与Joni Trythall一起学习HTML，CSS和SVG，以及“面对恐惧”

In this episode of the Versioning Show, David and Tim are joined by Joni Trythall, a web designer, author, teacher and conference co-founder. They discuss learning HTML, CSS and SVG in non-traditional ways, the value of sharing code, teaching and writing about what you’re learning, doing stuff you’re uncomfortable with, not taking yourself too seriously, and blending web technology with adorable things.

在版本控制显示的这一集中，David和Tim和Web设计师，作家，老师和会议的联合创始人Joni Trythall一同加入了会议。 他们讨论以非传统方式学习HTML，CSS和SVG，共享代码的价值，教与学有关您正在学习的内容，做自己不舒服的事情，不要太认真对待自己以及将Web技术与可爱的技术融合在一起的价值东西。

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显示笔记 (Show Notes)

• Joni on Twitter: @jonitrythall

  乔尼(Joni)在Twitter： @jonitrythall

• Ela Conf

  埃拉·康

• CSS crab

  CSS蟹

• Joni’s blog

  乔尼的博客

• Girl Develop It

  女孩发展

• Tuts+ Town, Joni’s children’s course.

  Tuts + Town ，乔尼的儿童课程。

• Joni on SitePoint

  Joni在SitePoint

• Write for SitePoint

  为SitePoint编写

• Joni’s articles on SitePoint

  乔尼在SitePoint上的文章

• Joni on CodePen

  Joni在CodePen上

• Tim’s Battleship game

  蒂姆的战舰游戏

• David’s Transconcieve Project

  大卫的超社会项目

• Say hello on Twitter: @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom

  在Twitter上问好： @mdavidgreen | @tevko | @versioningshow | @sitepointdotcom

对话重点 (Conversation Highlights)

I want people in tech to be better people. Nicer to each other. I’m not a huge fan of the egos and lack of humility that sort of plague the space. So many of us will learn a thing and then declare to everyone that they need to also know that thing right away to continue calling themselves a designer, or a programmer, or a developer. And it’s just sort of bullshit. I mean, there’s sharing knowledge and being part of a community. And then there’s taking advantage of someone’s insecurities to promote your own work or your own tweet, so it’s sort of all in the name of marketing, really.

我希望科技界的人成为更好的人。 彼此更好。 我不是自负的狂热粉丝，也不是那种会困扰整个空间的谦卑的人。 我们中的很多人都会学到东西，然后向所有人宣布他们还需要立即知道该东西，以便继续称自己为设计师，程序员或开发人员。 这只是胡扯。 我的意思是，分享知识并成为社区的一部分。 然后，利用某人的不安全感来宣传您自己的作品或自己的推文，因此，这实际上完全是以营销的名义。

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We just take ourselves way too seriously in general. We make websites. And somewhere along the lines we developed, like, a god complex in the process. I’ve seen the damage that it does, being in communities with a lot of beginners.

总的来说，我们只是过于认真地对待自己。 我们制作网站。 在此过程中，我们沿着某个路线发展了某个地方，例如，一个复杂的神。 在很多初学者的社区里，我已经看到了它的危害。

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I also notice when women share their projects, for example, there’s always this disclaimer. So they get really excited, and their like I made this thing! And then there’s all these disclaimers, like But it’s not that great. It doesn’t work in Safari. And then it just kinda goes on, and on, and on. Why? Why does that happen? And I think it’s part of this intimidation that this industry has. And it makes people feel bad about themselves.

我还注意到，例如，当女性分享他们的项目时，总是有免责声明。 所以他们真的很兴奋，就像我做的那样！ 然后是所有这些免责声明，例如， 但这并不是那么好。 它在Safari中不起作用 。 然后，它就一直持续下去。 为什么？ 为什么会这样呢？ 而且我认为这是该行业的这种威胁的一部分。 这使人们对自己感到难过。

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When I started out, I was never interested in web design in the traditional sense — like boxes on the screen.

当我刚开始的时候，我从不对传统意义上的Web设计感兴趣，例如屏幕上的盒子。

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There are definitely people who are like This is really silly. What are you gonna do with this? You can’t have a job based on CSS crabs. But they’re actually wrong, because I had people email me, like Oh I saw your CSS crab on CodePen. By the way, I have this project, like what do you think about it? So it definitely did lead to opportunities.

肯定有人喜欢这真是愚蠢。 你打算怎么办？ 您不能基于CSS螃蟹来工作 。 但是它们实际上是错误的，因为有人让我发电子邮件给我，就像我在CodePen上看到您CSS螃蟹一样。 顺便说一下，我有这个项目，例如您如何看待它？ 因此，它确实确实带来了机会。

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of course my thought is like What if I’m wrong? You know, everyone is afraid to be wrong. And then you learn that you, as a student, make the best teacher. As I was learning things I could speak directly to what was especially tricky about something, and that really resonated with people. So I learned that I had to get over my fear of being wrong, and it does happen, and it’s not that bad. So that was a big moment for me to realize.

当然我的想法就像如果我错了怎么办？ 你知道，每个人都害怕犯错。 然后，您了解到自己作为一名学生，是最好的老师。 当我学习事物时，我可以直接说出某些事情特别棘手的问题，这确实引起了人们的共鸣。 因此，我了解到我必须克服对错误的恐惧，而且确实会发生，而且还不错。 所以那是我意识到的重要时刻。

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I think it’s not really fair to present working on the web in a more traditional sense. Because, especially now that I work with kids, they never say they want to be a web designer and create websites, but when you show them animations, that is very exciting. I just let them know there’s only a few foundational pieces you need to learn, and you can do this as well.

我认为以更传统的方式呈现网络工作并不公平。 因为，尤其是在我和孩子们一起工作时，他们从来没有说过要成为一名Web设计师并创建网站，但是当您向他们展示动画时，这非常令人兴奋。 我只是让他们知道，您只需要学习一些基础知识，您也可以做到。

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My first reaction was, No, I’m not gonna do that, because that sounds terrifying. And I always had these moments of like Well, who am I to do that? Who am I to teach people about SVG? And I realized that when something makes me uncomfortable, I have to say yes. And a lot of opportunities in my career have come from that mindset — like doing this podcast!

我的第一React是， 不，我不会那样做，因为那听起来很可怕 。 而我总是有这样的时刻，就像， 好吧，我该做谁？ 我该教谁教SVG ？ 我意识到，当某件事使我不舒服时，我必须说是 。 正是从这种心态中获得了我职业生涯中的很多机会-就像做这个播客一样！

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a lot of the things I write are sort of born out of frustration. With SVG I was just so upset. I desperately wanted to learn this stuff and I couldn’t find any resources that were for complete, absolute beginners. There’s always an assumption of base knowledge with so many resources, and I think going into it without that assumption is huge, and can really impact a lot of people.

我写的很多东西都是出于挫折而诞生的。 有了SVG，我感到非常沮丧。 我非常想学习这些东西，却找不到适合完整的，绝对的初学者的资源。 总是假设拥有这么多资源的基础知识，而我认为没有这种假设就进入基础知识是巨大的，并且确实会影响很多人。

成绩单 (Transcript)

Tim: 蒂姆：

Hey what’s up everybody, this is Tim Evko …

嘿，大家好，我是Tim Evko……

David: 大卫：

… and this is M. David Green …

…这是大卫·格林(M. David Green)…

Tim: 蒂姆：

… and you’re listening to episode number 22 of the Versioning podcast.

…，您正在收听Versioning播客的第22集。

David: 大卫：

This is a place where we get together to discuss the industry of the web from development to design, with some of the people making it happen today, and planning where it’s headed in the next version.

在这里，我们可以聚在一起讨论从开发到设计的网络行业，其中一些人将其付诸实践，并计划下一个版本的发展方向。

Tim: 蒂姆：

So today we are talking with Joni Trythall, who is a web designer, author, conference co-founder, and so many other things — including, as I see on Twitter, quite excellent gluten-free baker.

