图灵在布莱切利园的女朋友_前亚马逊副总裁蒂姆·布莱伊为什么离开了

图灵在布莱切利园的女朋友

重点 (Top highlight)

大技术 (BIG TECHNOLOGY)

OneZero is partnering with Big Technology, a newsletter and podcast by Alex Kantrowitz, to bring readers exclusive access to interviews with notable figures in and around the tech industry.

OneZero 与 Alex Kantrowitz的时事通讯和播客 Big Technology 合作 ，使读者可以独家访问科技行业内外的知名人物。

This week, Kantrowitz sits down with Tim Bray, an ex-VP for Amazon and distinguished engineer who quit after the company fired employees who spoke up about working conditions in its warehouses. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

本周，Kantrowitz与亚马逊前副总裁，杰出工程师蒂姆·布雷(Tim Bray)坐下来，在该公司解雇了谈论仓库工作条件的员工之后，辞职。 这次采访经过了长度和清晰度的编辑。

To subscribe to the podcast and hear the interview for yourself, you can check it out on iTunes, Spotify, and Overcast.

要订阅播客并亲自收听采访， 您可以在 iTunes ， Spotify 和 Overcast 上签出 。

In May, Amazon VP and distinguished engineer Tim Bray said he was leaving the company. Amazon had just fired employees who spoke out against its working conditions, and Bray couldn’t tolerate it. He handed in his resignation and published an astonishing blog post detailing his decision — an unprecedented move for an executive inside the tech giants. “I choose neither to serve nor drink that poison,” he wrote.

今年五月，是一个 ZON副总裁兼著名工程师蒂姆·布雷说，他离开了公司。 亚马逊刚刚解雇了反对其工作条件的员工 ，布雷对此忍无可忍。 他递交了辞呈，并发表了一篇惊人的博客文章，详细说明了他的决定-这对于科技巨头内部的高管来说是前所未有的举动。 他写道：“我既不选择服役也不喝这种毒药。”

By listening to Bray, we can learn a bit more about how people inside the tech giants view their power and how they might drive change as Congress and regulators stand still.

通过听布雷说，我们可以学到更多有关科技巨头内部人们如何看待自己的权力以及在国会和监管机构停滞不前时如何推动变革的更多信息。

Alex Kantrowitz: Does it feel painful, or do you feel like you did the right thing?

Alex Kantrowitz：感到疼痛吗，还是觉得自己做对了？

Tim Bray: Well, both. It was the world’s greatest job, and I really liked the people, and AWS is a treat to work for. But that was just not a thing that I could let go by.

蒂姆·布雷：恩，两个。 这是世界上最伟大的工作，我真的很喜欢人们，AWS是工作的一种享受。 但这不是我可以放手的事情。

I want to read something from your departure letter. You said that “firing whistleblowers is evidence of a vein of toxicity running through the company culture. I choose neither to serve nor drink that poison.” Could you help us understand what that toxicity is?

我想从你的离职信中读些东西。 您说“解雇举报者是公司文化中不断蔓延的毒性证据。 我既不服役也不喝这种毒药。” 您能帮助我们了解这种毒性是什么吗？

Well, I’m really not going to be able to explain it because I don’t understand it. I spent five and a half years at Amazon. I would say it is an exceptionally well-managed, well-run company. These days, in the days of late capitalism, there’s a lot of things to displease even mildly progressive people about the way big companies are run. And Amazon operates within the rules of businesses as they currently operate, and that leads to some things like situations in the warehouse that concern people. Obviously, it didn’t concern me enough for me to quit because I kept on working there for five and a half years. But then when this firing the whistleblowers and activists thing started, that just seemed different. It didn’t seem like a thing that a company ought to do within or without the rules. It just felt wrong and not something that I was comfortable with.

好吧，我真的无法解释它，因为我不理解。 我在亚马逊呆了五年半。 我想说这是一家管理得特别好，经营得很好的公司。 如今，在晚期资本主义时代，对于大公司的运作方式，即使是温和的进步人士也有很多不满之处。 亚马逊在当前业务运作中遵守业务规则，这导致了诸如仓库中涉及人员的情况之类的事情。 显然，我对辞职并不十分关注，因为我在那儿工作了五年半。 但是，当解雇举报人和激进主义者的事情开始时，情况似乎就不同了。 在规则内或没有规则的情况下，公司似乎都不应该这样做。 这只是感觉不对，而不是我不满意的事情。

“The entire basis of 21st-century capitalism builds in a huge amount of disregard for people in blue-collar jobs by people in white-collar jobs.”

“ 21世纪资本主义的全部基础是，白领工作的人无视蓝领工作的人。”

And I think when you carry a VP rank, you really need to be able to speak for the company in a comfortable way and explain its reasons for the things it does, and I couldn’t, so I didn’t.

