时间
2004年3月11日（周四）上午9:30-11:30
演讲人
Scott W. Ambler，对象技术和敏捷方法专家。他是Ronin International的总裁，该公司是一家专门提供面向对象过程指导、体系结构建模和 Enterprise JavaBean (EJB)开发的咨询公司。Scott W. Ambler著有多本对象技术畅销书。
Scott W. Ambler学习武术，有刚柔流空手道（徒手）的黑带和Kobudo（器械）的绿带，此外还学习太极拳和瑜伽。他酷爱风景和野生摄影以及国际旅行。
声音记录
网盘下载(87M)：https://pan.baidu.com/share/link?shareid=72876&uk=1795750932
UMLChina早期的很多专家讲座是通过越洋电话举行，所以音质和后来的讲座相比稍差。
幻灯片
My Latest Thoughts，下载：http://umlchina.com/chat/slide/AmblerMyLatestThoughts.ppt
聊天记录
(09:03:00)tuff604与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:I can't hear anything. :(
(09:04:21)caihailin与所有人说:hello
(09:05:17)*wrest与所有人说:wait a meoment
(09:06:35)*wrest与所有人说:why no voice
(09:06:39)*MichaelVizdos与所有人说:大家好
(09:06:52)[*umlchina_seminar]与*MichaelVizdos说:Have you install the voice plug-in?
(09:07:41)tuff604与所有人说:no voice
(09:07:45)[*umlchina_seminar]与*MichaelVizdos说:MichaelVizdo是Scott ambler的公司ronin-intl的副总裁
(09:10:55)tuff604与所有人说:still can't hear voice
(09:11:08)*wrest与所有人说:yes, sure
(09:11:37)*UpbeatJason与所有人说:hello, every one
(09:15:13)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:hello
(09:15:24)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:guess we're all early
(09:16:08)*UpbeatJason与所有人说:i think so ^_^
(09:19:02)michael与所有人说:hello,everybody
(09:19:07)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:ok
(09:19:50)*wrest与所有人说:can anyone hear the voice?
(09:19:56)*UpbeatJason与所有人说:i can
(09:20:14)*wrest与所有人说:it's fine now
(09:20:45)tuff604与所有人说:ok
(09:20:48)*ruanweifeng与所有人说:ok
(09:20:50)*UpbeatJason与所有人说:ok
(09:20:50)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:Yes I can hear
(09:21:21)tuff604与所有人说:yes, I got the ppt
(09:21:30)*MichaelVizdos与所有人说:大家好
(09:21:41)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:ok good
(09:21:44)tuff604与所有人说:ten minutes is ok
(09:21:47)tuff604与所有人说:for me
(09:22:12)tuff604与所有人说:keeping , I like to hear u are there.
(09:22:56)[*umlchina_seminar]与*ScottAmbler说:we can hear you clear
(09:26:08)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:can you hear me still?
(09:26:12)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:yes
(09:26:16)michael与所有人说:yes
(09:26:27)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:大家可以先问几个问题
(09:26:28)*chehy与[*umlchina_seminar]说:Is there any relationship between AM and UML?
(09:26:44)*zhobin与所有人说:为什么听不到声音
(09:27:29)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:Nice to hear your voice :) and welcome to China
(09:29:08)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:Chehy asked: Is there any relationship between AM and UML?
(09:30:25)*chehy与[*umlchina_seminar]说:AM与UML之间有什么必然的联系吗？
(09:30:33)[*umlchina_seminar]与所有人说:chehy是scott ambler书籍的译者
(09:30:47)[*umlchina_seminar]与所有人说:今天的讲座由他主持
(09:30:58)*chehy与所有人说:大家好
(09:32:18)VoiceOfScottAmbler与所有人说:page 2
(09:33:21)*chehy与所有人说:第三页
(09:33:35)*chehy与所有人说:四个不同的主题
(09:35:29)*chehy与所有人说:第四页
(09:36:17)*chehy与所有人说:现在在讲建模和文档
(09:36:27)VoiceOfScottAmbler与所有人说:yes...
(09:37:51)VoiceOfScottAmbler与所有人说:page6
(09:38:57)stephen1978与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:000
(09:38:57)*chehy与所有人说:在欧洲和北美大家并没有使用过多的工具
(09:39:20)yl_tfc与所有人说:在那里下载讲义
(09:40:09)*chehy与所有人说:第七页
(09:41:01)*chehy与所有人说:Ambler正在介绍各种模型
(09:44:23)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:so then what are the most important modeling?