因此，今天我们正在与乔尼·特里索(Joni Trythall)交谈，他是一名网页设计师，作家，会议联合创始人，还有许多其他事情-包括，正如我在Twitter上看到的那样，是非常出色的无麸质面包师。

So we’re gonna talk about most of those things, if not all of them. Let’s go ahead and get this version started.

因此，我们将谈论其中大多数(如果不是全部)的事情。 让我们继续以启动此版本。

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Joni, thank you so much for joining us today. How are you doing?

乔尼，非常感谢您今天加入我们。 你好吗？

Joni: 乔尼：

I am fantastic. Thank you for inviting me. I’m very excited.

太好了 谢谢你邀请我。 我很激动。

David: 大卫：

I’m really excited about talking about the gluten-free baking and other things. But to start with, since this is the Versioning Show, we usually like to ask our guests a philosophical question to get things started. And our philosophical question for you today is: In your current career, what version are you, and why?

我对谈论无麸质烘焙和其他东西感到非常兴奋。 但是首先，由于这是版本显示，我们通常希望向客人提出一个哲学的问题，以使事情开始。 今天我们对您的哲学问题是：在您当前的职业中，您是哪个版本，为什么？

Joni: 乔尼：

So, I actually knew you were gonna ask this question. So I’m excited that I prepared. The best thing I could come up with honestly was that, my career, and life in general, are like a perpetual beta version. So, I’m trying to figure things out, but constantly finding flaws, and changing features based on user feedback. Yeah, that was my response that I came up with. And I even planned on acting surprised, and then off the cuff just coming up with that. But I’m just gonna be straightforward and admit that I planned that answer.

所以，我实际上知道您会问这个问题。 因此，我为自己的准备感到兴奋。 老实说，我能想到的最好的事情是，我的职业生涯和总体生活就像一个永久的Beta版本。 因此，我试图解决问题，但不断发现缺陷，并根据用户反馈更改功能。 是的，这是我的回应。 而且我什至计划表现出惊讶，然后袖手旁观。 但我只是直截了当，并承认我计划了这个答案。

David: 大卫：

That is perfectly fair, and I think this speaks to something Tim and I were discussing before the show. Tim, you’re right, maybe we need to come up with a new question. People are starting to figure us out.

那是完全公平的，我认为这与蒂姆和我在演出前讨论的内容有关。 蒂姆，你是对的，也许我们需要提出一个新问题。 人们开始发现我们。

Joni: 乔尼：

I really like it! I really like it, so I wouldn’t lose it just because I cheated.

我很喜欢！ 我真的很喜欢，所以我不会因为被骗而失去它。

David: 大卫：

No, that’s fair. So it sounds like you’ve got basically a design-driven life?

不，这很公平。 听起来您基本上拥有设计驱动的生活？

Joni: 乔尼：

Yeah, I guess so. I’ve only been in tech as a designer for a few years — I guess about four years now. So my formal education and my background are in non-profit grant writing. So that’s what I did for several years before I made the change in my late 20s.

我猜就是这样。 我只是从事技术领域的设计师工作了几年-我大概已经有四年了。 因此，我的正规教育和背景是从事非营利性赠款的写作。 因此，这就是我几年来所做的事情，然后才在20多岁的时候进行了更改。

So yeah, I got started — I actually quit grant writing when I had my son, who’s almost five. And I stayed home. And I got very bored, quickly. Babies are very boring. I tell anyone willing to listen! I had always been fairly creative, so I started writing and illustrating children’s books. I had to teach myself Illustrator, which led to me wanting to get those graphics on the web, so I sort of fell face first into HTML, CSS, SVG, and writing about all my adventures and mishaps along the way. That’s sort of how I fell into my first job, years ago.

所以，是的，我开始了–当我有快五岁的儿子时，我实际上退出了赠款写作。 我呆在家里。 我很快就很无聊。 婴儿很无聊。 我告诉任何愿意听的人！ 我一直都很有创造力，所以我开始写和插图儿童读物。 我必须自学Illustrator，这导致我想将这些图形发布到网络上，因此我首先丢下了HTML，CSS，SVG的面纱，并写了我一生中的所有冒险和不幸。 几年前，这就是我成为第一份工作的方式。

Tim: 蒂姆：

So, when you were starting this process of getting into the web — HTML, CSS, SVG — were there parts that you loved about this process? Like how things may have been easy or difficult to learn? Were the parts that you didn’t like? How do you feel about entering into the industry from a beginner’s perspective?

因此，当您开始进入Web的过程时，例如HTML，CSS，SVG，您是否喜欢该过程中的某些部分？ 喜欢事物可能容易或很难学习吗？ 是您不喜欢的零件吗？ 从初学者的角度出发，您对进入该行业有何感想？

Joni [3:26]: 乔尼[3:26] ：

I want people in tech to be better people. Nicer to each other. I’m not a huge fan of the egos and lack of humility that sort of plague the space. So many of us will learn a thing and then declare to everyone that they need to also know that thing right away to continue calling themselves a designer, or a programmer, or a developer. And it’s just sort of bullshit. I mean, there’s sharing knowledge and being part of a community. And then there’s taking advantage of someone’s insecurities to promote your own work or your own tweet, so it’s sort of all in the name of marketing, really.

我希望科技界的人成为更好的人。 彼此更好。 我不是自负的狂热粉丝，也不是那种会困扰整个空间的谦卑的人。 我们中的很多人都会学到东西，然后向所有人宣布他们还需要立即知道该东西，以便继续称自己为设计师，程序员或开发人员。 这只是胡扯。 我的意思是，分享知识并成为社区的一部分。 然后，利用某人的不安全感来宣传您自己的作品或自己的推文，因此，这实际上完全是以营销的名义。

We just take ourselves way too seriously in general. We make websites. And somewhere along the lines we developed, like, a god complex in the process. I’ve seen the damage that it does, being in communities with a lot of beginners. I see the impact that that has on them. Things like speaking at conferences. Everyone is always so curious and wondering why there’s not a lot of newbies — like first time speakers — at conferences. It’s because they’re incredibly intimidated. It’s a lot of the same people who’ve been at it for decades, and when you’re just getting started you get the impression that Oh I also have to have over 10 years of experience to speak at a conference. But that’s just not the case at all. I think it’s important to let people know that and to give them a platform to share their stories and teach other people. I started Ela Conf for a lot of reasons, and that’s definitely one of them.

总的来说，我们只是过于认真地对待自己。 我们制作网站。 在此过程中，我们沿着某个路线发展了某个地方，例如，一个复杂的神。 在很多初学者的社区里，我已经看到了它的危害。 我看到了对他们的影响。 诸如在会议上讲话之类的事情。 每个人总是很好奇，想知道为什么会议上没有那么多的新手，比如第一次演讲。 这是因为它们被吓到了。 从事数十年的人很多，当您刚入门时，就会给人一种印象， 哦，我也必须拥有超过10年的经验才能在会议上发言 。 但这根本不是事实。 我认为，重要的是要让人们知道这一点，并为他们提供一个分享故事和教导他人的平台。 我创立Ela Conf的原因有很多，这绝对是其中之一。

I also notice when women share their projects, for example, there’s always this disclaimer. So they get really excited, and their like I made this thing! And then there’s all these disclaimers, like But it’s not that great. It doesn’t work in Safari. And then it just kinda goes on, and on, and on. Why? Why does that happen? And I think it’s part of this intimidation that this industry has. And it makes people feel bad about themselves.

我还注意到，例如，当女性分享他们的项目时，总是有免责声明。 所以他们真的很兴奋，就像我做的那样！ 然后是所有这些免责声明，例如， 但这并不是那么好。 它在Safari中不起作用 。 然后，它就一直持续下去。 为什么？ 为什么会这样呢？ 而且我认为这是该行业的这种威胁的一部分。 这使人们对自己感到难过。

David: 大卫：

I’m curious, how did that lead you to your work on Ela Conf? And actually, for our listeners who might not be familiar with it, could you tell us a little bit about that?

