to deal with that distracting people from the content, right. So what you’re doing there is you’re getting them to think through what they’re doing and suggesting some potential issues that might need solving, so eventually they come to the conclusion that their idea wasn’t the best idea after all. So it’s kind of leading them to the solutions rather than just bombarding them with this is why you’re stupid.

保罗：首先，当您回头说出为什么要使用此徽标时，请多解释一下，您知道，让我们来讨论一下一些想法，然后他们谈论其背后的一些想法，然后问一下问题。 说，好吧，如果有的话，我们将如何处理，如何处理分散人们注意力的内容，对。 因此，您在这里所做的就是让他们思考他们在做什么，并提出一些可能需要解决的潜在问题，因此最终他们得出结论，认为他们的想法毕竟不是最好的想法。 因此，这是带领他们寻求解决方案的方法，而不是仅仅以此来轰炸它们，这就是为什么您很愚蠢。

Kevin: Right. Briefly could you touch on another side of this, what you talked about being the yes man.

凯文：对。 简要地说，您能否谈谈这件事的另一面，即您所说的是的。

Paul: (Laughs)

保罗：(笑)

Kevin: And I’ve actually put this into practice and it does work. So explain a little bit about the yes man concept that you talk about.

凯文：我实际上已经将其付诸实践，并且确实有效。 因此，请稍微解释一下您所说的“是的人”概念。

Paul: Yeah. I mean that’s really what — I’ve kind of touched on it already really. The yes man concept is simple: you should never say no to your client, right, every time I ever say that they’re just, oh, God, you’ve got to be joking; you’ve got to say no to them, they suggest such stupid things. But it’s the principle that says yeah! — the client’s come up with an idea, the last thing you should do is crush them, right, you know, you should encourage them, so even if they come up with a stupid idea say, oh, you know, yeah — it’s hard to word it in a generic way, but that’s great, thanks for the idea, I really appreciate the idea, wonderful, but let’s talk through that idea; is that really going to work? What issues are there that might come up, what problems might arise? And, again, it’s this principle of getting the client to think through the issues, and getting to them where they’re saying no about their own ideas rather than you saying no. And that’s the key, yeah, that does take more of a conversation, but, as soon as you say no to a client there’s nowhere for that conversation to go, right. The only way it can end is the client backing down or it turning it into a fight, right.

保罗：是的。 我的意思是真的—我已经确实涉及到它了。 是的人的概念很简单：永远不要对客户说不，对，每次我说他们只是，哦，天哪，你一定在开玩笑。 你必须对他们说不，他们建议这样愚蠢的事情。 但这就是原则！ -客户提出一个主意，您最后要做的就是压倒他们，对，您知道，您应该鼓励他们，所以即使他们提出一个愚蠢的主意，也要说，哦，您知道，是的-很难用一种通用的方式来表达它，但这太好了，谢谢这个主意，我真的很感谢这个主意，很棒，但是让我们谈谈这个主意； 真的有用吗？ 那里会出现什么问题，会出现什么问题？ 再说一遍，这是让客户思考问题，并向他们提出他们对自己的想法不说而不是您不说的想法。 是的，是的，这确实需要更多的对话，但是，一旦您对客户说不，那对话就无处可去了。 它结束的唯一方法是客户退缩，或者将其变成一场战斗。

Kevin: Right.

凯文：对。

Paul: And most of the time once people express an opinion about something and it turns into a confrontation, even if we have been — let’s be honest with ourselves, even if we have been convinced that we are wrong we still dig in our heels, don’t we, because we stated a position and we want to remain consistent with that. So the last thing you want to do is create a confrontational environment, so a ‘no’ only ever ends in confrontation, so instead get the client to think it through and get them to come to that point where they reject the design themselves, or their suggestion themselves.

保罗：而且大多数时候，一旦人们对某事发表意见并变成对抗，即使我们曾经如此-坦白地说，即使我们一直坚信自己错了，我们仍然会挖苦自己，我们不是，因为我们说了一个立场，我们想保持一致。 因此，您要做的最后一件事是创建一个对抗性环境，这样一个“否”只会在对抗中结束，因此要让客户考虑清楚并让他们到达他们自己拒绝设计的地步，或者他们自己的建议。

Kevin: Right. So I wish we had more time to talk about this, it’s such a good topic.

凯文：对。 所以我希望我们有更多的时间来谈论这个，这是一个很好的话题。

Paul: It’s always the way!