(09:45:01)*chehy与所有人说:scott ambler在回答问题
(09:45:29)*chehy与所有人说:要依情况而定
(09:46:30)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:up to the application,OK, thanks
(09:47:16)*outmyth与所有人说:can these modelings address the whole unified process?same?
(09:47:24)*chehy与所有人说:第八页
(09:51:57)fczucanzhon与所有人说:讲的太快,听不懂
(09:52:32)sealw与所有人说:Great idea, applying agile thoughts on modeling
(09:52:52)*chehy与所有人说:第九页
(09:53:03)fczucanzhon与所有人说:大家都听的懂吗
(09:53:12)*chehy与所有人说:UML 2
(09:53:38)*UpbeatJason与所有人说:听不懂
(09:53:56)VoiceOfScottAmbler与所有人说:UML 2 have some gap holes in business modeling
(09:54:17)sealw与所有人说:OMG think only Object, but RDB is the reality
(09:55:11)sealw与所有人说:OMG should think in UML(use case way)
(09:55:25)fczucanzhon与所有人说:听这种讲座听力要很好啊,回头练听力去
(09:56:07)sealw与所有人说:slide 10
(09:57:35)*UpbeatJason与所有人说:UML-China能不能再组织一个听讲心得讨论会？或者论坛？
(09:57:37)sealw与所有人说:how data people and model people can work together
(09:58:02)sealw与所有人说:data people think data is most important think
(09:58:04)*chehy与所有人说:enterprise issues
(09:58:11)sealw与所有人说:important thing
(09:58:12)*sailer2008与所有人说:THANKS
(09:59:11)*chehy与所有人说:fourth philosophy
(09:59:31)fczucanzhon与所有人说:听力好的一起写出来吧
(09:59:45)*chehy与所有人说:大家一起来写吧
(09:59:52)fczucanzhon与所有人说:是啊
(10:00:04)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:听写，呵呵
(10:01:11)sealw与所有人说:have to respect the reality of various technologies
(10:01:13)*chehy与所有人说:13
(10:01:20)*chehy与所有人说:slide
(10:01:40)*chehy与所有人说:chat
(10:01:56)sealw与所有人说:communicate is important
(10:02:17)*chehy与所有人说:开发者要明白所有的事情
(10:02:31)sealw与所有人说:we should learn English to communicate with Scott
(10:02:43)*UpbeatJason与所有人说:：）
(10:04:12)*chehy与所有人说:when to apply each choice
(10:04:15)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:agile modelers r generalist
(10:04:35)*chehy与所有人说:learn English to communicate with Scott
(10:04:55)*chehy与所有人说:slide 15
(10:05:00)fczucanzhon与所有人说:yes
(10:05:15)sealw与所有人说:refactoring
(10:05:29)*chehy与所有人说:database refactoring
(10:05:51)sealw与所有人说:not adding or taking anythin away
(10:05:52)delson与*chehy说:just good enough 咋译?
(10:05:53)*chehy与所有人说:is the same thing you refactor
(10:06:01)*chehy与所有人说:database schema
(10:06:09)delson与*chehy说:恰好?
(10:06:12)sealw与所有人说:db refactoring is really hard
(10:06:31)sealw与所有人说:schema is coupled tightly
(10:07:01)*chehy与所有人说:if you take a walk at all the data theories
(10:07:22)*chehy与所有人说:to improve the design and the coupling
(10:07:30)sealw与所有人说:reduce the coupling of db schema
(10:07:57)*chehy与所有人说:this is why the refactoring is hard
(10:07:57)VoiceOfScottAmbler与所有人说:AD is mainly to de-coupling
(10:08:05)sealw与所有人说:introduing a look up table
(10:08:17)sealw与所有人说:many methods to improve
(10:08:38)*chehy与所有人说:slide 18
(10:09:21)sealw与所有人说:refactoring example
(10:09:22)*chehy与所有人说:international post code
(10:09:48)*chehy与所有人说:refactor the database schema
(10:10:07)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:how to evaluating our design between object-driven and data-driven? r there some good practices?