我很好奇，这是如何导致您从事Ela Conf的工作的？ 实际上，对于可能不熟悉它的听众，您能告诉我们一些吗？

Joni: 乔尼：

Ela Conf is a conference for women. And it’s all about empowering more women to be leaders in tech. So it’s founded by women, and we have women volunteers, women speakers, and women attendees. And it takes place once a year in Philadelphia.

Ela Conf是一个女性会议。 这就是赋予更多女性以科技领导者的能力。 因此它是由女性创立的，我们有女性志愿者，女性演讲者和女性参会者。 它每年在费城举行一次。

I got really lucky in that I discovered things like CodePen, right away. So I was instantly exposed to this really amazing creative community that sort of embraced you and was very beginner friendly. When I started out, I was never interested in web design in the traditional sense — like boxes on the screen. That never interested me. What I was doing is, I was really interested in creating illustrations, like characters with CSS. And so I would do that in public on CodePen. I sort of tricked myself into learning about positioning, because you have to know a lot about positioning to create a CSS crab.

我真的很幸运，因为我马上就发现了CodePen之类的东西。 因此，我立即接触到了这个非常令人赞叹的创意社区，它受到了您的热烈欢迎，并且非常适合初学者。 当我刚开始的时候，我从不对传统意义上的Web设计感兴趣，例如屏幕上的盒子。 那从来没有让我感兴趣。 我正在做的是，我真的很想创建插图，例如CSS字符。 因此，我将在CodePen上公开进行此操作。 我有点欺骗自己学习定位，因为您必须了解很多有关定位的知识才能创建CSS螃蟹 。

There are definitely people who are like This is really silly. What are you gonna do with this? You can’t have a job based on CSS crabs. But they’re actually wrong, because I had people email me, like Oh I saw your CSS crab on CodePen. By the way, I have this project, like what do you think about it? So it definitely did lead to opportunities.

肯定有人喜欢这真是愚蠢。 你打算怎么办？ 您不能基于CSS螃蟹来工作 。 但是它们实际上是错误的，因为有人让我发电子邮件给我，就像我在CodePen上看到您CSS螃蟹一样。 顺便说一下，我有这个项目，例如您如何看待它？ 因此，它确实确实带来了机会。

I really liked the community I was exposed to initially, but it is very intimidating. I got my first job through writing. I was just sort of writing about everything on my blog as I learned it, and that’s a really intimidating first step. Because of course my thought is like What if I’m wrong? You know, everyone is afraid to be wrong. And then you learn that you, as a student, make the best teacher. As I was learning things I could speak directly to what was especially tricky about something, and that really resonated with people. So I learned that I had to get over my fear of being wrong, and it does happen, and it’s not that bad. So that was a big moment for me to realize.

我真的很喜欢最初接触的社区，但是那非常令人生畏。 我通过写作获得了第一份工作。 当我学到博客时 ，我只是在写关于博客上所有内容的文章 ，而这确实是一个令人生畏的第一步。 当然，因为我的想法就像如果我错了怎么办？ 你知道，每个人都害怕犯错。 然后，您了解到自己作为一名学生，是最好的老师。 当我学习事物时，我可以直接说出某些事情特别棘手的问题，这确实引起了人们的共鸣。 因此，我了解到我必须克服对错误的恐惧，而且确实会发生，而且还不错。 所以那是我意识到的重要时刻。

I really loved everything about it. The artistic aspect I think is something that was lost on me initially, but then once I realized the potential there, it was very exciting and very motivating.

我真的很喜欢它的一切。 我认为艺术方面的东西最初是我迷失的，但是一旦我意识到那里的潜力，那将是非常令人兴奋和鼓舞人心的。

David [8:24]: 大卫[8:24] ：

One of the things that strikes me right away when I hear that story is you seem to have a tendency to want to learn out loud, and learn by being public and sharing information.

当我听到这个故事时，立即引起我注意的一件事是，您似乎倾向于大声学习，通过公开分享信息来学习。

Joni: 乔尼：

Yeah! I had mentioned I’d gone to school for a long time. I have a masters degree, and I couldn’t go back to school. I didn’t have a flexible schedule anymore because I had a baby. And I simply couldn’t afford it. I mean I still have student loan debt. And it was just amazing to me, coming from that background of a more traditional education, and now I’m in this space where I can learn anything I want to learn, as quickly as I want to learn it, for free. That was just so incredible to me. It still is incredible to me. And I really wanted to give back to that. Give back to the community that taught me so much.

是的 我曾经提过我上了很长时间的书。 我拥有硕士学位，无法回学校。 因为我有了孩子，所以我的行程安排不再灵活。 而且我根本负担不起。 我的意思是我还有学生贷款债务。 来自更传统的教育背景对我来说真是太神奇了，现在我处在这个空间中，我可以免费学习想要学习的东西。 对我来说真是太不可思议了。 这对我来说仍然是不可思议的。 我真的很想回馈这一点。 回馈给教会了我很多知识的社区。

So that was always really important to me. And then also, on like a more selfish level, it helped me remember the information. When I had to break it down and explain it to a potential newcomer, it helps me retain the information better as well. So it’s mutually beneficial.

因此，这对我始终非常重要。 然后，从一个更自私的角度来看，它帮助我记住了信息。 当我不得不分解并向潜在的新手解释时，它也有助于我更好地保留信息。 因此，这是互惠互利的。

David: 大卫：

It’s interesting that you chose to go with a tool such as CSS, and go with something so non-traditional as a way of learning it. It’s not the approach that I think a lot of people would take. Most people do think of CSS as the boxes and the positioning. I’m curious how you came to it like that?

有趣的是，您选择使用CSS之类的工具，并选择非传统的工具来学习它。 我认为很多人都不会采用这种方法。 大多数人确实将CSS视为盒子和位置。 我很好奇你是怎么这样的？

Joni: 乔尼：

I think it’s because of how I started with graphics, illustrations, and needing to get those on the web, so SVG. It is backwards, and then I learned SVG before I even learned about CSS and HTML. I just learned those things because I had to to do everything I needed to do with my SVGs, which I was especially passionate about. I think it’s just about embracing what you’re interested in and working with that. I think it’s not really fair to present working on the web in a more traditional sense. Because, especially now that I work with kids, they never say they want to be a web designer and create websites, but when you show them animations, that is very exciting. I just let them know there’s only a few foundational pieces you need to learn, and you can do this as well.

我认为这是因为我是从图形，插图开始的，并且需要将它们放在网上，所以是SVG。 它是倒退的，然后我甚至在学习CSS和HTML之前就学习了SVG。 我刚刚学到了这些东西，因为我必须做所有我对SVG充满热情的事情。 我认为这只是拥抱您感兴趣的内容并与之合作。 我认为以更传统的方式呈现网络工作并不公平。 因为，尤其是在我和孩子们一起工作时，他们从来没有说过要成为一名Web设计师并创建网站，但是当您向他们展示动画时，这非常令人兴奋。 我只是让他们知道，您只需要学习一些基础知识，您也可以做到。

So that’s just really what motivated me. It is silly, and people said it was silly. But it’s how I learned.

所以这才是真正激励我的原因。 这很傻，人们说这很傻。 但这就是我学到的。

David: 大卫：

I don’t think that silly’s necessarily a bad thing. That’s one of the ways that we do stimulate our educational minds and keep ourselves interested in what we’re thinking about. So I’m curious if you’re seeing anything about the way kids are learning to approach design and development these days from such a very early age?

我认为傻不一定是一件坏事。 这是我们激发我们的教育思想并使自己对我们正在思考的东西保持兴趣的方式之一。 因此，我很好奇，如果您看到这么小的年龄段的孩子如今正在学习进行设计和开发的方式，您是否感到好奇？

Joni: 乔尼：

It varies so much on the school and the program. I’ve taught classes for, like, robotics programs. And the students are very comfortable with their computers, and they all have MacBooks. And then I’ve taught web design classes for local middle schools. And it’s clear that the students have trouble navigating a keyboard, so I really have to alter the workshop a lot. I can’t make a lot of assumptions about any background knowledge. There’s a lot of changes I have to make for every workshop. Every group is so different.