而且我认为，当您担任VP职位时，您确实需要能够以一种舒适的方式为公司发言，并解释其行事的原因，而我不能，所以我没有。

Having said that, not only did I find [the firings] ethically challenging to an unacceptable degree, I thought it wasn’t very smart. Have these people never heard of the Streisand effect? It seems like firing activists is like pointing 50-foot arrows of fire at a situation and saying, “Oh, there’s something here we don’t want you to hear about.” So I was disappointed in that. But I just did not feel I could be a public-facing person as part of a company that did things like that.

话虽如此，我不仅发现解雇在道德上具有不可接受的挑战性，而且我认为这不是很聪明。 这些人是否从未听说过史翠珊效应？ 发射激进分子似乎就像是在某种情况下指向50英尺长的发射箭，然后说：“哦，这里有些事情我们不希望您听到。” 所以我对此感到失望。 但是我只是感觉自己不能成为一家从事类似工作的公司的一部分而成为面向公众的人。

Yeah. Then going back to the toxicity, is it more of a disregard for worker conditions? Is it a disconnect between people in the white-collar jobs and the blue-collar jobs at Amazon? How would you describe it?

是的 然后回到毒性，是否更不用理工人条件了？ 是亚马逊白领工作人员和蓝领工作人员之间的脱节吗？ 您如何形容？

Well, I think that the entire basis of 21st-century capitalism builds in a huge amount of disregard for people in blue-collar jobs by people in white-collar jobs. And Amazon is by no means the worst. I mean, you could look at Walmart, you can look at any number, particularly in the agricultural sector, the meat-packing plants and so on. Amazon is by no means the worst. But I think that is not an Amazon problem. That is a societal problem. And if we do not like the way that blue-collar workers are treated, we need to do old-fashioned regulation and legislation to deal with that.

好吧，我认为21世纪资本主义的全部基础是建立在白领工作的人对蓝领工作的人的无视中。 亚马逊绝不是最坏的。 我的意思是，您可以看看沃尔玛，也可以看看任何数量，尤其是在农业领域，肉类包装工厂等方面。 亚马逊绝不是最糟糕的。 但是我认为这不是亚马逊的问题。 那是一个社会问题。 而且，如果我们不喜欢蓝领工人的待遇，我们就需要制定老式的法规和立法来应对。

Having said that, I thought that firing activists was qualitatively different. It was a step over the line and not just a routine part of the practice of modern capitalism. It was just something I couldn’t be comfortable with.

话虽如此，我认为解雇积极分子在质上是不同的。 这是跨越界限的一步，而不仅仅是现代资本主义实践的常规部分。 这只是我无法接受的事情。

In terms of the whistleblowers, can you tell us a little bit about what the story looked like on the inside? We know that it was pretty challenging in the middle of Covid-19 for Amazon to maintain safety precautions inside the warehouses, and there was a feeling inside that people were just like, “This isn’t going to work.”

就举报人而言，您能告诉我们一些有关内部故事的故事吗？ 我们知道，在Covid-19中期，亚马逊要在仓库内保持安全预防措施非常具有挑战性，而且内部感觉到人们就像在说“这行不通”。

Oh, I disagree. I don’t think that there was a “this isn’t going to work” feeling. I think that is absolutely the case that Amazon invested a huge amount of time and effort in trying to make the warehouses safer and operable. At the same time, we were hearing repeated and sustained objections from the staff who didn’t feel safe at work, and I didn’t have any trouble believing both of those things: That Amazon was working hard at this, and that there was still a lot of deeply expressed concern among the staff. I don’t believe for a moment that Covid makes it impossible to do business. We’re going to have to figure out how to do it, and things may run slower, and they may be more expensive, but I certainly wouldn’t be a defeatist about it.

哦，我不同意。 我认为没有“这行不通”的感觉。 我认为绝对是这样的情况，亚马逊投入了大量时间和精力来尝试使仓库更安全，更可操作。 同时，我们听到工作人员感到一再的不间断反对，他们对工作感到不安全，我毫不费力地相信这两件事：亚马逊正在为此而努力，并且仍然有很多员工对此表示深切的关注。 我暂时不相信Covid无法开展业务。 我们将不得不弄清楚该怎么做，事情可能会变慢，并且可能会更昂贵，但是我当然不会成为失败者。

You mentioned that it wasn’t smart for Amazon to fire the whistleblowers. Why do you think they did it? Because you’re right. It does bring more attention to the things that they’re speaking up about.

您提到亚马逊解雇举报人并不明智。 您为什么认为他们做到了？ 因为你是对的。 它确实引起了人们对他们所说的事情的更多关注。

I absolutely do not know. Sorry, but I just don’t.

我绝对不知道。 抱歉，我不知道。

Is there a tolerance for dissent inside Amazon?