(10:10:10)*chehy与所有人说:on the left panel side
(10:10:20)sealw与所有人说:zip code int
(10:10:52)*chehy与所有人说:add a triger
(10:10:56)*chehy与所有人说:trigger
(10:11:10)*chehy与所有人说:zipcode & postcode column
(10:12:00)*chehy与所有人说:zipcode ==> postcode
(10:12:01)sealw与所有人说:replace zipcode with postcode
(10:12:31)VoiceOfScottAmbler与所有人说:原来是一个integer类型的zipcode字段，后来有了新的需求，增加一个新字段postcode
(10:13:00)sealw与所有人说:db refactoing tools
(10:13:09)VoiceOfScottAmbler与所有人说:需要用trigger同步，重构以后只剩下postcode，over
(10:13:56)*chehy与所有人说:dba refactor the database
(10:14:13)sealw与所有人说:db refactor is a viable concept
(10:14:58)sealw与所有人说:regression test is the guard
(10:15:10)sealw与所有人说:not break anything
(10:15:58)*chehy与所有人说:the next slide
(10:16:02)*chehy与所有人说:21
(10:16:13)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:work together is pretty important,but it's difficult in practice
(10:17:18)sealw与所有人说:production and retire phase is also important
(10:18:24)tuff604与所有人说:why put tailored rup on rup diagram?
(10:19:01)*chehy与所有人说:现在在回答问题
(10:19:18)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:EUP=RUP+production+retire
(10:19:27)*chehy与所有人说:tailor your rup to meet your organization's needs
(10:19:41)tuff604与*chehy说:thank u
(10:19:46)sealw与所有人说:Do you Test First on building DB schema?
(10:20:08)tuff604与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:where to find out the detail of EUP？
(10:20:16)sealw与所有人说:dbuit
(10:20:25)sealw与所有人说:dbunit
(10:20:55)sealw与所有人说:dbunit is for seed data
(10:20:57)*chehy与所有人说:this kind of tools is not finished
(10:21:01)*chehy与所有人说:yet
(10:21:22)sealw与所有人说:db people don't work with code
(10:21:39)sealw与所有人说:db people need such tools
(10:21:46)sealw与所有人说:to support Test First
(10:22:02)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.com
(10:22:08)*chehy与所有人说:现在回答tuff604的问题
(10:22:11)*MichaelVizdos与*MichaelVizdos说:大家好
(10:22:45)tuff604与*chehy说:got
(10:22:55)*ruanweifeng与sealw说:Agile Modeling (AM) Site 中文站什么时候开
(10:23:05)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:www.agilemodeling.com
(10:23:08)*outmyth与*ruanweifeng说:hehe
(10:23:27)sealw与*ruanweifeng说:我不知啊
(10:23:48)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:MichaelVizdos是ronin-intl的Vice President
(10:23:52)fczucanzhon与sealw说:大家有知道<<统一软件开发过程>>中文版电子书下载地址的吗
(10:24:16)sealw与fczucanzhon说:我建议您买纸版
(10:24:28)*ruanweifeng与*chehy说:Agile Modeling (AM) Site 中文站什么时候开
(10:24:37)*outmyth与*MichaelVizdos说:welcome
(10:24:41)*chehy与*ruanweifeng说:我还真不知道
(10:24:43)fczucanzhon与sealw说:我想先看看电子版的
(10:24:54)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:would you like a break now
(10:24:57)*chehy与fczucanzhon说:FTP上都有
(10:25:16)*chehy与fczucanzhon说:但纸版的也不算贵，翻译得也很好啊
(10:25:20)fczucanzhon与sealw说:您知道ftp地址吗
(10:25:27)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:OK, see you 5 minutes later
(10:25:34)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:ok, on break
(10:25:41)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:大家准备一下问题
(10:25:50)*zhobin与*chehy说:什么ftp上有，地址?
(10:26:03)[*umlchina_seminar]与*ScottAmbler说:Just keep the phone connection )
(10:26:37)fczucanzhon与sealw说:我是说ftp网址
(10:26:54)sealw与fczucanzhon说:问umlchina吧
(10:27:05)sealw与fczucanzhon说:我不知道,我很少看电子书
(10:27:07)*MichaelVizdos与所有人说:大家好
(10:27:41)VoiceOfScottAmbler与[*umlchina_seminar]说:刚才Professor说到是否有人愿意翻译AM网站内容，说不定umlchina 愿意组织 )
(10:28:09)*zhobin与*chehy说:what is ncicios
(10:28:19)fczucanzhon与所有人说:来点音乐啊
(10:28:37)*UpbeatJason与所有人说:I'd leave, thank you ScottAmbler, thanks umlchina, thanks everybody. bye
(10:28:41)fczucanzhon与所有人说:ncic ios ict是什么意思
(10:28:46)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:thanks for coming!