保罗：总是这样！

Kevin: (Laughs) but I want to jump into the application side of this.

凯文：(笑)，但我想跳到这个应用程序方面。

Paul: Yes.

保罗：是的。

Kevin: What can someone do today to start using client centric web design, because you’ve sold me on it; I don’t know that you’ve titled it this until recently, but I’ve listened to your podcast for at least two or three years now, and it’s kind of become your song in that clients aren’t the enemy. So how can somebody go about implementing this Client Centric Web Design approach?

凯文：今天有人可以做些什么来开始使用以客户为中心的网页设计，因为您已经把我卖了。 我不知道您最近才给它加标题，但我至少已经听了两年或三年的播客了，因为客户不是敌人，所以这成为您的歌曲。 那么，有人如何实现这种以客户为中心的Web设计方法呢？

Paul: To be honest I think the biggest part of it is your own attitude. This is different from let’s say a new CSS technique or, you know, most of the stuff that people write about, most of the time when people write books it’s here’s a list of a, b, c, d that you have to do and you end up with this result. Client Centric Web Design is not like that, it’s about a state of mind — wow, that sounds so pretentious.

保罗：说实话，我认为其中最大的部分就是你自己的态度。 这不同于我们说一种新CSS技术，或者，您知道人们写的大多数东西，大多数时候人们写书时，这里是您必须要做的a，b，c，d列表，你最终得到这个结果。 以客户为中心的Web设计并不是那样，它只是一种心态-哇，听起来很自命不凡。

Kevin: (Laughs)

凯文：(笑)

Paul: But it’s making a decision that you’re going to treat the client as the center of your job. It’s about, as I said earlier, deciding you’re going to build your job satisfaction on sending clients away happy rather than you thinking your job is just about building websites. Once you decide that you provide a service and that you should have a service mentality, that changes everything, it changes your whole approach to websites. And I think that is the main thing that people need to do is starting out in this process is really set aside — set aside their prejudices, almost, towards clients and make a decision that you’re going to work collaboratively alongside clients. Once you’ve done that I think in terms of practicality it’s about how you work alongside clients, I think it’s sitting down and looking at the process that you go through to create a website, and identifying as many points along that process as you can engage the client with, right.

Paul: But it's making a decision that you're going to treat the client as the center of your job. It's about, as I said earlier, deciding you're going to build your job satisfaction on sending clients away happy rather than you thinking your job is just about building websites. Once you decide that you provide a service and that you should have a service mentality, that changes everything, it changes your whole approach to websites. And I think that is the main thing that people need to do is starting out in this process is really set aside — set aside their prejudices, almost, towards clients and make a decision that you're going to work collaboratively alongside clients. Once you've done that I think in terms of practicality it's about how you work alongside clients, I think it's sitting down and looking at the process that you go through to create a website, and identifying as many points along that process as you can engage the client with, right.

So I’ve already talked about, you know, if we just look at my design process that I normally start — once I’ve got the brief and I understand what I’ve got to do, the first thing I start doing is looking around at other websites or bits of architecture or print design, or whatever else, just to get inspired, right. So instead of keeping that inspiration to myself I now show it to the client, right, and that starts off a conversation, and maybe the client finds some stuff that inspires them and they like and they contribute that into the mix. Then once I’ve got that I go into my mood board phase where I kind of collect together different parts of the inspiration and start thinking about typography and color and imagery and all of that kind of stuff. And that’s where I start to explore ideas, but I do that with the client, I show them mood boards, I iterate mood boards, because producing a mood board only takes a few minutes rather than a few hours like a design comp does. So you can show and through lots of them and try different approaches, and show them to the client and say here’s a really conservative design and here’s a really kind of over-the-top hippie design, and just explore different areas and include the client there.

So I've already talked about, you know, if we just look at my design process that I normally start — once I've got the brief and I understand what I've got to do, the first thing I start doing is looking around at other websites or bits of architecture or print design, or whatever else, just to get inspired, right. So instead of keeping that inspiration to myself I now show it to the client, right, and that starts off a conversation, and maybe the client finds some stuff that inspires them and they like and they contribute that into the mix. Then once I've got that I go into my mood board phase where I kind of collect together different parts of the inspiration and start thinking about typography and color and imagery and all of that kind of stuff. And that's where I start to explore ideas, but I do that with the client, I show them mood boards, I iterate mood boards, because producing a mood board only takes a few minutes rather than a few hours like a design comp does. So you can show and through lots of them and try different approaches, and show them to the client and say here's a really conservative design and here's a really kind of over-the-top hippie design, and just explore different areas and include the client there.