亚马逊内部对异议的容忍度是多少？

There is a huge tolerance for dissent inside Amazon. One of the core leadership principles they run the company on is “disagree and commit,” which means that dissenting opinions are not only acceptable, they are sought out, actively sought out in the context of any really important decision to make sure that new people know what’s going on. And I think the effect of that is that, as part of the leadership, the company may choose decisions that go in different ways than what you’d like to see, but generally you have the feeling that you were listened to, that you may have lost the argument, and that’s certainly happened. During my time in leadership there, there were some big arguments that I lost, but that was, at the end of the day, okay. And I was willing to go and publicly defend the position that we took because I felt listened to. But that only goes so far. And when the occurrence that happens is way outside your ethical bounds, that’s different.

亚马逊内部对异议的容忍度很高。 他们运营公司所依据的核心领导原则之一是“不同意并承诺”，这意味着不同意见不仅可以接受，而且可以在任何真正重要的决定中确保新员工被积极寻求。知道发生了什么事。 而且我认为这样做的结果是，作为领导层的一部分，公司可能会选择与您希望看到的方式不同的决策，但总的来说，您会觉得自己已经被倾听，可以已经失去了论点，这肯定是发生了。 在我在那里的领导期间，我失去了一些重要论点，但最后还是可以了。 我愿意去公开捍卫我们所采取的立场，因为我感到被倾听了。 但这只是到目前为止。 当发生的事情超出了您的道德界限时，情况就不同了。

I wonder if “disagree and commit” inside Amazon applies when it comes towards building things that Amazon wants. And I wonder if they live that leadership principle when it comes to dissent or when it comes to allowing for disagreement on things in terms of ethics and not in terms of product development.

我想知道在构建亚马逊想要的东西时，亚马逊内部的“不同意并承诺”是否适用。 我想知道他们在反对意见时还是在道德问题上而不是产品开发方面达成共识时是否遵循这种领导原则。

Obviously, once you have a regulatory framework, large organizations are going to skate right up to the edge of it, and that’s why regulations have to be very carefully written. But I would have to say that during my time there, I simply did not see anything that I thought was even remotely illegal or unethical. The problem isn’t that. Amazon says that they manage things in a customer-obsessed way, and that is absolutely true. And if you look at what Amazon’s retail side offers, they offer broad selection, low prices, and fast delivery. Well, how could anybody be against those things? Those are obviously good things.

显然，一旦有了监管框架，大型组织就会顺其自然，这就是为什么必须非常仔细地编写法规的原因。 但是我不得不说，在我在那里的时间里，我根本没有看到任何我认为甚至是非法的或不道德的东西。 问题不在于此。 亚马逊表示，他们以客户痴迷的方式管理事物，这是绝对正确的。 而且，如果您看一下亚马逊零售部门提供的服务，它们可以提供广泛的选择，低廉的价格和快速的交付。 好吧，有人会反对这些东西吗？ 这些显然是好事。

Having said that, nothing is free. There has to be a price for everything. And I think I have a broad concern, not just for Amazon in particular, but for our economy and society as a whole, that when you work out the arithmetic there, the experience and life of the powerless is not factored into that arithmetic, and the structure of our society makes that far, far too easy.

话虽如此，没有什么是免费的。 一切都必须付出代价。 而且我认为，我不仅对亚马逊尤其是对于我们的经济和整个社会都有广泛的关注，当您在这里制定算术时，无能为力的经验和生活不会被纳入该算术中，并且我们社会的结构使这一切变得太容易了。

And I return to my main point, which is that this isn’t an Amazon problem; this is by and large a societal problem. It comes from the really unacceptable difference in power and wealth between the powerful and the powerless. It’s what was described as the 1% versus 99% problem. And the structure of our society is such that people like those who work in the warehouses have essentially very little bargaining power. Specifically in the United States, they have even less because the regulatory framework in America is so powerfully anti-union. And then what even sharpens the contrast is that in America, your health insurance is tied to your employment. So the prospect of losing your employment is terribly, terribly frightening. And all those things work together to create a situation which I think needs to be changed.

我要说的重点是，这不是亚马逊的问题。 这在很大程度上是一个社会问题。 它来自于强者与无权者之间在权力和财富上确实无法接受的差异。 这就是所谓的1％对99％的问题。 而且，我们的社会结构如此之大，以至于像在仓库工作的人这样的讨价还价能力很小。 特别是在美国，它们所拥有的更少，因为美国的监管框架是如此强大地反对工会。 然后，甚至更加鲜明的是，在美国，您的健康保险与您的工作息息相关。 因此，失去工作的前景非常可怕。 所有这些因素共同作用，创造了一种我认为需要改变的局面。

Did people inside Amazon senior ranks ever talk about these issues? It seems like it’s something that’s being discussed in their politics overall, but I’m curious if it actually gets discussed inside the workplace.

亚马逊高层人员中是否曾经谈论过这些问题？ 他们的政治似乎正在讨论这一问题，但我很好奇它是否在工作场所内部得到讨论。

Oh, no, generally not. There was very, very little political discussion. We were, in Amazon Web Services where I worked, we were trying to solve the problem of making IT better by applying cloud technology. And let me tell you, that was a big enough subject to occupy 150% of our time.