(10:28:53)sealw与fczucanzhon说:Scott关于O/R mapping的文章非常经典
(10:28:57)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:want to get started again?
(10:29:13)sealw与fczucanzhon说:Thank you, Scott
(10:29:14)[*umlchina_seminar]与*ScottAmbler说:OK. start again! )
(10:29:14)VoiceOfScottAmbler与所有人说:OK, we are ready now
(10:29:22)*outmyth与*MichaelVizdos说:how to evaluating our design between object-driven and data-driven? r there some good practices?
(10:29:26)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:a good url is www.agiledata.org/essays/mappingObjects.html
(10:30:49)sealw与所有人说:that is a classic article
(10:31:29)*chehy与所有人说:need to be constrained or not to be
(10:31:36)*zhobin与*chehy说:username and password?
(10:32:29)sealw与*ScottAmbler说:What do you think are bad smells of DB schema?
(10:32:33)*ruanweifeng与所有人说:How do the software fit together?
(10:32:36)*outmyth与*MichaelVizdos说:thanks
(10:32:59)*MichaelVizdos与*outmyth说:大家好
(10:33:52)*chehy与所有人说:poor naming condition
(10:34:12)sealw与*ScottAmbler说:If you use trigger to refactoring, can schema get worse and worse?
(10:34:18)*MichaelVizdos与[*umlchina_seminar]说:大家好
(10:35:11)sealw与*ScottAmbler说:thanks
(10:35:19)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:how do u think of some open source O/R mapping framworks such as hibernate,jdo, it's hot topic now
(10:35:48)sealw与*ScottAmbler说:Castor?
(10:36:18)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:www.ambysoft.com/persistenceLayer.html
(10:37:41)fczucanzhon与*chehy说:username and password
(10:37:58)*chehy与所有人说:any other questions?
(10:38:11)[*umlchina_seminar]与*ScottAmbler说:When will Object Primer 3rd be available
(10:38:43)fczucanzhon与*chehy说:ftp username and password
(10:38:48)*MichaelVizdos与所有人说:大家好
(10:38:57)sealw与*ScottAmbler说:Your Process Patterns is good.
(10:39:02)*chehy与fczucanzhon说:科学院内部访问，anonymous
(10:39:20)sealw与*ScottAmbler说:Chinese version is coming soon
(10:39:45)*chehy与所有人说:what is the new modelling trend in north america?
(10:40:49)*yoyosun与[*umlchina_seminar]说:有关于petri网的讲座吗
(10:41:28)sealw与*ScottAmbler说:PIM to PDM is hard.
(10:43:27)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:do u agree ejb container can be replace by some lightweight ioc container such as spring,pico
(10:43:52)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:or both work together?
(10:44:38)sealw与*outmyth说:different container fits different situation
(10:44:53)*chehy与所有人说:any questions?
(10:45:06)*chehy与所有人说:How to make the appropriate role classification in agile modelling?
(10:45:20)*chehy与所有人说:yeah
(10:47:28)*chehy与所有人说:anyone has questions?
(10:47:34)*outmyth与京枝说:tell us something about your new book "Practical Guide to Enterprise Architecture"
(10:48:58)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:i love practical style,thanks,welcome to beijing
(10:49:40)sealw与所有人说:Do you think the distributed component architcture is the future of Enterprise Achitecture?
(10:52:50)*chehy与所有人说:is there any chance that conflict will appear if we always adhere to the AM principles?
(10:52:54)*chehy与所有人说:i.e. is there any inherent conflict in AM principles?
(10:53:08)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:how to make our choice between a collocated and distributed architcture
(10:53:22)sealw与所有人说:thanks
(10:54:34)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:base on requirement?
(10:55:20)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:any more questions?
(10:55:48)*chehy与所有人说:xUnit & Ant & CVS, any other tools?
(10:55:58)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:eclipse
(10:56:25)*chehy与所有人说:in AM
(10:56:29)sealw与所有人说:i use junit, ant and cvs
(10:57:32)sealw与所有人说:paper and whiteboard is good for modeling
(10:57:41)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:And how do you think the tools of both together and Rational XDE Developer in code generating?