And then of course there’s the wire framing; instead of you starting to sketch out and think about the wire framing, sit down with the client and get them drawing some boxes, and get them saying well okay what do you think the homepage should look like? you know, ask them what element should be on it, how they would prioritize those elements and how they would organize them, you know, let’s try wire framing this website as if it was mainly focused around news and events, alright now let’s try wire framing it as if it’s focused around the ecommerce elements, or let’s try wire framing it if we were just aiming at this audience or that audience, and just sketch, sketches that take seconds to do and then discuss those and include them. And, again, with the design and as much as possible include the client in the process is the key really.

And then of course there's the wire framing; instead of you starting to sketch out and think about the wire framing, sit down with the client and get them drawing some boxes, and get them saying well okay what do you think the homepage should look like? you know, ask them what element should be on it, how they would prioritize those elements and how they would organize them, you know, let's try wire framing this website as if it was mainly focused around news and events, alright now let's try wire framing it as if it's focused around the ecommerce elements, or let's try wire framing it if we were just aiming at this audience or that audience, and just sketch, sketches that take seconds to do and then discuss those and include them. And, again, with the design and as much as possible include the client in the process is the key really.

Kevin: Right. Now what about the situation, which I think is fairly common in the agency world, which is where the agency wants to keep the designer in a cubicle and have them just pump out these designs. How can someone in that position where they don’t really get to get in front of the client and talk to them, or that’s mostly done by project managers and sales people, how can you get this approach into that place where you’re working?

凯文：对。 Now what about the situation, which I think is fairly common in the agency world, which is where the agency wants to keep the designer in a cubicle and have them just pump out these designs. How can someone in that position where they don't really get to get in front of the client and talk to them, or that's mostly done by project managers and sales people, how can you get this approach into that place where you're working?

Paul: Hmm, that is difficult.

Paul: Hmm, that is difficult.

Kevin: That’s a tough nut to crack.

Kevin: That's a tough nut to crack.

Paul: Because you’re trying to instigate a cultural change there. You know I could give the flippant answer and tell them buy a copy of the book and then give it to their boss.

Paul: Because you're trying to instigate a cultural change there. You know I could give the flippant answer and tell them buy a copy of the book and then give it to their boss.

Kevin: (Laughs) right answer.

Kevin: (Laughs) right answer.

Paul: I always present stuff, right; whenever I’m trying to convince anybody of anything what you’ve got to do is talk about it in terms of the benefit that it provides them rather than you, right. A project manager, if you turn around to a project manager and say I want to be speaking to the client, that’s immediately going to ring bells in the project manager’s mind of I’m going to lose control of the project, I’m not going to know what’s going on, da-da-da-da, and you saying but it’ll really help the design process ain’t gonna mean anything to the project manager, you know; that it helps you doesn’t matter, it’s got to help them. So in that situation you’ve got to package the message as a benefit to them, that it’ll mean that they will have to do less kind of middle man between the two of you, that you’ll be more proactive, that there will be less misunderstandings, you know, that work can be turned around quicker and the client feels more engaged and will be happier, etcetera, etcetera. So you put it in benefits that will make their life easier. And then at the same time you’ve got to think of it from their perspective and what problems they might have with it and address those problems. So, for example, they feel that they’re going to be out of control, that they’re not going to know everything that’s going on, well say to them, look, if I even have a conversation with the client afterwards I will confirm everything that was said to you via email so you have a written record of that conversation, or, you know if you want to be involved in every phone call that I have with the client that’s absolutely fine as well. So you kind of address their needs and their fears, it’s the only way you can really do it I think.