哦，不，通常不会。 很少有政治讨论。 在我工作的Amazon Web Services中，我们试图通过应用云技术来解决使IT更好的问题。 让我告诉你，这足以占据我们150％的时间。

What do you think would have happened if you were to bring up the fact that “we here at Amazon are working in a broader system that does lend itself at times to worker exploitation?”

如果您提出这样一个事实：“我们在亚马逊这里工作的系统正在更广泛地适用于工人剥削，那您会怎么想？”

Well, I don’t think it’s a secret that I was a person with progressive opinions. I’m also a loud-mouthed environmentalist, and by Canadian standards, I am moderately progressive, which means by U.S. standards, I’m sort of a basic, red-toothed commie. Here in British Columbia, the province I live in, we have a provincial government that is not far off where Bernie Sanders is in the States. So, I don’t think anybody didn’t know that I had a lot of progressive opinions.

好吧，我认为我是一个有进取心的人并不是什么秘密。 我也是一个大声疾呼的环保主义者，按照加拿大的标准，我是一个比较进步的人，这意味着按照美国的标准，我是一个基本的，有齿的通讯社。 在我居住的省份不列颠哥伦比亚省，我们的省政府与伯尼·桑德斯所在的州不远。 因此，我认为没有人不知道我有很多进步意见。

Okay. But if you were to voice them, do you think the leadership was by and large concerned, for instance, with worker well-being?

好的。 但是，如果您要表达他们的声音，您是否认为领导班子大体上与工人的福利有关？

Well, let me tell you, in the context of AWS, Amazon Web Services, we, because I was a member of that leadership, were extremely concerned with worker well-being. And just an example of that, when Covid came along and all of a sudden we started a massive, large-scale work-from-home experiment, we bent over backwards to make sure that this was working out for people because work from home works for some, but not for others. If you’re a small family living in a small apartment with kids who suddenly aren’t going to school, work from home can be pretty hellish.

好吧，让我告诉您，在AWS，Amazon Web Services的背景下，由于我是该领导层的一员，我们非常关心员工的福祉。 只是一个例子，当Covid出现时，突然我们开始了一项大规模的大规模在家工作实验，我们弯腰退缩，以确保这对人们有效，因为在家工作对于某些人，但对于其他人则不然。 如果您是一个小家庭，住在一个小公寓里，而孩子们突然不去上学，那么在家工作可能会让人感到地狱。

Yeah, but what about the retail workers though?

是的，但是零售工人呢？

I have a point here that I want to make which is that we took extreme interest in how this thing’s working out, and we worried a lot about the AWS workers. And I think that illustrates something important. The fact of the matter is that the Amazon Web Services workers are mostly engineers and knowledge workers who were empowered. They were high-paid, and if they didn’t like their job, they could walk across the street and get another one. And so here we have one group of workers who are being taken really excellent care of and another group of workers who are expressing terrible fear and concern about their health and safety at work. Well, what’s the difference? It’s power. Other workers who are empowered get a much better level of treatment from their employers.

我要说的是，我们对这件事的工作方式非常感兴趣，我们非常担心AWS工作者。 我认为这说明了重要的事情。 事实是，Amazon Web Services的工作人员大多是被授权的工程师和知识工作者。 他们的薪水很高，如果他们不喜欢他们的工作，他们可以走到马路对面，再找一个。 因此，在这里，我们有一组工人受到了非常好的照顾，而另一组工人则对其工作中的健康和安全表示恐惧和担忧。 好吧，有什么区别？ 是力量 其他有权工作的工人会从雇主那里得到更好的待遇。

Do you think companies can push change here? I mean, given your discussions with leadership, do you think that a company can say, “This is how the system works, but we’re not going to operate by the rules just because we can, we’re actually going to do better by workers,” or do you think it’s going to take the government to change them?

您认为公司可以在这里推动变革吗？ 我的意思是，考虑到您与领导层的讨论，您认为一家公司可以说：“这就是系统的工作方式，但是我们不会仅仅因为我们能做到而就遵守规则，而是实际上会做得更好工人”，或者您认为政府要改变他们？

I really wish if I or the president of United States were to talk to the big companies the way I talked to my kids saying, “Now play nice or no dessert” kind of thing, that would work, but it won’t. I absolutely think that it is precisely the role of government and politics to address this kind of situation. And if some of us are concerned with the way that people are being treated in context such as warehouses, then what we need to do is to change the regulatory and legislative framework so that it is no longer acceptable to do that. And I’m sorry, that means getting down and grinding out boring old politics, knocking on doors, finding candidates to support, organizing behind them. Politics is a slow, messy, and, for many people, unpleasant business, but it’s the tool we have for changing things in society we don’t like.