它在学校和课程中变化很大。 我教过机器人程序等课程。 学生们对他们的计算机非常满意，他们都有MacBooks。 然后，我为本地中学开设了网页设计课程。 显然，学生在操作键盘方面遇到了麻烦，因此我真的不得不进行很多改动。 对于任何背景知识，我都无法做很多假设。 每个研讨会我都需要做很多改变。 每个小组都是如此不同。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I still have some trouble navigating a keyboard too, so. [Laughter] For those students, don’t worry.

我在导航键盘时仍然遇到一些麻烦。 [笑声]对于那些学生，请不要担心。

But regarding teaching, let’s say any of our listeners want to get started with that. You seem to have a lot of experience teaching in several different mediums. How did you get started? How did you find places to teach for and work on curriculums and things like that?

但是关于教学，可以说我们的任何一位听众都想开始学习。 您似乎在使用多种不同的媒体进行教学方面有很多经验。 你是怎么开始的？ 您如何找到课程和类似课程的教学和工作场所？

Joni [12:00]: 乔尼[12:00] ：

I actually got started — I had given a presentation at a Girl Develop It holiday party about an SVG book that I wrote. It was one of the first talks I ever gave, and I was incredibly nervous, and I almost quit a dozen times. But I ended up absolutely loving it. It was so amazing, and that organization has actually been really important in my career. But one of the chapter leads from Girl Develop It, Philadelphia, after the party, approached me about teaching a class on SVG. My first reaction was, No, I’m not gonna do that, because that sounds terrifying. And I always had these moments of like Well, who am I to do that? Who am I to teach people about SVG? And I realized that when something makes me uncomfortable, I have to say yes. And a lot of opportunities in my career have come from that mindset — like doing this podcast! [Laughter]

我实际上是从入门开始的-我在一次Girl Develop It假日聚会上就我写的SVG书作了介绍。 这是我有史以来的第一个演讲，我非常紧张，我几乎退出了十二次。 但是我最终还是完全喜欢它。 真是太了不起了，在我的职业生涯中，组织实际上非常重要。 但是，聚会之后，其中一章的内容来自费城的Girl Develop It，并向我介绍了有关SVG的课程。 我的第一React是， 不，我不会那样做，因为那听起来很可怕 。 而我总是有这样的时刻，就像， 好吧，我该做谁？ 我该教谁教SVG ？ 我意识到，当某件事使我不舒服时，我必须说是 。 正是从这种心态中获得了我职业生涯中的很多机会-就像做这个播客一样！ [笑声]

David: 大卫：

I noticed that you tweeted right before this podcast that you had been asked to do another podcast, even though you swore you’d never do one again, and yet you were going ahead with it!

我注意到您在发此播客之前发了一条推文，要求您做另外一个播客，即使您发誓您永远不会再做一次，但您仍在继续！

Joni: 乔尼：

I always tell people, like, Do stuff you’re uncomfortable with! You’ll find your passion, which mine is teaching! In that spirit I said yes. But, yeah, podcasts for me tend to be kind of awkward.

我总是告诉别人，例如， 做一些您不喜欢的事情！ 您会发现自己的激情，哪一个在教我 ！ 本着这种精神，我说是的。 但是，是的，播客对我来说有点尴尬。

But anyway, getting back to teaching. I said yes, and I did it, and it was completely terrifying. But luckily the curriculum sort of wrote itself, because I had written a book about it. And it was just absolutely incredible. I remember that day perfectly, and it was just this amazing high. Part of it, too, is just the GDI community is so wonderful.

但是无论如何，回到教学。 我说是的，我做到了，这简直是可怕。 但是幸运的是，课程本身就是这样写的，因为我写了一本关于它的书。 这简直是​​不可思议。 我完美地记得那天，那是令人惊讶的高度。 GDI社区是如此的精彩，也是其中的一部分。

From there, I started writing more, and writing more series. And then I had Tuts+ reach out to me about a children’s series, which I was really excited about. So it’s Tuts+ Town, which I eventually turned into a free workshop that I do for local schools.

从那里开始，我开始写更多的东西，并写更多的系列。 然后我让Tuts +向我介绍了一个儿童系列，这让我感到非常兴奋。 所以是Tuts + Town ，我最终变成了我为当地学校开设的免费工作室。

David: 大卫：

So one of the things it makes me think about is you went ahead and you published that with Tuts+, but then you also turned it into something separate for yourself. So you were repurposing the same information for a different audience.

因此，让我思考的一件事是您继续前进，并使用Tuts +发布了该内容，但随后您又将其变成了自己的东西。 因此，您将相同的信息用于不同的受众。

Joni: 乔尼：

Right. One of the things I love about tech is there’s so much important work to be done here. And coming from non-profits, now that I’m in tech, I get paid more, which is fantastic. It lets me do things like conduct workshops for free on occasion. And I just saw a need there. I had nothing of the sort. So, it’s important to me to be able to expose kids to web design and development at an earlier age.

对。 我喜欢技术的一件事是在这里要做很多重要的工作。 来自非营利组织，现在我从事科技行业，我得到的薪水更高，这真是太棒了。 它让我偶尔做一些事情，例如免费举办研讨会。 我在那里看到了需求。 我什么都没有。 因此，对我来说很重要的是能够让孩子们更早地进行网页设计和开发。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Your artistic style is … I don’t know if I can come up with a general word to describe it. It’s like none other I’ve seen before. You take these sort of childlike illustrations and turn them into animated SVGs, and it’s just fun to look at. Where do you get that inspiration from?

你的艺术风格是……我不知道我能否用一个通用的词来形容它。 就像我以前见过的其他人一样。 您可以将这些童趣化的插图转换为动画SVG，并且看起来很有趣。 您从哪里得到灵感？

Joni: 乔尼：

I read a lot of children’s books. I have a five year old, so I find a lot of inspiration in the colors and their use of basic soft shapes. I’ve always been partial to adorable things. Before I actually was illustrating, I painted. So I have lots of really, very silly paintings. I don’t have any anymore. I took them down. Now that I’m over 30 it felt inappropriate. They’re in the basement, they’re very colorful and adorable. I’ve always had some sort of outlet for adorable creatures, and the web is just my current medium for those.

我读了很多儿童读物。 我只有五岁，因此我从颜色及其基本柔和形状的使用中获得了很多灵感。 我向来喜欢可爱的东西。 在我实际进行绘画之前，我画过画。 所以我有很多非常非常愚蠢的画。 我没有了 我把它们取下来了。 现在我已经30岁了，这感觉不合适了。 他们在地下室，非常多彩和可爱。 我一直都喜欢可爱的生物，而网络只是我目前的媒介。

David: 大卫：

Speaking as somebody who’s well over 30, I think you’re going to want those back soon.

以30岁以上的人的身份发言，我认为您很快就会想要那些。

Joni: 乔尼：

I’m glad I didn’t throw them away.

我很高兴我没有把它们扔掉。

David: 大卫：

Absolutely. It’s actually very nice to hear about the ability to blend web technology and adorable.

绝对。 听到将Web技术与可爱的功能融为一体的消息，我感到非常高兴。

Joni [16:00]: 乔尼[16:00] ：

Yeah! It has a place, and I think we can take ourselves too seriously a lot of the time.

是的 它占有一席之地，我认为我们很多时候都可以把自己当回事。

David: 大卫：

Well with the style that you bring to what you do, I can understand why you were attracted to SVG. I’m curious what other technologies have really caught your interest?

凭借您带来的工作风格，我可以理解为什么您被SVG所吸引。 我很好奇其他什么技术真正引起了您的兴趣？

Joni: 乔尼：

I guess I’ve been sort of like a generalist my entire career, and I sort of never see that changing. And I get asked a lot like, What do you want to focus on? What do you wish you focused on from the beginning? And I don’t ever have an answer for that. Because I don’t know how you’d figure out what you want to do unless you try everything. I’m just sort of stuck in that try everything mode. So right now I’m very much more on the front end side of things. And I find myself becoming less and less interested in the actually technology, and more interested in how to better my communication skills, for example. I feel that that serves me better as a designer than learning any single technology to the point where I would consider myself an expert, or whatever that would mean.