(10:58:12)*MichaelVizdos与*outmyth说:大家好
(10:58:40)*outmyth与*MichaelVizdos说:welcome
(10:58:55)sealw与所有人说:Cockburn suggest a whiteboard with printing function
(11:00:04)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:how do you think the vision of executable UML today? :)
(11:00:57)*ruanweifeng与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:What Has Changed XP, DSDM，？
(11:01:39)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:hehe, programmers are still here now,thanks
(11:03:19)*chehy与所有人说:what kind of people is appropriate for doing AM modelling
(11:03:43)sealw与所有人说:modeling skills
(11:03:52)sealw与所有人说:communication skills
(11:03:56)sealw与所有人说:open mind
(11:04:08)sealw与所有人说:ability of working with others
(11:05:19)sealw与所有人说:the question is not "do we need modeling?"
(11:05:31)sealw与所有人说:the question is "how we do modeling"
(11:06:19)sealw与所有人说:i think agile modeling is a viable way
(11:06:46)sealw与所有人说:quick feed back
(11:06:55)sealw与所有人说:quick evolution
(11:08:09)*chehy与所有人说:questions?
(11:08:14)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:Any idea of how [modeling tools like Rational Rose] make itself better to fit agile modeling? )
(11:08:24)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:take a look at www.agilemodeling.com/practices.htm for a description of how to model
(11:08:55)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:Any idea of how modeling tools vendor like Rational make their tools better to fit agile modeling?
(11:11:41)sealw与所有人说:bad link: http://www.agilechina.org/agilemodeling/practices.htm
系统： 麦克风被您交给VoiceOfScottAmbler。
(11:12:51)*chehy与所有人说:Why AM is not so popular here in china now
(11:13:25)sealw与*chehy说:ok, the server has problem
(11:13:56)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:2004 will be "Ambler's Year" in China I think, Mr. Scott ambler got Jolt award this year.
(11:14:29)*chehy与所有人说:congratulations to Mr. Scott ambler
(11:14:41)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:ongratulations
(11:14:58)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:And his website got the "best website" award
(11:15:07)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:i've just been nominated
(11:15:17)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:we'll find out who won next week
(11:16:02)sealw与*chehy说:hope you can win
(11:16:10)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:www.sdmagazine.com
(11:17:00)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说::)
(11:17:37)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:would you tell us that how is your normal day life?
(11:18:13)*sunqingyong与所有人说:I'm later? Is it completed?
(11:19:52)sealw与所有人说:every day is special day
(11:19:55)*chehy与所有人说:How can we quickly master such an aesthetic modelling techniques
(11:20:01)VoiceOfScottAmbler与*ScottAmbler说:nice, thank you
(11:20:19)*MichaelVizdos与*chehy说:大家好
(11:20:22)sealw与所有人说:thanks to Scott
(11:20:27)sealw与所有人说:thanks to umlchina
(11:20:40)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:yes thanks for inviting for me
(11:20:45)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:Thanks Mr. Scott ambler, Mr. Michael Vizdos
(11:21:03)*MichaelVizdos与[*umlchina_seminar]说:大家好
(11:21:12)sealw与所有人说:Chiness is shy, hehe
(11:21:23)*chehy与所有人说:many thanks to Mr. Scott ambler & Mr. Michael Vizdos
(11:21:49)sealw与所有人说:Welcome to China
(11:21:54)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:www.ronin-intl.com
(11:22:19)[*umlchina_seminar]与所有人说:那我们今天到此结束？
(11:22:36)sealw与所有人说:OK
(11:22:46)heroxn与所有人说:tha
(11:22:48)*outmyth与*ScottAmbler说:thanks umlchina
(11:22:50)*chehy与所有人说:thanks for your precious time
(11:22:51)*ScottAmbler与所有人说:thanks
(11:22:52)heroxn与所有人说:thanks
(11:22:53)[*umlchina_seminar]与VoiceOfScottAmbler说:OK! Thanks everybody!
(11:22:57)delson与所有人说:谢谢，Scott, UMLchina!
(11:22:59)sealw与*ScottAmbler说:Thank you
(11:24:33)[*umlchina_seminar]与所有人说:结束。谢谢大家！
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