我真的希望我或美国总统能像我对我的孩子们所说的那样，与大公司交谈：“现在玩点好吃或不吃甜食”，那是可行的，但是不会。 我绝对认为，解决这种情况恰恰是政府和政治的作用。 而且，如果我们中的某些人担心在诸如仓库之类的环境中对待人们的方式，那么我们需要做的就是更改监管和立法框架，以使这样做不再被接受。 我很抱歉，这意味着下来并磨炼无聊的旧政治，敲门，寻找支持的候选人，在他们背后组织。 政治是一个缓慢，混乱，对许多人来说令人不愉快的生意，但这是我们拥有的改变社会上不喜欢的事物的工具。

That’s interesting. So when you were in Amazon, did you believe in having the government come in and regulate the company? Or was it only after you left did you think that regulation would be the move?

那很有意思。 因此，当您在亚马逊时，您是否相信要让政府介入并规范公司？ 还是只是在您离开后才认为监管将成为举措？

In Canada, I’m a supporter of a party called the New Democratic Party, which is currently the government here in my local province, which is pretty well along the lines of the Democratic Socialists in the States. So yeah, I actively gave money, and my family went out and knocked on doors and things like that. So yeah, I’ve been politically active on and off for years.

在加拿大，我是一个名为“新民主党”的政党的支持者，该党目前是我所在省份的政府，这与美国的民主社会主义者的做法非常吻合。 是的，我积极捐钱，我的家人出去了，敲了门之类的事情。 是的，我从事政治活动多年。

But in terms of actually wanting Amazon itself to be regulated, I guess it would come in terms of being regulated as far as the way that worker protections are implemented overall. But when you were working there, is that something you wanted? You wanted to see the government come and rein it in?

但是从实际上希望对亚马逊本身进行监管的角度来看，我想这将取决于对工人保护的整体实施方式进行监管。 但是当您在那工作时，您是否想要什么？ 您想看到政府来控制它吗？

So, I absolutely do not want to regulate Amazon. I want to regulate the operation of the larger economy. I think the rules should be the same for all big companies, and I think the rules should do a much better job of empowering the powerless in society. So, yes, I’m an activist. Yes, I would like to see stronger regulatory and legal frameworks. No, I’m not particularly interested in going after Amazon in particular.

因此，我绝对不想监管亚马逊。 我想规范更大经济体的运作。 我认为规则对于所有大公司都应该是相同的，并且我认为规则应该在赋予社会上无能为力者方面做得更好。 所以，是的，我是一名激进主义者。 是的，我希望看到更强大的监管和法律框架。 不，我对追求亚马逊特别感兴趣。

Right. So just capturing Amazon in a regulation that would affect the broader economy. What percentage of Amazon executives do you think hold that perspective?

对。 因此，仅以一项会影响整个经济的法规来吸引亚马逊。 您认为亚马逊高管占百分之几？

By and large, the technology workers tend to be vastly progressive. In the American context, that means they tend to vote for and give money to Democrats rather than Republicans. Obviously, the higher you move up the food chain, probably the less is true, but I’ll be honest, I never had a political discussion with a member of the senior leadership team. One of the reasons for that is that being in leadership at a large successful company, such as Amazon, Amazon Web Services, is fantastically fun. It’s about the most fun you can have and get paid for. And when you’re doing it, it occupies 110% of your attention. And you might be the kind of person who just simply doesn’t want to think about politics at all because you’re just too busy making customers happy and making the business work. So the rank and file, sure. Rank and file, I’m sure that I was not really a big outlier. Senior leadership, it’s a mixed picture.

总的来说，技术工作者往往会进步很大。 在美国的背景下，这意味着他们倾向于投票给民主党而不是共和党并向他们捐钱。 显然，您在食物链上的位置越高，可能就越不正确，但是老实说，我从未与高级领导团队的成员进行过政治讨论。 这样做的原因之一是，在一家成功的大型公司(例如Amazon，Amazon Web Services)中担任领导职位非常有趣。 这是您可以获得并获得报酬的最有趣的事情。 而且，当您执行此操作时，它会占据您110％的注意力。 您可能就是那种根本不想考虑政治的人，因为您太忙于让客户满意并推动业务运转。 所以，排名和文件，当然。 排名和文件，我敢肯定我并不是一个很大的异常值。 高级领导，这是好坏参半。

There are these two different ways people register dissent inside companies. One is they go and they bring their issues internally and try to get it fixed that way. And two is they exit. So why did you choose exit?

人们在公司内部注册异议的方式有两种。 一种是他们走了，他们将问题内部提出来，并试图以这种方式解决。 第二是他们退出。 那么，为什么选择退出呢？

Well, I didn’t. I did both. I did, in fact, raise the issue internally and had some extensive discussions before I left, and the reasons I left we’ve discussed fairly clearly. And for people who want to dive deeper, if you go and Google for the string “Bye Amazon, Tim Bray,” you’ll come up with the piece I wrote, which goes into a great deal of depth about that. So, certainly. I felt as a duty as an employee to express my opinion strongly to the right people. And I did that, and having done that, I then left the company.