我想我在整个职业生涯中都像通才一样，而且我从未见过这种变化。 我经常被问到， 您想关注什么？ 您希望从一开始就专注于什么？ 我对此没有答案。 因为除非您尝试一切，否则我不知道您怎么想知道要做什么。 我只是陷入了尝试一切模式的困境。 因此，现在我更多地关注事物的前端。 例如，我发现自己对实际技术越来越不感兴趣，而对如何改善我的沟通技巧越来越感兴趣。 我觉得这对我作为设计师来说要比学习任何一种技术要好得多，以至于我认为自己是专家，或者意味着什么。

David: 大卫：

There’s no question communication’s a big part of career development in any field, and I think in technology in particular. People find it more challenging because people are so used to working one-on-one with the computer, rather than across.

毫无疑问，在任何领域，沟通都是职业发展的重要组成部分，我认为特别是在技术领域。 人们发现它更具挑战性，因为人们习惯于与计算机一对一地工作，而不是跨计算机地工作。

Joni: 乔尼：

Right, exactly. And it’s especially difficult on remote teams, which I’ve actually only ever worked remotely while in tech.

是的，完全正确。 对于远程团队来说，这尤其困难，实际上我在技术团队中只能远程工作。

David: 大卫：

So how have you dealt with that kind of challenge?

那么您如何应对这种挑战？

Joni: 乔尼：

It’s very hard. I’m good at it now, but I wasn’t for years. I was really bad at it. When I got started, I was living in a really secluded area. I was in South Dakota. And so, working in an office just wasn’t an option. And I needed the flexibility — I mean I absolutely cherish the flexibility. So I spent a lot of time initially getting up and sorting my sock drawer in the middle of the day, because I just had to do it. And that is just not sustainable at all. So yeah, it’s just about having designated office hours. That’s really been huge for me, having my own space. I used to work in the living room or the dining room, and that doesn’t work at all — for me, anyway.

这很难。 我现在很擅长，但是我已经好几年了。 我真的很不好 一开始，我就住在一个僻静的地方。 我在南达科他州。 因此，在办公室工作不是一种选择。 我需要灵活性-我的意思是我绝对珍惜灵活性。 因此，起初我花了很多时间起床并在一天的中午对我的袜子抽屉进行分类，因为我只需要这样做。 那根本是不可持续的。 是的，这只是指定的办公时间。 拥有我自己的空间，对我来说真的是非常巨大的。 我曾经在客厅或饭厅里工作，那对我来说根本不起作用。

And then constant communication with your team. I’ve been on teams that are not fans of video calls, and I found that to be very isolating. It’s really easy to lose sight of the fact that you work with human beings when you’re just, like, typing at people in Slack all day. And then video calls of course help remind you of that, remind you that you need to be nice to each other. So there’s just little things like that that I learned about myself. We’re doing video right now and I really appreciate that. It’s so much easier to converse and relate.

然后与您的团队不断沟通。 我曾经参加过不喜欢视频通话的团队，但发现这非常孤立。 当您整天在Slack中打字时，很容易忘记与人一起工作的事实。 然后，视频通话当然会提醒您这一点，提醒您彼此之间要保持友善。 因此，我了解到的东西很少。 我们现在正在制作视频，对此我非常感谢。 交流和联系起来要容易得多。

David: 大卫：

That’s right. For the listeners who don’t know, we always record these podcasts with video to create a sense of intimacy with the guest, even though we don’t usually share the videos.

那就对了。 对于不认识的听众，尽管我们通常不分享视频，但我们总是将这些播客与视频一起录制，以营造与来宾的亲密感。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yes, both David and I have faces, but you might not have known that. We do. We’re real people.

是的，大卫和我都有面Kong，但您可能不知道。 我们的确是。 我们是真实的人。

Joni: 乔尼：

They’re nice faces.

他们是好面Kong。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Oh thank you.

哦谢谢。

David: 大卫：

A face for podcasting.

播客的面Kong。

Joni: 乔尼：

And it’s important for reading facial expressions! If I’m on a regular call and I say something super weird and everyone’s thinking about how weird it is, I can’t see on their face that they think it’s super weird, so I’ll just keep going on and on.

这对于读取面部表情很重要！ 如果我按常规通话，并且说的话很奇怪，而且每个人都在想这有多怪异，那么在他们的脸上我看不到他们认为这很怪异，所以我会继续讲下去。

David: 大卫：

I’m sure you’ve enjoyed the shocked and horrified expressions coming across our faces throughout this whole podcast.

我相信您在整个播客中都喜欢我们脸上震惊和恐惧的表情。

Joni: 乔尼：

Exactly. [Laughs]

究竟。 [笑]

David: 大卫：

The other things that you’re doing, you’re putting together all of these training materials in addition to the actually work you’re doing with design. You’re putting out all of these training materials, and I’m interested in what kind of feedback you’re getting for the materials you’re putting out there?

您正在做的其他事情是，除了在设计中实际进行的工作之外，还将所有这些培训材料整理在一起。 您正在发布所有这些培训材料，并且我对您在那里发布的材料会收到什么样的反馈感兴趣？

Joni [19:46]: 乔尼[19:46] ：

I’ve always written about my journey because that’s what I was really comfortable with. Because as a grant writer, working in the non-profit space, that’s what I did every day. I wrote stories. It’s what I was comfortable doing, it’s sort of how I best expressed myself.

我一直在写我的旅程，因为那是我真正感到满意的东西。 因为作为一名赠款撰稿人，我在非盈利领域工作，所以我每天都会这样做。 我写故事。 这是我很自在的事情，这是我最好地表达自己的方式。

Initially, on my blog, I just wrote for myself, really. Sort of documenting my journey. I didn’t think anyone was reading, and they weren’t. I had analytics. I know no one was reading. And that was totally fine, because that’s not why I was doing it. But eventually, people did start reading, and eventually I got invited to write for places like DesignModo and SitePoint, and that was a big step for me in my career.

最初，我确实是在博客上为自己写的。 记录我的旅程。 我认为没有人在读书，但他们没有。 我有分析。 我知道没人在读书。 那完全没问题，因为那不是我这样做的原因。 但是最终，人们确实开始阅读，最终我受邀为诸如DesignModo和SitePoint之类的地方写书 ，这对我的职业生涯而言是一大进步。

There are always people who are going to have negative things to say about anything you put out there. You’re very vulnerable to put yourself out there in front of so many people. But overwhelmingly the responses are great. And people will constantly say, you know, especially about the SVG book. You know, something like a book, about how much it helped them and how they really appreciated a resource that was beginner friendly. I don’t know if I should admit this, but a lot of the things I write are sort of born out of frustration. With SVG I was just so upset. I desperately wanted to learn this stuff and I couldn’t find any resources that were for complete, absolute beginners. There’s always an assumption of base knowledge with so many resources, and I think going into it without that assumption is huge, and can really impact a lot of people.

总会有人对您在这里发表的任何事情持负面看法。 您很容易在很多人面前屈服。 但是绝大多数情况下，React都很好。 人们会经常说，尤其是有关SVG的书。 您知道，就像一本书一样，它对他们有多大帮助，以及他们如何真正欣赏对初学者友好的资源。 我不知道我是否应该承认这一点，但是我写的很多东西都是出于挫折而诞生的。 有了SVG，我感到非常沮丧。 我非常想学习这些东西，却找不到适合完整的，绝对的初学者的资源。 总是假设拥有这么多资源的基础知识，而我认为没有这种假设就进入基础知识是巨大的，并且确实会影响很多人。

Tim: 蒂姆：

I specifically remember angrily tweeting you questions about SVG and you answering them immediately. So if I haven’t thanked you before for that, thank you again.

我特别记得很生气地在推特上发给您有关SVG的问题，并立即回答了他们。 因此，如果我之前从未为此表示感谢，请再次感谢您。

Joni: 乔尼：

Oh, you’re welcome!