Paul: I always present stuff, right; whenever I'm trying to convince anybody of anything what you've got to do is talk about it in terms of the benefit that it provides them rather than you, right. A project manager, if you turn around to a project manager and say I want to be speaking to the client, that's immediately going to ring bells in the project manager's mind of I'm going to lose control of the project, I'm not going to know what's going on, da-da-da-da, and you saying but it'll really help the design process ain't gonna mean anything to the project manager, you know; that it helps you doesn't matter, it's got to help them. So in that situation you've got to package the message as a benefit to them, that it'll mean that they will have to do less kind of middle man between the two of you, that you'll be more proactive, that there will be less misunderstandings, you know, that work can be turned around quicker and the client feels more engaged and will be happier, etcetera, etcetera. So you put it in benefits that will make their life easier. And then at the same time you've got to think of it from their perspective and what problems they might have with it and address those problems. So, for example, they feel that they're going to be out of control, that they're not going to know everything that's going on, well say to them, look, if I even have a conversation with the client afterwards I will confirm everything that was said to you via email so you have a written record of that conversation, or, you know if you want to be involved in every phone call that I have with the client that's absolutely fine as well. So you kind of address their needs and their fears, it's the only way you can really do it I think.

Kevin: Yeah, I think that’s an excellent answer, Paul. You know at the end of the day it really comes to communicating with anybody, clients, project manager, you have to communicate.

Kevin: Yeah, I think that's an excellent answer, Paul. You know at the end of the day it really comes to communicating with anybody, clients, project manager, you have to communicate.

Paul: And I think that’s what we’re so bad at as web designers, and let’s realize, let’s make a huge, sweeping generalization here, but you know I do think as a sector we have a disproportionate number of people that are on the autistic spectrum, you know, we’re computer people, we’re not people people. But we work in a client service industry so we need to learn how to be people people, we need to learn — and it’s funny isn’t it, because on one hand we pride ourselves on our ability to get inside of the head of users, don’t we, to empathize with them, to imagine what they’re doing on the website and what problems they’re going to encounter, and we care, we put a lot of energy into doing that. But we need to put that same energy into what makes our clients tick, what makes our project manager tick, you know, what do they care about? One of the things I mentioned in the book is find out when you’re talking to say a stakeholder, if there’s a problematic person within the company, find out what is the one thing they really care about, and then any argument or anything you present to them build it around that; if they care about recruitment, for example, when you present the design make a point of saying how it can benefit recruitment, you know, you’ve got to find out what makes people tick, and we’ve got to put that same effort into doing that with clients and our colleagues as we do into our users.

Paul: And I think that's what we're so bad at as web designers, and let's realize, let's make a huge, sweeping generalization here, but you know I do think as a sector we have a disproportionate number of people that are on the autistic spectrum, you know, we're computer people, we're not people people. But we work in a client service industry so we need to learn how to be people people, we need to learn — and it's funny isn't it, because on one hand we pride ourselves on our ability to get inside of the head of users, don't we, to empathize with them, to imagine what they're doing on the website and what problems they're going to encounter, and we care, we put a lot of energy into doing that. But we need to put that same energy into what makes our clients tick, what makes our project manager tick, you know, what do they care about? One of the things I mentioned in the book is find out when you're talking to say a stakeholder, if there's a problematic person within the company, find out what is the one thing they really care about, and then any argument or anything you present to them build it around that; if they care about recruitment, for example, when you present the design make a point of saying how it can benefit recruitment, you know, you've got to find out what makes people tick, and we've got to put that same effort into doing that with clients and our colleagues as we do into our users.

Kevin: Right. Yeah, I guess the thing is you can’t be passive about your approach, you have to be proactive, a self-starter in a way.

凯文：对。 Yeah, I guess the thing is you can't be passive about your approach, you have to be proactive, a self-starter in a way.

Paul: Yeah.

保罗：是的。

Kevin: So, Paul, unfortunately we’re out of time.

Kevin: So, Paul, unfortunately we're out of time.

Paul: Yeah, absolutely, I do talk a lot, I apologize.

Paul: Yeah, absolutely, I do talk a lot, I apologize.

Kevin: No, no, but it’s good information. I think this is something that needs to be talked about more in the community of web design, specifically when it relates to client work, but also I think it relates to also when you’re dealing with your own projects and your own needs, right; if I’m creating an application I need to use this approach as well because at the end of the day it’s an app, and so the app is kind of like my client, and I need to present the information that the users want to the users, but also at the same time put those behind the needs of the app, because at the end of the day the app or the client or whoever it may be, it’s ultimately their thing and the thing that they’re trying to sell, so it’s their goals above user goals in a way, correct?