好吧，我没有。 我都做过 实际上，我确实在内部提出了这个问题，并在离开之前进行了广泛的讨论，而离开的原因我们进行了相当清晰的讨论。 对于想更深入研究的人，如果您去Google搜索字符串“ Bye Amazon，Tim Bray”，您将想到我写的那篇文章 ，它对此有很大的深度。 所以，当然。 作为员工，我有责任向合适的人强烈表达我的意见。 我做到了，然后就离开了公司。

When you brought those issues up internally, what did people say? Were they like, “Tim, what are you talking about? This is sort of the way we do business?”

当您在内部提出这些问题时，人们怎么说？ 他们喜欢吗，“蒂姆，你在说什么？ 这是我们开展业务的方式吗？”

Well, unfortunately, those are probably covered by my nondisclosure agreement. And I was a team member, and I trusted and valued my team members, and I just don’t think it would be appropriate for me to go out and dive into the details of that.

好吧，不幸的是，我的保密协议可能涵盖了这些内容。 我是一个团队成员，我信任并珍惜我的团队成员，但我认为不适合外出并深入研究其中的细节。

Did you generally come away with an impression thinking that things could possibly change inside Amazon, or did that seem sort of like something that wasn’t going to happen there?

您是否总体上以一种认为可能在亚马逊内部发生变化的印象而来，还是看起来像在那儿不会发生的事情？

I’m just not going to dive into that, but having said that, I do believe that as I was saying a little earlier, the technology knowledge worker workforce is by and large a very progressive demographic and has had relatively little involvement with politics historically. We’re starting to see that change. There’s my story. There’s been some activism over at Google. There was an outburst of dissent over at Facebook. I suspect that should the knowledge worker demographic wake up and realize that it has a lot of political power potentially and start exercising it, that could be a really substantial force for a change in our society. So, you asked specifically, do I think Amazon has the potential to change? I don’t know, but I do think that Big Tech has the potential to, as a reflection of the activism of its employees, become a force for change and progress in society.

我只是不打算深入探讨，而是说，我的确相信，正如我早些时候所说的那样，技术知识工作者的劳动力总体上是非常进步的人口，并且从历史上看很少参与政治活动。 。 我们开始看到这种变化。 有我的故事。 Google采取了一些积极行动。 Facebook上爆发了异议。 我怀疑如果知识工作者人口统计学家醒来并意识到它具有很大的政治权力并开始行使它，那可能是改变我们社会的真正强大的力量。 因此，您专门问过，我认为亚马逊有改变的潜力吗？ 我不知道，但我确实认为，作为反映其员工积极性的体现，大技术有潜力成为推动社会变革和进步的力量。

But we also have been through a year of employees standing up and speaking their mind. You look at Google, that’s an analog. A lot of the Google activists have left the company. At Amazon, there are either activists like you who sort of did your activism on the way out or the whistleblowers who ended up getting fired. I’m a little pessimistic that the knowledge workers can get anything done given their track record so far. What do you think?

但是我们也经历了一年的员工站起来并发表自己的想法。 你看谷歌，这是一个模拟。 许多Google维权人士都离开了公司。 在亚马逊，要么有像您这样的激进主义者在出门时做过您的激进主义者，要么是举报人最终被解雇了。 我有点悲观，因为到目前为止，知识工作者可以完成任何事情。 你怎么看？

Well, I’m a natural optimist, but I would actually disagree with you. I think that five years ago, we had zero employee activism. A couple of years ago, we had a little bit. Last year, we had really quite a lot. Amazon did, in fact, for example, change its posture on climate, the climate emergency. I doubt they would come out and say it was because of employee activism, but I’d be surprised if it was entirely unrelated. I think that the potential for this to grow and get traction, particularly in a year of, in America in particular, profound political disturbance is not trivial. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see some real game-changing activism going on.

好吧，我是个天生的乐观主义者，但实际上我不同意您的看法。 我认为五年前，我们的员工积极性为零。 几年前，我们有一点点。 去年，我们确实有很多。 例如，事实上，亚马逊确实改变了其对气候的立场，即气候紧急状态。 我怀疑他们会出来是因为员工的积极性，但如果完全不相关，我会感到惊讶。 我认为，尤其是在美国，尤其是在一年的时间里，深刻的政治动荡不容小for。 看到发生了一些真正的改变游戏规则的激进主义，我一点也不感到惊讶。

Well, here’s a question for you. One thing that Amazon is pretty clear about is its obsession with customers. And we talked a little bit earlier about how that means giving people low prices and getting things to them quickly. And I’m curious what would happen if customers got together and started to lobby it, essentially saying, “Hey, we’re the customers. Your leading leadership principle is you’re obsessed with us and what we want, and it’s not just about getting the box quickly. It’s about treating workers better, being better stewards in society.” How do you think that would be received inside of Amazon if it was a big enough movement?