哦，不客气！

David: 大卫：

It’s terrific to put that stuff out there. And in particular, people forget there’s always somebody out there who knows a little less than you do about the thing that you’re learning. And no matter how basic the thing you want to teach is, there’s somebody out there who wants to learn it at that level and the way that you communicate is a very important part of it. And coming from a background as a writer, I think you’ve got a strong background for doing that sort of thing.

把这些东西放在那里真是太好了。 特别是，人们会忘记那里总是有人对您所学的知识比您了解的少。 而且，无论您要教的东西有多基本，都有一个人想要在那个水平上学习它，而您的交流方式是其中非常重要的一部分。 来自作家的背景，我认为您具有从事此类工作的强大背景。

Joni: 乔尼：

Yeah. It’s important to remember if something is hard for you, it’s going to be hard for a lot of other people. So if you figure it out, a lot of people are going to appreciate you explaining it.

是的 重要的是要记住，如果某些事情对您来说很困难，那么对于其他许多人来说这将是困难的。 因此，如果您弄清楚了，很多人会很感激您的解释。

I made one resource when I was learning Flexbox. It’s like a cheat sheet. And I almost didn’t publish it, because I sort of made it for myself, because it was really hard for me to wrap my mind around this stuff. I showed it to a few people and they were like This is really weird. So I’m like, Yeah I guess it is kind of weird, but I was referencing it so often it just didn’t feel right to keep it to myself. Even if a couple people find it useful, then why not put it out there? What’s the harm? That’s sort of my motivation for open-sourcing the book that I wrote, it’s sort of in that same mindset. It just didn’t seem right for me to have just struggled learning this stuff, and creating a resource because I couldn’t find one, and then making that resource not super accessible. It just didn’t seem like the right thing to do, so I open-sourced that and made that available for free.

在学习Flexbox时，我只提供了一种资源。 就像备忘单一样。 而且我几乎没有出版它，因为我自己为它做了，因为我真的很难全神贯注于这些东西。 我把它展示给几个人，他们就像这真的很奇怪 。 所以我想， 是的，我想这有点怪异 ，但我经常引用它，只是觉得不适合自己保留它。 即使有几个人觉得它有用，那为什么不把它放在那里呢？ 有什么害处？ 这是我将自己写的书开放源代码的动力，也是出于同样的想法。 对于我来说，仅仅努力学习这些东西并创建资源是不合适的，因为我找不到一个资源，然后使该资源无法超级访问。 看起来似乎不应该做正确的事，所以我将其开源并免费提供。

Tim: 蒂姆：

You’ve done a lot of really interesting and exciting things in your career. Is there anything specifically that you were looking at next? Any sort of exciting, cool, fun plans?

您在职业生涯中做了很多非常有趣和令人兴奋的事情。 您接下来要看的内容是否特别？ 有什么令人兴奋，酷，有趣的计划吗？

Joni: 乔尼：

This year I have a couple new workshops I would like to create. Also we have Ela Conf. We actually take a break after Ela Conf. So that was in November. And we take a break, we give ourselves a few months to not think about it all, so I’m breaking the rule right now, thinking about it. So we’re going to have to have a meeting about that soon, talk about Ela Conf 2017. I learned that planning a one day event — one and a half day event — takes 365 days. We’d have to start planning that soon. Those are the things I have slated for this year.

今年，我要创建几个新的工作室。 我们也有Ela Conf。 实际上，我们在Ela Conf之后休息了一下。 那是在十一月。 我们休息了一会，我们花了几个月的时间不去考虑这一切，所以我现在正在违反规则，正在考虑它。 因此，我们很快将不得不召开一次会议，谈论Ela Conf2017。我了解到，计划一天的活动(一天半的活动)需要365天。 我们必须尽快开始计划。 这些是我今年要安排的​​事情。

David [24:12]: 大卫[24:12] ：

That’s very cool. I’m sure that our listeners are gonna want to find out how to find you online, how do get in touch. How can people find you?

太酷了。 我敢肯定，我们的听众会想了解如何在线找到您，如何取得联系。 人们如何找到您？

Joni: 乔尼：

I spend too much time on Twitter, so that’s @jonitrythall. And my blog is JoniBologna.com.

我在Twitter上花费了太多时间，所以就是@jonitrythall 。 我的博客是JoniBologna.com 。

David: 大卫：

Very cool. And it’s Joni Trythall, T-R-Y-T-H-A-L-L, right?

很酷。 是乔尼·Trythall，TRYTHALL，对吗？

Joni: 乔尼：

That’s correct, yes.

是的，是的。

David: 大卫：

Fantastic. Well thank you so much for joining us on the Versioning Show.

太棒了 好，非常感谢您加入我们的Versioning Show。

Joni: 乔尼：

Thank you!

谢谢！

---

---

Tim: 蒂姆：

So first off, if you have not seen any of Joni’s artwork, definitely go and check that out. You will have a great time. I think adorable is just the way to describe it in general.

所以首先，如果您还没有看过Joni的任何艺术品，一定要去看看。 您将度过美好的时光。 我认为可爱只是描述它的一种方式。

David: 大卫：

And I like that Joni was comfortable really going there and talking about her experiences coming into the community as a beginner. So many people ignore that beginner experience and how important it is to be welcomed into the community, and to find a place where you feel comfortable with what you’re doing. What she was doing was so outside the box, literally — outside the positioning of CSS boxes — and yet it spoke specifically to her and her own background, and her interests. And she just went with it and did something that she felt comfortable with, and put it out there. I love to hear stories about people who do things like that.

我喜欢乔尼(Joni)真的很乐意去那里谈论她作为初学者进入社区的经历。 许多人无视这种初学者的体验，以及被社区欢迎以及找到适合自己做事的地方是多么重要。 她的所作所为实际上是在盒子外面，实际上是在CSS盒子的位置之外，然而，这完全符合她和她自己的背景以及她的兴趣。 然后她就随手去做了一些令她感到满意的事情，然后把它放在那里。 我喜欢听到有关做这种事情的人的故事。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, it’s interesting, because although her case isn’t completely unique to the experiences we’ve heard. I mean she’s someone who went and got a master’s degree in I guess you would call it non-technical writing. Writing documents for non-profits. What did she say they were? Story grants? I’m not really familiar with the industry in itself, but basically nothing related to tech, really. Not at all. And you know, going so far into that career field and then transitioning from there, which I can imagine has to be a terrifying prospect. But she did it, she made it work, and she is excellent at it. It’s really great to know that it’s possible for people to do.

是的，这很有趣，因为尽管她的案子并非我们所听到的经历完全独特。 我的意思是，她是一个去过并获得硕士学位的人，我想您会把它称为非技术写作。 为非营利组织撰写文件。 她说他们是什么？ 故事补助金？ 我对这个行业本身并不真正熟悉，但实际上与技术无关。 一点也不。 而且您知道，深入到该职业领域然后从那里过渡，我可以想象这将是一个可怕的前景。 但是她做到了，让它起作用了，并且她很擅长。 知道人们有可能做的事真是太好了。

David: 大卫：

And at any stage in their careers, too. It’s not something that’s easy or comfortable to do when you are young and single and don’t have children. And to do it when you’ve already gotten a career, and you’ve already had experience, and you’ve already built up certain expectations for your lifestyle, and then you also have added responsibilities in your life. To be able to stop that whole career path and just say I’m starting in a new direction and I am going to do it by making adorable cartoon characters in SVG. I mean, you gotta give her credit for that.

而且在他们职业生涯的任何阶段。 当您年轻，单身且没有孩子时，这不是一件容易或舒适的事情。 并在已经有职业，已经有经验并且已经对生活方式建立了某些期望的情况下做到这一点，然后在生活中也增加了责任。 为了能够停止整个职业生涯，只是说我正在一个新的方向，我将通过用SVG制作可爱的卡通角色来实现它 。 我的意思是，你必须为此而赞扬她。

Tim: 蒂姆：

Broke all the rules, and succeeded.

打破了所有规则，成功了。

David: 大卫：

Absolutely. As I mentioned to her, and as I keep on seeing, some of the people who impress me the most are the ones like Joni, who choose to learn by going out and sharing their information, and by going out and going to the community. And becoming a part of the community and putting things out there, instead of just sitting, and reading, and listening, and taking from the community, and then hiding it away in their little corner somewhere until they’ve figured that they’ve become the expert — at which point they can simply close their coffins and go away.