Kevin: No, no, but it's good information. I think this is something that needs to be talked about more in the community of web design, specifically when it relates to client work, but also I think it relates to also when you're dealing with your own projects and your own needs, right; if I'm creating an application I need to use this approach as well because at the end of the day it's an app, and so the app is kind of like my client, and I need to present the information that the users want to the users, but also at the same time put those behind the needs of the app, because at the end of the day the app or the client or whoever it may be, it's ultimately their thing and the thing that they're trying to sell, so it's their goals above user goals in a way, correct?

Paul: Yeah. I mean absolutely. I mean with an app, I mean depending on why you’ve created the app, if you’ve just created it for a bit of fun then sure put the users first, but if you’ve created that app to earn money or you’ve got business objectives for that app then they need to be first, they need to — everything needs to hand off of that.

保罗：是的。 I mean absolutely. I mean with an app, I mean depending on why you've created the app, if you've just created it for a bit of fun then sure put the users first, but if you've created that app to earn money or you've got business objectives for that app then they need to be first, they need to — everything needs to hand off of that.

Kevin: Well, Paul, where can people find you and the book, where can they find more information if they want to know more about this Client Centric Web Design thing?

Kevin: Well, Paul, where can people find you and the book, where can they find more information if they want to know more about this Client Centric Web Design thing?

Paul: Sure. I mean there’s — basically the best place to go is Boagworld.com/season/3, and what that will get you is the podcast for this season that’s coming out, I don’t know when this podcast is being released, but we’re doing Season 3 of the Boagworld Show in April, April 11th it kicks off, so you can go to that URL, you’ll be able to get to all the episodes as they come out, all of that’s completely free. If you want to buy the eBook as well, which obviously goes into more depth, you can get to that from that page as well. But from my point of view it’s really about getting this message out and getting people to rethink how they’re running their businesses, because I’m certainly not going to get rich from selling eBooks, that’s for sure (laughter).

Paul: Sure. I mean there's — basically the best place to go is Boagworld.com/season/3 , and what that will get you is the podcast for this season that's coming out, I don't know when this podcast is being released, but we're doing Season 3 of the Boagworld Show in April, April 11th it kicks off, so you can go to that URL, you'll be able to get to all the episodes as they come out, all of that's completely free. If you want to buy the eBook as well, which obviously goes into more depth, you can get to that from that page as well. But from my point of view it's really about getting this message out and getting people to rethink how they're running their businesses, because I'm certainly not going to get rich from selling eBooks, that's for sure (laughter).

Kevin: Well, perhaps one day you will.

Kevin: Well, perhaps one day you will.

Paul: One can only hope.

Paul: One can only hope.

Kevin: Wouldn’t that be nice. Well, Paul, thank you again, and do you have Twitter?

Kevin: Wouldn't that be nice. Well, Paul, thank you again, and do you have Twitter?

Paul: I am, yes, I’m on Twitter @boagworld, so you can check me out there as well.

Paul: I am, yes, I'm on Twitter @boagworld , so you can check me out there as well.

Kevin: Awesome. Well, Paul, thank you so much for coming on, I very much enjoyed our chat, and hopefully folks can start taking some of these things away and implementing them in their current workflow.

凯文：太棒了。 Well, Paul, thank you so much for coming on, I very much enjoyed our chat, and hopefully folks can start taking some of these things away and implementing them in their current workflow.

Paul: Yep, thank you.

Paul: Yep, thank you.

Kevin: Alright, take it easy.

Kevin: Alright, take it easy.

And thanks for listening to the SitePoint Podcast. If you have any questions or thoughts about today’s show please feel free to get in touch. You can find SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, that’s sitepoint d-o-t-c-o-m. You can find me on Twitter @kevindees, and if you’d like to leave comments about today’s show check out the podcast at sitepoint.com/podcast, you can subscribe to the show there as well. This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad, and I’m Kevin Dees, bye for now.

感谢您收听SitePoint播客。 如果您对今天的演出有任何疑问或想法，请随时与我们联系。 您可以在Twitter @sitepointdotcom上找到SitePoint，即Sitepoint dotcom。 您可以在Twitter @kevindees上找到我，如果您想对今天的节目发表评论，请访问sitepoint.com/podcast上的播客，也可以在此处订阅该节目。 SitePoint播客的这一集由Karn Broad制作，我是Kevin Dees，再见。

Theme music by Mike Mella.

Mike Mella的主题音乐。

Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.

谢谢收听！ 欢迎使用下面的评论字段让我们知道我们的状况，或者继续讨论。

翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-157-client-centric-web-design-with-paul-boag/