好吧，这是您的问题。 亚马逊非常清楚的一件事是它对客户的痴迷。 我们之前谈到了这意味着给人们低价并Swift为他们提供东西的方式。 我很好奇，如果顾客聚在一起并开始游说，将会发生什么，本质上说，“嘿，我们是顾客。 您领导力的领导原则是，您对我们以及我们想要的东西着迷，这不仅仅在于Swift取得成功。 这是关于更好地对待工人，成为社会上更好的管家。” 如果这是足够大的动作，您如何看待亚马逊内部收到的款项？

I don’t know. I mean, Amazon is not kidding when they say they’re customer-obsessed and they say that they listen to what the customer is saying. And occasionally we hear people saying, “Well, I’m going to boycott Amazon. I’m not going to buy stuff there anymore.” And you’re proposing a hypothetical scenario where people say, “Okay, well, we’re going to start boycotting Amazon unless we see more evidence of a humanistic outlook.”

我不知道。 我的意思是，当亚马逊说他们对客户着迷并且说他们听客户在说什么时，亚马逊并不是在开玩笑。 有时我们会听到人们说：“嗯，我要抵制亚马逊。 我不再去那里买东西了。” 您正在提出一个假设的场景，人们会说：“好吧，除非我们看到更多人文主义的证据，否则我们将开始抵制亚马逊。”

Not a boycott. This is more like you can lobby the government and still be a citizen, essentially saying, “We might still be Prime members, but we want you to actually respond to some of the values that we see in the world. This is what your customers want.”

不是抵制。 这更像是您可以游说政府并仍然是公民，从本质上说：“我们可能仍然是主要成员，但我们希望您对我们在世界上看到的某些价值观做出实际回应。 这就是您的客户想要的。”

I suppose. I think that broad selection, low prices, and fast delivery at the end of the day speak very, very loudly. And those are good things and things that I certainly support focusing on. I think it was John Adams who first said, “We live in an empire of laws, not of men”—of course, we’d say people now—but I think that’s true. And I think the most appropriate way to try and change the shape of society is through operating in a rules-based manner and instituting rules that you think everybody can compete equally on the basis of and let the best competitor win. And right now, I think that the facts on the ground demonstrate that the rules tolerate an unacceptable imbalance in power and wealth. And we just need to change those rules. I’m not saying people shouldn’t try and organize the kind of thing you talk about, but my own preference would be for old-fashioned political activism.

我想。 我认为广泛的选择，低廉的价格和一天结束时的快速交付可以说得非常响亮。 这些都是好事，我当然也支持重点。 我认为是约翰·亚当斯(John Adams)首先说：“我们生活在一个法律帝国中，而不是一个人类帝国中” –当然，我们现在要说的是人，但我认为这是事实。 而且我认为，尝试改变社会形态的最合适方法是通过以规则为基础的运作并制定规则，您认为每个人都可以在此基础上平等竞争，并让最佳竞争对手获胜。 现在，我认为实际情况表明，这些规则容忍了权力和财富不可接受的不平衡。 我们只需要更改这些规则。 我并不是说人们不应该尝试组织您谈论的那种事情，但是我个人更喜欢老式的政治活动主义。

Q: “Do you want to break these tech giants up?”

问：“您想分手这些科技巨头吗？”

A: “Oh, absolutely.”

答：“哦，绝对。”

I think it could happen in both ways, but I’m just curious how you think Amazon leadership would respond if they saw a broad movement within their customers to essentially lobby them as if they were a government and say, “If you’re customer-obsessed, this is what the customers want. If you’re obsessed about us, you should respond to these concerns.”

我认为这可能以两种方式发生，但是我很好奇您认为亚马逊领导层如何看待客户内部的广泛动静，就好像他们是政府一样游说他们，并说：“如果您是客户， -痴迷，这就是客户想要的。 如果您对我们着迷，应该对这些问题做出回应。”

It would be an interesting conversation, because obviously people would be concerned by saying, well, if we do that, and as a result, we have to extend our deliveries or raise our prices, would they decide to go across the street to Walmart? You’d have to really have sufficient critical mass to address those concerns. And that’s why I think you should go and apply that hammer to Amazon and Walmart at the same time. And the best way to do that is through politics.

这将是一次有趣的对话，因为显然，人们会担心，如果我们这样做，那么结果是，我们必须延长交货时间或提高价格，他们会决定过马路去沃尔玛吗？ 您必须真正有足够的临界数量来解决这些问题。 这就是为什么我认为您应该同时将锤子应用于亚马逊和沃尔玛。 做到这一点的最好方法是通过政治。

Do you want to break these tech giants up?

您想将这些科技巨头分手吗？

Oh, absolutely.

哦，绝对。

Why?

为什么？

Well, I think that if you look at organizations, several reasons. If you look at organizations like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, to start with, they’re simply too big. It becomes intractably difficult to operate in a humanist way, either towards your employees or your customers when you’re operating at that scale. Secondly, the tables are stacked. The pattern you normally see with these Big Techs is that they have stumbled across some really great piece of business that throws off a fountain of cash, which they then use to fuel invasions of other sectors, putting the incumbents in the other sectors at a competitive disadvantage.