绝对。 正如我对她所说，并且不断看到的那样，一些给我印象最深的人就是乔尼(Joni)，他们选择外出和分享他们的信息，并外出去社区学习。 并成为社区的一部分并将事物摆在那里，而不是仅仅坐着，阅读，聆听并从社区中拿走，然后将其隐藏在他们的小角落里，直到他们发现自己已经成为专家-此时，他们只需关闭棺材即可离开。

Tim: 蒂姆：

And it’s interesting because, reflecting on the past year, being that right now as we’re recording this, it’s the beginning of 2017. I started to write a lot in the beginning of 2016, and then I sort of tapered a little bit from there. And I’ve started to realize a little bit in my case that I really need to schedule the writing and the sharing of knowledge, which I think I’ve realized I have the responsibility to share the knowledge that I have, because I’ve learned in the same way that so many others have. You know, via free information off of the internet without paying a cent for it. So I’ve started to realize that I really should make it a priority to write and share information, but it doesn’t naturally come just out of the blue, like Oh here’s a perfect idea to write something, let me just go do that now because I have the free time for it.

这很有趣，因为回顾过去的一年，就在我们录制此曲的那一刻起，那是2017年初。我在2016年初开始写很多东西，然后我从那里。 我已经开始意识到我确实需要安排写作和知识共享，我认为我已经意识到我有责任分享我所拥有的知识，因为我已经像其他许多人一样学习。 您知道，通过免费的互联网信息，无需为此付出任何代价。 因此，我开始意识到，我确实应该将编写和共享信息作为工作的重中之重，但这并不是自然而然的，就像哦，这是写东西的绝妙主意，让我去做吧现在因为我有空闲时间 。

I need to be a lot more structured because, well, I got a new job. Work is very busy, I have deadlines. I have to come home and make dinner and do this podcast, and do all these different things. But I think I’ve started to realize at this stage in my career, number one, I have the responsibility to share that information. And number two, I need to really be scheduled and timely about it.

我需要更加结构化，因为我得到了一份新工作。 工作很忙，我有最后期限。 我必须回家吃晚饭，做这个播客，然后做所有这些不同的事情。 但是我认为我已经开始意识到在职业生涯的第一阶段，我有责任分享这些信息。 第二，我需要真正安排好时间并及时安排。

David [28:18]: 大卫[28:18] ：

It’s interesting, the way that Joni was talking about it. She was talking for example about her Flexbox piece, and how it was just something she was answering somebody’s question, and she realized that she put together something that she could share and that other people could benefit from. And then that seemed to lead her down the path of I should open source my book, because I want people to learn from the things that I’ve learned, and I want to share that information out there.

有趣的是，乔尼(Joni)谈论它的方式。 例如，她在谈论自己的Flexbox作品，以及如何回答别人的问题，她意识到自己整理了一些可以分享的东西，其他人也可以从中受益。 然后，这似乎使她走上了我应该开放我的书的道路，因为我希望人们从我学到的东西中学习，并且我想在那里分享这些信息 。

It’s interesting because, as you say, it’s not something that comes naturally to us. We have to make time in our careers to do that sharing. And yet, it’s so beneficial to put something out there. I was thinking back, again — as you said, this being the beginning of 2017 for us — I was thinking back to my career. 2014 was when I decided I was going to start publishing articles. And then 2015 I was going to write something. And then 2016 was my year to podcast. Getting on these regular schedules, as you say, is really an important part of it. And the podcasting has been great for me, because it’s gotten me on a regular schedule of putting information out in front of people. And I’m actually starting to think about what 2017 is going to mean in that regard.

这很有趣，因为正如您所说，这并不是我们自然而然的事情。 我们必须在事业中抽出时间来进行共享。 但是，在此放置一些东西是如此有益。 我正想着-正如您所说，对我们来说这是2017年初-我正在想着我的职业生涯。 2014年是我决定开始发表文章的时候。 然后在2015年，我要写点东西。 然后2016年是我播客的一年。 正如您所说，遵守这些常规时间表确实是其中的重要组成部分。 And the podcasting has been great for me, because it's gotten me on a regular schedule of putting information out in front of people. And I'm actually starting to think about what 2017 is going to mean in that regard.

Tim: 蒂姆：

Yeah, there’s a lot to think about. And by the way, if you are interested in writing, you can do that for SitePoint. You can contact them, and now that I’ve mentioned it it’s going to magically appear in our show notes. You can contact them with ideas that you might have, and they will get back to you. SitePoint is a wonderful organization to publish for. It is how I got started in writing. Go and do that if you’re interested.

Yeah, there's a lot to think about. And by the way, if you are interested in writing, you can do that for SitePoint. You can contact them , and now that I've mentioned it it's going to magically appear in our show notes. You can contact them with ideas that you might have, and they will get back to you. SitePoint is a wonderful organization to publish for. It is how I got started in writing. Go and do that if you're interested.

David: 大卫：

And if your particular expertise is not something that SitePoint wants to focus on, there are other places to put your information out there. And you can blog. And you can put your information out through your own seminars and workshops. Or just talk, put something out there for people to learn who are interested in the subjects you are interested in, even if what you’re interested in is making animation through CSS by creating adorable little creatures. There’s an audience out there.

And if your particular expertise is not something that SitePoint wants to focus on, there are other places to put your information out there. And you can blog. And you can put your information out through your own seminars and workshops. Or just talk, put something out there for people to learn who are interested in the subjects you are interested in, even if what you're interested in is making animation through CSS by creating adorable little creatures. There's an audience out there.

Tim: 蒂姆：

As a matter of fact, I’ve learned that most organizations do not care if you cold email them with a request to just write for their website or blog, or what have you. Most of them respond either a yes or no, and thanks for the inquiry. And that’s that. And most of the time you’ll get a new place where you can send some of your writings, and maybe even get compensated for it. So don’t be timid in that regard. If you have something to write, just broadcast it and see who’s interested.

As a matter of fact, I've learned that most organizations do not care if you cold email them with a request to just write for their website or blog, or what have you. Most of them respond either a yes or no, and thanks for the inquiry. And that's that. And most of the time you'll get a new place where you can send some of your writings, and maybe even get compensated for it. So don't be timid in that regard. If you have something to write, just broadcast it and see who's interested.

David: 大卫：

Yeah, that’s actually one of the wonderful things about the web. Those people do not have a limitation in terms of the amount of information that they can publish, because their databases are huge, the internet is unlimited. It won’t get stuck in the tubes. It’s gonna go out there to people. Although, as a professional writer, it’s important to get paid what you’re worth for the work that you’re doing. When you’re starting out, there is value to getting your information in front of people, and starting to get that kind of feedback.

Yeah, that's actually one of the wonderful things about the web. Those people do not have a limitation in terms of the amount of information that they can publish, because their databases are huge, the internet is unlimited. It won't get stuck in the tubes. It's gonna go out there to people. Although, as a professional writer, it's important to get paid what you're worth for the work that you're doing. When you're starting out, there is value to getting your information in front of people, and starting to get that kind of feedback.

Tim: 蒂姆：

So another thing that Joni touched on was something she wasn’t super crazy about in the industry, which I very much agree with, and I think number one on her list was a lack of humility. I mean, you and I David are two of the most humble people, right, so we definitely don’t suffer from this problem. [Chuckles]

So another thing that Joni touched on was something she wasn't super crazy about in the industry, which I very much agree with, and I think number one on her list was a lack of humility. I mean, you and I David are two of the most humble people, right, so we definitely don't suffer from this problem. [笑声]

David: 大卫：

I think you and I are the two most humble people on this podcast.

I think you and I are the two most humble people on this podcast.

Tim: 蒂姆：

That’s very true.

没错

David: 大卫：

Right now.