好吧，我认为，如果您查看组织，则有几个原因。 如果首先考虑像Google，Amazon，Facebook，Microsoft这样的组织，那么它们太大了。 当您以这种规模进行操作时，无论是对员工还是对客户，以人文主义方式进行操作都变得非常困难。 其次，将桌子堆叠起来。 您通常会在这些大技术公司中看到的模式是，他们偶然发现了一些非常伟大的业务，这些业务产生了大量现金，然后将其用于助长其他行业的入侵，使其他行业的竞争者处于竞争优势。坏处。

I mean, the classic example is web search ads on Google, one of the most insanely profitable businesses that has ever existed, which has enabled them to do a bunch of bad things. I mean, they’re doing office automation with Gmail; they’re doing maps and ads on maps and reviews on maps with maps. They have lots of other businesses. And another side effect of that is that they and Facebook have established a duopoly in the advertising business, which are putting the continued existence of advertising-supported publications at a huge risk.

我的意思是，最典型的例子是Google上的网络搜索广告，这是有史以来最疯狂的盈利业务之一，这使他们能够做很多坏事。 我的意思是，他们正在使用Gmail进行办公室自动化。 他们在做地图，在地图上做广告，在带有地图的地图上做评论。 他们还有很多其他业务。 另一个副作用是，他们和Facebook在广告业务中建立了双头垄断，这使广告支持的出版物的持续存在面临巨大风险。

In the case of Microsoft, it’s the continuing cash cow of Office and Windows that throws off this fountain of cash that is used to subsidize Microsoft’s various other business ventures. And I just don’t think that is something that legal frameworks should allow. And, in fact, they didn’t used to. There was an era of antitrust in the United States where that kind of behavior was simply not tolerated. And I’d like to turn back the clock a little bit and go back to that.

以微软为例，正是Office和Windows的持续摇钱树摆脱了用于补贴微软各种其他业务的现金来源。 我只是认为法律框架不应该这样做。 而且，实际上，他们不习惯。 在美国有一个反托拉斯时代，根本不允许这种行为。 我想把时钟往回调一点，然后回头再说。

Fascinating. Chances you think that will happen?

迷人。 您认为这种情况会发生吗？

I think there’s actually quite a lot of antitrust energy, latent antitrust energy built up in the American populace as a whole. And in general, this affection with Big Business in general and Big Tech in particular, that’s been dramatic. As recently as five years ago, the Big Tech companies were kind of broadly admired and their leaders were sort of hero-worshiped, and I don’t think that’s true in 2020. I think there is — my departure and the reaction it got is another small piece of evidence for that. So I think that, depending on how the election goes, I would be really not surprised to see an aggressive ramp up in the strength of antitrust activism.

我认为实际上在整个美国民众中积累了很多反托拉斯能量，潜在的反托拉斯能量。 总的来说，这种对大企业尤其是大技术的影响是戏剧性的。 大约在五年前，大型高科技公司受到了广泛的推崇，其领导者也受到了英雄的敬畏，我认为这在2020年是不正确的。我认为确实存在-我的离开和得到的React是另一个小证据。 因此，我认为，根据选举的进行方式，我真的会惊讶地看到反托拉斯激进主义力量的激增。

Well, we will see. All right. Last question for you before we leave. You wrote this “Bye Amazon” post; you’re sitting there about to hit publish. What did it feel like in that moment?

好吧，我们将会看到。 行。 我们出发前的最后一个问题。 您写了这篇“再见亚马逊”帖子； 您正坐在那里点击发布。 那一刻感觉如何？

It was hilarious. Not so much that moment but a few moments later. So I wrote it over the weekend after I’d left, Friday being my last day, and I published it late Sunday night getting towards midnight. And I have my own little server that my blog runs on, and I was a little worried about the configuration and so on, and so I stayed up until two in the morning after fooling around with the server, just making sure everything was optimized and image loading and all the stuff you normally do. And, forgetting that I was now an unemployed bum, I still had my alarm on for early in the morning. So, well before seven in the morning, my alarm goes off and I wake up, “Oh, I don’t have to get up. Wait a second. I should just see, did that get any reaction? Oh my God.”

真是好笑。 那不是那一刻，而是一会儿。 因此，我在离开后的周末写了这封信，星期五是我的最后一天，我在周日晚上将其发布到午夜。 我有自己的小服务器，我的博客运行在该服务器上，我有点担心配置等问题，所以我在闲逛服务器后一直待到凌晨两点，只是确保对所有内容进行了优化和图片加载以及您通常所做的所有工作。 而且，忘记了我现在是个失业的流浪汉，我仍然在清晨提醒我。 因此，很早在早上七点之前，我的闹钟响了，我醒了，“哦，我不必起床。 等一会儿。 我应该看看，这有React吗？ 哦，我的上帝。”

翻译自: https://onezero.medium.com/it-just-felt-wrong-ex-amazon-vp-tim-bray-on-why-he-left-dd7aeadfbf9d

图灵在布莱切利园的女朋友