马上。

Tim: 蒂姆：

We should get some sort of plaque or badge for that, or both, honestly. But that being said, we’ve actually spoken a lot about humility and how it plays into being a better developer and a better person in general. I believe when we spoke about what it is that makes a good software developer, or engineer, or person who works in tech in general, I think at least humility was number one on my list.

We should get some sort of plaque or badge for that, or both, honestly. But that being said, we've actually spoken a lot about humility and how it plays into being a better developer and a better person in general. I believe when we spoke about what it is that makes a good software developer, or engineer, or person who works in tech in general, I think at least humility was number one on my list.

David: 大卫：

It’s easy to forget the importance of that, because it doesn’t affect you; it affects the people around you. And one of the things that we forget when we’re working in tech is that nothing really happens that’s isolated to one individual. Even the most solo programmer out there who’s stamping out code and publishing things under their own name, that person is still building on the development that came before, and building on earlier projects, and elevating the code that came before to a new level with an new perspective. Nobody really works in that isolated bubble. Everybody really is working together.

It's easy to forget the importance of that, because it doesn't affect you; it affects the people around you. And one of the things that we forget when we're working in tech is that nothing really happens that's isolated to one individual. Even the most solo programmer out there who's stamping out code and publishing things under their own name, that person is still building on the development that came before, and building on earlier projects, and elevating the code that came before to a new level with an new perspective. Nobody really works in that isolated bubble. Everybody really is working together.

Tim [32:16]: Tim [32:16] :

And I would definitely like to see and come to the whole You’re not a real developer if you don’t do X, Y, or Z. OK, I’m gonna raise my hand here, I don’t know what a real developer is. Let’s start there. I get paid to put stuff onto the internet. If that is what a web developer is, then I guess I am one. But there are a number of way to do that. You can copy and paste stuff. You can write your own stuff. You can use frameworks and libraries. You can build an entire application without knowing what the bind function does, or what recursion is, or how exactly a closure works. You can, and people do build entire applications without knowing those things. It helps to know those things, but to say someone is not a real developer if they don’t know something that someone else might consider a fundamental I think is a little elitist.

And I would definitely like to see and come to the whole You're not a real developer if you don't do X, Y, or Z . OK, I'm gonna raise my hand here, I don't know what a real developer is. 让我们从这里开始。 I get paid to put stuff onto the internet. If that is what a web developer is, then I guess I am one. But there are a number of way to do that. You can copy and paste stuff. You can write your own stuff. You can use frameworks and libraries. You can build an entire application without knowing what the bind function does, or what recursion is, or how exactly a closure works. You can, and people do build entire applications without knowing those things. It helps to know those things, but to say someone is not a real developer if they don't know something that someone else might consider a fundamental I think is a little elitist.

David: 大卫：

Well I’ve heard people say that you’re not a real developer if you use languages that don’t type-define their variables. I’ve heard people say you’re not a real developer if you use Ruby. I’ve heard people say you’re not a real developer if you don’t get paid for what you’re doing. And personally, there was a time when I got paid for developing code. Right now, I don’t believe I’ve been paid for code that I’ve written for at least 2 years. That’s not saying that I won’t be again, but am I not a real developer?

Well I've heard people say that you're not a real developer if you use languages that don't type-define their variables. I've heard people say you're not a real developer if you use Ruby. I've heard people say you're not a real developer if you don't get paid for what you're doing. And personally, there was a time when I got paid for developing code. Right now, I don't believe I've been paid for code that I've written for at least 2 years. That's not saying that I won't be again, but am I not a real developer?

Tim: 蒂姆：

There you go. So I think both of us are simultaneously not a real developer and a real developer at the same time. It’s a quantum paradox.

妳去 So I think both of us are simultaneously not a real developer and a real developer at the same time. It's a quantum paradox.

David: 大卫：

Schrodinger’s developer.

Schrodinger's developer.

Tim: 蒂姆：

There you go. But at the end of the day, Joni is 100% right, again. That is just a thing that doesn’t make sense. The industry is too vast and there is too much going on to split hairs over what makes a real developer or not. Don’t do that, don’t be that person.

妳去 But at the end of the day, Joni is 100% right, again. That is just a thing that doesn't make sense. The industry is too vast and there is too much going on to split hairs over what makes a real developer or not. Don't do that, don't be that person.

David: 大卫：

Don’t let the intimidation about whether or not you’re a real developer stop you from doing the things that Joni is doing, which includes publishing articles, publishing conference talks, going and speaking at events, teaching classes, sharing the information that you have. You know what you know. There’s somebody out there who can benefit from it. Go share that information. It is, as Joni said, it’s your responsibility.

Don't let the intimidation about whether or not you're a real developer stop you from doing the things that Joni is doing, which includes publishing articles, publishing conference talks, going and speaking at events, teaching classes, sharing the information that you have. You know what you know. There's somebody out there who can benefit from it. Go share that information. It is, as Joni said, it's your responsibility.

Tim: 蒂姆：

And to reiterate all of this, what we’re doing here, this podcast, our work outside of it in general, it’s all about just putting the stuff onto the web that we want to see. Nothing more, nothing less. In my spare time I’m building a dumb game right now. It’s sort of Battleship and it’s terrible. But that’s it! I mean I want to see this thing on the web. When I’m on the train it works offline so I can just fool around with this dumb thing that I’m wasting internet bytes with. That’s it! I just want to get this thing there, on the web, and that’s what web development is.

And to reiterate all of this, what we're doing here, this podcast, our work outside of it in general, it's all about just putting the stuff onto the web that we want to see. 仅此而已。 In my spare time I'm building a dumb game right now. It's sort of Battleship and it's terrible. But that's it! I mean I want to see this thing on the web. When I'm on the train it works offline so I can just fool around with this dumb thing that I'm wasting internet bytes with. 而已！ I just want to get this thing there, on the web, and that's what web development is.

David: 大卫：

Yup, it’s about putting the things out there. I think I’ve mentioned before, I did that little project to take old books and switch the genders of all the main characters over the Christmas holidays. I released a free audiobook on the Transconcieve Project, of the entire reading of A Christmas Carol, Transconcieved. I just wanted to put it out there. I wanted it to be there and available for people who wanted to hear what it would sound like if this book by Charles Dickens had been written in a way that the characters had switched genders. What would that mean to the characters and what would that mean to your interpretation of it? I just wanted it out there and I wanted to put it out there.

Yup, it's about putting the things out there. I think I've mentioned before, I did that little project to take old books and switch the genders of all the main characters over the Christmas holidays. I released a free audiobook on the Transconcieve Project , of the entire reading of A Christmas Carol , Transconcieved. I just wanted to put it out there. I wanted it to be there and available for people who wanted to hear what it would sound like if this book by Charles Dickens had been written in a way that the characters had switched genders. What would that mean to the characters and what would that mean to your interpretation of it? I just wanted it out there and I wanted to put it out there.

Tim: 蒂姆：

I kind of want to read some of that, now that you’ve described it. It sounds very interesting.

I kind of want to read some of that, now that you've described it. It sounds very interesting.

David: 大卫：

Well, you can listen to the audiobook if you like, or download the PDF.

Well, you can listen to the audiobook if you like, or download the PDF.

Okay that was very self promoting. [Laughs]

Okay that was very self promoting. [笑]

Tim: 蒂姆：

I think we’ve got an episode.

I think we've got an episode.

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Thank you so much for listening everybody. We always enjoy getting to talk technology with all of you.

Thank you so much for listening everybody. 我们总是喜欢与大家交谈技术。

David: 大卫：

We would also like to thank SitePoint.com, and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat, with production help from Ralph Mason. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @versioningshow — and give us a rating on iTunes to let us know how we’re doing.

我们还要感谢SitePoint.com以及我们的制作人Adam Roberts和Ophelie Lechat，以及Ralph Mason的制作帮助。 请随时在Twitter( @versioningshow)上向我们发送您的评论，并在iTunes上给我们评分 ，让我们知道我们的情况。

Tim: 蒂姆：

We’ll see you next time, and we hope you enjoyed this version.

下次见，我们希望您喜欢这个版本。

翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/learning-html-css-and-svg-and-facing-your-fears-with-joni-trythall/